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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:20:54 AM



Title: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:20:54 AM
seems like i can add this to the list of myths like "squats are bad for the knees" and "cardio kills gains"


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: mantronik on March 07, 2012, 11:23:46 AM
They are not a natural movement according to the guru's.
I say if you have enough flexibility to do them without pain, go ahead!!
It's a different story if you load up the bar and then drop the weight behind your neck and then have to contract again from almost no active tension to get the weight back up.
I like them too and never took them out despite all these stories.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:26:09 AM
They are not a natural movement according to the guru's.
I say if you have enough flexibility to do them without pain, go ahead!!
It's a different story if you load up the bar and then drop the weight behind your neck and then have to contract again from almost no active tension to get the weight back up.
I like them too and never took them out despite all these stories.


ed coan did them and these russia weightlifting guys also do them even from completely on the traps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPxwuGUZBY

i never did them because of these stories


now i started doing them i feel i've been missing out


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: mass243 on March 07, 2012, 11:34:34 AM


It's not "bad for your shoulders" if movement is controlled and your shoulders are healthy, have normal mobility.

I also love this exercise.
Just don't lower the bar under the ear level... though I have had no problems from going lower occasionally myself.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: BB on March 07, 2012, 11:39:29 AM
Yeah, it's one of those things where you're either perfectly fine with them or they absolutely wreck you. I think it mainly has to do with grip and bar position. Too many guys get locked into "I must do it this way because XYZ says to do them this way". Just do an exercise  the way it feels the best and most natural to you.

The presses have been part of Olympic Lifting for years, if they were that bad for you, the hospitals would be flowing with half broken lifters.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:41:33 AM
Yeah, it's one of those things where you're either perfectly fine with them or they absolutely wreck you. I think it mainly has to do with grip and bar position. Too many guys get locked into "I must do it this way because XYZ says to do them this way". Just do an exercise  the way it feels the best and most natural to you.

The presses have been part of Olympic Lifting for years, if they were that bad for you, the hospitals would be flowing with half broken lifters.
i use the same grip as bench press, so that when i'm at ear level my forearms are vertical



Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: mr.turbo on March 07, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
pinches the rotator cuff try it for a while you'll see. 

enjoy the chronic impingement :)


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: david94 on March 07, 2012, 11:45:51 AM
It depends of the mobility of your scapula. If your scapula is not very mobile (most of the time when you have narrow clavicles), don't lower the bar too much. :)


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:48:07 AM
It depends of the mobility of your scapula. If your scapula is not very mobile (most of the time when you have narrow clavicles), don't lower the bar too much. :)
how is it much different from military presses which are usually done to the clavicle


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Henda on March 07, 2012, 11:51:05 AM
i always relied on front presses but after years still had very flat shoulders when viewed from the front
switching to behind the necks solved the problem very quickly, if you can handle them they are great


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
i always relied on front presses but after years still had very flat shoulders when viewed from the front
switching to behind the necks solved the problem very quickly, if you can handle them they are great
sounds great i have very poor shoulders


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Henda on March 07, 2012, 11:58:37 AM
while i wouldnt say mine are great now they are far more rounded when viewed from the front since making the change,before they were very very flat


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: david94 on March 07, 2012, 12:34:19 PM
how is it much different from military presses which are usually done to the clavicle

Because people with larger clavicle have a better scapula mobility so they can go lower naturally. Most people want to do the movement completely as they learned in a book but some of them hurt their shoulder or have pain. It's also better to have short forearms as you have less amplitude with that.

You don't have this problem with the military press because your scapula moves less and you put less stress on your shoulder articulation.

So it's not an amplitude issue, it's mainly depends of your morphology for this type of exercise.



Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on March 07, 2012, 12:34:52 PM
Since there are no magic exercises why take a risk? Just press in the front.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: hematocritter on March 07, 2012, 02:09:00 PM
These feel good for me too for some reason.
I have only done them a few times and with fairly light weight because
of all the horror stories. Everyone's body is a little different, maybe I should
give them another chance since I didn't feel any issues with them at all.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: da_vinci on March 07, 2012, 02:20:56 PM
Have been doing these for over 10years already (currently I rep with 225lb).. I'm flexible and I do extensive warm-ups before a workout so it's not just comfortable but a very good exercise. I hate smith machine presses. That thing feels way more unnatural for me personally.
 Oh, ALWAYS having a good spotter is a must imho (and tell him spot your elbows not the bar, it's a lot more comfortable feeling, at least for me).
 Tho' I know a lot of people who are unflexibe and can't go low (I prefer going as low as possible to get a good "stretch" at the negative phase).


