Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Domthemilky on January 04, 2012, 06:35:31 AM
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Which is more effective in the long run for developing shoulder strength and size? I have always found that push press helps bring up my shoulders but more importantly helps increase lockout strength so I can lift heavier on other pressing exercises. Do push presses with controlled negatives induce shoulder hypertrophy? It's very hard to get stronger with military pressing when you get to around bodyweight but then again I always do military press standing never seated.
As an example, which would be more effective; doing 8 hard reps with 60 kg with military press or doing 10 reps with 100 kg performing a push press with slow negatives?
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serge nubret used 80 to 100 lbs ffor military presses so if your goal is muscle developement......
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Which is more effective in the long run for developing shoulder strength and size? I have always found that push press helps bring up my shoulders but more importantly helps increase lockout strength so I can lift heavier on other pressing exercises. Do push presses with controlled negatives induce shoulder hypertrophy? It's very hard to get stronger with military pressing when you get to around bodyweight but then again I always do military press standing never seated.
As an example, which would be more effective; doing 8 hard reps with 60 kg with military press or doing 10 reps with 100 kg performing a push press with slow negatives?
why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press
you wont get any big numbers up until you do them seated tho
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I have always liked the standing military presses over the push presses. I don't think there is a better excercise out there for delt development. :P :P
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why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press
you wont get any big numbers up until you do them seated tho
why do you think that?
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why do you think that?
you can brace yourself against the back of the seat and arch creating more of a high incline angle to the exercise and throw some upper chest into it, the increased stability and leverage equals bigger weights.
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[quote author=QuakerOats link=topic=4
you can brace yourself against the back of the seat and arch creating more of a high incline angle to the exercise and throw some upper chest into it, the increased stability and leverage equals bigger weights.
[/quote]
ok but a military press is from behind the neck so while arching your chest forward you compress your mid and lower back, the mid back spine having limited flexibility. I can see its worth as having a spring momentup to push that weight up but then its the back erector muscles that do much of the work.
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The Push press is where the bar is resting on the heals of the hand, with the thumbs back where the fingers are (quite a few heavy benchers prefer this grip also). This allows the bar to be more inline with the forearms, giving better leverage/power and "push" to the movement. There will be a slight knee kick/dip to begin the movement. Can use quite a bit more weight in the Push press than the standard military/front press.
The Military press is where the bar is griped (thumbs aroung the bar) and the bar resting on the palms of the hands, offsetting the direct leverage/power a bit. Usually there is a slight bend in the knees to begin the press. The Military press is not started from behind the neck. That is another exercise called the press behind the neck or behind the neck press (take youe pick of either name to call it). The original idea of the military press was to have both heels together, locked knees and the back ramrod straight. That was considered being done in a military manner (by the military handbood).
In my experience (take it for what that may be worth...if anything) the Push press (like it's brother, the jerk press) is one of the most effected ways to build thick shoulder mass, and in a somewhat shorter period of time. Can also effect the traps/upper pecs/triceps.. Very heavy weight can be "pushed' overhead, sooner than you think. You should be buying larger size shirts if approaching, with serious intent, the Push press.
Sitting , while overhead pressing, is more suitable to the military/front press it's self. Because the body English from the knees/hips is taken away. If you are using one of what may be called shoulder/pressing benches, you are really doing a high angle incline press. If you are doing overhead presses with a 90 degree angle sit down bench, then you are doing a real overhead press, influencing the shoulders more directly.
DB presses are also a superior movement for the whole shoulder girdle. Suggest them being done standing and one arm at a time, for a better focus on this exercise. Bracing the free arm, while overhead pressing, seems to help with this exercise greatly.
Training for partial reps (prefered on a PR), in any form of overhead pressing, can build exceptional shoulder and give unbelieviable results in size and power to some. Good Luck..
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( The Military press is not started from behind the neck. That is another exercise called the press behind the neck or behind the neck press (take youe pick of either name to call it). The original idea of the military press was to have both heels together, locked knees and the back ramrod straight. That was considered being done in a military manner (by the military handbood).
