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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: BayGBM on February 16, 2012, 09:46:46 AM

Title: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: BayGBM on February 16, 2012, 09:46:46 AM
Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere else—not necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 16, 2012, 11:09:55 AM
Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere else—not necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


I go to church. If there is a heaven, I believe everyone goes there. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in limbo.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 16, 2012, 07:46:20 PM
Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere else—not necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


Whether they believe it or not has no bearing, based on Scripture (specifically a passage you've heard several times):

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The emphasis is that all sinners (homosexuals included) must repent and be sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many in the faith harp on verses 9 and 10, while ignoring verse 11.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: tonymctones on February 16, 2012, 07:52:53 PM
I go to church. If there is a heaven, I believe everyone goes there. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in limbo.
what do you believe the incentive is to act in a way in accordance with the bibles teachings then?

Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 16, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
Whether they believe it or not has no bearing, based on Scripture (specifically a passage you've heard several times):

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The emphasis is that all sinners (homosexuals included) must repent and be sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many in the faith harp on verses 9 and 10, while ignoring verse 11.

McWay - I don't know the bible as well as you

What is the name of the person who wrote this part of the bible

What is the definition of a fornicator as specified in this passage and also what is the defintion of an adulterer ?

I assume their must be some distinction between the two
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 16, 2012, 09:08:22 PM
McWay - I don't know the bible as well as you

What is the name of the person who wrote this part of the bible

Paul


What is the definition of a fornicator as specified in this passage and also what is the defintion of an adulterer ?

I assume their must be some distinction between the two

Fornicator: non-married person having sex with another non-married person

Adulterer: someone having sex with another who is married; someone who is married having sex with someone other than his/her spouse.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 16, 2012, 09:34:57 PM
what do you believe the incentive is to act in a way in accordance with the bibles teachings then?



The bible was written by men for their fellow tribesmen in a very different world than the one we live in today. What was relevant to survival then is no longer. I think of the bible as man's folklore and not the word of God. The incentive to act in whatever way one chooses lies in the knowledge that what you sow so shall you reap....and I am speaking of the here and now, not the hereafter.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 16, 2012, 10:22:55 PM
Paul

Fornicator: non-married person having sex with another non-married person

Adulterer: someone having sex with another who is married; someone who is married having sex with someone other than his/her spouse.

so this person called Paul actually wrote this?

also, just to clarify

is it only non married person with non married person = fornicator ?

what if one person is married and the other is not

is that one fornicator and one adulter or are they both adulterers?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 16, 2012, 10:37:02 PM
so this person called Paul actually wrote this?

also, just to clarify

is it only non married person with non married person = fornicator ?

what if one person is married and the other is not

is that one fornicator and one adulter or are they both adulterers?

Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 16, 2012, 11:41:49 PM
Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.

WAS is the operative word here.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: tonymctones on February 17, 2012, 05:58:35 AM
The bible was written by men for their fellow tribesmen in a very different world than the one we live in today. What was relevant to survival then is no longer. I think of the bible as man's folklore and not the word of God. The incentive to act in whatever way one chooses lies in the knowledge that what you sow so shall you reap....and I am speaking of the here and now, not the hereafter.
You seem to be referring to karma, so really God has no bearing on your life or actions here on earth. You will go to heaven regardless of whether you are a good Christian or a raping murderer who never repents?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 17, 2012, 08:13:50 AM
You seem to be referring to karma, so really God has no bearing on your life or actions here on earth. You will go to heaven regardless of whether you are a good Christian or a raping murderer who never repents?

I don't believe in heaven. But if I did, I believe that all people who have honestly lived good lives would go there....and that man's laws do not define what is good and what is not because goodness comes from within and not from without.

Your reply doesn't follow a logical sequence. What if I am not a "good Christian" (whatever that is) and I am also not a raping murderer who never repents and let's suppose there were a heaven, would I go there? For example in your opinion, do folks who have done nothing seriously bad in their lives and who are Buddist, Muslim, Mormon or Jewish etc. go to the hereafter? Or are you one of those folks who believes heaven is reserved only for "good Christains" or bad ones who repent?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
Adultery involves as least one married person, the penalty for committing adultery was DEATH...for both parties involved.

