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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:16:33 PM



Title: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:16:33 PM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

And you laugh at religious people?

Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

Discuss.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:18:27 PM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

And you laugh at religious people?

Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

Discuss.

GOD IS DEAD!

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?
—Nietzsche


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: dynamike on June 16, 2012, 09:20:47 PM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

And you laugh at religious people?

Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".



Discuss.

This.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:21:12 PM
Nietzche is dead.
 ~God


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:22:17 PM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

And you laugh at religious people?

Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

Discuss.
The laws of nature themselves tells us that not only can the universe have popped into existence like a proton and have required nothing in terms of energy but also that it is possible that nothing caused the big bang, You can't get to a time before the big bang because there was no before the big bang. We have finally found something that doesn't have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. This means there is no possibility of a Creator because there is no time for a Creator to have existed."

Since time itself began at the moment of the big bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Schmoff on June 16, 2012, 09:25:04 PM
why I bang your mom

your mom always says, "oh, big bang! oh, my god!"



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:25:50 PM
The laws of nature themselves tells us that not only can the universe have popped into existence like a proton and have required nothing in terms of energy but also that it is possible that nothing caused the big bang," You can't get to a time before the big bang because there was no before the big bang. We have finally found something that doesn't have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. This means there is no possibility of a Creator because there is no time for a Creator to have existed."

Since time itself began at the moment of the big bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything

I find your lack of knowledge of basic quantum physics disturbing. Educate yourself and then comment.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:26:28 PM
I find your lack of knowledge of basic quantum physics disturbing. Educate yourself and then comment.
HA HA, I quoted Stephen Hawkings, sorry you find him so ignorant!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7VTdzuY7Y


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:28:15 PM
I quoted Stephen Hawkings, sorry you find him so ignorant!

I do. Apology accepted.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: LATS on June 16, 2012, 09:28:54 PM
well another question is even if a god exists does this mean we have eternal life? why would the presence of a god mean that we exist after we die? so even if there is a god we may very well cease to exist after death.. so whats the point and worshiping one? i am by no means saying this is the fact since realistically no one knows.. but to assume that the presence of a god automatically means we have a shot at a forever after is silly.. live a good life and let the chips fall were they may..


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:30:12 PM
well another question is even if a god exists does this mean we have eternal life? why would the presence of a god mean that we exist after we die? so even if there is a god we may very well cease to exist after death.. so whats the point and worshiping one? i am by no means saying this is the fact since realistically no one knows.. but to assume that the presence of a god automatically means we have a shot at a forever after is silly.. live a good life and let the chips fall were they may..

You clowns really need to read the fuck up. Seriously.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:31:28 PM
I do. Apology accepted.
Feel free, to offer up your accomplishments next to Stephen Hawkings, I am sure a Getbigger could easily accomplish what the Fool Stephen Hawkings has been able to achieve, all the while being limited by a severe handicap.

Field: Applied Mathematics, Theoretical Physics

Schooling: University of Oxford, University of Cambridge

Key Achievements: Black Holes, Theoretical Cosmology, Quantum Gravity

Notable Honors: Eddington Medal (1975), Hughes Medal of the Royal Society (1976), Albert Einstein Medal (1979), Order of the British Empire (1982), Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society (1985), Member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (1986), Wolf Prize in Physics (1988), Prince of Asturias Award (1989), Companion of Honour (1989), Julius Edgar Lilienfeld Prize of the American Physical Society (1999), Michelson Morley Award of Case Western Reserve University (2003), Copley Medal of the Royal Society (2006), 12 Honorary Degrees, Member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. Cosmos Award from the Planetary Society (2010)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: freespirit on June 16, 2012, 09:32:10 PM
If there is actually a God, than why would he/she want to be worshipped? A real God would NOT want that of course. So why do religious people worship a God? Because they are brainwashed and don't know how to think for themselves.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:35:05 PM
If there is actually a God, than why would he/she want to be worshipped? A real God would NOT want that of course. So why do religious people worship a God? Because they are brainwashed and don't know how to think for themselves.

Who said God wants to be worshiped? Some man somewhere? Again...read the fuck up.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:35:54 PM


Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

I believe Mao Tse Tung when he said "Religion is POISON"


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:36:35 PM
Oh..and E-Kul..read 'The Black Swan" and quit playing the clown.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:43:16 PM
Oh..and E-Kul..read 'The Black Swan" and quit playing the clown.
Are you suggesting that Hawkings theory is a black swan theory, this is ridiculous, Black Swan theory suggests that humans' tend to find simplistic explanations for rare and unpredictable events.  Hawkins theory would be considered far from simple, it is a deeply complex body of work that has come to life after thousands of years of knowledge piled one on top of the other - far from a simple - as a matter of fact it is the most plausible scientific theory yet to be developed - far more valid than just making up fairy tales!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:46:11 PM
Are you suggesting that Hawkings theory is a black swan theory, this is ridiculous, Black Swan theory suggests that humans' tend to find simplistic explanations for rare and unpredictable events.  Hawkins theory would be considered far from simple, it is a deeply complex body of work that has come to life after thousands of years of knowledge piled one on top of the other - far from a simple - as a matter of fact it is the most plausible scientific theory yet to be developed - far more valid than just making up fairy tales!

I'm not suggesting that. Read the goddamn book. And....here's a little clue: Hawking could be WRONG.  :-*


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 09:51:05 PM
I'm not suggesting that. Read the goddamn book. And....here's a little clue: Hawking could be WRONG.  :-*
Oh Yes, I thought that what you were getting at - I know Hawking could be wrong, that's why its called a Theory!  Hawkings didn't offer up his conclusions as fact, but the best science can offer for now, it's a starting point, and I don't believe Hawkings is done with the problem, he is just getting going, and he is setting the groundwork for future exploration of other great minds.  Hawkins himself considers himself an Agnostic, meaning perhaps THE TRUTH cannot be known with our teeny weeny brains!

I don't have time to read any more than what I already do, and some of that stuff is really heavy and beyond my little brain!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 09:54:42 PM
Got some sad news for you E-Kul..

I've read all of Hawkings books.

Average GetBigger with common sense could've wrote them. I was not impressed.

If you setting your flag on the Hawking hill...well, that dog not gonna hunt.

Pick another "hero".


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 10:12:27 PM
Got some sad news for you E-Kul..

I've read all of Hawkings books.

Average GetBigger with common sense could've wrote them. I was not impressed.

If you setting your flag on the Hawking hill...well, that dog not gonna hunt.

Pick another "hero".
Your my Hero, NOW!

but I do like these words by Nagarjuna :

The gods are all eternal scoundrels
Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
Those who serve them and venerate them
May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
Therefore the wise man believes them not
The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
Therefore the wise man many not rely on gods.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:19:28 PM
God of the gaps is a type of theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. The term was invented by Christian theologians not to discredit theism but rather to point out the fallacy of relying on teleological arguments for God's existence.[1]



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:19:57 PM
Your my Hero, NOW!

but I do like these words by Nagarjuna :

The gods are all eternal scoundrels
Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
Those who serve them and venerate them
May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
Therefore the wise man believes them not
The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
Therefore the wise man many not rely on gods.


good for you..you've managed to mask your ignorance of quantum psychics  so far....


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on June 16, 2012, 10:20:34 PM
Will Brink needs a man bra and Pat Banya spends too much time talking about things coming out of China


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:21:26 PM
God of the gaps is a type of theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. The term was invented by Christian theologians not to discredit theism but rather to point out the fallacy of relying on teleological arguments for God's existence.[1]


Hi idiot.
If you can't speak quantum mechanics..gtfo. OK retard?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:25:15 PM
Hi idiot.
If you can't speak quantum mechanics..gtfo. OK retard?


(http://files.myopera.com/JanetB/albums/1735061/Creationist%20Logic.jpeg)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:26:35 PM
Hi idiot.
If you can't speak quantum mechanics..gtfo. OK retard?

Hey man, Christian are all about love and acceptance. God would not approve of you cursing and calling us names. Lead the good life, man.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: the trainer on June 16, 2012, 10:31:44 PM
In this thread we have a bunch of dumb fucks trying to be intelligent speaking of things that they dont know of and they have no proof of the things they say, but i will say one thing to you professors there are no accidents everything happens for a reason, now dont think of god as a person like a getbigger who post crap on this site but as a being of force and power that creates.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
Hey man, Christian are all about love and acceptance. God would not approve of you cursing and calling us names. Lead the good life, man.

Never, not once, anywhere..did I say I was a Christian.

Your lame ass predictable little insult failed, didn't it?

You're a pathetic piece of shit. Try harder asshole.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:35:13 PM
In this thread we have a bunch of dumb fucks trying to be intelligent speaking of things that they dont know of and they have no proof of the things they say, but i will say one thing to you professors there are no accidents everything happens for a reason, now dont think of god as a person like a getbigger who post crap on this site but as a being of force and power that creates.

That pretty much sounds like most getbiggers  :o


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:35:59 PM
Never, not once, anywhere..did I say I was a Christian.

Your lame ass predictable little insult failed, didn't it?

You're a pathetic piece of shit. Try harder asshole.

Wow, those words really hurt. How will I ever go on.

Hey man, you have to accept it into your heart.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:36:52 PM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

Christ! Not another one... First of all, there's no such thing as "layman quantum mechanics" anymore than there is a such a thing as "brain surgery for dummies." As for your recommendation, I would recommend you actually take a couple of years of graduate level mathematics and physics courses to gain the proper foundation to begin to discuss quantum mechanics.


It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So much idiocy in so few words - it's almost painful. So basically your argument (and I use the term loosely) is: "science can't answer the question 'what was going on before the Big Bang" and that's no different than saying 'HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE'?" Really? You see no difference in saying: "we do not have the answer" to saying "by vigorous hand-waving, goddidit!" Perhaps you should stop reading about quantum mechanics and read a bit about basic logic, or take an introductory course at your local Community College.

I'll also add that your statement assumes that the question "what was going on before the Big Bang" makes sense... Time and temporal causality are properties of the Universe we exist in. The very word "before" is meaningless in the context you're trying to use it. You might as well be asking: "what was going on potatoes the Big Bang?"


So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

Actually, not all non God-fearing heathens say the same thing. But that's not important. What's important is what science says. And it says two things: (a) the term before the Big Bang is meaningless and (b) we do not know the answer to the question, even if we try to conjure up what the term should mean.


And you laugh at religious people?

Sometimes. But, I must admit that I laugh more at people who claim to "read into quantum physics and the zero point field" and, in the same sentence, demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the fundamentals of science and logic.


Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

No doubt - the question is what house is that?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:37:58 PM
Wow, those words really hurt. How will I ever go on.

Hey man, you have to accept it into your heart.

I WILL!! SF!! i really will!!

but, doesn't change the fact that you're a piece of shit.

on the good side, i've accepted it in my heart!! :)  ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 10:39:14 PM
good for you..you've managed to mask your ignorance of quantum psychics  so far....
You were asking who believes in God! In regards to quantam mechanics and their discoveries, they are thousands of years too late, the buddhists have been saying this for centuries, that the Universe appears to be a dynamic web of interconnected and inseparable energy patterns, implying that we are not separated they way most people think, everything is interconnected, and separateness does not in fact exist.  Nothing NEW here Einstein!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:39:34 PM
Christ! Not another one... First of all, there's no such thing as "layman quantum mechanics" anymore than there is a such a thing as "brain surgery for dummies." As for your recommendation, I would recommend you actually take a couple of years of graduate level mathematics and physics courses to gain the proper foundation to begin to discuss quantum mechanics.


So much idiocy in so few words - it's almost painful. So basically your argument (and I use the term loosely) is: "science can't answer the question 'what was going on before the Big Bang" and that's no different than saying 'HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE'?" Really? You see no difference in saying: "we do not have the answer" to saying "by vigorous hand-waving, goddidit!" Perhaps you should stop reading about quantum mechanics and read a bit about basic logic, or take an introductory course at your local Community College.

I'll also add that your statement assumes that the question "what was going on before the Big Bang" makes sense... Time and temporal causality are properties of the Universe we exist in. The very word "before" is meaningless in the context you're trying to use it. You might as well be asking: "what was going on potatoes the Big Bang?"


Actually, not all non God-fearing heathens say the same thing. But that's not important. What's important is what science says. And it says two things: (a) the term before the Big Bang is meaningless and (b) we do not know the answer to the question, even if we try to conjure up what the term should mean.


Sometimes. But, I must admit that I laugh more at people who claim to "read into quantum physics and the zero point field" and, in the same sentence, demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the fundamentals of science and logic.


No doubt - the question is what house is that?



Yay! A real guy.

So..before big bang..meaningless? Do tell.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
I WILL!! SF!! i really will!!

but, doesn't change the fact that you're a piece of shit.

on the good side, i've accepted it in my heart!! :)  ;D

You can get mad all you want, and type all the curse words you want, its still the internet. And words over the internet make me laugh.

Plus, I think this religion topic has been discussed a billion times over. Plus, there is a specific place for them. Should have posted it there.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:41:45 PM
So..before big bang..meaningless? Do tell.

I already "told" in my previous post, which you, obviously, didn't read.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:42:02 PM
You can get mad all you want, and type all the curse words you want, its still the internet. And words over the internet make me laugh.

Plus, I think this religion topic has been discussed a billion times over. Plus, there is a specific place for them. Should have posted it there.

thanks little buddy!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:42:41 PM
I already "told" in my previous post, which you, obviously, didn't read.


Oh, I read it.

Before big bang..meaningless..

do tell..


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:44:17 PM
thanks little buddy!

No problem. I will vacate this thread, as your bad ass avatar of skulls and knives is pretty threatening and scaring me.  :-\


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:45:01 PM
No problem. I will vacate this thread, as your bad ass avatar of skulls and knives is pretty threatening and scaring me.  :-\

its just an avatar lil guy! if i saw you in real life, i'd buy you an ice cream!!  ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:46:57 PM
its just an avatar lil guy! if i saw you in real life, i'd buy you an ice cream!!  ;D

Zack Morris Approved.

No problem, lil guy.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:48:10 PM
Zack Morris Approved.

No problem, lil guy.

wow! golly! thankz so much zack!!! gee willikers!!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:48:49 PM
In this thread we have a bunch of dumb fucks trying to be intelligent speaking of things that they dont know of and they have no proof of the things they say, but i will say one thing to you professors there are no accidents everything happens for a reason

Let's play the platitude game! Is it "event → reason" where → means "causes" or that "reason → event"?


now dont think of god as a person like a getbigger who post crap on this site but as a being of force and power that creates.

OK... I did think of god as a force. But all the forces I know are caused by something. What's the cause of the Godforce?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:49:23 PM
wow! golly! thankz so much zack!!! gee willikers!!

(http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photos/hewett-bw1.jpg)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:50:10 PM
Oh, I read it.

Before big bang..meaningless..

do tell..

Tell what? The term "before" implies a causal relationship. Causal relationships are a property of the Universe, and it's meaningless to discuss them outside of the framework of the Universe.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:53:09 PM
Tell what? The term "before" implies a causal relationship. Causal relationships are a property of the Universe, and it's meaningless to discuss them outside of the framework of the Universe.

meaningless == "smart guy answer" when he doesn't know what the fuck is going on,.

big bang.
before big bang.
what was going on?
answer


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:55:52 PM
meaningless == "smart guy answer" when he doesn't know what the fuck is going on,.

A smart guy answers "I don't know" when he doesn't know. That answer is the foundation of knowledge.


big bang.

STUFF GO BOOM!


before big bang.

Repeating the words won't magically make them have meaning.


what was going on?

What's going on when?


answer

If I can, I will. But what exactly, am I supposed to answer?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 10:55:53 PM
Let's play the platitude game! Is it "event → reason" where → means "causes" or that "reason → event"?


OK... I did think of god as a force. But all the forces I know are caused by something. What's the cause of the Godforce?
To suggest that God was the result of some Cause, puts you in an endless loop, because you will always ask what caused the force that created the godforce and so on it goes indefinitely  If you answered that some other force created the Godforce, well the obvious question after that is "What created that"!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 10:56:41 PM
To suggest that God was the result of some Cause, puts you in an endless loop, because you will always ask what caused the force that created the godforce and so on it goes indefinitely  If you answered that some other force created the Godforce, well the obvious question after that is "What created that"!

You ruined the platitudes game E-Kul!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
To suggest that God was the result of some Cause, puts you in an endless loop, because you will always ask what caused the force that created the godforce and so on it goes indefinitely  If you answered that some other force created the Godforce, well the obvious question after that is "What created that"!

An infinite regression.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:58:02 PM
Let's play the platitude game! Is it "event → reason" where → means "causes" or that "reason → event"?


OK... I did think of god as a force. But all the forces I know are caused by something. What's the cause of the Godforce?

What is the cause for the Godforce? Or, is it "meaningless"?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 10:58:52 PM
An infinite regression.
It's called "recursion".


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:02:47 PM
What is the cause for the Godforce? Or, is it "meaningless"?

I don't know. Some guy asked me to imagine God as a force. I did. But, having a rudimentary understanding of physics I know that forces aren't uncaused. So surely a God that's a force is caused by something. So, I was asking the guy who asked me to imagine God as a force what caused this "God" that's a force.


It's called "recursion".

Actually no: recursion requires a base case. It's called "infinite regress"


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:04:24 PM
It's called "recursion".

The regress argument (also known as the diallelus (Latin < Greek di allelon "through or by means of one another")) is a problem in epistemology and, in general, a problem in any situation where a statement has to be justified.

According to this argument, any proposition requires a justification. However, any justification itself requires support. This means that any proposition whatsoever can be endlessly (infinitely) questioned, like a child who asks "why?" over and over again.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:05:10 PM
I don't know. Some guy asked me to imagine God as a force. I did. But, having a rudimentary understanding of physics I know that forces aren't uncaused. So surely a God that's a force is caused by something. So, I was asking the guy who asked me to imagine God as a force what caused this "God" that's a force.


Actually no: recursion requires a base case. It's called "infinite regress"

Thank you. I knew I was right  :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:06:37 PM
I don't know. Some guy asked me to imagine God as a force. I did. But, having a rudimentary understanding of physics I know that forces aren't uncaused. So surely a God that's a force is caused by something. So, I was asking the guy who asked me to imagine God as a force what caused this "God" that's a force.