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thanks for that mate, will have to relect and practice on
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serge nubret used 80 to 100 lbs ffor military presses so if your goal is muscle developement......
ah.... it must be the best exercise then!!!!! ::)
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why limit your self to one or the other, do your last set of military's as a heavy push press
agreed :)
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why do you think that?
ive never seen anyone in any gym ive frequented using more then 2 plates per side, ever... i know the olympic lifting type gyms would piss on this, but im talking every day run of the mill gyms and trainees
i have seen plenty use much more seated with a bb or much much more in the smith, with alot stricter/smoother reps than they could standing
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ive never seen anyone in any gym ive frequented using more then 2 plates per side, ever... i know the olympic lifting type gyms would piss on this, but im talking every day run of the mill gyms and trainees
i have seen plenty use much more seated with a bb or much much more in the smith, with alot stricter/smoother reps than they could standing
undoubtedly but particularly in the case of the smith machine where is the work being done?
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that depends on the trainee.......... if he wants to actualy build his delts he'll be lowering under control, and concentrating on his delts... if he's a knob he'll force his back against the seat and force out reps in any fashion
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Any DB overhead movement is gonna be hard as shit to stabilize and set up, dont even try...stick to barbell or even smiths for such a movement. And no, I am not a machinehead, its just this particular one, specially if you like to train heavy.
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Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always used to use.
I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.
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Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always used to use.
I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.
and gets the abs working as well
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and gets the abs working as well
It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.
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It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.
you are right, it doesnt get them to grow but almost any exercise that calls them to attention whither statically or dynamically does them good. Many people spend so much of their daily lives hunched forward that the abdominal muscles get relieved of much of their function
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It doesnt, or at least not what you seem to imply, its isometric contractions for stabilization, trainiing abdominals for dynamic stimulii (ie, growth, strength, etc) takes flexion of the lumbar area, which is not happening in a pressing movement of this type.
Are you saying that incorporating the abs to stabilize a couple hundred+ pounds overhead while you press it is not gowing to have any effect on them? I dunno, after some heavy military presses and some push presses I can sure feel my abs the next day.....
Several weeks ago I started doing standing db shoulder presses. I have always done them seated in the past, but my gym got rid of the shoulder press bench I always used to use.
I was shocked how comfortable the movement is and how much more you feel it in your delts. I also love the standing barbell presses, and now I dont think I will ever go back to seated overhead pressing.
I rarely do overhead pressing seated, db's or barbells, almost always standing. Strict military press is a favorite.
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Are you saying that incorporating the abs to stabilize a couple hundred+ pounds overhead while you press it is not gowing to have any effect on them? I dunno, after some heavy military presses and some push presses I can sure feel my abs the next day.....
I rarely do overhead pressing seated, db's or barbells, almost always standing. Strict military press is a favorite.
Any of the bodybuilding effects you want, either stronger muscle fibers or bigger, yes thats exactly how it is. If the case is that youre feeling your abs its not because they are getting "bigger", they were just isometrically trained hence, they are better at holding weight at above your head in a pushing movement, which you may or may not feel (it may also be bad positioning). That is the only advantage of isometric training, strengthening the muscle in the position it is stimulated, aka, you will not get stronger abs for stabilizing squats, thats why squatting, OHPing, etc, are NOT abs exercises.
What Im trying to say is that isometrical training is not what people think it is, squats and ohps will not get you stronger abs and the stimulii is different to the one inflicted to the delts in the case of OHP and its not really useful, you need to work your abs and general core dinamically to avoid further imbalancesk and possible injuries.
Also, feeling a muscle the day after is not a measure of good or bad work.
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Funny. :)
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Any of the bodybuilding effects you want, either stronger muscle fibers or bigger, yes thats exactly how it is. If the case is that youre feeling your abs its not because they are getting "bigger", they were just isometrically trained hence, they are better at holding weight at above your head in a pushing movement, which you may or may not feel (it may also be bad positioning). That is the only advantage of isometric training, strengthening the muscle in the position it is stimulated, aka, you will not get stronger abs for stabilizing squats, thats why squatting, OHPing, etc, are NOT abs exercises.