I don't see any distinction in your quote as to the result of being a fornicator, adulter, idolators, thieves, drunkards, etc..

according to "Paul" or whoever actually wrote this passage, he seems top believe that none of these people shall "inherit the kingdom of God" ....whatever that actually means

seems like plenty of modern christians would fall into many of the aforementioned categories
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
I don't see any distinction in your quote as to the result of being a fornicator, adulter, idolators, thieves, drunkards, etc..

according to "Paul" or whoever actually wrote this passage, he seems top believe that none of these people shall "inherit the kingdom of God" ....whatever that actually means

seems like plenty of modern christians would fall into many of the aforementioned categories

EXACTLY!!

Paul wrote in Romans 6 that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: tonymctones on February 17, 2012, 03:35:56 PM
I don't believe in heaven. But if I did, I believe that all people who have honestly lived good lives would go there....and that man's laws do not define what is good and what is not because goodness comes from within and not from without.

Your reply doesn't follow a logical sequence. What if I am not a "good Christian" (whatever that is) and I am also not a raping murderer who never repents and let's suppose there were a heaven, would I go there? For example in your opinion, do folks who have done nothing seriously bad in their lives and who are Buddist, Muslim, Mormon or Jewish etc. go to the hereafter? Or are you one of those folks who believes heaven is reserved only for "good Christains" or bad ones who repent?
you seem to subscribe to christianity while creating your own beliefs? why is that if you dont believe in christianity then why attend church?

Thats a good question, according to the Bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Now what it is or isnt, well Ill find out sooner or later as will you.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: B_B_C on February 17, 2012, 03:40:28 PM
depends whether they are coming or going
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 17, 2012, 03:55:48 PM
you seem to subscribe to christianity while creating your own beliefs? why is that if you dont believe in christianity then why attend church?

Thats a good question, according to the Bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Now what it is or isnt, well Ill find out sooner or later as will you.

Sorry to have confused you about my faith. My wife is Catholic. I attend church with her for her and because I love her. My father and his family were Episcopalian. My mom probably attended a Christian Science Church as a child. My mom and step dad were Religious Scientist....kind of a new age religion that embraces all beliefs. I attended church with them on the rare occasion that they decided to go. So given all that, I was probably most influenced by the metaphysical teachings of Religious Science. Truthfully, I am open to any teaching that helps people find a better life and be better people.

I guess we will all find out someday what comes after this life....maybe just dust as in "ashes to ashes and dust to dust."
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 04:23:09 PM
EXACTLY!!

Paul wrote in Romans 6 that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

so according to  Paul (or whoever actually wrote this part of the bible)

the following people will not be going to heaven:

fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, nor effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, nor extortioners

I assume non-effeminate men are Ok (provided they are not also fornicators, drunkards, etc..) and same goes for lesbians

I'm not really sure  what "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to.   Did "Paul" provide any clarification on this

BTW - from this list it seems almost no one will be going to heaven.

McWay - I'm guessing you're somewhere on that list too.

Most likely a fornicator at the very least.

Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 04:28:41 PM
so according to  Paul (or whoever actually wrote this part of the bible)

the following people will not be going to heaven:

fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, nor effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, nor extortioners

I assume non-effeminate men are Ok (provided they are not also fornicators, drunkards, etc..) and same goes for lesbians

Your assumption is incorrect. See Romans 1:26-32.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,   being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


I'm not really sure  what "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to.   Did "Paul" provide any clarification on this

My guess would be non-effeminate homosexuals.


BTW - from this list it seems almost no one will be going to heaven.

McWay - I'm guessing you're somewhere on that list too.

Most likely a fornicator at the very least.



Again, you forget verse 1 Cor. 6:11. Unfortunately, so do a lot of people.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 05:04:14 PM
Your assumption is incorrect. See Romans 1:26-32.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,   being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

My guess would be non-effeminate homosexuals.

Again, you forget verse 1 Cor. 6:11. Unfortunately, so do a lot of people.

so you never had premarital sex?

btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 17, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?

Exactly! How do we know that all contributors to the Bible weren't just preaching from the standpoint of personal beliefs as opposed to actually conveying the word of God?

Well, those who believe that the bible is gospel will tell you that what is written therein is the word of God and you should not question it all but take it on faith.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 05:24:15 PM
so you never had premarital sex?