Actually no: recursion requires a base case. It's called "infinite regress"

Wow! Looks like you have God all figured out! Alert the news and let them know...you'll be remembered as one of the greatest humans of all time as you have pretty much shit canned all religions. What a great guy!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:08:32 PM
The regress argument (also known as the diallelus (Latin < Greek di allelon "through or by means of one another")) is a problem in epistemology and, in general, a problem in any situation where a statement has to be justified.

According to this argument, any proposition requires a justification. However, any justification itself requires support. This means that any proposition whatsoever can be endlessly (infinitely) questioned, like a child who asks "why?" over and over again.

OMG...wowwwwwwwww..you guys taking it (pardon the phrase) biblical to the meaning...OK....duly noted.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:08:44 PM
Wow! Looks like you have God all figured out! Alert the news and let them know...you'll be remembered as one of the greatest humans of all time as you have pretty much shit canned all religions. What a great guy!

I do? Shit, I knew I was special and now everyone else will know it too! But, uhm... just so we're on the same page, what exactly, do you claim I figured out?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: the trainer on June 16, 2012, 11:08:59 PM
The power of god is within all of us we are our own worse enemies we are the ones who lose control get frustrated and say fuck this shit i dont want to do it anymore that is why we fail.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:09:55 PM
The power of god is within all of us we are our own worse enemies we are the ones who lose control get frustrated and say fuck this shit i dont want to do it anymore that is why we fail.

Hooray for meaningless mumbo-jumbo!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:10:00 PM
OMG...wowwwwwwwww..you guys taking it (pardon the phrase) biblical to the meaning...OK....duly noted.

No, I was just stating what it was called. You're the one who came in and said I was wrong and tried to provide an alternative answer.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: the trainer on June 16, 2012, 11:11:05 PM
Hooray for meaningless mumbo-jumbo!

Oh please i am sure you have given up on shit many times in your life you know what i am talking about that is why only 1% of the world has real money.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:11:42 PM
I do? Shit, I knew I was special and now everyone else will know it too! But, uhm... just so we're on the same page, what exactly, do you claim I figured out?

We aren't on same page. You smugly turn to science and deny God, while I believe in His/Her existence.

How is that same page?

Oh, and the fact that I believe in God, will result in smug put downs, etc. by you.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:12:18 PM
We aren't on same page. You smugly turn to science and deny God, while I believe in His/Her existence.

How is that same page?

Oh, and the fact that I believe in God, will result in smug put downs, etc. by you.

Daddy8ball, are you trolling?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:13:10 PM
Oh please i am sure you have given up on shit many times in your life you know what i am talking about that is why only 1% of the world has real money.

??? Wha...?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:13:42 PM
Daddy8ball, are you trolling?

If I were, 3 pages aint too bad..but I'm not.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:13:52 PM
??? Wha...?

yes, a very confusing post  :-\


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 16, 2012, 11:14:32 PM
If I were, 3 pages aint too bad..but I'm not.

Hmmm, the last post wreaked of sarcasm.

Anyway, go on about your business. Its fun watching threads like this  :) :)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:17:10 PM
Hmmm, the last post wreaked of sarcasm.

Anyway, go on about your business. Its fun watching threads like this  :) :)

If your logic had any merit, it would have won out in eons past..don't you think? Your arguments are not new. You present no unique insight. If you're argument was a "winning" argument, don't you think we'd know by now?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:20:23 PM
We aren't on same page.

You don't say?!?


You smugly turn to science and deny God, while I believe in His/Her existence.

Yeah. But hey, at least I know quantum mechanics. And not just the "layman" kind ;D


How is that same page?

It's a quantum page. Until the wave function collapses we both are and aren't on the page.


Oh, and the fact that I believe in God, will result in smug put downs, etc. by you.

You're confused. I don't put you down because you believe in God. Your beliefs are your own business. I put you down for a very different reason: for your ridiculous layman quantum mechanics claims, your poor understanding of basic concepts like temporal causality and your silly failed attempt to pass yourself off as a scientist.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:23:09 PM
You don't say?!?


Yeah. But hey, at least I know quantum mechanics. And not just the "layman" kind ;D


It's a quantum page. Until the wave function collapses we both are and aren't on the page.


You're confused. I don't put you down because you believe in God. Your beliefs are your own business. I put you down for a very different reason: for your ridiculous layman quantum mechanics claims, your poor understanding of basic concepts like temporal causality and your silly failed attempt to pass yourself off as a scientist.

You were good until you reached into the part where I tried to "pass myself off as a scientists".

Seriously? You're seriously going with that?

And throwing out words willy nilly like "silly" and "ridiculous" might pass with the general public, but c'mon..this is GetBig..they'll see thru that....lol


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 16, 2012, 11:24:37 PM
You were good until you reached into the part where I tried to "pass myself off as a scientists".

Seriously? You're seriously going with that?

And throwing out words willy nilly like "silly" and "ridiculous" might pass with the general public, but c'mon..this is GetBig..they'll see thru that....lol

That's getbig for you ;) Now excuse me. It's 12:30AM on a Sunday and the gym is calling!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: bigmc on June 16, 2012, 11:25:18 PM
most of the hawkins stuff is prerecorded

never trust a robot


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 16, 2012, 11:25:48 PM
Who said God wants to be worshiped? Some man somewhere? Again...read the fuck up.
You're the smartest person in the history of the world.

All those who disagree with you are stupid and inferior.

And you've read more books than the history of mankind combined.

I'm going to read the fuck up.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
That's getbig for you ;) Now excuse me. It's 12:30AM on a Sunday and the gym is calling!
Yes, and after 20 beers, I feel the need to retire!

God help your silly ass when I'm sober and can type.

(I'm not kidding)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 16, 2012, 11:27:31 PM
You're the smartest person in the history of the world.

All those who disagree with you are stupid and inferior.

And you've read more books than the history of mankind combined.

I'm going to read the fuck up.

I think you're being sarcastic!  :o


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 16, 2012, 11:29:18 PM
Oh please i am sure you have given up on shit many times in your life you know what i am talking about that is why only 1% of the world has real money.
That is definitely not why only 1% of the world own all the wealth!  The 1% have controlled the masses for centuries, even interbreeding keeping there money within a tight knit group, those that don't go along with it, get tossed out of the game.  The wealth is carefully handed from one generation to the next!  Crazy that you think the elite EARNED their wealth through hard work and not giving up - The now dead, once richest man in Australia hit the nail on the head when he said "The secret to success is being born into the right family!"


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tapeworm on June 16, 2012, 11:42:23 PM
It's called "recursion".

Shit was SO cash.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Fortress on June 16, 2012, 11:51:46 PM
I certainly do not.

And who's to say anything started at all? Perhaps it just always was.

Fuckin' fairy tales.  ::)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 17, 2012, 12:20:00 AM
That is definitely not why only 1% of the world own all the wealth!  The 1% have controlled the masses for centuries, even interbreeding keeping there money within a tight knit group, those that don't go along with it, get tossed out of the game.  The wealth is carefully handed from one generation to the next!  Crazy that you think the elite EARNED their wealth through hard work and not giving up - The now dead, once richest man in Australia hit the nail on the head when he said "The secret to success is being born into the right family!"
Poor little victim.

Is the man keeping you down?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 17, 2012, 12:47:03 AM
i believe in your mom


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 17, 2012, 12:51:46 AM
i believe in your mom
Your mom believes in me - God, Jesus's dad


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Croatian on June 17, 2012, 01:10:51 AM
In which one ?, supposedly there is a list of God's, about 3000 gods or so !.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: James28 on June 17, 2012, 02:16:49 AM
No I don't. I also think you're mentally ill if you do. I think you've lost all grasp on reality and should not be let near children. In fact, I feel embarrassed for Christians. I expect the mud people to be into their religions since they're still developing as humans, but whites should know better. I cringe when I see a sports star praise 'God' in an interview. Immediately I cast this person off as mentally unstable and very impressionable.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: outby43 on June 17, 2012, 02:32:32 AM
In which one ?, supposedly there is a list of God's, about 3000 gods or so !.

Romans and Etruscans had a God for everything.  What happened to all of those people?  During those times women would sacrifice their newborns on an altar to appease the Gods. Are they rotting in hell for not knowing about that Jesus character and his drug induced visions?

After studying Civilization it became really clear that religion is all BULLSHIT.  If it makes someone a better person to live by a code then cool, but when you put fear in your kids about hell and feed them stories of resurrection and all of these bat shit crazy feats then you have failed as a parent.  Life is not a fantasy world.  Just observe the facts and it should be clear to those not mentally challenged.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 02:52:27 AM
Poor little victim.

Is the man keeping you down?


Not just me, 99% of the worlds population are being screwed hard in the arse by the elite, especially your Mum, although i heard she loves it and is all for the NWO!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 02:56:49 AM
I cringe when I see a sports star praise 'God' in an interview. Immediately I cast this person off as mentally unstable and very impressionable.
Especially the trend amongst currrent UFC fighters, thanking Jesus and all that shit! funny thing is, Jesus never gets any praise after they cop an ass whooping!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: James28 on June 17, 2012, 03:01:01 AM
Yea, Lance Armstrong pretty much told God to fuck off and he still became the greatest tour cyclist ever. It literally is only a crutch for the weak. It's nothing more or less than that. I don't really know any Christians any more but the once I do know are invariably stupid and ignorant.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 03:04:44 AM
Yea, Lance Armstrong pretty much told God to fuck off and he still became the greatest tour cyclist ever. It literally is only a crutch for the weak. It's nothing more or less than that. I don't really know any Christians any more but the once I do know are invariably stupid and ignorant.

LOL

What a load of bollocks.

Religion a crutch for the weak? I suppose people like Tony Blair, Ronald Reagan, George Bush were pitiable, powerless weaklings, eh?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 03:19:08 AM
No I don't. I also think you're mentally ill if you do. I think you've lost all grasp on reality and should not be let near children. In fact, I feel embarrassed for Christians. I expect the mud people to be into their religions since they're still developing as humans, but whites should know better. I cringe when I see a sports star praise 'God' in an interview. Immediately I cast this person off as mentally unstable and very impressionable.

Ha, more bollocks.

Let's label everything that irritates us "mental illness" so as to neutralise it.

Ain't gonna happen.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 03:24:11 AM
LOL

What a load of bollocks.

Religion a crutch for the weak? I suppose people like Tony Blair, Ronald Reagan, George Bush were pitiable, powerless weaklings, eh?
If you are talking physically and personally - yes very weak individuals, I could take out all those fools in unarmed combat without raising a sweat - as for power granted to them by the NWO - yes, in that sense they had power, but still were very weak compared to the puppet masters that control them.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 17, 2012, 03:28:26 AM
Your mom believes in me - God, Jesus's dad

yes you are a god to many getbiggers moms


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 03:30:36 AM
If you are talking physically and personally - yes very weak individuals, I could take out all those fools in unarmed combat without raising a sweat - as for power granted to them by the NWO - yes, in that sense they had power, but still were very weak compared to the puppet masters that control them.

ahahaha, you could take them out in "unarmed combat", spoken like a true caveman bro.

Please do go on- who are those puppet masters? :)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 03:32:54 AM


Please do go on- who are those puppet masters? :)

I heard it was your mother - apparently her vagina is a portal to a shadow dimension where reptilian overlords control this world !


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 03:34:22 AM
U mad bro

4chan herp derp

Hurr durr Green Berets

Come at me bro [image]image[/image]


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 17, 2012, 03:46:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bch1_Ep5M1s


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 17, 2012, 04:41:41 AM
You clowns really need to read the fuck up. Seriously.
You are the one who sounds ignorant.  The only thing that anyone has on the subject of religion, are opinions.  You sound like you have all the answers.  Maybe we should worship you?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: YngiweRhoads on June 17, 2012, 04:56:25 AM
No I don't. I also think you're mentally ill if you do. I think you've lost all grasp on reality and should not be let near children. In fact, I feel embarrassed for Christians. I expect the mud people to be into their religions since they're still developing as humans, but whites should know better. I cringe when I see a sports star praise 'God' in an interview. Immediately I cast this person off as mentally unstable and very impressionable.

THIS

Or something approximating this assertion. I'd elaborate but I'm on the run.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: che on June 17, 2012, 05:00:25 AM
''Maybe God didnt always exist. I actually think that he created himself. which implies that there was a period of non-existence, and then god created himself... got lonely, and created existence.''

                                                                                                       TBOMBZ



END OF THE THREAD



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: _bruce_ on June 17, 2012, 05:02:02 AM
Absolutely.
I also believe in magic/angels.
To each his own.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: YngiweRhoads on June 17, 2012, 05:02:47 AM
''Maybe God didnt always exist. I actually think that he created himself. which implies that there was a period of non-existence, and then god created himself... got lonely, and created existence.''

                                                                                                       TBOMBZ



END OF THE THREAD



HAHA!

 ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 17, 2012, 05:03:54 AM
''Maybe God didnt always exist. I actually think that he created himself. which implies that there was a period of non-existence, and then god created himself... got lonely, and created existence.''

                                                                                                       TBOMBZ



END OF THE THREAD



LOL ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 17, 2012, 05:04:31 AM
quantum mechanics is rather exclusively speculation.

What? What do you base this ridiculous assertion on? Do you have any background in physics that qualifies you to offer an opinion on the subject? Do you even understand the subject to begin with?


but, something created everything, whatever it was.

What do you base this on? Why did that something not need to be created?


thatll be "god".

No it won't.


the bible is misleading, much sounds made up or impossible, but there is a creating force i think.

What you think is irrelevant. The question is what you can support logically. And you cannot logically support a god based on the proposition "something exists". Besides this "creating force" stuff is useless: it's a vacuous definition. You might as well define god to be a "oofla baloopla doopla"


someone said stephen hawkings...
just because stephen hawkins dont believe in a god  doesnt make it so, how can he definitely conclude that?he cant, hes speculating.
look at hawkings, if i looked like that id have trouble believing in a god too

Right... Stephen Hawking is bitter and doesn't believe in God because he has ALS.  ::)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: PJim on June 17, 2012, 05:05:36 AM
.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: jr on June 17, 2012, 05:08:06 AM
Trying to understand how the universe emerged from nothingness, for no particular reason, with its specific and peculiar physical laws and particles, which eventually over time created complex lifeforms with something called consciousness, raises cortisol which is catabolic to muscle tissue.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 17, 2012, 05:08:33 AM
Fucking HALLELUJA....remember rolling a cigerette from a bed side Bible in a Hotel room..guess i won´t be one of the chosen ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: wes on June 17, 2012, 05:27:15 AM
Fucking HALLELUJA....remember rolling a cigerette from a bed side Bible in a Hotel room..guess i won´t be one of the chosen ;D
Sounds like something I`d have done!!   LOL  :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 17, 2012, 05:37:09 AM
Sounds like something I`d have done!!   LOL  :D

Wes, you may be living proof that a God exists. I mean, the fact that youre still alive at your age is some kind of miracle  :o :o ;D ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Ronnie Rep on June 17, 2012, 05:53:28 AM
Oh Yes, I thought that what you were getting at - I know Hawking could be wrong, that's why its called a Theory!  Hawkings didn't offer up his conclusions as fact, but the best science can offer for now, it's a starting point, and I don't believe Hawkings is done with the problem, he is just getting going, and he is setting the groundwork for future exploration of other great minds.  Hawkins himself considers himself an Agnostic, meaning perhaps THE TRUTH cannot be known with our teeny weeny brains!

I don't have time to read any more than what I already do, and some of that stuff is really heavy and beyond my little brain!
Well put!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: wes on June 17, 2012, 05:54:34 AM
Wes, you may be living proof that a God exists. I mean, the fact that youre still alive at your age is some kind of miracle  :o :o ;D ;D
I`m a living walking talking fucking miracle bro.

All bullshit aside,I have a hell of a time believing in the concept of God, but after living my former lifestyle,I have to think that somebody was looking out for me............all I`ll say is even with drinking and drugs aside,I have put myself in some dangerous situations, and have worn a lot of hats in my life,but I`m just not that lucky to still be here when over 150 or so of my former friends are pushing up fucking daisies.

On the other hand,I`m a bad motherfacker so maybe I`m God!!   :D


You guys will have to ponder on this and most will inevetibly come to the conclusion that they should worship me and send money so I can start my temple of enlightenment.

Seriously.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 17, 2012, 06:01:19 AM
LOL

What a load of bollocks.

Religion a crutch for the weak? I suppose people like Tony Blair, Ronald Reagan, George Bush were pitiable, powerless weaklings, eh?

Politicains will say what voters want to hear.  Think if anyone said they are atheist they would have a snowballls chance in hell?  C'mon use your brain!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 06:05:30 AM
Politicains will say what voters want to hear.  Think if anyone said they are atheist they would have a snowballls chance in hell?  C'mon use your brain!

Use my brain? You don't know what the fuck you're on about. Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in the middle of his tenure as prime minister and that was seen as a massive political liability by his spin doctors. In fact, questions of religion were forbidden in interviews with the PM, for example when his chief spin-doctor Alastair Campbell interrupted an interview with his famous interjection: "We don't do God".


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 17, 2012, 06:16:15 AM
Use my brain? You don't know what the fuck you're on about. Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in the middle of his tenure as prime minister and that was seen as a massive political liability by his spin doctors. In fact, questions of religion were forbidden in interviews with the PM, for example when his chief spin-doctor Alastair Campbell interrupted an interview with his famous interjection: "We don't do God".