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: sky02316 on March 07, 2012, 03:15:05 PM
If they were more effective than in front then everyone would be doing them. They are not safe, but by all means go ahead and do them. If you mess up your shoulder you are done for.

With messed up shoulders you can't do any upper body work at all.  If you want to work traps why not just do shrugs  ???


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Metabolic on March 07, 2012, 03:52:47 PM
relative weak position of the scapula over a heavy load


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Dokey111 on March 07, 2012, 03:56:03 PM
if you have a big cranium they are no good either


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Coach is Back! on March 07, 2012, 04:07:58 PM
seems like i can add this to the list of myths like "squats are bad for the knees" and "cardio kills gains"

Not a myth and squats are usually bad for knees if you stay above parallel and cardio only "kills" gains for the "natural" bodybuilder.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: da_vinci on March 07, 2012, 04:09:33 PM
If they were more effective than in front then everyone would be doing them. They are not safe, but by all means go ahead and do them. If you mess up your shoulder you are done for.

With messed up shoulders you can't do any upper body work at all.  If you want to work traps why not just do shrugs  ???

What if it feels really comfortable?
 Do an extensive warm-up (three rotations forward and three backwards is NOT a warm up lol..), have a good spotter, keep a perfect form and you won't get any injuries.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: dj181 on March 07, 2012, 04:11:15 PM
ask god


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Coach is Back! on March 07, 2012, 04:12:06 PM
ed coan did them and these russia weightlifting guys also do them even from completely on the traps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPxwuGUZBY

i never did them because of these stories


now i started doing them i feel i've been missing out

They are getting preparing for a weightlifting event. The grip the lifter was using is whats called a "snatch" grip. He is only doing this in preparation before the actual "snatch" event. In order to do this he has to stay in a "snatch balance" to complete the lift.  


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 07, 2012, 08:15:09 PM
whatever he is doing it is  a behind the neck press


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: BiGHer on March 07, 2012, 08:20:39 PM
Kevin liked them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLhfcFpBlw

Some people thought he had a good physique... lol


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jon cole on March 07, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
behind the neck press seems more easy and naturl for me than bench press.

the motion is smooth and in a straight line and i'm very powerful.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Coach is Back! on March 07, 2012, 08:28:00 PM
whatever he is doing it is  a behind the neck press

It's not a regular part of his training.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: haider on March 07, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
Not a myth and squats are usually bad for knees if you stay above parallel and cardio only "kills" gains for the "natural" bodybuilder.
what do u do instead of cardio then?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Coach is Back! on March 07, 2012, 08:34:43 PM
what do u do instead of cardio then?

Intervals.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: tonymctones on March 07, 2012, 08:44:03 PM
I think they effect some more than others, they definitely didnt do my shoulders any good thats for sure.

There are plenty of exercises that are easier on the shoulders that imho will give you just as good results.

Rock bottom dips are what helped build my shoulders as a kid, I would use these over bnp tbh


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: dj181 on March 08, 2012, 02:47:26 AM
2 of the widest fellas i ever saw NEVER did any kind of over-head pressing, but both were on a good amount of gear

they got their wide delts from benches and rows, or so they said


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 08, 2012, 07:08:57 AM
Kevin liked them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLhfcFpBlw

Some people thought he had a good physique... lol

but kevin has very wide shoulders and the people in this thread have claimed it is only bad for narrow shouldered people

anyway i get all your peoples points


i'm going to keep doing them for a while see what happens


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: BigCyp on March 08, 2012, 07:10:11 AM
They feel good because you haven't moved the pin off 1 yet


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: purenaturalstrength on March 08, 2012, 07:12:06 AM
They feel good because you haven't moved the pin off 1 yet
i read this several times i dont understand it


my english is not good enough to understand slang idioms and such


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Rammstein on March 08, 2012, 09:08:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WKw8kuN298


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Rammstein on March 08, 2012, 09:11:40 AM
http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2011/11/overhead-pressing-conundrum.html


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: BigCyp on March 08, 2012, 09:11:55 AM
i read this several times i dont understand it


my english is not good enough to understand slang idioms and such

Don't worry I was just saying you're a gaylord


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Zach Trowbridge on April 12, 2012, 05:25:23 AM
Usually it has to do with the length-tension relationship between the front and back of the torso - excessively tight pecs and lats and internal rotators, weak rhomboids and mid/lower traps and external rotators. 