Unfortunately, I can't make such a claim.


btw - how do we know Paul wasn't just talking out of his ass and giving his own personal opinions?

Because his words are consistent with other parts of Scripture, including the Old Testament, and with the words of Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 05:27:20 PM
Exactly! How do we know that all contributors to the Bible weren't just preaching from the standpoint of personal beliefs as opposed to actually conveying the word of God?

Well, those who believe that the bible is gospel will tell you that what is written therein is the word of God and you should not question it all but take it on faith.

And who told you that again?

I don't know what churches you've attended or people you know. But, NOBODY with whom I've encountered has ever claimed that people should just take it on faith.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 17, 2012, 05:46:40 PM
And who told you that again?

I don't know what churches you've attended or people you know. But, NOBODY with whom I've encountered has ever claimed that people should just take it on faith.

Before marrying my wife 47 years ago, I agreed to go through catechism classes, not because I was planing on converting, but because I wanted to better understand her religion since I was marrying her and agreeing our children would be raised Catholic. When I would question certain teachings I was told to take it on faith by the priest teaching the class. One of the beliefs I could not comprehend was the idea that babies who died and had not been properly baptized would go to limbo as opposed to heaven because of original sin. This also applied to babies which died in childbirth.

Eventually, the priest and I decided to agree to disagree and I stopped attending the classes.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 05:58:49 PM
Before marrying my wife 47 years ago, I agreed to go through catechism classes, not because I was planing on converting, but because I wanted to better understand her religion since I was marrying her and agreeing our children would be raised Catholic. When I would question certain teachings I was told to take it on faith by the priest teaching the class. One of the beliefs I could not comprehend was the idea that babies who died and had not been properly baptized would go to limbo as opposed to heaven because of original sin. This also applied to babies which died in childbirth.

Eventually, the priest and I decided to agree to disagree and I stopped attending the classes.

That tends to happen among Catholic folks (which I am not; so that explains what I said earlier).

Every preacher to whom I've asked a question about our faith has either answered the question directly, or pointed me to the Scriptures to get a better grasp on the concept.

At the risk of talking a potshot at some Catholics, I will say that any priest who tells you that either doesn't know the answer himself or DOES know the answer but would rather stick with traditions than go with Scripture.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 06:46:24 PM
Unfortunately, I can't make such a claim.
Because his words are consistent with other parts of Scripture, including the Old Testament, and with the words of Jesus Christ.

so you're a fornicator

basically the same status as an "effeminate"

so no kingdom of heaven for you

Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 17, 2012, 07:21:03 PM
so you're a fornicator

basically the same status as an "effeminate"

so no kingdom of heaven for you




Technically, you're right. HOWEVER......

Once again, you forget verse 11. There's this thing called repentance and salvation through Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 07:25:48 PM

Technically, you're right. HOWEVER......

Once again, you forget verse 11. There's this thing called repentance and salvation through Jesus Christ.

same goes for the gays.....right?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 17, 2012, 10:24:05 PM
Your assumption is incorrect. See Romans 1:26-32.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,   being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

My guess would be non-effeminate homosexuals.
Again, you forget verse 1 Cor. 6:11. Unfortunately, so do a lot of people.

you bring up a great point

all we can ever do with the bible is make guesses

when this guy Pual supposedly wrote "abusers of themselves with mankind"

I'm going to guess he was talking about child molestors

either that or some other kind of fornicator
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 18, 2012, 04:43:56 AM
Can gay people go to heaven?

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere else—not necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


YES

If a homosexual repents of all his/her sins(including having sex with someone of the same gender), and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he/she(gays/lesbians) will go to Heaven.  They are no longer homosexuals because they have repented of that sin.  They may still be gay/lesbian because of a remaining sexual attraction to people of the same gender.  Their chances of making it to Heaven are no different than it is for heterosexuals.  We all have sinned and need Jesus Christ.  

Most Evangelical Christians or "church goers" will tell you this, backed by the Bible.