Blair converted from Protestant to Catholic.  He was still a Christain. What does protocol have anything to do with anything?  Britain has 2000 years of history steeped in religion, think that will be wiped away by some lacky's statement.  The beliefs of politicains are pretty much taken as a given even if it is not a matter of public record.  How many times has a Prime Minister or President been photo opped entering a church?  Name me one elected politican who is an atheist.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 06:16:32 AM
Use my brain? You don't know what the fuck you're on about. Tony Blair converted to Catholicism in the middle of his tenure as prime minister and that was seen as a massive political liability by his spin doctors. In fact, questions of religion were forbidden in interviews with the PM, for example when his chief spin-doctor Alastair Campbell interrupted an interview with his famous interjection: "We don't do God".
The quote  "We don't do God"  was in relation to his Christian faith - as he was raised a Christian - Blair didn't convert to Catholicism until after he left office.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 17, 2012, 06:26:30 AM
Here is an idea to consider, what if the big bang theory is wrong? It's just a theory, think about it, man in his current form has only been around for about 250000 years, has wriiten language for maybe 7000.  That is just a blink of the eye in geological terms.  What make you think we could possibly have the answer to the origins of the universe when we can't even figure out what to do with all the nuclear waste we produce every day?  Do you honestly think this theory will stand up say fifty thousand years from now?  Will we even be around fifty thousand years from now?  I doubt it.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 06:28:15 AM
The quote  "We don't do God"  was in relation to his Christian faith - as he was raised a Christian - Blair didn't convert to Catholicism until after he left office.

Blair converted openly to Catholicism after leaving but rumours up and down Fleet Street were that he actually did it while in office- that's what the quote was trying to deflect attention from. Blair came under terrible pressure after the Iraq invasion and his daughter attempted suicide in 2004 after being bullied by fellow students at the Roman Catholic state school she was attending, something that was not reported by the press at the time.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 17, 2012, 06:29:18 AM
I`m a living walking talking fucking miracle bro.

All bullshit aside,I have a hell of a time believing in the concept of God, but after living my former lifestyle,I have to think that somebody was looking out for me............all I`ll say is even with drinking and drugs aside,I have put myself in some dangerous situations, and have worn a lot of hats in my life,but I`m just not that lucky to still be here when over 150 or so of my former friends are pushing up fucking daisies.

On the other hand,I`m a bad motherfacker so maybe I`m God!!   :D


You guys will have to ponder on this and most will inevetibly come to the conclusion that they should worship me and send money so I can start my temple of enlightenment.

Seriously.
Wes you are a good Guy.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: PJim on June 17, 2012, 06:33:43 AM
Here is an idea to consider, what if the big bang theory is wrong? It's just a theory, think about it, man in his current form has only been around for about 250000 years, has wriiten language for maybe 7000.  That is just a blink of the eye in geological terms.  What make you think we could possibly have the answer to the origins of the universe when we can't even figure out what to do with all the nuclear waste we produce every day?  Do you honestly think this theory will stand up say fifty thousand years from now?  Will we even be around fifty thousand years from now?  I doubt it.

It's a not a problem if it is wrong, you just go back to the drawing board.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 17, 2012, 06:45:01 AM
Here is an idea to consider, what if the big bang theory is wrong? It's just a theory, think about it, man in his current form has only been around for about 250000 years, has wriiten language for maybe 7000.  That is just a blink of the eye in geological terms.  What make you think we could possibly have the answer to the origins of the universe when we can't even figure out what to do with all the nuclear waste we produce every day?  Do you honestly think this theory will stand up say fifty thousand years from now?  Will we even be around fifty thousand years from now?  I doubt it.
This is a valid point, there are theories that suggest the big bang is wrong - the basis of the big bang theory is the discovery that the universe is expanding and if you followed the logic of an expanding universe backward, then you arrived at the Big Bang—an infinitely dense point that explodes to form the universe as we know it. The Big Bang theory depends on two major assumptions: the universality of physical laws, and the cosmological principle. both of these assumptions are not fact and may yet be disproved with further understanding.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 17, 2012, 07:07:16 AM
Blair converted openly to Catholicism after leaving but rumours up and down Fleet Street were that he actually did it while in office- that's what the quote was trying to deflect attention from. Blair came under terrible pressure after the Iraq invasion and his daughter attempted suicide in 2004 after being bullied by fellow students at the Roman Catholic state school she was attending, something that was not reported by the press at the time.
I could believe this. Did not know about his Daughter.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 17, 2012, 07:13:06 AM
I believe in God.....but not religion.

Religions are created and written by man and their whole concept of a supreme being is shaped by primitive human reasoning.

I don't believe in Hell or any 'Devil'......but perhaps there is some continuation of our spirits and memories? No-one knows.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: PJim on June 17, 2012, 07:57:40 AM
I believe in God.....but not religion.

Religions are created and written by man and their whole concept of a supreme being is shaped by primitive human reasoning.

I don't believe in Hell or any 'Devil'......but perhaps there is some continuation of our spirits and memories? No-one knows.

What about the spirit and memories of a fruit fly, would they be part of this "continuation" you propose?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: NordicNerd on June 17, 2012, 08:13:29 AM
...
So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!
...

We don't know these things. We are limited creatures on one out of billions of planets in cosmos. That we don't know these things doesn't mean that there is a "god" that created man in his image, nor any other form of personal god that in any form resembles humans or anything humans could understand.

Religious people are unimaginative, foolish and unable to tolerate uncertainty.

I don't know what is out there or if there is any form of "higher" intelligence, but I'm damn sure a bunch of goat or camel herders in the middle east 2000 years ago did not know either. Yet we worship fantasy creatures created by them. Ridiculous!

NN


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Ursus on June 17, 2012, 09:49:22 AM
I do.

It is a personal choice and I have no problem with anyone who does not.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 17, 2012, 09:51:45 AM
people cant think of miracles happening without there being a creator


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 10:00:49 AM
I do.

It is a personal choice and I have no problem with anyone who does not.

Yeah, but you're the guy who once thought Alfonso Del Rio got his size "without a ton of gear".

No offense bro, it's not a surprise to me you believe in God as well ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr Dutch on June 17, 2012, 10:04:05 AM
The question is: does God believe in Getbig.......?   :-\


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Ursus on June 17, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
Yeah, but you're the guy who once thought Alfonso Del Rio got his size "without a ton of gear".

No offense bro, it's not a surprise to me you believe in God as well ;)

Incorrect I was the guy who thought it was "huge without being stupidly huge and lean without being stupidly lean"

If you are going to be a twerp at least be accurate.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 17, 2012, 10:09:51 AM
I remember sqauting on a street corner in Londenderry N Ireland in 1987 and thinking, "do they hate me"?.. an old Guy came over to me and touched my shoulder and he said, " ok sohn".


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Raymondo on June 17, 2012, 10:12:00 AM
ill get pretty dam close naturally




Are you any closer to it ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Ursus on June 17, 2012, 10:16:28 AM
265lbs with almost 20" arms.

Nowhere near as lean or thick though.

Nearer than I was anyway but as I admitted before I was mistaken thinking I could achieve it.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 17, 2012, 10:28:38 AM
close to death


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 17, 2012, 12:14:06 PM
We don't know these things. We are limited creatures on one out of billions of planets in cosmos. That we don't know these things doesn't mean that there is a "god" that created man in his image, nor any other form of personal god that in any form resembles humans or anything humans could understand.

Religious people are unimaginative, foolish and unable to tolerate uncertainty.

I don't know what is out there or if there is any form of "higher" intelligence, but I'm damn sure a bunch of goat or camel herders in the middle east 2000 years ago did not know either. Yet we worship fantasy creatures created by them. Ridiculous!

NN


At the risk of incurring AGR ire, spot on.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 17, 2012, 12:21:25 PM
We don't know these things. We are limited creatures on one out of billions of planets in cosmos. That we don't know these things doesn't mean that there is a "god" that created man in his image, nor any other form of personal god that in any form resembles humans or anything humans could understand.

Religious people are unimaginative, foolish and unable to tolerate uncertainty.

I don't know what is out there or if there is any form of "higher" intelligence, but I'm damn sure a bunch of goat or camel herders in the middle east 2000 years ago did not know either. Yet we worship fantasy creatures created by them. Ridiculous!

NN
Very good point.  I will go farther by saying that it is far more probable that there is intelligent life on one of the many millions of planets in space.  If a higher power does exist, It is alien. Not Divine.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: godeep on June 17, 2012, 03:47:10 PM
have considered myself to be a gnostic atheist for a very long time

the more time I have to think about it, the more convinced of I am of my belief

if a supreme being were to exist, the common (judeo-christian, muslim, etc) religions could not be further away from this being's true nature


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 18, 2012, 12:04:34 AM
I think Wes is the Divine one...of Getbig  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 18, 2012, 03:26:04 AM
What about the spirit and memories of a fruit fly, would they be part of this "continuation" you propose?
I don't know.
Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe we're all reincarnated into some form of other life?
Or maybe there's absolute nothingness?

No-one can say for certain.
All I know is that religions don't have answers, because the people who wrote those books are like you and me.
They have no idea, they can only guess.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: loco on June 18, 2012, 05:06:23 AM
Nietzche is dead.
 ~God

 :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 18, 2012, 05:10:49 AM
The more I read into quantum physics and the zero point field, the more I believe. And before you rattle off your typical "GetBigger" stance on the topic replete with your barbs of "fairy tale" and other nonsense...I heartily recommend you become familiar with layman quantum mechanics.

It's actually mind blowing. So? There was a big bang? What was going on before that? (Science has *crickets*) There was nothing? And then..all the sudden...there was something? The Universe? How does that logically differ from.."HEY THERE WAS A FAIRY TALE MAN AND HE MADE THE UNIVERSE"?

So, you non God fearing heathens..you're telling me..that (best science you got, btw) there was nothing and BANG!!! THERE WAS SOMETHING!!

And you laugh at religious people?

Disclaimer: I subscribe to Steve Jobs's view that "all religions are windows to the same house".

Discuss.

I'm not sure I would have stepped in here and slapped you around for your lack of knowledge because I'm not intimately familiar with quantum mechanics; luckily, my main man axvo has owned you sufficiently (and dispelled other stupidity that cropped up in this thread) such that it will be unnecessary.

I do know that some work from the more speculative wing of physics proffers provisional answers to the question of what shape existence took before our universe existed; you can read an accessible article titled "Parallel Universes" by Max Tegmark for such a view. Your characterization of scientists as arguing for a magical "nothing; bang; then something!" model is thus demonstrably false. Certainly, such provisional answers are more plausible than the "conclusion" you have reached (which explains precisely nothing).

Finally, it is interesting that you (eminent scientist that you are) come away from quantum mechanics with a religious (supernatural) view. This result is in fact very unusual: physicists -- people who make their living studying this stuff --  are the least religious (defined broadly as a belief in God) people in all of academia, which is already a rather irreligious place. Why do the people who understand the mechanisms of the universe most evince religiosity least? I think I know the best explanation.

P.S. This is almost certainly a troll thread because the topic is guaranteed to attract many and because you've done nothing but violently attack those who disagree, but in any case it's an interesting subject and maybe a good discussion can be had, independent of you.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Fortress on June 18, 2012, 09:39:41 AM
Very good point.  I will go farther by saying that it is far more probable that there is intelligent life on one of the many millions of planets in space.  If a higher power does exist, It is alien. Not Divine.

This


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Parker on June 18, 2012, 10:16:25 AM
Very good point.  I will go farther by saying that it is far more probable that there is intelligent life on one of the many millions of planets in space.  If a higher power does exist, It is alien. Not Divine.
Apparently many "alien abductees" have asked the "god" question to their "captors", and they say that they believe in a Devine God...



Now, whether this is before or after they stick the anal probe in their ass, is not known.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr Dutch on June 18, 2012, 10:18:51 AM
The Old Testament shows us that God is a sadistic SOB.....


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 18, 2012, 10:19:09 AM
flying spaghetti monster


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 18, 2012, 10:24:05 AM
almighty gnome


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: godeep on June 18, 2012, 10:26:15 AM
flying spaghetti monster

^^THIS



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: loco on June 18, 2012, 10:26:23 AM
flying spaghetti monster

almighty gnome

LOL    ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 18, 2012, 10:27:09 AM
If there is a God, where did he/she come from? Is god some landlord that owns this ant farm we call earth?  Does God have a family? Does God have a dad?  A great grand dad?  Uncles and Cousins?  Is God sitting in the clouds, lol.  Where does God live?  What is there to believe in?  Some man wearing all white with a long white beard?  Some midget?  Maybe some chick?  With magical powers?  Really?  Created earth?  with what?  Where did the materials come from.  Did God magically make earth out of nothing?  In the end what is this world?  What is the purpose?  People are born and die everyday, what's the point of that?  Are we just a science experiment that God created for class?
The way human evolution is heading we are going to be wiped out and dead in the next couple hundred years.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 18, 2012, 10:28:04 AM
my main man axvo

outed   :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 18, 2012, 10:32:23 AM
If there is a God, where did he/she come from? Is god some landlord that owns this ant farm we call earth?  Does God have a family? Does God have a dad?  A great grand dad?  Uncles and Cousins?  Is God sitting in the clouds, lol.  Where does God live?  What is there to believe in?  Some man wearing all white with a long white beard?  Some midget?  Maybe some chick?  With magical powers?  Really?  Created earth?  with what?  Where did the materials come from.  Did God magically make earth out of nothing?  In the end what is this world?  What is the purpose?  People are born and die everyday, what's the point of that?  Are we just a science experiment that God created for class?
The way human evolution is heading we are going to be wiped out and dead in the next couple hundred years.

We are stardust. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 18, 2012, 10:36:13 AM
If there is a God, where did he/she come from? Is god some landlord that owns this ant farm we call earth?  Does God have a family? Does God have a dad?  A great grand dad?  Uncles and Cousins?  Is God sitting in the clouds, lol.  Where does God live?  What is there to believe in?  Some man wearing all white with a long white beard?  Some midget?  Maybe some chick?  With magical powers?  Really?  Created earth?  with what?  Where did the materials come from.  Did God magically make earth out of nothing?  In the end what is this world?  What is the purpose?  People are born and die everyday, what's the point of that?  Are we just a science experiment that God created for class?
The way human evolution is heading we are going to be wiped out and dead in the next couple hundred years.
Lol, well if the story is to be believed, Jesus was far from white.  He would probably look more like Bin Laden actually. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 18, 2012, 10:54:59 AM
Lol, well if the story is to be believed, Jesus was far from white.  He would probably look more like Bin Laden actually.  

Religious people talk about God with such certainty that it is absurd.  You ask them any of the questions I mentioned and they scoff at you and then start calling you names to deflect the question.
A lot of these Americans who are such good christians turn to ugly assholes very quickly and are very open to killing.  Funny how in American guns and christianity go hand in hand.

What is there to believe in?  When I hear stories about a girl getting raped by 12 black guys, or I see a 5 year old in a wheel chair with a sever disability it makes my blood boil.  Why would a God allow this to happen? When christians say this is part of a bigger plan.  Bullshit. Let's see how they love this plan when their kid gets gang raped.  I'm pretty sure they'd change their tune.  Then those others say, God gave us free will so it's up to humans to fend for themselves.  If that was so then what is the point of God?  What is the point of worshipping someone who doesn't give a fuck about you?

Why is it that the most religious people are the richest and poorest and the ones in the middle beleive in God the least.  Rich people beleive in God for their riches and the poor believe hoping to be rich.

If there is a god, who's God is it?  Is it the white God?  Jesus?  Really?  What about the Hindus who are before the time of Jesus and their God?  Or the Jews and their God ? So people believe God created earth, created humans and then stood by the side for a few thousand years, then decided to send someone named jesus who was to spread a story that he existed.  Would God really need to send Jesus?  Couldn't he just prove he existed by making it rain glittery thongs?

To the OP.  At least science is open to ideas and discussion and are progressing with thoughts about the earth and existence where religions people are stuck on a book and are not open to any ideas that oppose theirs.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr Dutch on June 18, 2012, 11:20:15 AM
We are stardust. 
We are golden.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 18, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
Religious people talk about God with such certainty that it is absurd.  You ask them any of the questions I mentioned and they scoff at you and then start calling you names to deflect the question.
A lot of these Americans who are such good christians turn to ugly assholes very quickly and are very open to killing.  Funny how in American guns and christianity go hand in hand.

What is there to believe in?  When I hear stories about a girl getting raped by 12 black guys, or I see a 5 year old in a wheel chair with a sever disability it makes my blood boil.  Why would a God allow this to happen? When christians say this is part of a bigger plan.  Bullshit. Let's see how they love this plan when their kid gets gang raped.  I'm pretty sure they'd change their tune.  Then those others say, God gave us free will so it's up to humans to fend for themselves.  If that was so then what is the point of God?  What is the point of worshipping someone who doesn't give a fuck about you?

Why is it that the most religious people are the richest and poorest and the ones in the middle beleive in God the least.  Rich people beleive in God for their riches and the poor believe hoping to be rich.

If there is a god, who's God is it?  Is it the white God?  Jesus?  Really?  What about the Hindus who are before the time of Jesus and their God?  Or the Jews and their God ? So people believe God created earth, created humans and then stood by the side for a few thousand years, then decided to send someone named jesus who was to spread a story that he existed.  Would God really need to send Jesus?  Couldn't he just prove he existed by making it rain glittery thongs?

To the OP.  At least science is open to ideas and discussion and are progressing with thoughts about the earth and existence where religions people are stuck on a book and are not open to any ideas that oppose theirs.

Thread now BB relevant.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 18, 2012, 12:32:48 PM
Religious people talk about God with such certainty that it is absurd.  You ask them any of the questions I mentioned and they scoff at you and then start calling you names to deflect the question.
A lot of these Americans who are such good christians turn to ugly assholes very quickly and are very open to killing.  Funny how in American guns and christianity go hand in hand.

What is there to believe in?  When I hear stories about a girl getting raped by 12 black guys, or I see a 5 year old in a wheel chair with a sever disability it makes my blood boil.  Why would a God allow this to happen? When christians say this is part of a bigger plan.  Bullshit. Let's see how they love this plan when their kid gets gang raped.  I'm pretty sure they'd change their tune.  Then those others say, God gave us free will so it's up to humans to fend for themselves.  If that was so then what is the point of God?  What is the point of worshipping someone who doesn't give a fuck about you?

Why is it that the most religious people are the richest and poorest and the ones in the middle beleive in God the least.  Rich people beleive in God for their riches and the poor believe hoping to be rich.