It also doesn't help that a lot of guys use way too much weight and get sloppy as hell with their form.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Sadovnik on August 30, 2015, 03:40:01 PM
I got rid of smith machine started to do free weight behind the neck and my shoulders got just bigger. I think it's about that balance what the muscles has to deal with. I shortened the movement - just touch the back side of the head and up but not all the way. It feels very good and safe.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 05, 2015, 07:12:46 AM
posted before Guy does some great videos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw3r2lytys8


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: da_vinci on December 05, 2015, 11:07:35 AM
posted before Guy does some great videos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw3r2lytys8

It has a lot to do with your structure and flexibility. One of the most comfortable exercieses for me, I do full rom and the weight is crazy heavy (225lbs on a good day. Well currently only 200lb..). Been doing it for years and years, not a single ache.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on December 07, 2015, 08:57:01 AM
More slide rule text book training advice, never taking into the consideration that all men are not created equal  Might as well have  a dozen model skeletons  for display.   Also not considering the muscle inserts and bone length for each of us. This gentleman is selling a product, himself and his web site.

The Press Behind The Neck, like upright rows, is not meant for everyone, as are the full squat and DL  Some body mechanics, and bone structure, are just not adaptable to any of these movements. These two movements, the PBN and up-rights, are two of my favorite exercises and have been doing them for years.

With the Press Behind The Neck, most guys are just not flexible enough at first. Suggest a training dowel (or exercise bar) at first....just to get the feel of the movement and to warm up the area. This is a learning exercise, so add weight slowly until getting use to these.  Also just lower the bar to the around the base of the neck or upper traps. No need going any lower. Don't try to advance the weight too fast or get stuck doing more weight than you can handle. Don't lock out at the top, if wanting to use the time under tension (TUT) BB'ing method. Never get in the habit of going to failure in any of the above exercises. Can cause more problems, in the long run, than they are worth.

If after a few weeks this exercise does not feel right for you, than drop it and on to something else. Same can be said for up right rows.  

Good Luck.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Yev33 on December 07, 2015, 09:53:03 PM
I would like to bring in another perspective to this topic.  While I certaintly agree that having proper shoulder mobility is a must if you want to perform the behind the neck press, and that some people are naturally better built for it. I do think  a lot of people lose the mobility they once had due to years of traditional BB split routines.

I know that this was the case for me. And it wasn't just my shoulder mobility. When you are constantly in the state of soreness in one body part or another, your mobility decreases temporarily and if you don't regularly make sure to correct this it becomes more permanent.  How many guys can barely put a bar on their backs after chest day? How many of them end up having to grip it wider and wider as the result? This is happening all over the body to a certain degree.

I am 32 years old now and I am stronger than I have ever been, also the aches and pains I developed in my late twenties went away. I worked on my mobility and still do to some extent,  but in my opinion the most dramatic thing was going away from split routines. 


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 08, 2015, 05:53:31 AM
More slide rule text book training advice, never taking into the consideration that all men are not created equal  Might as well have  a dozen model skeletons  for display.   Also not considering the muscle inserts and bone length for each of us. This gentleman is selling a product, himself and his web site.

The Press Behind The Neck, like upright rows, is not meant for everyone, as are the full squat and DL  Some body mechanics, and bone structure, are just not adaptable to any of these movements. These two movements, the PBN and up-rights, are two of my favorite exercises and have been doing them for years.

With the Press Behind The Neck, most guys are just not flexible enough at first. Suggest a training dowel (or exercise bar) at first....just to get the feel of the movement and to warm up the area. This is a learning exercise, so add weight slowly until getting use to these.  Also just lower the bar to the around the base of the neck or upper traps. No need going any lower. Don't try to advance the weight too fast or get stuck doing more weight than you can handle. Don't lock out at the top, if wanting to use the time under tension (TUT) BB'ing method. Never get in the habit of going to failure in any of the above exercises. Can cause more problems, in the long run, than they are worth.