What Im trying to say is that isometrical training is not what people think it is, squats and ohps will not get you stronger abs and the stimulii is different to the one inflicted to the delts in the case of OHP and its not really useful, you need to work your abs and general core dinamically to avoid further imbalancesk and possible injuries.
Also, feeling a muscle the day after is not a measure of good or bad work.
Well since the main function of the abdominals is to stabilize and efficiently transfer power in heavy compound movements I would say that Isometric strength plays an important role when it comes to abs. And since movements like the overhead press, squats, deadlifts, rows require the abdominals to perform a alot of work it's safe to say that there is going to be some strength adaptions there. As far as size is concerned, the abs don't have that much size potential. You can certaintly develop them, but the overall size and thickness will get topped out fairly quickly.
Probably the most challenging direct ab excercise out there is the abwheel roll out ( on your feet not knees ), the majority of the movement the abs are used as stabilizers.
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I rarely work abs, but when I do, I use that stupid wheel. >:(
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Well since the main function of the abdominals is to stabilize and efficiently transfer power in heavy compound movements I would say that Isometric strength plays an important role when it comes to abs. And since movements like the overhead press, squats, deadlifts, rows require the abdominals to perform a alot of work it's safe to say that there is going to be some strength adaptions there. As far as size is concerned, the abs don't have that much size potential. You can certaintly develop them, but the overall size and thickness will get topped out fairly quickly.
Probably the most challenging direct ab excercise out there is the abwheel roll out ( on your feet not knees ), the majority of the movement the abs are used as stabilizers.
It does play a role, isometrically, not dinamically, meaning, you need decent core to stabilizae big weights, but that is not enough if you want stronger over all abs etc. Some strength adaptations, yes, ONLY at the angle of force in which it was isometrically stimulated, that is the big draw back of isometric contractions.
And yes, abs grow little, but strength wise youre far better off in dynamic contractions, ie, lumbar flexion.
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Metabolic since you're new in our little section here would you like to introduce yourself? Maybe a little of your past training experience/styles/types of lifting/etc?
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Allow for being slightly off topic, but probably the main cause of back pain in a general population (rather than a weighlifting population) is prolonged over loading of the lower back muscles compensating from ineffective abdominal use eg caving in like the side of an empty drinks can. The six pack is a function of visual rather than strength. Its always there but not always on show
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Yeah my six pack is more like a keg. 8)
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Metabolic since you're new in our little section here would you like to introduce yourself? Maybe a little of your past training experience/styles/types of lifting/etc?
The only thing that might be relevant to be said is that I am completely natural, hence by all internet standards Im a pussy weak homo twink that Squats 235 for several reps and have done 260 for doubles at about 80 kilos (I dont DL, too taxating, and I have done Oly lifting succesfully). Considering I am natural, I really do need to pay attention to everything I do, diet, training, rest, etc, hence I have done much research and participate in varios communities related to fitness. I have absolutely no official qualification of anything related to biology and you should research everything you read on the internets. And I have been training for several years, though I started as a total bro like most clueless teenagers.
Also I like men in thongs with big oiled muscles.
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Hmm. Have you ever done any heavy push presses? Not jerks, but a push press? How about a strongman log? Ever lifted one?
Point being is the I believe you are underestimated the abdominal involvement in heavy lifting, whether its squat/dead/OH pressing/etc. If you are lifting heavy doubles/triples, your abs are extremely involved.
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Hmm. Have you ever done any heavy push presses? Not jerks, but a push press? How about a strongman log? Ever lifted one?
Point being is the I believe you are underestimated the abdominal involvement in heavy lifting, whether its squat/dead/OH pressing/etc. If you are lifting heavy doubles/triples, your abs are extremely involved.
I have done heavy pp, yes, strongman work I have never done.