If there is a god, who's God is it?  Is it the white God?  Jesus?  Really?  What about the Hindus who are before the time of Jesus and their God?  Or the Jews and their God ? So people believe God created earth, created humans and then stood by the side for a few thousand years, then decided to send someone named jesus who was to spread a story that he existed.  Would God really need to send Jesus?  Couldn't he just prove he existed by making it rain glittery thongs?

To the OP.  At least science is open to ideas and discussion and are progressing with thoughts about the earth and existence where religions people are stuck on a book and are not open to any ideas that oppose theirs.
Raining glittery thongs? That would be all the proof I needed!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 18, 2012, 05:41:54 PM

Finally, it is interesting that you (eminent scientist that you are) come away from quantum mechanics with a religious (supernatural) view. This result is in fact very unusual: physicists -- people who make their living studying this stuff --  are the least religious (defined broadly as a belief in God) people in all of academia, which is already a rather irreligious place. Why do the people who understand the mechanisms of the universe most evince religiosity least? I think I know the best explanation.


Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

Belief in God
Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature. This is a small sampling of scientists who contributed to the development of modern science while believing in God. Although many people believe in a "God of the gaps", these scientists, and still others alive today, believe because of the evidence.

Rich Deem
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Pascal was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and theologian. In mathematics, he published a treatise on the subject of projective geometry and established the foundation for probability theory. Pascal invented a mechanical calculator, and established the principles of vacuums and the pressure of air. He was raised a Roman Catholic, but in 1654 had a religious vision of God, which turned the direction of his study from science to theology. Pascal began publishing a theological work, Lettres provinciales, in 1656. His most influential theological work, the Pensées ("Thoughts"), was a defense of Christianity, which was published after his death. The most famous concept from Pensées was Pascal's Wager. Pascal's last words were, "May God never abandon me."
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God was essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncerta


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 18, 2012, 05:44:33 PM
And Syntax..I know your next move..

You're gonna say that the people listed were "old school" not versed in modern quantum physics.

Fair point, to be sure.

But also a fair point is that the men listed in my previous post are HEAVYWEIGHTS, and not to be dismissed lightly.

Shit on them as you will. (And I know you will..)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: evser on June 18, 2012, 06:14:08 PM
a lot of them were forced to believe due to the time period/setting they were in. they would have faced hostility had they said they were atheists


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 18, 2012, 06:16:49 PM
a lot of them were forced to believe due to the time period/setting they were in. they would have faced hostility had they said they were atheists

Yeah.. Einstein was just freaking out about the American views on atheism.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 18, 2012, 06:22:49 PM
If you don't stop this silliness straight away there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in your future!!!!

You got better than that Syntax...

That's Yahoo comment fodder you're dishing out....

C'mon man!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 18, 2012, 07:11:58 PM
Zip it you godless liberal hippy cock monger. While you're asking all these questions on your deathbed I'll be readying myself for my 72 virgins in heaven, lol. If you don't repent before the train reaches the next station god will have it in his plan that you get gang raped by 12 black men...in hell, forever. I don't even think there's lube in hell, so get yer bum ready.

oh shit..syntax is drunk...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 18, 2012, 07:59:42 PM
Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

First question: And this matters why? Second question: What exactly is it that these famous scientists are purported to believe in?


Belief in God
Is belief in the existence of God irrational?

See above please. Define "God" first, and then we can examine the question of whether believe in it is rational or not.


These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism.

OK, and? How is that anymore relevant than the scientists who are strong proponents of theism?


However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature.

In the past many scientists also believed that we had four humors (blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm) and that their correct balancing was essential to health...


This is a small sampling of scientists who contributed to the development of modern science while believing in God. Although many people believe in a "God of the gaps", these scientists, and still others alive today, believe because of the evidence.

Evidence of WHAT? I've yet to see a cogent definition God for you or anyone else for that matter.


(... snipped the list ...)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: daddy8ball on June 19, 2012, 01:40:52 AM
First question: And this matters why? Second question: What exactly is it that these famous scientists are purported to believe in?


See above please. Define "God" first, and then we can examine the question of whether believe in it is rational or not.


OK, and? How is that anymore relevant than the scientists who are strong proponents of theism?


In the past many scientists also believed that we had four humors (blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm) and that their correct balancing was essential to health...


Evidence of WHAT? I've yet to see a cogent definition God for you or anyone else for that matter.


(... snipped the list ...)

Guess you're smarter than everybody. You win.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 19, 2012, 01:45:25 AM
.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: dr.chimps on June 19, 2012, 03:12:43 AM
Just seems sad to me that in this day and age superstitions like religion are even being debated.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: wes on June 19, 2012, 03:15:29 AM
when i tripped on lsd, i seen god and had a little chat with him.

he was very easygoing guy, like a stoner.

we got along nicely.
(http://www.realdetroitweekly.com/binary/31df/Jay-and-silent-bob.jpg)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: wes on June 19, 2012, 03:18:11 AM
We are golden.
......and we`ve got to get ourselves back to the garden.  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Parker on June 19, 2012, 03:22:36 AM
Religious people talk about God with such certainty that it is absurd.  You ask them any of the questions I mentioned and they scoff at you and then start calling you names to deflect the question.A lot of these Americans who are such good christians turn to ugly assholes very quickly and are very open to killing.  Funny how in American guns and christianity go hand in hand.


Religious people who don't know what they are talking about or don't give serious thought to what a person is asking, act this way....


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 19, 2012, 04:09:03 AM
Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

Belief in God
Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature. This is a small sampling of scientists who contributed to the development of modern science while believing in God. Although many people believe in a "God of the gaps", these scientists, and still others alive today, believe because of the evidence.

Rich Deem
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Pascal was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and theologian. In mathematics, he published a treatise on the subject of projective geometry and established the foundation for probability theory. Pascal invented a mechanical calculator, and established the principles of vacuums and the pressure of air. He was raised a Roman Catholic, but in 1654 had a religious vision of God, which turned the direction of his study from science to theology. Pascal began publishing a theological work, Lettres provinciales, in 1656. His most influential theological work, the Pensées ("Thoughts"), was a defense of Christianity, which was published after his death. The most famous concept from Pensées was Pascal's Wager. Pascal's last words were, "May God never abandon me."
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God was essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncerta

Where is this pasted from? At least paste the entire work next time so that we can evaluate it in full.

In any case, my comments referred only to contemporary physicists, and I think that this is rather clear from the words I chose to use. So, historical figures, however important, have nothing to do with what I've said. They don't at all change the statistical fact I indicated (which is, to be precise, that a little over 1 in 5 physicists accept any notion of God. I for one think this is extremely high, but that is another issue altogether).

Further, this isn't a mere "appeal to popularity," because I am asking us to make an inference to the best explanation: what is the best explanation for why so few physicists -- people who presumably understand universe-wide mechanisms best -- find any notion of God at all convincing?

There are a variety of explanations we can come up with, including some sort of conspiracy involving indoctrination, or, less maliciously, that the emphasis on proffering natural, God-free explanations that is a part of any science helps preclude a belief in God among physicists. But far and above the best explanation, and one I think is pretty easy to glean even from the versions of physics that are popularized for mass consumption, is that the particular way universe-wide mechanisms function provide no reasons whatever for believing in any sort of God.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr Dutch on June 19, 2012, 04:37:34 AM
Famous Scientists Who Believed in God

Belief in God
Is belief in the existence of God irrational? These days, many famous scientists are also strong proponents of atheism. However, in the past, and even today, many scientists believe that God exists and is responsible for what we see in nature. This is a small sampling of scientists who contributed to the development of modern science while believing in God. Although many people believe in a "God of the gaps", these scientists, and still others alive today, believe because of the evidence.

Rich Deem
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Pascal was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and theologian. In mathematics, he published a treatise on the subject of projective geometry and established the foundation for probability theory. Pascal invented a mechanical calculator, and established the principles of vacuums and the pressure of air. He was raised a Roman Catholic, but in 1654 had a religious vision of God, which turned the direction of his study from science to theology. Pascal began publishing a theological work, Lettres provinciales, in 1656. His most influential theological work, the Pensées ("Thoughts"), was a defense of Christianity, which was published after his death. The most famous concept from Pensées was Pascal's Wager. Pascal's last words were, "May God never abandon me."
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God was essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncerta
Oh yeah, and what happened to all of them ?   ...they are dead!!   hah !


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 19, 2012, 05:46:04 AM
......and we`ve got to get ourselves back to the garden.  ;)

A wayback playback...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 09:05:33 AM
I believe in God.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 10:54:59 AM
I believe in God.

I just checked and I still believe in God.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 11:30:15 AM
I believe in God.

What is it, exactly, that you believe in? In other words, can you provide a rational, consistent definition of God for us?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 11:35:24 AM
I just checked and I still believe in God.
Somewhere in the back of your mind, you have doubts.  Everyone does.  Even the most devout.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr Dutch on June 19, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Somewhere in the back of your mind, you have doubts.  Everyone does.  Even the most devout.
THIS I always found a very true statement...deep down they all know it's bull.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on June 19, 2012, 11:59:48 AM
Years ago I read a paper written by a former priest who left the Catholic church because he was dissolutioned.  He was able to rise quite high up in the organization and even had a minor posting in the Vatican.  I can't remember all the details, but one thing I will never forget, he got to know a lot of the upper echelon in the Vatican and he said most of them admitted that there is probably no God, or devil or heaven or hell. When he asked them why they stay on it all came down to economics, they had pretty comfortable lives, everything was taken care of for them, and they got a lot of respect from the public.  Most of them had invested a lot of years in the church and walking away was unrealistc.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 12:06:52 PM
What is it, exactly, that you believe in? In other words, can you provide a rational, consistent definition of God for us?
Can you explain a rational alternative, I don't think so, no matter what direction you go, you will hit a brick wall, no explanation makes sense.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 12:24:40 PM
Can you explain a rational alternative, I don't think so, no matter what direction you go, you will hit a brick wall, no explanation makes sense.

A rational alternative to what?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Dr.J on June 19, 2012, 12:36:02 PM
Not me I don't believe in good one bit!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 12:37:15 PM
A rational alternative to what?
You asked for the definition of God in a rational way. Of course this can't be done, Anyone that believes in God should concur that a rational explanation for his existence can not be explained. Any alternative can not be explained rationally either, what you believe in, whatever that may be has no rational explanation if you go deep enough..


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
Live your life as if someone is always watching. It doesn't take religion or a god to achieve this.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 12:55:04 PM
You asked for the definition of God in a rational way.

I did.


Of course this can't be done, Anyone that believes in God should concur that a rational explanation for his existence can not be explained.

So anyone that believes in God concedes that they believe in something they cannot define.


Any alternative can not be explained rationally either

Really?


what you believe in, whatever that may be has no rational explanation if you go deep enough..

Let's agree to disagree.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 01:15:48 PM
I did.


So anyone that believes in God concedes that they believe in something they cannot define.


Really?


Let's agree to disagree.

1.   Bro, you are losing it...... yes you did (ask).. Check^^^^^^

2.   They should, cause it's faith that brings them to God


3.   Can you explain "what's before time",   "where did matter come from",...'If the universe is expanding (time, space and matter) what is it expanding into?,... There is nothing rational about any of this, hence can't be explained in a manner that makes sense.  The definition of infinite is not rational, neither is the term  " an infinite regression" you know the one you like to throw around a lot.


4. unless you have the answere's you have no choice but to a agree with me that no explanation for the existense of the universe can be explained in a manner the human brain can grasp, so let's agree to disagree,... I don't think so.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 01:40:53 PM
1.   Bro, you are losing it...... yes you did (ask).. Check^^^^^^

Huh? Are you high? I agreed with you that I asked.


2.   They should, cause it's faith that brings them to God

Their faith brings them to believe in something that they cannot explain? Then what good is their belief?


3.   Can you explain "what's before time"

The question "what's before time" is meaningless - the very words you use imply a causal relationship that only exists when there is a temporal progression.


"where did matter come from"

There are theories, but to answer your question, no I cannot explain it. But so what? I don't have to believe in matter - I can see it all around me; I can touch it; I can even smell it. Are you seriously suggesting that the answer "I cannot answer the question X" is irrational?


'If the universe is expanding (time, space and matter) what is it expanding into?

You misunderstand what the term 'expanding' refers to in this context. I don't blame you - it is a difficult concept to understand. We can discuss this topic, but I need to know what level physics have you taken and what are you comfortable with, so I can explain things appropriately.


There is nothing rational about any of this, hence can't be explained in a manner that makes sense.

That's simply not true. You may believe there's nothing rational in any of this. But, as we've established, beliefs don't carry a whole lot of weight.


The definition of infinite is not rational, neither is the term  " an infinite regression" you know the one you like to throw around a lot.

Actually, depending on the context of the use, the definition of infinite can be perfectly rational. For example, there are infinitely many natural numbers. There are also infinitely many real numbers. And, get this, there are more real numbers than there are natural numbers! In mathematical jargon, the natural numbers are countably infinite while the real numbers are uncountably infinite. While concepts such as these can be confusing, they are, I assure you, perfectly rational.

Now, I agree that an infinite regress (please note, it's regress, not regression - there is a difference) is irrational and I've never once proposed that (or supported a solution that advocates) an infinite regress as a solution to anything. So I'm a little confused as to why you would bring this up as an argument against my position?


4. unless you have the answere's you have no choice but to a agree with me that no explanation for the existense of the universe can be explained in a manner the human brain can grasp, so let's agree to disagree,... I don't think so.

That's a ridiculous assertion. So if we can't explain something right now it means that it cannot be explained in a manner than the human brain can grasp? There was a time when lightning couldn't be explained. There was a time when rain couldn't be explained. There was a time when eclipses couldn't be explained. Yet, all those things are now well understood.

You seem to operate under the misconception that it is the job of science to answer every question. That is wrong. It doesn't have to, and it doesn't need to.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 01:54:16 PM
Surely you can understand that when you said "I did" i took it in a sarcastic manner, anyway you clarified it, so no biggy, what level physic do I have?, that shit is mumbo jumbo to me, I know shit and will be happy to admit it ;),... my field is history.

Now if you keep thinking that an explanation is yet to be determined but you feel it will be a rational one in regards to the origins of space, time, and matter, then feel free to do so, but that shit is weird as fuck and hurts to even think about it, our brains are not capable of reaching this far. You really think there is a rational explanation of what brought matter into existence, or time, space,.... maybe, just maybe there is more to it then your limited rational mind can grasp


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 02:06:36 PM
What is it, exactly, that you believe in? In other words, can you provide a rational, consistent definition of God for us?
I believe that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord and Savior and I believe in my heart that he is the son of God and that he has died for my sins, forgiven me and that I am saved.  I believe that Jesus Christ is a third of the eternal trinity that is the Christian God.  Christ is Son, God in Heaven is Father and that which I am indwelt with is the remaining third in the Holy Spirit.  God is the creator and existed before time and is the same God of the OT and NT and will exist as such today, tomorrow and forever.

Certainly I know this won't suffice for your purposes of definition and consistency, but I'll provide it regardless. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 02:08:10 PM
Somewhere in the back of your mind, you have doubts.  Everyone does.  Even the most devout.

I used to, but no longer.  My doubts have been washed away.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:10:56 PM
I believe that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord and Savior and I believe in my heart that he is the son of God and that he has died for my sins, forgiven me and that I am saved.  I believe that Jesus Christ is a third of the eternal trinity that is the Christian God.  Christ is Son, God in Heaven is Father and that which I am indwelt with is the remaining third in the Holy Spirit.  God is the creator and existed before time and is the same God of the OT and NT and will exist as such today, tomorrow and forever.

Certainly I know this won't suffice for your purposes of definition and consistency, but I'll provide it regardless. 
This is exactly what I believe aswell, and a billion people do too, some doctor, some professors, some scientist but of course clearly no one smarter then the getbig crowd  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 02:11:32 PM
I believe that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord and Savior and I believe in my heart that he is the son of God and that he has died for my sins, forgiven me and that I am saved.  I believe that Jesus Christ is a third of the eternal trinity that is the Christian God.  Christ is Son, God in Heaven is Father and that which I am indwelt with is the remaining third in the Holy Spirit.  God is the creator and existed before time and is the same God of the OT and NT and will exist as such today, tomorrow and forever.

Certainly I know this won't suffice for your purposes of definition and consistency, but I'll provide it regardless. 
Do not move to Waco Texas.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 02:13:18 PM
Do not move to Waco Texas.

David Koresh is long gone.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
life would really seem pointless if you had strong disbeliefs in god

how can you be happy if you feel life is pointless

worship a god , any god, theorize on his capabilities, he doesnt have to be omnipotent, just beleive in something more intelligent than yourself...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
I used to, but no longer.  My doubts have been washed away.
Or maybe it's the opposite, maybe shizzo has some daubts of his view in the back of his head,... Hey shizzo maybe somewhere in there you believe in God, no? :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 02:18:06 PM
Or maybe it's the opposite, maybe shizzo has some daubts of his view in the back of his head,... Hey shizzo maybe somewhere in there you believe in God, no? :D

Well honestly this is exactly what I believe to be true (forgive me if that offends others), but I try and speak to others reserving judgement (as best I'm able LOL) and use myself and my testimony to share with others. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 02:20:48 PM
God is real only f/\gs and steroid users dont beleive in god


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: The Ugly on June 19, 2012, 02:21:44 PM
I really wanted to believe in God over the years, but I finally realized it was bullshit.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:24:44 PM
God is real only f/\gs and steroid users dont beleive in god
Cmon Falcon don't be so cold. I believe in God and yes I juice, in fact 1.5 cc of Test E in my left shoulder, 1.5cc of eq in my right,....like 25 minutes ago, lol ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 02:25:50 PM
Or maybe it's the opposite, maybe shizzo has some daubts of his view in the back of his head,... Hey shizzo maybe somewhere in there you believe in God, no? :D
I am not afraid to admit that I have no earthly (keyword) idea what the "truth" is.  All I know is I will live a good life, and if a righteous god does exist he will forgive me at the pearly gates.  