The problem is that many want to deny that homosexuality is a sin when the Bible clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible never said that being non-white was a sin.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: BayGBM on February 18, 2012, 07:27:22 AM
YES

If a homosexual repents of all his/her sins(including having sex with someone of the same gender), and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he/she(gays/lesbians) will go to Heaven.  They are no longer homosexuals because they have repented of that sin.  They may still be gay/lesbian because of a remaining sexual attraction to people of the same gender.  Their chances of making it to Heaven are no different than it is for heterosexuals.  We all have sinned and need Jesus Christ.  

Most Evangelical Christians or "church goers" will tell you this, backed by the Bible.

The problem is that many want to deny that homosexuality is a sin when the Bible clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible never said that being non-white was a sin.

That was a widely held belief in the USA and people in the church (parishioners and church leaders) were not shy about articulating it.  In fact, even the intellectuals throughout the 19th century used the Bible specifically to justify slavery.  Many biblical scholars in early America interpreted the Pentateuch as identify blacks as condemned to slavery and morally inferior to whites.

The Old Testament articulates many things as sin that people today embrace as normative including everything from eating certain foods to premarital sex.  Would you deny those things are sins?  The Old Testament also endorses many things that today we outlaw such as polygamy.  So should people of faith live by the Old Testament or not?  Finally, the New Testament (which is the basis for Christianity) does not condemn gay and lesbian unions at all.  If the NT does not identify homosexuality as a sin why should Christians find it objectionable?  If Christians today are being guided by the OT why do they reject things like polygamy and embrace lifestyle choices the OT specifically condemns such as fornication?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 18, 2012, 09:20:19 AM
That was a widely held belief in the USA and people in the church (parishioners and church leaders) were not shy about articulating it.  In fact, even the intellectuals throughout the 19th century used the Bible specifically to justify slavery.  Many biblical scholars in early America interpreted the Pentateuch as identify blacks as condemned to slavery and morally inferior to whites.

The Old Testament articulates many things as sin that people today embrace as normative including everything from eating certain foods to premarital sex.  Would you deny those things are sins?  The Old Testament also endorses many things that today we outlaw such as polygamy.  So should people of faith live by the Old Testament or not?  Finally, the New Testament (which is the basis for Christianity) does not condemn gay and lesbian unions at all.  If the NT does not identify homosexuality as a sin why should Christians find it objectionable?  If Christians today are being guided by the OT why do they reject things like polygamy and embrace lifestyle choices the OT specifically condemns such as fornication?

Everything that you say is irrelevant.  People can argue, twist and spin the Bible all they want.  Whether or not you believe in the Bible, the fact still remains that the Bible clearly states both in the New Testament and in the Old Testament that homosexuality is a sin.  But the Bible never states that being black is a sin.

This goes back to homosexuals comparing their struggle to racism and antisemitism.  They are not the same thing, and in fact they can't compare.  Many blacks and Jews are offended by that comparison.

Yes, gays and lesbians can go to Heaven according to the Bible, if they repent of their sins(homosexuality included) and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 18, 2012, 09:25:21 AM
forget about the gays

think about how many Catholics are in hell just for eating meat on Friday

how many Christians are doing time in hell for wearing clothes woven with two kinds of cloth

Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 18, 2012, 01:54:34 PM
YES

If a homosexual repents of all his/her sins(including having sex with someone of the same gender), and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he/she(gays/lesbians) will go to Heaven.  They are no longer homosexuals because they have repented of that sin.  They may still be gay/lesbian because of a remaining sexual attraction to people of the same gender.  Their chances of making it to Heaven are no different than it is for heterosexuals.  We all have sinned and need Jesus Christ.  

Most Evangelical Christians or "church goers" will tell you this, backed by the Bible.

The problem is that many want to deny that homosexuality is a sin when the Bible clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible never said that being non-white was a sin.

EXACTLY!!

It appears that Straw is trying to play some "gotcha" games. But, Scripture is quite clear on this subject.

That was a widely held belief in the USA and people in the church (parishioners and church leaders) were not shy about articulating it.  In fact, even the intellectuals throughout the 19th century used the Bible specifically to justify slavery.  Many biblical scholars in early America interpreted the Pentateuch as identify blacks as condemned to slavery and morally inferior to whites.