If after a few weeks this exercise does not feel right for you, than drop it and on to something else. Same can be said for up right rows.  

Good Luck.
what a surprise jpm knows better than a Professional. TUT you mention a lot but you know what the problem is? range of motion and with this in mind i see people doing Press behind the neck with a pitifully  small movement which is not worth much if anything. DB press hits the Delts centrally and safely and a variety of hand positions can be used, indeed great if you have shoulder issues. Front BB press with full range and "Arnold" press are much better..in my opinion. Gironda did a variation pressing front and then back just clearing the Head in the movement.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 08, 2015, 07:11:11 AM
Gironda did a variation pressing front and then back just clearing the Head in the movement.
Great for a pump but you won't get any stronger. And 99.9% of people doing any type of db or front bb press lean back much too far and turn it into an incline press.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: pestosterone on December 08, 2015, 07:12:56 AM
I do Bradford presses to warm up with the bar only before heavy OHP seated r standing never used more than a 45 lb bar behind my head. To the chin and back up in the front for me if holding a barbell


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 08, 2015, 07:20:55 AM
Great for a pump but you won't get any stronger. And 99.9% of people doing any type of db or front bb press lean back much too far and turn it into an incline press.
never seen anyone lean back 30-45 degrees to call it an incline press. If you look at a Military press and itīs form and your head position then sorry but i do not agree.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 08, 2015, 07:40:03 AM
Might also include this exercise. I have done this myself and it really hits delts very well. I also think itīs much more beneficial for most sports. Rugby, Judo.. Football and most throwing sports. The press Behind the neck might hit the Posterior(trained well in Back training) Head slightly more but the difference is marginal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR38_ZKKUCs


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 08, 2015, 08:34:24 AM
This video actually shows the Head position very well in an overhead press... regardless of people talking about Military press/overhead press. Seated or standing itīs the same. Please letīs not talk about the Heels together thing in the military press and why itīs called it. Fact is if standing you need a stable base.. i like one foot forward and one back myself. most stable position i know standing. If done seated I use one notch down from vertical. totally vertical i tend to have an unstable lower back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP3FcCMlL7w


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on December 08, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
Glad to help donny and correct his misunderstanding of shoulder training. Or any other body part training for that matter. Almost feel it's my duty to help the little chubby guy the best I can. And if he wants to borrow somethings I taught him as his own..than God Bless him.

Not having the personal hands on experience of never, ever, being in a actual real gym, donny owns much to YouTube and GB as learning aids. I can only wish him the best in his hopefully understanding of a basic workout...after all these years and thousands of his daily post on GB.

And a Good Luck to all of his efforts.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 08, 2015, 09:37:53 AM
never seen anyone lean back 30-45 degrees to call it an incline press. If you look at a Military press and itīs form and your head position then sorry but i do not agree.
So you're saying chest doesn't come into play until a person leans back to 30-45 deg?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 08, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
So you're saying chest doesn't come into play until a person leans back to 30-45 deg?
are you saying the lats do not get trained in the Front/behind the neck press? To what degree is the question . This then determins not only if it is a compound lift but to what degree it hits the target muscles. This is also why myself and some others talk about more exercises to train the muscles from angles.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: NaturalWonder83 on December 08, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
Please no belittling of members in this thread. Keep that rubbish to the gossip and opinions board.

Thanks


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 08, 2015, 05:33:47 PM
are you saying the lats do not get trained in the Front/behind the neck press? To what degree is the question . This then determins not only if it is a compound lift but to what degree it hits the target muscles. This is also why myself and some others talk about more exercises to train the muscles from angles.
So you're not going to answer the question?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: WOOO on December 09, 2015, 01:05:47 AM
Please no belittling of members in this thread. Keep that rubbish to the gossip and opinions board.

Thanks

X2


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 02:35:52 AM
Glad to help donny and correct his misunderstanding of shoulder training. Or any other body part training for that matter. Almost feel it's my duty to help the little chubby guy the best I can. And if he wants to borrow somethings I taught him as his own..than God Bless him.

Not having the personal hands on experience of never, ever, being in a actual real gym, donny owns much to YouTube and GB as learning aids. I can only wish him the best in his hopefully understanding of a basic workout...after all these years and thousands of his daily post on GB.