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:30:06 PM
I am not afraid to admit that I have no earthly (keyword) idea what the "truth" is.  All I know is I will live a good life, and if a righteous god does exist he will forgive me at the pearly gates.  
Now that is great thinking shizzo, had I judged you based on your other posts I woud've thought you where close minded or had ill-will towards people who believe.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
Cmon Falcon don't be so cold. I believe in God and yes I juice, in fact 1.5 cc of Test E in my left shoulder, 1.5cc of eq in my right,....like 25 minutes ago, lol ;D
god wouldnt want you to destroy the temple bro.

that juice is only serving your vanity. another bad idea

im sure you discuss this in your head sometimes the validity of your decision


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 02:30:32 PM
I used to, but no longer.  My doubts have been washed away.

Not trying to argue, just want an opinion from a devout person as yourself.

Why do religions pick and choose what is to be followed or endorsed today?

Example.

Is slavery frowned upon in the church? The bible says it's ok? Why is it not endorsed by the church?

Homosexuality is wrong by the church, but allowed by state and churches are very vocal about it being as sin.

This has always confused me.

If the bible is the book of god, why is it not followed exactly as written?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 02:40:29 PM
Not trying to argue, just want an opinion from a devout person as yourself.

Why do religions pick and choose what is to be followed or endorsed today?

Example.

Is slavery frowned upon in the church? The bible says it's ok? Why is it not endorsed by the church?

Homosexuality is wrong by the church, but allowed by state and churches are very vocal about it being as sin.

This has always confused me.

If the bible is the book of god, why is it not followed exactly as written?



Many churches and religions remove God from the equation and assemble a belief system that caters to will of people and not the will of God.  This provided we are speaking of the Christian God.

I guess it best to first define the type of slavery you think was permitted in the bible. 

Technically homosexuality is deemed a sin by God.  As a body of believers we should not exclude the homosexual community from our churches.  We shouldn't label them as sinners and brand them with a scarlet "H".  If that's the case brand me with an "L" for liar, a "T" for thief and an "A" for adulterer.   We are all sinners and should encourage one another to turn from that sin.  My position in no way upholds a homosexual lifestyle, but I won't not fellowship with a homosexual. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:42:27 PM
god wouldnt want you to destroy the temple bro.

that juice is only serving your vanity. another bad idea

im sure you discuss this in your head sometimes the validity of your decision
Bro vanity is everything, I mean everything, If the most rewarding endeavour in Gods eyes is preaching his word then watching a movie would be wrong, playing sports, saving money, walking in the park, everything cause there is always something better you can do,.. but it doesn't work that way. We have free will and we are not fundamentalist, the 2 great cammandments overide the entire law of Moses.

Love God over everything,.. Which I do

Love your neighbor like yourself,.. which I do


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 02:47:41 PM
god will forgive that, johnny


Supposedly god will forgive anyone of everything.  You could kill 100 people, but as long as you repent you are golden.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 02:47:51 PM
Many churches and religions remove God from the equation and assemble a belief system that caters to will of people and not the will of God.  This provided we are speaking of the Christian God.

I guess it best to first define the type of slavery you think was permitted in the bible. 

Technically homosexuality is deemed a sin by God.  As a body of believers we should not exclude the homosexual community from our churches.  We shouldn't label them as sinners and brand them with a scarlet "H".  If that's the case brand me with an "L" for liar, a "T" for thief and an "A" for adulterer.   We are all sinners and should encourage one another to turn from that sin.  My position in no way upholds a homosexual lifestyle, but I won't not fellowship with a homosexual. 

Thanks for the honest, level-headed reply. Makes sense.

If you had a homsexual son, daughter, or if your mother or father told you they were gay and in hiding, how would you treat them?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
Not trying to argue, just want an opinion from a devout person as yourself.

Why do religions pick and choose what is to be followed or endorsed today?

Example.

Is slavery frowned upon in the church? The bible says it's ok? Why is it not endorsed by the church?

Homosexuality is wrong by the church, but allowed by state and churches are very vocal about it being as sin.

This has always confused me.

If the bible is the book of god, why is it not followed exactly as written?



You are only confused cause you haven't read the Bible ( I mean the whole Bible),.. The Bible is always taken out of content cause it's nearly a million words, it is easy to distort it for your own reasoning, Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery, the times change and we must change with, the Bible is followed to be flexible to change in terms of era's, governments, and traditions without inflicting foundations.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 02:52:38 PM
How do we know what middle-age churches added/subtracted from the bible to fit the agenda of the church?  Where would we be if emperor Justinian did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire?  Who changed Jesus's image to obviously have European friendly characteristics?  It begs the question gentleman.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 02:59:59 PM
Bro vanity is everything, I mean everything, If the most rewarding endeavour in Gods eyes is preaching his word then watching a movie would be wrong, playing sports, saving money, walking in the park, everything cause there is always something better you can do,.. but it doesn't work that way. We have free will and we are not fundamentalist, the 2 great cammandments overide the entire law of Moses.

Love God over everything,.. Which I do

Love your neighbor like yourself,.. which I do

yes those two most important commandments are spot on

yes i suppose even banging fine ass hoes is just as much of a sin as taking steroids if i look at it with an open eye.

but personally i would personally like to deter my friends on here from taking steroids. look at all the "hasbens" and look at how people shrink when they come off. I just dont see the rewarding factor in it at all. yes banging nice hoes while on steroids seems like a bonus but thats burning the candles from both ends, and that aint good

we all are going to burn the candle from one end no matter what to keep sane (banging hoes, drinking occasionally, eating meat) but lets just try to do only the norm but adding steroids to the mix just doesnt add up and only seems to subtract

but eh you are your best judge perhaps other areas in your life are exceedingly pristine compared to my life , so i cant really say nothing bad about you if thats the case :)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 03:03:01 PM
Supposedly god will forgive anyone of everything.  You could kill 100 people, but as long as you repent you are golden.
i dont care what the bible says about forgiveness. but i highly doubt god would forgive someone for that unless their soul was under complete power of satan. God will punish the shit out of murderers for not using there common sense, and when the punishment is over then you can be forgiven


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: The Ugly on June 19, 2012, 03:06:48 PM
i dont care what the bible says about forgiveness. but i highly doubt god would forgive someone for that unless their soul was under complete power of satan.

Satan, Johnny? Really?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
How do we know what middle-age churches added/subtracted from the bible to fit the agenda of the church?  Where would we be if emperor Justinian did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire?  Who changed Jesus's image to obviously have European friendly characteristics?  It begs the question gentleman.
Justinian?....Justinian was a Byzantium era Emperor of the 6th century AD, Christianity was already Rome' official religion. Constantine stopped all Christian persecutions and Theodosius made it a unified religion.

 Anyway, not sure what you are getting at but 1 martyred Christians results in 10 000 new followers and at the rate Christians where being Martyred the religion would have grown to enormous proportions regardless, in fact the unification and willingness of the government to acknowledge Christianity probably slowed down it's growth


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Marty Champions on June 19, 2012, 03:11:54 PM
Satan, Johnny? Really?

whatever you define as evil, give it a name if you will


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:15:18 PM
Johnny, point taken.. I actually can't say I disagree with you


Supposedly god will forgive anyone of everything.  You could kill 100 people, but as long as you repent you are golden.
Well I think anyone that claims to have God in their lives and kills a 100 people in cold blood is fucken liar, never had God to begin with.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:21:43 PM
So you assess your beliefs based upon how many others hold them? A sort of high school-style process of belief formation (the more popular, the inherently better)? Clearly, sexism and racism are true as well, then, for they have been believed by the overwhelming majority of human beings in history and by billions to this day (far more than Christianity).

No, don't put words in my mouth. If you don't know the meaning behind what's someone writes I suggest you don't reply, My point and only point when I wrote this is to all the comments being made that only stupid people believe in God which is not true, so please show me in my post where I said that's is the reason I believe.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 03:26:18 PM
You are only confused cause you haven't read the Bible ( I mean the whole Bible),.. The Bible is always taken out of content cause it's nearly a million words, it is easy to distort it for your own reasoning, Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery, the times change and we must change with, the Bible is followed to be flexible to change in terms of era's, governments, and traditions without inflicting foundations.

Admittedly, the Bible was written and inspired by a world that was much different than what t is today.  Doesn't that make it a bit outdated, so to speak.  Even on a fundamental level it would be arguably inspired by out of date experiences.


Can you tell me which sinners make it to heaven?  

Are all sins forgiven? If so, then why even worry about sinning?

 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
Admittedly, the Bible was written and inspired by a world that was much different than what t is today.  Doesn't that make it a bit outdated, so to speak.  Even on a fundamental level it would be arguably inspired by out of date experiences.


Can you tell me which sinners make it to heaven?  

Are all sins forgiven? If so, then why even worry about sinning?

 
What about every human that existed before Christianity?  Did they get grandfathered in? Or were they shit out of luck?  Do all dogs go to heaven?  Surely there would't be a seperate heaven for animals.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:36:57 PM
What about every human that existed before Christianity?  Did they get grandfathered in? Or were they shit out of luck?  Do all dogs go to heaven?  Surely there would't be a seperate heaven for animals.
You guys are funny, speculating on things and mocking, lol,... --grand fathered in-- ;D   You guys have not even read the Bible judging by your post so do not argue its contents if your are not familar with what it says about certain things, stick to your original argument that there is no God.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 03:40:37 PM
It has been said that religion was created to inflict guilt and help control a society. Remeber, when the police and security cameras are off, god is still watching people!   ;D

I can't say thay I disagree with this.  You are considered a sinner the moment you are born and spend the rest fo your life begging for forgiveness.

What ever happened to just treating others as someone's loved one and exactly how you would like to be treated yourself?

Do we really need to give a tithe and attend a ceremony every week to accomplish this?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:43:50 PM
It has been said that religion was created to inflict guilt and help control a society. Remeber, when the police and security cameras are off, god is still watching people!   ;D

I can't say thay I disagree with this.  You are considered a sinner the moment you are born and spend the rest fo your life begging for forgiveness.

What ever happened to just treating others as someone's loved one and exactly how you would like to be treated yourself?

Do we really need to give a tithe and attend a ceremony every week to accomplish this?


OK well listen to this, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus and I think religion is fucking stupid.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 03:48:24 PM
OK well listen to this, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus and I think religion is fucking stupid.

So if I believe in god, and you believe in god, and both our neighbors believe in god, and one neighbor is on a trip to Thailand, and the other is on an airplane headed to Alaska, how can god watch us all at the same time?

I have always wondered this, even as a small child.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 03:49:15 PM
I believe Jesus was real.  Just like Santa (also a real dude) his exploits have been embelished a little over the years  :D






Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 03:50:44 PM
I believe Jesus was real.  Just like Santa (also a real dude) his exploits have been embelished a little over the years  :D





Well thats a start ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 03:54:32 PM
One more question, if church and state are seperate, what defines a marriage?

If one is in a commited, exclusive, long-term relationship, and having sex, but not married by the church or state, are they sinners if they do not refer to themselves as married, but consider themselves like a married couple?

Of course, this is assuming they share a home together.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 19, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
If one takes the elevator, will thy ever see the shaft?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 04:00:08 PM
It has been said that religion was created to inflict guilt and help control a society. Remeber, when the police and security cameras are off, god is still watching people!   ;D

I can't say thay I disagree with this.  You are considered a sinner the moment you are born and spend the rest fo your life begging for forgiveness.

What ever happened to just treating others as someone's loved one and exactly how you would like to be treated yourself?

Do we really need to give a tithe and attend a ceremony every week to accomplish this?



No need to beg for anything.  All we need to do is confess our sins to God, ask for forgiveness and turn from those sins.   Those with heart aligned with Christ shouldn't have to worry about a lifetime of overcoming sin.  Now certainly we will sin, but fortunately Christ has paid the price for those sins and all we need to do is humble ourselves, confess of those sins, ask for forgiveness and turn from them (as best we're able).  We may need guidance and prayer to help us turn.

Attending church isn't a requirement for faith in Christ, but tithing is scriptural and an act of faith as well.  Attending church should be about a desire to worship and fellowship with other believers. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 04:02:45 PM
One more question, if church and state are seperate, what defines a marriage?

If one is in a commited, exclusive, long-term relationship, and having sex, but not married by the church or state, are they sinners if they do not refer to themselves as married, but consider themselves like a married couple?

Of course, this is assuming they share a home together.
I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but I will answere just in case you are not, yes they would be sinning


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 04:06:16 PM
I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but I will answere just in case you are not, yes they would be sinning

Not tolling. I do appreciate your replies. These are all questions I do have and you do stand firm and seem to understand god very well. Seriously, I do appreciate your point of view.  I enjoy these discussions.

Why would they be sinning?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: 240 is Back on June 19, 2012, 04:06:53 PM
I believe in some amazing creative energy or force that made everything in the universe.

it's way beyond our comprehension.  We are ants trying to learn calculus when it comes to the origin of universe and who/what caused it.  

There's really no denying that it all originated from some explosive energy event.  what caused that, none of us knows.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 04:09:57 PM
Listen SYNTAXMACHINE I do not care how you interprit it and I do not care about lying about it either, the bottom line is that is not what I meant, get over it.

If you think someone is dumb then that means you think you are smarter right... OK well the getbig crowd thinks anyone I repeat anyone that thinks God is real is dumb so I used the numbers to show that that is not the case because inside those numbers are very smart  people like doctors and lawyers and professors, why is it so difficult for you to grasp this. That was my meaning if it does not work for you, sue me, geeeeez!!!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
OK, now I understand what you mean. I don't think the "a billion people believe it" tidbit is relevant because that is just an appeal to popularity, which is obviously not you intend. You're right, there are very smart Christians out there and the getbig crowd is wrong to the extent that they say only unintelligent people believe in God.
Ha, syntex is a cool dude, thanks for saying that 8)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 19, 2012, 05:05:33 PM
OK, now I understand what you mean. I don't think the "a billion people believe it" tidbit is relevant because that is just an appeal to popularity, which is obviously not you intend. You're right, there are very smart Christians out there and the getbig crowd is wrong to the extent that they say only unintelligent people believe in God.

No, no all Christians are dumb rednecks that have sex with their sisters and carry torches and pitchforks and go lookin for "seenurs" in the name of God. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: deadz on June 19, 2012, 05:20:49 PM
God, LOL.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: MP on June 19, 2012, 05:59:27 PM
Not believing in God is the ultimate in arrogance.

If you don't believe you have a soul, and there is no God or life after this one ... why not just kill yourself?

Because your conscious tells you not to?

But, what is your conscious?

As you start to examine what exactly your conscious is, you start to realize there is more to life than meets the eye.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: che on June 19, 2012, 06:09:58 PM
No need to beg for anything.  All we need to do is confess our sins to God, ask for forgiveness and turn from those sins.   Those with heart aligned with Christ shouldn't have to worry about a lifetime of overcoming sin.  Now certainly we will sin, but fortunately Christ has paid the price for those sins and all we need to do is humble ourselves, confess of those sins, ask for forgiveness and turn from them (as best we're able).  We may need guidance and prayer to help us turn.

 

Do you really believe this shit ?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 19, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
So if I believe in god, and you believe in god, and both our neighbors believe in god, and one neighbor is on a trip to Thailand, and the other is on an airplane headed to Alaska, how can god watch us all at the same time?

I have always wondered this, even as a small child.
My God, that's some small minded thinking right there! The "GOD" concept suggests that the creator isn't affected by earthly limitations - the alleged Creator is all Powerful, all Seeing and not limited by the same restrictions you are - Way to turn God into an Idiot!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 06:35:26 PM
My God, that's some small minded thinking right there! The "GOD" concept suggests that the creator isn't affected by earthly limitations - the alleged Creator is all Powerful, all Seeing and not limited by the same restrictions you are - Way to turn God into an Idiot!
lol


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Parker on June 19, 2012, 06:36:22 PM
Satan, Johnny? Really?
The Good, The Bad, and the The Ugly


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: The Ugly on June 19, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
The Good, The Bad, and the The Ugly

 :)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 07:16:29 PM
life would really seem pointless if you had strong disbeliefs in god

How does a "disbelief in god" make life pointless? Please be specific.


how can you be happy if you feel life is pointless

I don't believe in any deities, and yet I don't feel life is pointless. So before we talk about the happy stuff, how about you answer the simple question: How does a "disbelief in god" make life pointless? Remember to please be specific.


worship a god

Which god?


any god

Oh. Any god. OK... got it. So any god? Even, say, Marduk?  


theorize on his capabilities

So first I believe, then I theorize? Why theorize at that point?


he doesnt have to be omnipotent, just beleive in something more intelligent than yourself...

You don't have to believe in something more intelligent than myself. You have concrete evidence that there are people smarter than yourself; no belief required. I hardly think it makes sense to believe in them as gods though, because you know they aren't gods: they're just smarter than you. And that's hardly a god-like feat.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 07:20:45 PM
You are only confused cause you haven't read the Bible ( I mean the whole Bible),.. The Bible is always taken out of content cause it's nearly a million words, it is easy to distort it for your own reasoning, Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery, the times change and we must change with, the Bible is followed to be flexible to change in terms of era's, governments, and traditions without inflicting foundations.

So, basically what you're saying is that, in your opinion, God has no problem with slavery qua slavery. In fact, he's A-OK with slavery provided that slavery isn't against human laws. Got it... ::)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 07:31:28 PM
Not believing in God is the ultimate in arrogance.

In which God?


If you don't believe you have a soul, and there is no God or life after this one ... why not just kill yourself?

Because I like being alive, and I am enjoying the limited time on earth way too much to willingly cut it short. No god - or soul - required!


Because your conscious tells you not to?

Because, as I said before, I like being alive, and I am enjoying the limited time on earth way too much to willingly cut it short. No god - or soul - required!


But, what is your conscious?

Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.


As you start to examine what exactly your conscious is, you start to realize there is more to life than meets the eye.

And what is that? A super-happy-fun-life that's better than life in every way, but conveniently enough, only happens after death when we shed our mortal coil and transform into some sort of luminous disembodied beings?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: MP on June 19, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
If I'm wrong, then there's nothing to worry about.