The Old Testament articulates many things as sin that people today embrace as normative including everything from eating certain foods to premarital sex.  Would you deny those things are sins?  The Old Testament also endorses many things that today we outlaw such as polygamy.  So should people of faith live by the Old Testament or not?  Finally, the New Testament (which is the basis for Christianity) does not condemn gay and lesbian unions at all.  If the NT does not identify homosexuality as a sin why should Christians find it objectionable?  If Christians today are being guided by the OT why do they reject things like polygamy and embrace lifestyle choices the OT specifically condemns such as fornication?

I'm afraid you're dead wrong on your claim about gay and lesbian unions. Anything REMOTELY resembling what we'd call homosexuality or gay/lesbian unions is viewed as nothing but sinful (see 1 Cor. 6 and Romans 1).

It's in BOTH Testaments. When it comes to marriage, only ONE parameter is given: a man and a woman.

Jesus Christ even spoke the words, "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female and said, 'For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?'

That's male and female, not male and male, nor female and female. If there were some exemption for homosexuals, Christ would have made such. He clearly DID NOT.

This isn't an OT vs NT thing. Both testaments refer to homosexuality (or whatever term was used to coin such back in the day: sodomite, male prostitute, effeminate, abusers of self with mankind, lying with a man as one lies with a woman, etc) as wrong, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 18, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
same goes for the gays.....right?

Yep! the key words are REPENTANCE, not excusing such behavior of claiming it's not sinful. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more". As you just said, "same goes for the gays".
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Rhino on February 18, 2012, 11:37:37 PM
yeah but may lose points for gayness.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 19, 2012, 08:42:50 AM
EXACTLY!!

It appears that Straw is trying to play some "gotcha" games. But, Scripture is quite clear on this subject.

.

Whatchoo talkin bout Willis

You're a fornicator which, according to your buddy Paul, is not any different in the eyes of god then being an "effeminate"

BTW - why do fundies focus so much on gays instead of Adulterers

There has got to be way more adulterers than gays and unlike gay people no one can argue that adultery is not 100% CHOICE, plus you've got the broken marriage vow

Adultery is where the money is at

why bother with minnows when you can go after a whale ?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: MCWAY on February 19, 2012, 11:03:22 AM
Whatchoo talkin bout Willis

You're a fornicator which, according to your buddy Paul, is not any different in the eyes of god then being an "effeminate"

I already acknowledged that. Why do you keep harping on it, other than your obvious attempt to excuse homosexuality as not being sinful?


BTW - why do fundies focus so much on gays instead of Adulterers

Because adulterers aren't going around, claiming that their sinful behavior is a constitutional right that needs to be subsidized or legally recognized.


There has got to be way more adulterers than gays and unlike gay people no one can argue that adultery is not 100% CHOICE, plus you've got the broken marriage vow

Adultery is where the money is at

why bother with minnows when you can go after a whale ?

Loco already explained that. Besides, when people have attempted to "go after a whale", guess who keeps coming up with Clintonesque rationale for not being harder on adultery....people like you, the same ones trying to excuse homosexual behavior.

Go to the G&O thread if you don't believe me. How many times do we see threads by some of the more infantile males over there, blasting a woman, when they find out that woman has taken her cheating hubby to the cleaners (Look at all the nice thing they've said about Vanessa Bryant, Linda Hogan, Ellen Nordegren, et. al).
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 19, 2012, 12:17:24 PM
I already acknowledged that. Why do you keep harping on it, other than your obvious attempt to excuse homosexuality as not being sinful?

Because adulterers aren't going around, claiming that their sinful behavior is a constitutional right that needs to be subsidized or legally recognized.

Loco already explained that. Besides, when people have attempted to "go after a whale", guess who keeps coming up with Clintonesque rationale for not being harder on adultery....people like you, the same ones trying to excuse homosexual behavior.

Go to the G&O thread if you don't believe me. How many times do we see threads by some of the more infantile males over there, blasting a woman, when they find out that woman has taken her cheating hubby to the cleaners (Look at all the nice thing they've said about Vanessa Bryant, Linda Hogan, Ellen Nordegren, et. al).

how can something be a "sin" if one doesn't subscribe to that religious belief?

Seriously though, if you believe being gay is a sin and you also believe Adultery is a sin then they are both sins (according to you)

why not spend an equal or greater time in Adultery

Btw - Adulters already have the freedom  to be Adulterers and the same goes for Fornicators such as yourself

Adultery is a 100% choice, involves a broken vow taken before God (if one believes in such things), harms families, et....