A heavy double or triple will no doubtly engage all core, point is, isometrical training is not enough, plain and simple because it works at the angle of force and because of the dynamic stimulii to the other relevant muscles involved in the pressing will make them progress faster than your abs and they will lag behind creating imbalances and possible injuries, for example, Weak Abs vs Iliopsoas or Hip Flexors (guaranteed injury in heavy squatting, especially front squatting because of the depth).
Bottom line, isometric contraction doesnt really count when training, you NEED/MUST do dynamic contractions for the muscle in quesiton in other to progress accordingly.
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Ok....let's try a different route here. What do you consider "progression" and how can you say the abs aren't getting stronger if you are lifting heavier and the abs are involved in lifting?
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Ok....let's try a different route here. What do you consider "progression" and how can you say the abs aren't getting stronger if you are lifting heavier and the abs are involved in lifting?
Progression = progressive overloading of the muscle in any given protocol, whether Myoreps, typical 3x8, etc
They are, only at the angle of force in which they are isometrically trained, I have stated this three times already, so, when you need to perform any other movement involving abdominals, by thinking youre abs GET STRONGZZ through squats or ohp or whatever you are proning yourself to injury and not getting them bigger at all, which in any case is not that important. Also, the adaptations of muscles used dynamically is much faster, hence abs lag behind, because it takes much less stress to stabilize than dynamically contract.
Different stimulii, dynamic vs isometric, your abs will not stay on par in strength with the dynamically trained muscles and will only be trained in the angle of force, that is all to isometric contractions.
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I understand what you think,because its what you read in the INTERNETZ, but reality is a little bit different. Like I said, you obviously have never done any heavy lifting and your "years" of experience aren't really showing right now. :(
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I understand what you think,because its what you read in the INTERNETZ, but reality is a little bit different. Like I said, you obviously have never done any heavy lifting and your "years" of experience aren't really showing right now. :(
You clearly dont know the difference between isometric and dynamic, but its ok, this board is not precisely training-smart. Also, Oly lifters, all of them, do direct core work, there is a reason for that, so do strongmen.
Also, you probably, tho I cant be sure, are horminzed to the gills and have barely done any research whatsoever on training because well, thats the beauty of AAS, they do the training for you.
Also number 2, you still havent said anything worth of any value to support your view while I have been using real practical knowledge from sports science, go figure...
Also number 3, FEELING a muscle the day after, whatever the fuck that means has never been a measure of good training, stop with that FEEL THE PUMP-70's crap.
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A) heavy double or triple will no doubtly engage all core....
b) the angle of force.
Im sorry but can you explain better the above?
I dont think anybody here is advocating isometric exercise as a growth mechanism.
Dynamic movement is only one aspect of strength. Stability is a basic requirement of strength.
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Lmfao....never juiced in my life, 100% natural kid, and unlike you, I have real life experience.
Let me try another approach for the mentally challenged here....
Wait, you don't deadlift cause "its too taxing"....hahahahaaa!!!! But just humor me here...I NEVER do direct forearm work, yet I find that as my deadlift increases, so does my ability to hold onto the bar...strange....or how about this...let's say your squatting your massive 235lbs....do you honestly believe that you tighten your abs as much as if you were squatting 400lbs? Would be a safe assumption to say that the abs would be stronger to squat the 400 right?
If you think the ab wall doesn't move when you squat/dead/ohp...then I can't help you and you should probably run back to BBing.com.
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Im sorry but can you explain better the above?
I dont think anybody here is advocating isometric exercise as a growth mechanism.
Dynamic movement is only one aspect of strength. Stability is a basic requirement of strength.
Core is engaged, yes, obviously.
Now, in isometric contractions strength is created only at the angle the muscle is isometrically contracted by the force applied. For example, a 90º isometric hold for quads will improve exactly that, your quad strength at the 90º angle, this help people pull out of the hole when they have a weakness going up.
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Lmfao....never juiced in my life, 100% natural kid, and unlike you, I have real life experience.
Let me try another approach for the mentally challenged here....
Wait, you don't deadlift cause "its too taxing"....hahahahaaa!!!! But just humor me here...I NEVER do direct forearm work, yet I find that as my deadlift increases, so does my ability to hold onto the bar...strange....or how about this...let's say your squatting your massive 235lbs....do you honestly believe that you tighten your abs as much as if you were squatting 400lbs? Would be a safe assumption to say that the abs would be stronger to squat the 400 right?