If you're wrong, you might be fucked in the next life.

Happy trails.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 19, 2012, 07:43:19 PM
So, basically what you're saying is that, in your opinion, God has no problem with slavery qua slavery. In fact, he's A-OK with slavery provided that slavery isn't against human laws. Got it... ::)
Once again you guys are picking bits and pieces here and there, you have to see the entire picture, very simple to put it the way you are and looking like it's wong,. You guys have not read the Bible so you won't be able to understand some of it without reading the whole thing.

I expected a little more from you though, considering you are clearly 1 of the more educated guys on here Answere this.. is there 1 nation on the entire planet that didn't pave the way through slavery,.. No, do you want to know why? cause it is the only way a nation can survive, you can't change history, you guys think you could do a better job back then? Men have the same brains then as now, the only difference is lands now are already conquered, the days of conquest are over. Alternative methods are used that work that would result in chaos then and nations would be easy targets.

So my point slavery wasn't wrong back then weather it is approved by the Bible or not.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 07:52:00 PM
Ah, Pascal's Wager! It's been discussed, analyzed and dissected since the time Pascal first formulated it, so there's really not much I could add to that discussion, but I will try.


If I'm wrong, then there's nothing to worry about.

Not true. Perhaps you believe in the wrong deity, and your earthly actions displease the real deity. Besides, think of all the things I wouldn't do in this life if you're wrong but if I acted as if you were right. My neighbor's wife is pretty hot - and she seems to like muscles ;D


If you're wrong, you might be fucked in the next life.

If there is a god and a next life, and that god is willing to punish me in the next life for using my rational faculty (which, some say, he endowed me with) in this life, then that says a whole lot about that god.


Happy trails.

Thanks - you too.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: haider on June 19, 2012, 07:58:24 PM
So what's the consensus of getbig's intellectuals, is there a God?  ???


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 19, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
If I'm wrong, then there's nothing to worry about.

If you're wrong, you might be fucked in the next life.

Happy trails.

Pascals Wager is the poorest argument for the belief in a deity. It has been refuted numerous times.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: haider on June 19, 2012, 08:01:09 PM
Pascals Wager is the poorest argument for the belief in a deity. It has been refuted numerous times.
Its one of the few ones I do like actually. It does no good to prove a particular diety or religion though.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 19, 2012, 08:03:17 PM
Once again you guys are picking bits and pieces here and there, you have to see the entire picture, very simple to put it the way you are and looking like it's wong,. You guys have not read the Bible so you won't be able to understand some of it without reading the whole thing.

As I've mentioned before, I've read the entire Bible (more than once, actually) in English and Greek.


I expected a little more from you though, considering you are clearly 1 of the more educated guys on here Answere this.. is there 1 nation on the entire planet that didn't pave the way through slavery,.. No, do you want to know why? cause it is the only way a nation can survive, you can't change history, you guys think you could do a better job back then? Men have the same brains then as now, the only difference is lands now are already conquered, the days of conquest are over. Alternative methods are used that work that would result in chaos then and nations would be easy targets.

So my point slavery wasn't wrong back then weather it is approved by the Bible or not.

Wow... just wow... :o

You wrote: "Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery". You are, in essence, asserting that the God of the Bible doesn't see slavery itself as wrong - it's just one of those things that he's indifferent about - and that it was OK since it was legal back then.

Do you really believe that what is legal is, necessarily, moral? Is adultery, which is legal, also moral?

The question isn't whether the laws of the land allowed slavery or not! From a moral standpoint, slavery is either wrong or it isn't. I assert that whether two thousand years ago, to hundred years ago or two days ago slavery was wrong. I assert that regardless of the prevailing law of the land at the time, slavery was, is and will be wrong, no matter what the law happens to say.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 19, 2012, 08:10:34 PM
Its one of the few ones I do like actually. It does no good to prove a particular diety or religion though.

Well, you could look at it like that. On the other hand, you give up something dearly in this life when you believe in a deity, especially the really religious people. If you die and find out there is no God, you spent a whole life doing what? Praying and not masturbating. Yeah, Ill pass ha lol


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 10:16:32 PM
Not believing in God is the ultimate in arrogance.

If you don't believe you have a soul, and there is no God or life after this one ... why not just kill yourself?

Because your conscious tells you not to?

But, what is your conscious?

As you start to examine what exactly your conscious is, you start to realize there is more to life than meets the eye.

God is much like an imaginary friend. He's always there. He never talks back. He makes you feel like you're never alone. Whether it be real or not, he can give you hope when nothing else can.

You are right. There is always more than meets the eye.

Living life without God or any other crutch is a very challenging quest. That is being conscious at its highest level. Living in reality.

Don't get me wrong. God, for some people, is an amazing tool to help them get in touch with reality.  God can help people understand the otherwise, incoherent thoughts and events life throws at them.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 10:27:02 PM
My God, that's some small minded thinking right there! The "GOD" concept suggests that the creator isn't affected by earthly limitations - the alleged Creator is all Powerful, all Seeing and not limited by the same restrictions you are - Way to turn God into an Idiot!

I'm being serious here...what proof is there that God is any more real than Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny or The Tooth Fairy?

I will say, none of the aforementioned have a book "supposedly inspired" by them, that has been rewritten multiple times by man.





Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: reclifter on June 19, 2012, 11:30:17 PM
Once again you guys are picking bits and pieces here and there, you have to see the entire picture, very simple to put it the way you are and looking like it's wong,. You guys have not read the Bible so you won't be able to understand some of it without reading the whole thing.

I expected a little more from you though, considering you are clearly 1 of the more educated guys on here Answere this.. is there 1 nation on the entire planet that didn't pave the way through slavery,.. No, do you want to know why? cause it is the only way a nation can survive, you can't change history, you guys think you could do a better job back then? Men have the same brains then as now, the only difference is lands now are already conquered, the days of conquest are over. Alternative methods are used that work that would result in chaos then and nations would be easy targets.

So my point slavery wasn't wrong back then weather it is approved by the Bible or not.

Great explanation...by your terms and explanations, why is premarital sex or homosexuality considered a sin?  After all, it is legal.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: maxer on June 20, 2012, 12:13:39 AM
most adequate college educations will debunk the god myth


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 20, 2012, 12:35:15 AM
Not believing in God is the ultimate in arrogance.

Hi God!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:02:45 AM
As I've mentioned before, I've read the entire Bible (more than once, actually) in English and Greek.


Wow... just wow... :o

You wrote: "Slavery according to the Bible is a sin, why cause it is breaking the laws of the land, why wasn't it a sin in the days of Moses?,, ..simply because the laws of the land allowed slavery". You are, in essence, asserting that the God of the Bible doesn't see slavery itself as wrong - it's just one of those things that he's indifferent about - and that it was OK since it was legal back then.

Do you really believe that what is legal is, necessarily, moral? Is adultery, which is legal, also moral?

The question isn't whether the laws of the land allowed slavery or not! From a moral standpoint, slavery is either wrong or it isn't. I assert that whether two thousand years ago, to hundred years ago or two days ago slavery was wrong. I assert that regardless of the prevailing law of the land at the time, slavery was, is and will be wrong, no matter what the law happens to say.
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it but anyone who has studied the origins of a nations and the history of war and how a nation has to assemble as one body to survive will disagree, you have to pick the lesser of 2 evil, incorporate slavery or run the risk of genocide.

So you have read the Bible, fair enough then you know God has commanded many evils upon man, so why are you surprised. The Bible follows 3 different approaches to one making a moral decision;...

 1. The decision has to be necessary, this is above all, is it necessary to kill someone to protect your family, yes. Is it a sin?,... yes. Is it accepted by God, yes

 2. The law of the land has to be followed no matter what, the Bible makes it clear. Is it a sin to work on the sabbath? yes, during the Babylonion exile the Israelites where forced to work on the sabbath, was it accepted by God,. yes.

 3. Finally the commandments, which where summarized into only 2 in the New Testament, Love God and Love your neighbor

You may find this conflicting but I don't cause the world doesn't turn smoothly you know and it doesn't always work to use one set of laws without any flexibility


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 01:06:22 AM
Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:10:19 AM
Great explanation...by your terms and explanations, why is premarital sex or homosexuality considered a sin?  After all, it is legal.
Just cause it is legal doesn't mean it is not a sin, it doesn't work that way nor did I say that it did. What I said was if by keeping the law of the land you are caused to sin then it becomes accepted by God because you have to keep the law of the land.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:13:14 AM
Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.
but it isn't a one word answere though.

put it this way, you know a guy is going to kill and rape 10 girls in the next 24 hours, I would consider my decision to kill him a moral one.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 01:22:52 AM
but it isn't a one word answere though.

It is. Either forced servitude is wrong or it isn't.

put it this way, you know a guy is going to kill and rape 10 girls in the next 24 hours, I would consider my decision to kill him a moral one.

It is immoral to initiate force. It is not immoral to use force against someone who initiated its use.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:25:35 AM
It is. Either forced servitude is wrong or it isn't.

It is immoral to initiate force. It is not immoral to use force against someone who initiated its use.
Bro you are acting way to political here, different situations call for different measures. Slavery was not immoral when it was necessary.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 01:35:04 AM
Bro you are acting way to political here, different situations call for different measures. Slavery was not immoral when it was necessary.

::)

So you are claiming that what is necessary is moral? That's neat, I guess.

Name one case when, according to you, slavery was necessary.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 20, 2012, 01:42:26 AM
Can you answer one simple question: are slavery and forced servitude immoral or not? It's a one-word answer one way or another.
From the Slaves perspective, yes - from the slave owners NO!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:56:39 AM
::)

So you are claiming that what is necessary is moral? That's neat, I guess.

Name one case when, according to you, slavery was necessary.
Every case in antequity, every single case, If you didn't rely on a massive workforce your nation would be overthrown within minutes.

After Cyrus defeated the Babylonians he declared heavy slavery and was the birth to the achaemenid dynasty. Later Darius withdrew 30% of it's slavery from the workforce to incorporate trade and commerce cause the city of Babylon was a thriving metropolis and visitors where coming from all over the world

On the other end half of Greece was preparing for an invasion. Not only did the Greeks have heavy slavery but also where killing children at birth with deformities, creating a military stronghold

After the greeks attacked, although outnumbered 2 to 1 by the Persians, Alexander took out their flanks and the Persian couldn't use there numbers cause they didn't have enough equipment due to low production.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: calfzilla on June 20, 2012, 02:15:44 AM
To the OP, just because we don't understand something doesn't mean god exists. Also there is a huge difference IMO between god (if one does exist) and religion. All religions are crap and shams to control people and get power. If god exists which I don't believe, he ain't talking to anyone on earth nor does he care who prays to him.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 20, 2012, 02:29:40 AM
God gonna hurt you a real bad.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 02:43:46 AM
It's unclear that slavery was necessary in the cases you cite. But even if it was, necessity doesn't imply that something is moral; the end doesn't justify the means.

You may need a fancy car - your need doesn't make stealing my car moral.

You may need food. Your need doesn't make taking my food moral.

You may need someone to work on your fields or in your company. Your need does not mean for in me to work for you against my wishes moral.

Your needs don't give you a blank check tto use others.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 02:50:19 AM
It's unclear that slavery was necessary in the cases you cite. But even if it was, necessity doesn't imply that something is moral; the end doesn't justify the means.

You may need a fancy car - your need doesn't make stealing my car moral.

You may need food. Your need doesn't make taking my food moral.

You may need someone to work on your fields or in your company. Your need does not mean for in me to work for you against my wishes moral.

Your needs don't give you a blank check tto use others.
When there is a cause necessity does imply that something is moral. the end doesn't justify the means, however picking the lesser of 2 evils is a good moral decision for those involved, always.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 20, 2012, 02:59:01 AM
There's no such thing as 'sin' or 'immorality', these are all man made concepts and vary according to the current norms and culture.

Humans are animals just like any other animals, only difference is that we developed speech which allowed us to process our thoughts in words. I believe speech is what triggered the development of our brains, not to mention the transfer of collective knowledge which other other animals aren't capable of.

If you leave a human being to grow up in the bush without any education or previous knowledge of human civilization, they would behave just like any other animal. Without being taught the difference between right or wrong, the concept wouldn't exist. Like all animals, they would do whatever is necessary to survive.

There is no built in mechanism of right and wrong.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 20, 2012, 05:21:29 AM
While this is a reasonable position, I'd like to play God's advocate for a moment. On your view, what can be said of seemingly immoral events like the Holocaust? The vocabulary of morality bunk as it is, there can be no ascriptions of 'immorality' or 'wrongness.' So, how do you properly describe the event? Also, you need to explain why moral language is ubiquitous despite its being bunk. How is it that everyone on the planet competently uses the language and understands the words if it is all an illusion?

What I mean by 'immorality' or 'wrongness' is that it is whatever we've been taught or conditioned to believe.

In the case of the Holocaust, if German children were brought up to believe that killing Jews was a good thing and the right thing to do, then they would not have viewed it as 'wrong'.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 20, 2012, 05:44:07 AM
What I mean by 'immorality' or 'wrongness' is that it is whatever we've been taught or conditioned to believe.

In the case of the Holocaust, if German children were brought up to believe that killing Jews was a good thing and the right thing to do, then they would not have viewed it as 'wrong'.


Wrong is what those in power decide is wrong - these will include murder, rape and theft - that is unless you do them on a mass scale on a weaker more vulnerable civilisation, then you are a Freedom Fighter for the Good of the World!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 20, 2012, 06:14:01 AM
God gonna hurt you a real bad.
Go read your Bible


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 20, 2012, 07:10:49 AM
I don't understand the logic that God gave men free will, but then created rules and morals they must follow.  Doesn't sound like free will then.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 09:10:25 AM
When there is a cause necessity does imply that something is moral. the end doesn't justify the means, however picking the lesser of 2 evils is a good moral decision for those involved, always.

So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 20, 2012, 09:12:57 AM
So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!

Is it stealing or taking? 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Is it stealing or taking?

He said that cause, by necessity, makes the action moral. So, if he needs my car and I refuse to give it to him, according to him since he needs it, it's moral to take it. Since I refuse to give it to him, he has to take it by force - either by beating me up and taking the keys or by breaking a window and hot-wiring it. Either way, he takes my car without my consent. I call that stealing.

I assert that stealing my car is immoral. He says that stealing my car is OK as long as he really needs the car.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 20, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
He said that cause, by necessity, makes the action moral. So, if he needs my car and I refuse to give it to him, according to him since he needs it, it's moral to take it. Since I refuse to give it to him, he has to take it by force - either by beating me up and taking the keys or by breaking a window and hot-wiring it. Either way, he takes my car without my consent. I call that stealing.

I assert that stealing my car is immoral. He says that stealing my car is OK as long as he really needs the car.

Wasn't Christianity spread by the same immoral sin of stealing and using force?  Remember the Crusades?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 10:40:53 AM
Wasn't Christianity spread by the same immoral sin of stealing and using force?  Remember the Crusades?

I don't think that's particularly relevant in the context of this discussion.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 20, 2012, 01:02:48 PM
So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!
sorry bro that's not what the term necessary means in the context that I am using it, so listen carefully, "necessary" the term I am referring to in my meaning to justify a moral act has to be life and death, has to be a true "need" you need water, you need food, you need oxygen, you don't need a car, wow, I have to walk on eggshells with you.  :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 20, 2012, 02:50:33 PM
sorry bro that's not what the term necessary means in the context that I am using it, so listen carefully, "necessary" the term I am referring to in my meaning to justify a moral act has to be life and death, has to be a true "need" you need water, you need food, you need oxygen, you don't need a car, wow, I have to walk on eggshells with you.  :D

OK. I have food. It's necessary for you to live. You are claiming that your need makes it moral for you to steal my food? Some morality...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 20, 2012, 02:59:27 PM
To the OP, just because we don't understand something doesn't mean god exists. Also there is a huge difference IMO between god (if one does exist) and religion. All religions are crap and shams to control people and get power. If god exists which I don't believe, he ain't talking to anyone on earth nor does he care who prays to him.

God of the Gaps Argument.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: slate on June 20, 2012, 05:09:44 PM
When there is a cause necessity does imply that something is moral. the end doesn't justify the means, however picking the lesser of 2 evils is a good moral decision for those involved, always.

I am sorry but having blue stars essentially means you are not qualified for rational thought. You cant have it both ways

The two things are incompatible. It is a well known fact in GB that a member with blue stars trying to articulate a thought is equivalent  to a jew with a david's star armband standing up to discuss a point of argument in a nazi congress in  1930s Germany

i.e you better remain seated


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 20, 2012, 05:26:06 PM
.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: che on June 20, 2012, 05:28:54 PM
I believe in religion


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: slate on June 20, 2012, 05:35:49 PM
.

yeah but they went to heavenly bliss, whilst the gays are burning in hell

nothing wrong with children dying young and going to heaven. who the fuck wants to suffer in this shitty world for decades when heaven beckons

i wished i died and went to heaven when i was a kid- and so should u, unless ur with the gays


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 20, 2012, 06:13:17 PM
yeah but they went to heavenly bliss, whilst the gays are burning in hell

nothing wrong with children dying young and going to heaven. who the fuck wants to suffer in this shitty world for decades when heaven beckons

i wished i died and went to heaven when i was a kid- and so should u, unless ur with the gays
Now I'm really confused. Do the pedophile priests go to heaven?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 12:34:30 AM
Yet another intelligent poster that somehow 'misunderstands' your meaning and gets a lecture on the nature of meaning from you. Hmm, is this a coincidence? Really, it's ok if this isn't your first language; your terrible grammar and form is forgivable if this is the case. Is it?
sue me  ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 12:43:12 AM
So if you need my car it's moral for you to steal it. Got it!
Is it theft to say you own it in the first place? The apple tree doesn't discriminate, the apples are for everyone!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 12:45:07 AM
Now I'm really confused. Do the pedophile priests go to heaven?


Yes, the are in charge of Heavens day-care centre!  Nobody's upset though, cause there all in Heaven!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 21, 2012, 01:14:47 AM
Is it theft to say you own it in the first place? The apple tree doesn't discriminate, the apples are for everyone!