And a Good Luck to all of his efforts.
Stick to the discussion at hand and not insults. the standing shoulder press is not an incline press and will not train your chest to the Degree an Incline Bench will at 30-45 Degrees.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Rammstein on December 09, 2015, 07:22:32 AM
Best thing I did for my shoulders was to start seated BTNPs.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on December 09, 2015, 09:05:46 AM
Overhead pressing is a compound movement (2 or more major joints involved) and calls upon most of the upper body, including abs and the lower back/hips. . Raising the bar from just above shoulder level to overhead  also involves the traps strongly. This can also be said for the press behind the neck, with even the pecs taking part.

You would be seeing more 250-300+ behind the neck and front presses in regular workouts if guys would spend less time on the bench press  and more on pressing. Would also see much more muscle mass on the complete shoulder girdle. BB benches are not the ideal exercise for the chest, for most guy's. Though PL'ers will use the PBN to help improve their benching...seems to work well for most.

Adding different versions of overhead pressing, like push presses (bar resting on the heal of the palms give much better leverage & strength) and jerk presses. Both give exceptional power and thickness.  Can also push press and jerk press behind the neck. Both these forms of pressing may not be suited for everyone...but works for me and other lifters I have trained with.  Usually press off a PR, standing or sitting.

Sitting is great for OHP. If wanting a support position, than press on a true 90 degree (straight up & down) bench. These benches passed off at shoulder press benches are really a higher degree incline bench. The OHP and inclines do not follow the same mechanics in pressing. Can use much more weight weight with inclines, take your pick what may work best for your goals.

Good Luck.



Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 09:10:08 AM
Overhead pressing is a compound movement (2 or more major joints involved) and calls upon most of the upper body, including abs and the lower back/hips. . Raising the bar from just above shoulder level to overhead  also involves the traps strongly. This can also be said for the press behind the neck, with even the pecs taking part.

You would be seeing more 250-300+ behind the neck and front presses in regular workouts if guys would spend less time on the bench press  and more on pressing. Would also see much more muscle mass on the complete shoulder girdle. BB benches are not the ideal exercise for the chest, for most guy's. Though PL'ers will use the PBN to help improve their benching...seems to work well for most.

Adding different versions of overhead pressing, like push presses (bar resting on the heal of the palms give much better leverage & strength) and jerk presses. Both give exceptional power and thickness.  Can also push press and jerk press behind the neck. Both these forms of pressing may not be suited for everyone...but works for me and other lifters I have trained with.  Usually press off a PR, standing or sitting.

Sitting is great for OHP. If wanting a support position, than press on a true 90 degree (straight up & down) bench. These benches passed off at shoulder press benches are really a higher degree incline bench. The OHP and inclines do not follow the same mechanics in pressing. Can use much more weight weight with inclines, take your pick what may work best for your goals.

Good Luck.


so you agree the overhead press and incline press are two diffrent exercises with diffrent emphasis ?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on December 09, 2015, 10:15:30 AM
Similar, but with a different variation. The overhead, bench and incline press are a out and away from the body pushing movement.  The dip is a pushing motion but down and along side the body.

OHP and inclines share a variation of the same pushing theme, chest, delts & triceps. Actually any exercise can be termed a variation of a theme, considering the flexing of the joints involved.

If anyone wants a complete pressing workout, than the OHP, flat bench and dips might be a suggested example.

If anyone wants a complete pulling workout, than the Chins, BB row and the up right row might be suggested example.

Hand spacing, as narrow, middle or wide grip may also be applied as a variation of the same exercise. The BB curl, bench, row, etc for examples. Even a false grip or hammer grip.

Good Luck.



Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 10:36:59 AM
Similar, but with a different variation. The overhead, bench and incline press are a out and away from the body pushing movement.  The dip is a pushing motion but down and along side the body.

OHP and inclines share a variation of the same pushing theme, chest, delts & triceps. Actually any exercise can be termed a variation of a theme, considering the flexing of the joints involved.

If anyone wants a complete pressing workout, than the OHP, flat bench and dips might be a suggested example.

If anyone wants a complete pulling workout, than the Chins, BB row and the up right row might be suggested example.

Hand spacing, as narrow, middle or wide grip may also be applied as a variation of the same exercise. The BB curl, bench, row, etc for examples. Even a false grip or hammer grip.