If you think the ab wall doesn't move when you squat/dead/ohp...then I can't help you and you should probably run back to BBing.com.
"If you think the ab wall doesn't move when you squat/dead/ohp...then I can't help you and you should probably run back to BBing.com."
If you are doing lumbar flexion (not extension, you twat) in DL and OHPing I got band news for you kiddo.
You have 0 knowledge of basic anatomy and training, but I dont really care though, im here for the fun boards, this is just me killing time. Feel free to keep answering with no content.
Hell, Im going to make it easier, name the functions of the abdominal wall, name the pattern movements involved in OHP and DLing (squatting is a little bit different, little bit), now anser your own dumb posts. At the angle, yes, you are stronger, at anything else nothing has improved.
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Core is engaged, yes, obviously.
Now, in isometric contractions strength is created only at the angle the muscle is isometrically contracted by the force applied. For example, a 90º isometric hold for quads will improve exactly that, your quad strength at the 90º angle, this help people pull out of the hole when they have a weakness going up.
The great thing about asking stupid questions is that some times i get intelligent answers
You have not explained what the angle of force is nor have you explained what you meant by "double or triple"
I can see by some of your replies here that you are impatient with being questioned but I also notice how quick you are to badmouth those who question you.
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Ok, since you refuse to see any other aspect than what you read about on the internet, I'm out. And for shits and giggles I'll probably delete your retardedness. :D
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The great thing about asking stupid questions is that some times i get intelligent answers
You have not explained what the angle of force is nor have you explained what you meant by "double or triple"
I can see by some of your replies here that you are impatient with being questioned but I also notice how quick you are to badmouth those who question you.
Im sorry, let me try again.
The angle of force is the position in which you hold isometrically contracted the muscle, like the 90º squat holds, the angle of force is the 90º.
Also, doubles and triples are the execution of a movement with 2RM or 3RM for that given exercise, like doing 2 C&J's reps, its not common in bodybuilding.
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Ok, since you refuse to see any other aspect than what you read about on the internet, I'm out. And for shits and giggles I'll probably delete your retardedness. :D
Please, go ahead and do so...I dont think I can say I care, just dont delete my posts in G&O board.
Also, and just to assure the deletion of my posts, I get the hint you a bit mad a noname is schooling you in basic exercise science.
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Lmfao, you know jack shit except what you've read, and it doesn't apply in the real world.
Take your 90deg "squat hold"...you honestly believe that you will only gain strength in the 90deg position...hahaa!!
I got a meeting real quick but I'm sure you'll respond with some more crap you read ion the internet. Lol
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Lmfao, you know jack shit except what you've read, and it doesn't apply in the real world.
Take your 90deg "squat hold"...you honestly believe that you will only gain strength in the 90deg position...hahaa!!
I got a meeting real quick but I'm sure you'll respond with some more crap you read ion the internet. Lol
More answers with no real content? Just delete my posts already...
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Im sorry, let me try again.
The angle of force is the position in which you hold isometrically contracted the muscle, like the 90º squat holds, the angle of force is the 90º.
Also, doubles and triples are the execution of a movement with 2RM or 3RM for that given exercise, like doing 2 C&J's reps, its not common in bodybuilding.
Your answer assumes the recipient knows what is in your mind. Perhaps you should say what you wrote aloud to youself.
Despite studying structural engineering and years of lifting I find your lanuage dense and inpenetrable. I will try and not bother you again
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BBC...maybe you should check BBing.com for an idiot to English translator?? :D
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Your answer assumes the recipient knows what is in your mind. Perhaps you should say what you wrote aloud to youself.
Despite studying structural engineering and years of lifting I find your lanuage dense and inpenetrable. I will try and not bother you again
Well, you could just ask or ignore, I have no problem in answering the best I can as english is not my first language. You too seem a bit criptic in your own style.