Well, let's see... I paid for it for the company that manufactured it and, I can exercise all the legal hallmarks of ownership over said vehicle. Yes, I'm pretty sure I own it. And no, I'm pretty sure saying that I own something I own isn't theft, unless something happened while I was asleep and this is actually Bizarro World.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 03:24:07 AM
Well, let's see... I paid for it for the company that manufactured it and, I can exercise all the legal hallmarks of ownership over said vehicle. Yes, I'm pretty sure I own it. And no, I'm pretty sure saying that I own something I own isn't theft, unless something happened while I was asleep and this is actually Bizarro World.
I think you miss the point - all private property laws are theft, as they take what is given to humans by nature and place it in the hands of the greedy - personally, it seems an obscene waste of resources to own anything, like the fact my car is used for 5% of the day, and then left to waste away when it is obvious that others could benefit from the sharing of that resource.  You have just been brainwashed to think that private property is a normal thing.  Private property is a disgusting concept obviously kept going by those who have a desire for control and power over others - it is a fear based concept, that is anti sharing - essentially it's just more English Bullshit created in the name of civilisation, when in fact the so called civilised world commit the most horrendous of atrocities! What Civilisation calls civility - is just EVIL in disguise!

…But as a matter of fact, my dear More, to tell you what I really think, as long as you have private property, and as long as cash money is the measure of all things, it is really not possible for a nation to be governed justly or happily.  For justice cannot exist where all the best things in life are held by the worst citizens; nor can anyone be happy where property is limited to a few, since those few are always uneasy and the many are utterly wretched.”  –Sir Thomas More, Utopia, 1515.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 21, 2012, 05:05:02 AM
I think you miss the point - all private property laws are theft, as they take what is given to humans by nature and place it in the hands of the greedy - personally, it seems an obscene waste of resources to own anything, like the fact my car is used for 5% of the day, and then left to waste away when it is obvious that others could benefit from the sharing of that resource.  You have just been brainwashed to think that private property is a normal thing.  Private property is a disgusting concept obviously kept going by those who have a desire for control and power over others - it is a fear based concept, that is anti sharing - essentially it's just more English Bullshit created in the name of civilisation, when in fact the so called civilised world commit the most horrendous of atrocities! What Civilisation calls civility - is just EVIL in disguise!

…But as a matter of fact, my dear More, to tell you what I really think, as long as you have private property, and as long as cash money is the measure of all things, it is really not possible for a nation to be governed justly or happily.  For justice cannot exist where all the best things in life are held by the worst citizens; nor can anyone be happy where property is limited to a few, since those few are always uneasy and the many are utterly wretched.”  –Sir Thomas More, Utopia, 1515.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag

You are so funny, man. You're a one-trick pony with your 'everyone but me is brainwashed, the elite control everything, all popular Western institutions are bad' schtick. You are like that that annoying girl present in every freshman class at university who makes disparaging remarks about the 'system' and its evils and favors socialism without realizing just how dumb and naive she really is.

Here is the best part: you are living in a first-world society and accruing all the benefits of these institutions. The property you own, police force  that keeps you from getting robbed, roads you travel on, healthcare you receive, and education you've acquired, are all a part of this evil system. If it's so bad then relinquish these things buy a one-way ticket to Tibet or Nepal, places where you can meditate all day and live as a serf.

Finally, if your favorite conspiracy theories are true (unsurprisingly, you still haven't provided a single shred of evidence for any of them), then you are worse than the rest of us because you possess the truth and yet are doing literally nothing about it while simultaneously drawing the above-mentioned benefits from the system. 9/11 was an inside job? What are you going to do about it? Evil bankers run the world and are responsible for everything bad that happens? What are you going to do about it? Western society is inherently injust? What are you going to do about it?

If you really believe all these horrendous abuses are occurring, then you need to do something about it - the only response to these terrible crimes. "Put up or shut up," because otherwise you'll be just as complicit as the rest of us. I look forward to hearing about your new plans of action (complaining on bodybuilding forums doesn't count).


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 05:12:33 AM
You are so funny, man. You're a one-trick pony with your 'everyone but me is brainwashed, the elite control everything, all popular Western institutions are bad' schtick. You are like that that annoying girl present in every freshman class at university who makes disparaging remarks about the 'system' and its evils and favors socialism without realizing just how dumb and naive she really is.

Here is the best part: you are living in a first-world society and accruing all the benefits of these institutions. The property you own, police force  that keeps you from getting robbed, roads you travel on, healthcare you receive, and education you've acquired, are all a part of this evil system. If it's so bad then relinquish these things buy a one-way ticket to Tibet or Nepal, places where you can meditate all day and live as a serf.

Finally, if your favorite conspiracy theories are true (unsurprisingly, you still haven't provided a single shred of evidence for any of them), then you are worse than the rest of us because you possess the truth and yet are doing literally nothing about it while simultaneously drawing the above-mentioned benefits from the system. 9/11 was an inside job? What are you going to do about it? Evil bankers run the world and are responsible for everything bad that happens? What are you going to do about it? Western society is inherently injust? What are you going to do about it?

If you really believe all these horrendous abuses are occurring, then you need to do something about it - the only response to these terrible crimes. "Put up or shut up," because otherwise you'll be just as complicit as the rest of us. I look forward to hearing about your new plans of action (complaining on bodybuilding forums doesn't count).
WOW, great fucken post, brother I solute you..... E-kul's problem is he has no idea of the world's history of war and battles, if he did he would know that the era we are living in is paradise, sunshine and flowers, never since the beginning of time has their been a time with this amount of peace in the world, never, enjoy it while it last cause something may come very soon.

Oh BTW your "presumption" is wrong.....Spanish is my first language,..  :D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 05:32:49 AM
You are so funny, man. You're a one-trick pony with your 'everyone but me is brainwashed, the elite control everything, all popular Western institutions are bad' schtick. You are like that that annoying girl present in every freshman class at university who makes disparaging remarks about the 'system' and its evils and favors socialism without realizing just how dumb and naive she really is.

Here is the best part: you are living in a first-world society and accruing all the benefits of these institutions. The property you own, police force  that keeps you from getting robbed, roads you travel on, healthcare you receive, and education you've acquired, are all a part of this evil system. If it's so bad then relinquish these things buy a one-way ticket to Tibet or Nepal, places where you can meditate all day and live as a serf.

Finally, if your favorite conspiracy theories are true (unsurprisingly, you still haven't provided a single shred of evidence for any of them), then you are worse than the rest of us because you possess the truth and yet are doing literally nothing about it while simultaneously drawing the above-mentioned benefits from the system. 9/11 was an inside job? What are you going to do about it? Evil bankers run the world and are responsible for everything bad that happens? What are you going to do about it? Western society is inherently injust? What are you going to do about it?

If you really believe all these horrendous abuses are occurring, then you need to do something about it - the only response to these terrible crimes. "Put up or shut up," because otherwise you'll be just as complicit as the rest of us. I look forward to hearing about your new plans of action (complaining on bodybuilding forums doesn't count).
You really are a fool, the very things you say I have benefited from have been a form of torture to me, that is why I sought the truth! I have denounced property, and own very little, I avoid the health care system like the plague as I care for my health, The Police are EVIL and I would NEVER, and I mean under no circumstances call them, as I care about my safety and the Education I acquired was just indoctrination, it took me years to shake that shit off, and I resent the Public Schooling system deeply. And the fact you think Tibet is a place where Monks meditate all day just shows how little education you have.  Tibet has been brutally occupied for the last 60 years by the Chinese, committing genocide on the Tibetan people, for the Tibetans the situation has become so oppressed and unbearable they regularly burn themselves to death in Public.  TIBET is a living HELL for both the Chinese and the Tibetans! far from some spiritual haven!  I also participate in demonstrations and am a member of certain movements close to my heart.  I have no interest in fleeing from the Country I was born, I prefer to stay and fight the good fight, like any decent human being should be forced from his land because he cares about peace, justice and freedom.  I stay to fuck with those arseholes, like yourself, who cant stand an opposing view, generally a view that abhors misuse of power, murder and rape and then calls it goodness!  And talking about it is the solution, it is the fact that people stand idly by, say nothing while an Elitist System murders the third world and then tells it's people its for there own good.  Everyone I speak too gets it, I will not die a closed minded, ignorant arsehole who chased pussy, money or fame.  Also, I fuck with the Government in my own way!  Not all of us are unskilled braindead idiots! But that is all I can say on the matter!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 05:45:04 AM
WOW, great fucken post, brother I solute you..... E-kul's problem is he has no idea of the world's history of war and battles, if he did he would know that the era we are living in is paradise, sunshine and flowers, never since the beginning of time has their been a time with this amount of peace in the world, never, enjoy it while it last cause something may come very soon.

Oh BTW your "presumption" is wrong.....Spanish is my first language,..  :D
Like I said, brainwashing and indoctrination are incredibly powerful!  There hasn't been very little peace in history, the world has been perpetually at war, and the bodycount is higher now than ever before - once again, only someone who was brainwashed would believe this is a peaceful time in the world - Man The US Government really knows how to keep its citizens uninformed - if the killing of millions of innocent civilians over the past century is considered paradise, you can stick that dystopia up your arse.  People can call me what they like, all I care about is the truth, and you guys are so far from it, you will never know, because your indoctrination teaches you to ignore dissent and opposing opinions, the average person is so afraid of the truth it isn't funny!  A citizens imagination is literally squashed by the age 7, this is evident in the adult population who have trouble imagining the suffering of others, especially the suffering that they themselves have caused by support of there murderous politicians.  The very fact you make fun of ideAS that aren't like your own is part of your conditioning - you are conditioned to try and bring your fellow citizens into line (so to speak) when they speak of dissenting views or ideas that seem way out to your small minds!  But for those who are free, your attempts of abuse are laughed at, for our minds are free!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 21, 2012, 05:58:25 AM
BAAAAAAAA.  Spoken like a sheep caught in the system.

You are so funny, man. You're a one-trick pony with your 'everyone but me is brainwashed, the elite control everything, all popular Western institutions are bad' schtick. You are like that that annoying girl present in every freshman class at university who makes disparaging remarks about the 'system' and its evils and favors socialism without realizing just how dumb and naive she really is.

Here is the best part: you are living in a first-world society and accruing all the benefits of these institutions. The property you own, police force  that keeps you from getting robbed, roads you travel on, healthcare you receive, and education you've acquired, are all a part of this evil system. If it's so bad then relinquish these things buy a one-way ticket to Tibet or Nepal, places where you can meditate all day and live as a serf.

Finally, if your favorite conspiracy theories are true (unsurprisingly, you still haven't provided a single shred of evidence for any of them), then you are worse than the rest of us because you possess the truth and yet are doing literally nothing about it while simultaneously drawing the above-mentioned benefits from the system. 9/11 was an inside job? What are you going to do about it? Evil bankers run the world and are responsible for everything bad that happens? What are you going to do about it? Western society is inherently injust? What are you going to do about it?

If you really believe all these horrendous abuses are occurring, then you need to do something about it - the only response to these terrible crimes. "Put up or shut up," because otherwise you'll be just as complicit as the rest of us. I look forward to hearing about your new plans of action (complaining on bodybuilding forums doesn't count).


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 21, 2012, 06:01:35 AM
(http://think-aboutit.com/images/001-M.jpg)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 06:02:20 AM
Who said anything about the last 100 years, I am talking about today, this generation and the last 30 years, you are forgetting there are 7 billion people alive , the government isn't going to operate smoothly obviously there are hidden agendas and conspiracies, there always has been but so fucken what it is keeping us at peace right now, the most peaceful time the world has ever known, bro go study your history every nation including the US had mandatory military recruitment, imagine your son just turned 17 and got sent somewhere to get his head chopped off, where are the bodies the governments are killing, where are all these rapes you speak of, your a fundamentalist that has been brain washed, bro the numbers don't lie, and they are down right now so obviously the powers that be are doing something right. Oh and just so you know the times are so peaceful that my nephew has been trying to join the military for 2 years and has been turned down cause the infantry, armor division, or artillery is not hiring.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: The_Punisher on June 21, 2012, 06:09:41 AM
find yourself in an airplane plunging down into the ocean where everyone is screaming for their lives and you'll find out if you really believe in God


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 21, 2012, 06:10:36 AM
jefferson airplane


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 06:12:31 AM
Who said anything about the last 100 years, I am talking about today, this generation and the last 30 years, you are forgetting there are 7 billion people alive , the government isn't going to operate smoothly obviously there are hidden agendas and conspiracies, there always has been but so fucken what it is keeping us at peace right now, the most peaceful time the world has ever known, bro go study your history every nation including the US had mandatory military recruitment, imagine your son just turned 17 and got sent somewhere to get his head chopped off, where are the bodies the governments are killing, where are all these rapes you speak of, your a fundamentalist that has been brain washed, bro the numbers don't lie, and they are down right now so obviously the powers that be are doing something right. Oh and just so you know the times are so peaceful that my nephew has been trying to join the military for 2 years and has been turned down cause the infantry, armor division, or artillery is not hiring.
Where do you want me to start, the ORB puts the bodycount in IRAQ at over ONE MILLION, and that's just taken from a four year period - ONE MILLION - and you act like that is nothing - As a result of attempted murders and death threats 2 million Iraqis have left Iraq - do you really think your government is going to tell its people that they are murdering raping thugs, of course not, they are going to force feed there citiZens propaganda and outright lies, as the government knows there citizens are stupid enough to believe it! (Thats because your Government keeps you deliberately ignorant and ill informed)  To think that US Soldiers aren't raping women and children is NAIVE! Shame on You! Maybe you could start your research with The Mahmudiyah killings - THE gang-rape and murder of a 14-year-old IRAQ girl by U.S. troops occurred on March 12, 2006 - if your mind begins to open after that - I suggest you study Noam Chomsky - he isn't considered the greatest Intellectual alive today for no reason!

For those who enjoy the Paradise that is THE US of A - here is why the rest of the world will rejoice when the inevitable downfall occurs!

Americas Murder Count  over the last 70 years! The lifespan of the average male (give or take)

1940s - nuked Japan.
Death toll: 145,000 to date in Nagasaki, 250,000 in Hiroshima

1947-49 - U.S. helps command extreme-right Greece party in Civil War.
Death toll: about 70,000 contributed by US-backed forces

1948-54 - CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion in Philippines.
Death toll: about 11,000

1950 - Independence movement crushed in Ponce, Puerto Rico
Death toll: conservative historians estimated about 8,000 peasants

1950-53 - Korean War
Death toll: about 1,776,000

1952 - CIA overthrows Democracy in Iran, installs Shah
Death toll: about 20,000

1954 - CIA directs invasion of Guatemala after new Democracy there nationalized U.S.-occupied lands
Death toll: about 140,000 missing and dead

1958 - In Lebanon, marine occupation against rebels
Death toll: about 2,000

1960-75+ - Vietnam War including Cambodia and Laos
Death toll: about 4,502,000 including civilians and resulting famines (conservative estimates)

1961 - Cuba's Bay of Pigs Invasion fails
Death toll: about 4,000

1963 - In Iraq, CIA organizes coup against President and agrees to back formerly exiled Saddam
Death toll: about 7,000 including civilians

1964 - In Panama, troops kill protesters against US-owned canal
Death toll: about 1,000

1965 - CIA assists Indonesian coup
Death toll: about 900,000

1966 - Troops and bombers threaten pro-communist parties in Dominican Republic
Death toll: about 3,000

1966-96 - Green berets in Guatemala against rebels, US backs pro-American forces in country until 1996
Death toll: about 200,000

1970 - Directs marine invasion of Oman
Death toll: about 2,000

1973 - CIA directs coup to oust elected Marxist president in Chile
Death toll: 30,000... 3,000 later disappeared under US-installed dictator

1976-92 - CIA assists South-African rebels in Angola
Death toll: median estimate at 550,000

1981-90 - CIA directs Contra invasions in Nicaragua
Death toll: median estimate at 30,000

1982-84 - Marines expel Lebanese rebels, aided by Israel
Death toll: 40,000

1987-88 - US intervenes for Iraq against Iran
Death toll: about 150,000 during time-frame, 100,000 during Desert Storm, 350,000 from resulting famine

1989 - US invades to oust CIA-installed Panamanian government gone rouge
Death toll: 2,000

1992-94 - US-led occupation of Somalia during civil war
Death toll: 50,000 in combat, 300,000 by starvation

2001+ - US Occupies Afghanistan
Death toll: 120,000 including civilians and combatants and resulting Opium Wars

2003+ - Iraqi War
Death toll: 665,000 also by starvation, displacement


TOTAL: 10,431,000

And that doesn't even include POWs, classified information, and WW2 pre-nuke!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 21, 2012, 06:39:35 AM
What if today some man came floating down into Times Square proclaiming to be God's son and that his name is Bob Jones.  He performs a few parlor tricks to prove he is special.  Chances are 99% of the people will call this guy crazy and dismiss him as god's son, yet people trust and believe the bible without any hesitation.  It doesn't make sense.  They will believe a story from 2000 years ago but if the exact same shit happened today they wouldn't.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 06:59:20 AM
. Oh and just so you know the times are so peaceful that my nephew has been trying to join the military for 2 years and has been turned down cause the infantry, armor division, or artillery is not hiring Idiots!
FIXED. Incomplete Sentence - your grammar sucks! maybe the Army has a basic literacy level and doesn't except red-neck illiterates


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 21, 2012, 07:05:11 AM
hitler still lives on a remote farm in argentina


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on June 21, 2012, 07:21:11 AM
Please, direct me to the proper internet videos made by college students so that I can join the Enlightened Club.

No videos, just history.  Take a deeper look into the financial crisis in the USA and how countries in Europe, not banks but countries like Spain and Greece are collapsed. 

The common denominator for power is money and force.  The USA has a lot of both


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tito24 on June 21, 2012, 08:16:36 AM
yes the rockefellars


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 08:53:05 AM
Please, direct me to the proper internet videos made by college students so that I can join the Enlightened Club.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQhEBCWMe44
Here's a good doco for starters "Manufacturing Consent", it will highlight why you are such an indoctrinated idiot who acts like a close minded fool when presented with alternate information.  It will be a good test of your brainwashed mind to see if you can tolerate the content!  I don't expect you to watch it though, as you want to remain in the Illusion of being "RIGHT" as opposed to KNOWING the TRUTH! - good luck with that!