Good Luck.


"are a out of the way pushing movement" ::) so you admit benches in all variations  are infact a total other movement?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 09, 2015, 12:01:20 PM
Stick to the discussion at hand and not insults. the standing shoulder press is not an incline press and will not train your chest to the Degree an Incline Bench will at 30-45 Degrees.
I'm the one that said people turn ohp into incline press and your response was that they couldn't do that cause the chest doesn't come into action unless the body is at 30-45 deg. Just to keep your attacks square. ;)

I could suggest an experiment but from your posts I can see if it's not posted as a youtube video you wouldn't believe it. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming ohp and inclines are the same exercises.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 12:07:49 PM
I'm the one that said people turn ohp into incline press and your response was that they couldn't do that cause the chest doesn't come into action unless the body is at 30-45 deg. Just to keep your attacks square. ;)

I could suggest an experiment but from your posts I can see if it's not posted as a youtube video you wouldn't believe it. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming ohp and inclines are the same exercises.
That was my point they are separate exercises. You should know what i am talking about as a mod on a training section.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 09, 2015, 12:11:31 PM
That was my point they are separate exercises. You should know what i am talking about as a mod on a training section.
I'm not the one that confused everyone here, nobody claimed they were the same ???
My statement stands the same, vast majority of people that ohp, especially seated, lean back way too far and bring their upper chest into the movement.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 12:13:24 PM
I'm not the one that confused everyone here, nobody claimed they were the same ???
My statement stands the same, vast majority of people that ohp, especially seated, lean back way too far and bring their upper chest into the movement.
so what Degree do you think itīs an incline press?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 09, 2015, 12:18:35 PM
so what Degree do you think itīs an incline press?
Never really measured what angle the pecs become heavily involved in the movement. Do you disagree that by leaning back the upper pecs become involved?


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 12:33:32 PM
Never really measured what angle the pecs become heavily involved in the movement. Do you disagree that by leaning back the upper pecs become involved?
I tell you what Chaos. Today or Tomorrow .. set a Bench at 30 then do a pyramid up to 45 then wait a couple of days see if you feel chest or shoulders. 


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 09, 2015, 12:37:58 PM
Standing or seated Press will not involve the upper pecs like an incline press..the argument of leaning back is  really trivial.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 09, 2015, 04:49:57 PM
I tell you what Chaos. Today or Tomorrow .. set a Bench at 30 then do a pyramid up to 45 then wait a couple of days see if you feel chest or shoulders. 
???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?

Standing or seated Press will not involve the upper pecs like an incline press..the argument of leaning back is  really trivial.
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. :)


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: WOOO on December 09, 2015, 06:43:44 PM
???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. :)


Boom.


Jpm is bang on as usual.

I don't press behind the neck anymore though. Dumbbells give me what I need but I press them standing. No bullshit that way but lots of room for controlled cheating.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on December 09, 2015, 06:49:44 PM
Muscle soreness is not always a best one way to understand which muscle group is truly getting the bulk of the work. At times, it can be misleading.

Some of these statements here (from we all know who) are  confusing, or fuzzy logic at best. The original subject matter get's way off the main point of the discussion. Trying to prove one's point (well taken or badly taken) just becomes endless chatter. Senseless really.

Benches are not a "total other movement", considering the variables and muscles influenced. , but could be termed a part of the whole for any muscle group. All with consideration of working the chest, shoulder girdle and triceps (pushing).  But benches  and squats  are "total other movements" for example.

Good Luck.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 09, 2015, 08:10:35 PM

Boom.


Jpm is bang on as usual.

I don't press behind the neck anymore though. Dumbbells give me what I need but I press them standing. No bullshit that way but lots of room for controlled cheating.
As much as I like standing db presses, I've never put consistent effort into progressing with them. I do like the seated barbell set up at my gym, back is tall up to my head.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: Donny on December 10, 2015, 03:00:47 AM
???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. :)
...and i can tell you have never seriously trained in Bodybuilding. Pitiful to watch you trying to help out you know who on here when he gets stuck.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: WOOO on December 10, 2015, 03:21:40 AM
As much as I like standing db presses, I've never put consistent effort into progressing with them. I do like the seated barbell set up at my gym, back is tall up to my head.