Adultery is where the money is at

As you know, I think your fundie beliefs are nonsense and the same goes for fundie Muslims, Catholics, Mormons etc..

I fully believe is freedom of religion and equally, freedom to have no religion, so I have no problem tolerating your lifestyle choice

too bad you can't do the same

I would be impressed with any religious person who was capable of respecting other peoples choices and not trying to condem others as "sinners" based on their own personal beliefs

This seems to be something that mostly fundie christian and muslims do

when was the last time you saw a Hindu criticizing non-hindus for eating meat or a jew criticizing non jews for eating a cheesburger?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 19, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
how can something be a "sin" if one doesn't subscribe to that religious belief?

Seriously though, if you believe being gay is a sin and you also believe Adultery is a sin then they are both sins (according to you)

why not spend an equal or greater time in Adultery

Btw - Adulters already have the freedom  to be Adulterers and the same goes for Fornicators such as yourself

Adultery is a 100% choice, involves a broken vow taken before God (if one believes in such things), harms families, et....

Adultery is where the money is at

As you know, I think your fundie beliefs are nonsense and the same goes for fundie Muslims, Catholics, Mormons etc..

I fully believe is freedom of religion and equally, freedom to have no religion, so I have no problem tolerating your lifestyle choice

too bad you can't do the same

I would be impressed with any religious person who was capable of respecting other peoples choices and not trying to condem others as "sinners" based on their own personal beliefs

This seems to be something that mostly fundie christian and muslims do

when was the last time you saw a Hindu criticizing non-hindus for eating meat or a jew criticizing non jews for eating a cheesburger?

You have totally derailed BayGBM's thread to get some attention and to vent your hatred for evangelical Christians.  BayGBM asked a question to "church goers" and the Christians on the board answered him.  Your rant is not making any sense and it's irrelevant to the thread.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 19, 2012, 06:40:13 PM
You have totally derailed BayGBM's thread to get some attention and to vent your hatred for evangelical Christians.  BayGBM asked a question to "church goers" and the Christians on the board answered him.  Your rant is not making any sense and it's irrelevant to the thread.

how have I "derailed" Bay's thread?

I don't hate fundies

I'm very tolerant of almost all religious beliefs

how about you?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Primemuscle on February 19, 2012, 11:17:29 PM
For all of you who have nothing better to do than discuss whether someone who is gay is going to heaven or not, I have this to say....get a life!
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2012, 05:14:16 AM
For all of you who have nothing better to do than discuss whether someone who is gay is going to heaven or not, I have this to say....get a life!

Are you telling BayGBM to get a life?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2012, 07:13:19 AM
how have I "derailed" Bay's thread?

I don't hate fundies

I'm very tolerant of almost all religious beliefs

how about you?

LOL...I'm sure Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot thought of themselves as "very tolerant."    :)
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 20, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
LOL...I'm sure Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot thought of themselves as "very tolerant."    :)

I doubt it

as you well know they were ruthless dictators who killed anyone they saw as a threat to their power




Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
I doubt it

as you well know they were ruthless dictators who killed anyone they saw as a threat to their power






Just like you saying that you are "very tolerant" while at the same time attacking Christians on the board who already said that YES, gays and lesbians can go to Heaven if they repent of their sins and accept Jesus, just like heterosexuals.  You saying that you are "very tolerant" while at the same time posting that anyone who believes in God has a mental illness.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 20, 2012, 10:05:48 AM
Just like you saying that you are "very tolerant" while at the same time attacking Christians on the board who already said that YES, gays and lesbians can go to Heaven if they repent of their sins and accept Jesus, just like heterosexuals.  You saying that you are "very tolerant" while at the same time posting that anyone who believes in God has a mental illness.

who did I attack?

just because I think someone's beliefs are nutty doesn't mean I'm attacking them

attacking someone would calling them a sinner or saying they should be condemned to death etc..

I'm very tolerant or your beliefs

Are you tolerant of mine?
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2012, 02:55:24 PM
who did I attack?

just because I think someone's beliefs are nutty doesn't mean I'm attacking them

attacking someone would calling them a sinner or saying they should be condemned to death etc..

I'm very tolerant or your beliefs

Are you tolerant of mine?