BBC...maybe you should check BBing.com for an idiot to English translator?? :D
Hard pwning brah!
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"English is not my first language"...
I can see now why you don't understand the point others are trying to get across to you.
What is your first language?
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"English is not my first language"...
I can see now why you don't understand the point others are trying to get across to you.
What is your first language?
Spanish
But yeah, you are right, I am wrong, happy? This is very stupid to go on. Train as you wish. And I like how you make it seem like Im wrong because of language barriers when you post with no content at all...
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What kind of "content" are you looking for? Its been explained to you a few times now about strength and the abdominal wall, you refuse to accept it because you are unwilling to see any other way. Everyone knows what you are trying to say about direct ab work, but you won't recognize any other points. So what "content" is anyone supposed to use in order to make you understand the point being made? You just keep repeating the same thing about isometrics and flexion and direct ab work, completely blind to the life experiences being handed you.
So if its not a language barrier then you are a totally blind idiot that won't accept anyone elses ideas...I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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What kind of "content" are you looking for? Its been explained to you a few times now about strength and the abdominal wall, you refuse to accept it because you are unwilling to see any other way. Everyone knows what you are trying to say about direct ab work, but you won't recognize any other points. So what "content" is anyone supposed to use in order to make you understand the point being made? You just keep repeating the same thing about isometrics and flexion and direct ab work, completely blind to the life experiences being handed you.
So if its not a language barrier then you are a totally blind idiot that won't accept anyone elses ideas...I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
You are right, I am wrong, can we finish this? Thanks.
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PS: there is not a right or wrong here, there are two different things being talked about and you are trying to combine them under a blanket statement. ;)
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PS: there is not a right or wrong here, there are two different things being talked about and you are trying to combine them under a blanket statement. ;)
This is absolutely correct.
The abs have a very limited ROM when it comes to direct abdominal training, so between the squats, deads, OHP, and rows your are pretty much putting a load on the entire range of motion. Not to say that direct abdominal work is useless, I perform it myself, but saying that the function they play during heavy compound movements won't strengthen them is not true.
Now I am not writing this for the sake of an argument or to necessarily change Metabolic's mind, it's because someone might come across this thread and I want them to see the entire picture.
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I used to train Abs non stop but in the last few years i just do a few crunches or sit ups and that with Heavy training is all you need. Diet is key and if you have low body fat it does not matter what you do, they will get hard and defined. Who gives a shit about the pretty boy beach look. It's like all the talk you used to hear about sit ups Vs Crunches. yes crunches and rev crunches are good but i have gotten good results from incline sit ups too. I agree that heavy training will strengthen your midsection.
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:) ;D no words nescessary
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True that movements like squats, DL's, overhead pressing and even curls & lateral raises recruit the Abs (chins/pullups also affect the Abs strongly), but the full potential of the Ab's themselves is not met if only relying on the secondary affects of these exercises. Also the important obliques will need consideration. This is all accomplished through direct Ab work. Most all Pl'ers & Olympic lifters understand this. Not talking about any marathon style sit ups, leg raises, etc, with endless reps. Treat the Ab exercises within the range of 6 to 10 reps, with perhaps 2 to 3 sets max. With progressive heavier weight each workout, just like any other body part.
The important counter balance to the Abs is a matching strong lower back. Can't have one without the other if full potential, in strength & development, is the goal. Can be very good insurance against injury and keeping the lower back in a healthy state. Hyper extensions, GM'ings, Romanian DL's may prove worth the time invested in them. These selective exercises have also help many men increase their squatting and Dl abilities very well, when a sticking point was reached. As well as having a noticeable effect on their overhead lifting. With improve Ab & lower back strength, it's like have a built in lifting belt 24/7.
Yev33 mentioned the Ab wheel , which is one of the better pieces of equipment to work the full lower & upper Ab's. Other than a Plank, which may be a little advance for some. . Might also try holding a bar above the head (as in the BP) in the start of a situp position and do your situps or crunches with the added resistance that way. Rope Ab work is also very good. Good Luck.
Funk51: Yes, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words.