I find them fun but I don't see poundage increases anymore. Some weeks I get a few more reps than others... The nice thing with the standing version is that you can bring in your quads and hips for the press and then get a strict negative. The other value add is that it is a full body movement (standing with weight overhead) so the core and cardio are engaged.

From a risk perspective I feel safer. Can't go as heavy standing as seated even with cheating. Likely due to the strict angle involved and the balance required.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 10, 2015, 06:02:19 AM
I find them fun but I don't see poundage increases anymore. Some weeks I get a few more reps than others... The nice thing with the standing version is that you can bring in your quads and hips for the press and then get a strict negative. The other value add is that it is a full body movement (standing with weight overhead) so the core and cardio are engaged.

From a risk perspective I feel safer. Can't go as heavy standing as seated even with cheating. Likely due to the strict angle involved and the balance required.
Yeah. I like to throw in one arm db push presses here and there for a good mix up.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: bigmc on December 10, 2015, 07:00:48 AM
As much as I like standing db presses, I've never put consistent effort into progressing with them. I do like the seated barbell set up at my gym, back is tall up to my head.

it takes a lot of technique to go heavy on them

ive always done them seated


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: chaos on December 13, 2015, 10:02:52 AM
it takes a lot of technique to go heavy on them

ive always done them seated
Most people have trouble with balance cleaning the dbs up for standing. Funny cause after I do them I always see younger guys tryng them a few days later.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: B_B_C on December 13, 2015, 11:02:46 AM
if you have a big cranium they are no good either

as there are loads of big though not well employed craniums on this site little harm will result


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: oldtimer1 on October 04, 2016, 06:34:05 PM
I've done behind the neck since I was about 15 to about 50 plus. I always thought it kept the joint healthy because you do need shoulder flexibility to do a full range of motion. When I got to about 55 I can't do them anymore without a lot of pain.  Front presses cause no pain and dumbbells just a occasional pain. I fear my one shoulder in particular is wearing out.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: snarled on October 05, 2016, 12:44:57 PM
Same story with upright rows, don't overdo the ROM or go retardedly heavy and you'll be fine.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jon cole on October 10, 2016, 01:28:09 AM
I have been doing seated behing the neck press since 2000. Heaviest load was 245lbs for 5 reps for partial rep and complete range of motion for 10 reps at 180lbs and 1 rep at 225.
My shoulder are ok, i never injuried myself with bnp, but i did it several time with bench press.

When i stop doing them for few week, not only my shoulder size shrink but the overall size of my upper body, especially upper chest.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on June 09, 2018, 07:40:36 AM
Press Behind The Neck/Behind The Neck Presses......an excellent and productive movement. Sorry to see a great exercise misunderstood and get blamed for whatever. This would also include Upright Rows.

 When new to this exercise some are just not flexible in the shoulder girdle, and try to rush the weight they use on the bar (too much, too soon). Actually most are not flexible enough for overhead movements of any kind in the first place, including BB'ers and PL'ers.. And don't take the extra time for an extended warm-up.

The lifter in the video clip is using a snatch grip (collar to collar), as noted before. This Russian (I guess) lifter has probably been doing this wide hand spacing since his early teen years. For the average BB'er new to the movement, a more middle grip position would be suggested. Go light first to learn the exercise and how the body reacts to it. Some guy's are not made for certain exercises. Like so many who do benches and complain about this or that injury or extreme joint soreness probably should not be doing serious benching at all. Their just not designed for that exercise (bone leverage, muscle inserts, balanced power generation, etc).

The normal ROM , once a good state of flexibility is achieved, is to lower the bar to the nap of the neck or the middle traps area. Lowering to ear level might be better for a serious BB's because more TUT (Time Under Tension ) can be applied , and if no lockout is at the top position.

I've SS'ed the PBN with upright row, an excellent combo for me. May not work for others but I never had any problems with either. I would not suggest that combo to other lifters though...just what works for me.

Good Luck.

.


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: jpm101 on June 09, 2018, 09:32:55 AM
Just to note:

Heavy PL'ers and others will sometimes include behind the neck presses in serious workouts. Seems to help the over all performance of their bench presses.

Good Luck. 


Title: Re: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?
Post by: IroNat on June 09, 2018, 11:35:40 AM
Agree with JPM101.

Too heavy too soon is bad.

It takes a while for the connective tissues to strengthen and flexibility to develop.