You think anyone who believes in God is mentally ill and then you say that you are "very tolerant."    ::)

MCWAY and I just said that YES, gays and lesbians can go to Heaven if they repent and accept Jesus, same as anyone else.  How is that intolerant?

We are not saying that homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible is saying it, and we believe it.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: LurkerNoMore on February 20, 2012, 03:18:41 PM
so according to  Paul (or whoever actually wrote this part of the bible)

the following people will not be going to heaven:

fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, nor effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, nor extortioners

I assume non-effeminate men are Ok (provided they are not also fornicators, drunkards, etc..) and same goes for lesbians

I'm not really sure  what "abusers of themselves with mankind" refers to.   Did "Paul" provide any clarification on this

BTW - from this list it seems almost no one will be going to heaven.

McWay - I'm guessing you're somewhere on that list too.

Most likely a fornicator at the very least.



Don't forget anyone praying in church or in public will never get into heaven either. 
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 20, 2012, 06:58:44 PM
You think anyone who believes in God is mentally ill and then you say that you are "very tolerant."    ::)

MCWAY and I just said that YES, gays and lesbians can go to Heaven if they repent and accept Jesus, same as anyone else.  How is that intolerant?

We are not saying that homosexuality is a sin.  The Bible is saying it, and we believe it.

no I don't

I think fundies of all religions have a form of mental illness

that's very different than simply believing in god
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2012, 01:43:24 AM
no I don't

I think fundies of all religions have a form of mental illness

that's very different than simply believing in god

You have gone on record posting that you think anyone who believes in God has a mental illness.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Straw Man on February 21, 2012, 08:24:40 AM
You have gone on record posting that you think anyone who believes in God has a mental illness.

your memory is not correct

I have never said merely believing in God is a mental illness
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Butterbean on February 22, 2012, 02:51:57 PM
Can gay people go to heaven?  

I pose this question in a historical context: it used to be a commonly held belief in the United States that only white people could go to heaven.  Blacks, Native Americans, and others went somewhere else—not necessarily to hell, but definitely not to heaven.  Given the hostility to gay marriage and the unwelcome climate of most churches in the U.S. to gays and lesbians, I wonder if many churchgoers today believe that gays and lesbians can go to heaven.


Yes.

Never heard of the commonly held belief in the US that only whites would go to heaven.  But that belief is not Biblical.  According to the Bible, those who accept Christ as Savior will go to heaven.
Title: Re: Can gay people go to heaven?
Post by: Butterbean on February 22, 2012, 03:18:25 PM
That was a widely held belief in the USA and people in the church (parishioners and church leaders) were not shy about articulating it.  In fact, even the intellectuals throughout the 19th century used the Bible specifically to justify slavery.  Many biblical scholars in early America interpreted the Pentateuch as identify blacks as condemned to slavery and morally inferior to whites.

The Old Testament articulates many things as sin that people today embrace as normative including everything from eating certain foods to premarital sex.  Would you deny those things are sins?  The Old Testament also endorses many things that today we outlaw such as polygamy.  So should people of faith live by the Old Testament or not?  Finally, the New Testament (which is the basis for Christianity) does not condemn gay and lesbian unions at all.  If the NT does not identify homosexuality as a sin why should Christians find it objectionable?  If Christians today are being guided by the OT why do they reject things like polygamy and embrace lifestyle choices the OT specifically condemns such as fornication?


If "biblical scholars" of any time period believed that blacks are morally inferior to whites and somehow indicate that that comes from the Bible they are wrong.  The Bible states no such thing.  That's their own mistake/prejudice.

And Bay, I think you are confusing Mosaic Law w/Moral Law.  Moral Law we should try to follow/keep...but Mosaic Law was to "set Israel apart." 

Avoiding certain foods (and clothing w/diff materials as someone stated in this thread) were part of Mosaic Law...premarital sex would be in the Moral Law arena.

As far as I know Polygamy was never "approved" as a way of life, but people did engage in it.

And yes, homosexuality is referred to as sinful in the NT as well as the OT but Bay, even if homosexuality wasn't a sin, anyone that has told a lie has sinned and that puts them in need of a Savior anyway.  If you read the Bible you will see it states that we all need a Savior.  Everyone.