"Let’s now look at the doctrines that have been crafted to impose the modern forms of political democracy. They are expressed quite accurately in an important manual of the public relations industry by one of its leading figures, Edward Bernays. He opens by observing that “the conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society”. To carry out this essential task, “the intelligent minorities must make use of propaganda continuously and systematically” because they alone “understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses” and can “pull the wires which control the public mind.” Therefore our “society has consented to permit free competition to be organized by leadership and propaganda” another case of “consent without consent”. Propaganda provides leadership with a mechanism “to mold the mind of the masses” so that “they will throw their newly gained strength in the desired direction.” The leadership can “regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments the bodies of its solders.” This process of “engineering consent” is “the very essence of the democratic process,” Bernays wrote shortly before he was honored for his contributions by the American Psychological Association in 1949."
Profit over People - Noam Chomsky


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Parker on June 21, 2012, 09:10:23 AM
13 pages and and no conclusive answer on whether God exists or not. I'm ashamed of Getbig for not having the definitive answer.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 21, 2012, 09:16:34 AM
jefferson airplane

AHAHAAH!!!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 21, 2012, 09:17:30 AM
I think you miss the point - all private property laws are theft, as they take what is given to humans by nature

So cars grow on trees and are given to us by nature? And a pizza magically appears on your plate courtesy of nature?

What a ridiculous philosophy...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: dr.chimps on June 21, 2012, 09:26:05 AM
13 pages and and no conclusive answer on whether God exists or not. I'm ashamed of Getbig for not having the definitive answer.
Maybe so. But there is one hell of a circle jerk going on with the intellectual wannabes. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 09:26:57 AM
So cars grow on trees and are given to us by nature? And a pizza magically appears on your plate courtesy of nature?

What a ridiculous philosophy...
No, Apples grow on Trees, Cars are made from the resources found in Nature - Nature provides the resources for EVERYTHING!  What is more ridiculous is that you think that things have come from another planet or some far off mystical place.  If they haven't come from nature, where in the hell do you propose they have come from.  I know your small brain might find this hard to conceive, but everything comes from nature - yes your car comes from the raw materials in nature, they are then manipulated my man and machines to become what they are, yes your pizza comes from Nature - I am truly in shock that somebody could be so disconnected from reality as to not make the connection from "Where things come from" like there is some portal to another universe where things magically appear from.  Everything comes from NATURE - I feel sorry for people who are so disconnected!  There is only one earth, and everything on it is from Earth! Pretty simple connection really, unless you are a FOOL!  Everything you possess, eat, own or consume originally started off in Nature!  The car that you drive, parts of it used to be buried in the Earth until mined by men and so on it goes, and your small brain might not see the other side of that, one day, your car will age, decay and become a part of the earth again!  Getbiggers! Geeeez!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: gracie bjj on June 21, 2012, 09:33:47 AM
no one knows for sure, my guess is that people wanna try to find comfort in believing that it aint over when its over.  i used to be into the bible alot but i got frustrated with it


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 21, 2012, 09:35:28 AM
Of course raw materials ultimately come from nature. But someone (or some group of people) took the raw materials and transformed them, adding tremendous value.

A handful of sand is useless to me. A fancy Intel processor isn't.

A handful of seeds are useless to me. Six pounds of vegetables aren't.

I you create something you own it.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 09:40:43 AM
Of course raw materials ultimately come from nature. But someone (or some group of people) took the raw materials and transformed them, adding tremendous value.

A handful of sand is useless to me. A fancy Intel processor isn't.

A handful of seeds are useless to me. Six pounds of vegetables aren't.

I you create something you own it.
So what has that got to do with a small minority of the world dispossessing the rest of the world of natures Resources - and just because you find value in those creations, they would be seen as a burden or unwanted by others - for me the greatest lesson I ever learnt was chasing money, making as much as I wanted, and then realising that, possessions weren't a blessing, they were a burden and I spent years giving SH!T away as it was nothing but a pain in the arse - I am still trying to give Sh!T away - Nothing is so freeing as living a simple life with few possessions and good simple healthy food - it is a cliche, but the simple things in life are often the best, and there free.

What your talking about is the manipulation of Nature - the creation of things - if people want to turn there share of apples into a pie, thats there business, I just want my apples as well, plus I prefer them RAW!  And ownership is just an illusion - it's like building a sandcastle near the shore - it wont be long before nature reclaims it - people like the concept of private property because it helps provide an illusion of security.  All the great minds know we don't have security, the sands of fortune shift beneath our feet any which way they want, best not to own too much when they do!

Silicon can be used for more than just CPU's, it can also be used in powerful lessons, like this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqVDewZ2kU
Traditionally sand mandalas are destroyed shortly after their completion. This is done as a metaphor of the impermanence of life.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 21, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
So what has that got to do with a small minority of the world dispossessing the rest of the world of natures Resources - and just because you find value in those creations, they would be seen as a burden or unwanted by others - for me the greatest lesson I ever learnt was chasing money, making as much as I wanted, and then realising that, possessions weren't a blessing, they were a burden and I spent years giving SH!T away as it was nothing but a pain in the arse - I am still trying to give Sh!T away - Nothing is so freeing as living a simple life with few possessions and good simple healthy food - it is a cliche, but the simple things in life are often the best, and there free

Others can see these creations as a burden they do not want; what they can't see is my property as theirs. I'm not forcing you or anyone to buy a car. All I'm saying is: "this is my car, not your car."

Now, to address your other point (which has substantially drifted): if you want to give away your possessions and live a "simple life", well... good for you! I won't stop you. But your desire to live this simple life doesn't mean that I have to be forced to live that life as well, or that it entitles you to use of my possessions.

Also I can't help but notice the irony, that even you, who say that to claim one owns something is equivalent to theft, still claim to have a few possessions - or, to put it differently, things that you own, in your simple life. I'll skip calling you a thief this time :)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 21, 2012, 09:56:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQhEBCWMe44
Here's a good doco for starters "Manufacturing Consent", it will highlight why you are such an indoctrinated idiot who acts like a close minded fool when presented with alternate information.  It will be a good test of your brainwashed mind to see if you can tolerate the content!  I don't expect you to watch it though, as you want to remain in the Illusion of being "RIGHT" as opposed to KNOWING the TRUTH! - good luck with that!

"Let’s now look at the doctrines that have been crafted to impose the modern forms of political democracy. They are expressed quite accurately in an important manual of the public relations industry by one of its leading figures, Edward Bernays. He opens by observing that “the conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society”. To carry out this essential task, “the intelligent minorities must make use of propaganda continuously and systematically” because they alone “understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses” and can “pull the wires which control the public mind.” Therefore our “society has consented to permit free competition to be organized by leadership and propaganda” another case of “consent without consent”. Propaganda provides leadership with a mechanism “to mold the mind of the masses” so that “they will throw their newly gained strength in the desired direction.” The leadership can “regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments the bodies of its solders.” This process of “engineering consent” is “the very essence of the democratic process,” Bernays wrote shortly before he was honored for his contributions by the American Psychological Association in 1949."
Profit over People - Noam Chomsky

I've read every single one of Chomsky's books, excluding the lectures in print form and books that only contain interviews.

1. Quoting the assertions of a single man in the public relations industry does not constitute evidence for the theory of mass control being presented. The vision of the man who successfully marketed cigarettes and was instrumental in popularizing them, while interesting, bears little to no relation to the actuality of how elites (a vague term as is) operate. Chomsky gladly (and rightly) criticizes this standard of evidence when it is deployed to prop up views contrary to his own; further, the standards of reasoning he adheres to in philosophy (e.g., his critique of behaviorism) and linguistics (what he is famous for in the first place) are exceptional. This makes his use of such shoddy reasoning in politics all the more fascinating and it is is a marvel he does not see the log in his own eye in this regard. It is genuinely amazing that the human mind can be compartmentalized in this fashion.

2. I'm sure that you think I believe America is amazing and perfect, and that I automatically attack any contrary notions. I'm sure of this because you consistently misattribute views to anybody who disagrees with you, including assuming Onetimehard is an American (he isn't), assuming I am "brainwashed" (how could you possibly know this?), and so forth. This shows just superficial your thinking is. The great irony here is that I have already read all of the works under consideration and critically evaluated them, while you have clearly spent little to no time with the arguments (such as they are) in favor of American hegemony. This means that you are the sheep here, because you mindlessly mimic Chomsky like a devoted acolyte and fail to consider relevant alternatives. Shame on you for attacking others for doing exactly what you are doing.

3. In contrast to the "mythical me" that you are attacking, I recognize that business is extremely influential in American society, that in some instances the influence would be better curtailed, that American foreign policy has killed hundreds of thousands, that such policy is not primarily (or even secondarily, oftentimes) geared towards promoting human rights and democracy, and so forth. All of this is readily understood from a pair of courses: economics and international relations. That you think all of this is somehow kept a secret is very revealing. Yes, some people are stupid and accept everything the government and business interests shove down their throat. The existence of these people does not entail some massive conspiracy, however.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 09:59:23 AM
Others can see these creations as a burden they do not want; what they can't see is my property as theirs. I'm not forcing you or anyone to buy a car. All I'm saying is: "this is my car, not your car."

Now, to address your other point (which has substantially drifted): if you want to give away your possessions and live a "simple life", well... good for you! I won't stop you. But your desire to live this simple life doesn't mean that I have to be forced to live that life as well, or that it entitles you to use of my possessions.

Also I can't help but notice the irony, that even you, who say that to claim one owns something is equivalent to theft, still claim to have a few possessions - or, to put it differently, things that you own, in your simple life. I'll skip calling you a thief this time :)
Under the current paradigm, of course I "OWN" things, but I do not consider them MINE! I am not suggesting that there be a free for All LOOTING party, I am saying there are other paradigms out there which don't use POSSESSION but rather a more community minded system, like a Resource based economy, or like a Library for a more simpler definition!  Obviously the system isn't going to change, and I would not force my beliefs on anyone, like I said, I have had access to a lot and found it VOID of meaning, essentially EMPTY, I actually feel sorry for those wrapped up in the chasing and consumption of this Emptiness, why would I want to take someone else's BURDEN!  The possessions I own have become pretty much necessities to live a modern life, they are used only for the purpose of living a simple life and contributing to society!  My only great luxury, is the Internet! A classic example of a SHARED RESOURCE! but some would even say this has become a necessary must have of the 21st century, it definitely makes my life easier!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 10:12:51 AM
I've read every single one of Chomsky's books, excluding the lectures in print form and books that only contain interviews.

1. Quoting the assertions of a single man in the public relations industry does not constitute evidence for the theory of mass control being presented. The vision of the man who successfully marketed cigarettes and was instrumental in popularizing them, while interesting, bears little to no relation to the actuality of how elites (a vague term as is) operate. Chomsky gladly (and rightly) criticizes this standard of evidence when it is deployed to prop up views contrary to his own; further, the standards of reasoning he adheres to in philosophy (e.g., his critique of behaviorism) and linguistics (what he is famous for in the first place) are exceptional. This makes his use of such shoddy reasoning in politics all the more fascinating and it is is a marvel he does not see the log in his own eye in this regard. It is genuinely amazing that the human mind can be compartmentalized in this fashion.

2. I'm sure that you think I believe America is amazing and perfect, and that I automatically attack any contrary notions. I'm sure of this because you consistently misattribute views to anybody who disagrees with you, including assuming Onetimehard is an American (he isn't), assuming I am "brainwashed" (how could you possibly know this?), and so forth. This shows just superficial your thinking is. The great irony here is that I have already read all of the works under consideration and critically evaluated them, while you have clearly spent little to no time with the arguments (such as they are) in favor of American hegemony. This means that you are the sheep here, because you mindlessly mimic Chomsky like a devoted acolyte and fail to consider relevant alternatives. Shame on you for attacking others for doing exactly what you are doing.

3. In contrast to the "mythical me" that you are attacking, I recognize that business is extremely influential in American society, that in some instances the influence would be better curtailed, that American foreign policy has killed hundreds of thousands, that such policy is not primarily (or even secondarily, oftentimes) geared towards promoting human rights and democracy, and so forth. All of this is readily understood from a pair of courses: economics and international relations. That you think all of this is somehow kept a secret is very revealing. Yes, some people are stupid and accept everything the government and business interests shove down their throat. The existence of these people does not entail some massive conspiracy, however.
I have never mentioned SECRET or Conspiracy, It is you who constantly make this allegation as if it is coming from me,   It's frustrating that people call ideas outside of their realm of understanding a CONSPIRACY!  You will never hear me describe the CORRUPT manipulation of the Financial Markets a Conspiracy, or that America lies to it's people so it can profit from WAR a conspiracy, or that a handful of ELITE and powerful corporations and families effectively rule the world a Conspiracy.  You will hear Repeaters like yourself calling it a CONSPIRACY over and over and over again, but you will never hear me say that, a true conspiracy would never be detected, thats what a conspiracy is.  This stuff is out in the Open and can easily be discovered through Curiosity and a critical analysis of History from many angles.

The fact you claim to have read all of Chomsky work is Bullsh!t - the mind control theory isn't just validated by one public relations man - Chomsky uses many sources - like I said, I didn't expect you to watch anything - I am more than happy for you to believe the nonsense you do, just don't expect others to believe it!  Unfortunately Chomsky is advocating for peace, the opposite to peace is war! there are no other alternatives, either you are at war, or you are not!  Some times in life things are just Black & White - do you have an alternative!  Some times a PEACE Advocate is just a PEACE Advocate!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 10:21:47 AM
lmao. Thanks man.

P.S. The proper term is "pseudointellectual." HTH
It's called "Being a WANKER!"


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 21, 2012, 10:39:10 AM
Oh, ok. Do you think we should keep using the language of morals or is it too misleading?

When I ask how you would describe the Holocaust , I mean the descripion you would personally come up with to explain the moral status of the event. Would you say, 'It was wrong but I only say this because I've been conditioned as such,' or would you say 'it was neither right nor wrong, because there is no such thing'? It might not look like it first glance, but there is a huge difference between these views.

I don't believe anyone can ever claim anything as being 'moral' or not. Who can say what is or is not? So no, I don't believe in using 'the language of morals'.

With regards to your question, in the big scheme of things (the Universe) I don't believe there exists a right or wrong.
Bacteria wipe-out other bacteria so that their type is stronger. They are living beings, so what's the difference?
Human beings have self-awareness and intelligence, so I think its more for practical purposes that such actions should be prevented.
We're smart enough not to want such actions on ourselves so therefore should not tolerate it happening to others either.

I think the world would be a better place if people were more concerned about how they themselves would like to be treated instead of whether something has been determined as 'right' or 'wrong' by others. Or even worse, the so-called 'morality' of their actions.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 21, 2012, 10:39:34 AM
I have never mentioned SECRET or Conspiracy, It is you who constantly make this allegation as if it is coming from me,   It's frustrating that people call ideas outside of their realm of understanding a CONSPIRACY!  You will never hear me describe the CORRUPT manipulation of the Financial Markets a Conspiracy, or that America lies to it's people so it can profit from WAR a conspiracy, or that a handful of ELITE and powerful corporations and families effectively rule the world a Conspiracy.  You will hear Repeaters like yourself calling it a CONSPIRACY over and over and over again, but you will never hear me say that, a true conspiracy would never be detected, thats what a conspiracy is.  This stuff is out in the Open and can easily be discovered through Curiosity and a critical analysis of History from many angles.

The fact you claim to have read all of Chomsky work is Bullsh!t - the mind control theory isn't just validated by one public relations man - Chomsky uses many sources - like I said, I didn't expect you to watch anything - I am more than happy for you to believe the nonsense you do, just don't expect others to believe it!  Unfortunately Chomsky is advocating for peace, the opposite to peace is war! there are no other alternatives, either you are at war, or you are not!  Some times in life things are just Black & White - do you have an alternative!  Some times a PEACE Advocate is just a PEACE Advocate!

That's fine, we can dispense with the "conspiracy" terminology if you like. The word can be used to write off alternative opinion without actually evaluating it. I tend to use it as a placeholder for the longer expression, "theory with little evidence that persons of a certain psychological disposition flock toward and treat as sacrosanct without genuinely critically assessing it." This means that a majority of the theories you advocate fit the bill, but again, we avoid the "trigger word" that apparently makes you upset.

Let's take a specific theory so that we can get more concrete here: you mention above that corrupt manipulation of financial markets takes place. Of course, some degree of corruption is evident in any such system, but I don't think that is what you are referring to. Just what are you referring to (a specific instance, or a pattern of behavior) and what is the evidence that this theory is right?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 21, 2012, 10:54:16 AM
What if "C-A-T" really spelled "dog"?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 01:26:07 PM
FIXED. Incomplete Sentence - your grammar sucks! maybe the Army has a basic literacy level and doesn't except red-neck illiterates
Are you fucken stupid or something, do you know how to read, I said my nephew not me.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 21, 2012, 02:25:13 PM
Am I too late for the circle jerk? I can be the conductor.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 21, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
I don't believe anyone can ever claim anything as being 'moral' or not. Who can say what is or is not? So no, I don't believe in using 'the language of morals'.

Really? Let's examine what this other guy (we'll call him Larry) wrote in the same post as yours:


With regards to your question, in the big scheme of things (the Universe) I don't believe there exists a right or wrong.
Bacteria wipe-out other bacteria so that their type is stronger. They are living beings, so what's the difference?
Human beings have self-awareness and intelligence, so I think its more for practical purposes that such actions should be prevented.
We're smart enough not to want such actions on ourselves so therefore should not tolerate it happening to others either.

Larry seems to disagree with you... As a matter of fact, that last sentence of his is a moral principle. Smart guy, that Larry.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 02:56:57 PM
Really? Let's examine what this other guy (we'll call him Larry) wrote in the same post as yours:


Larry seems to disagree with you... As a matter of fact, that last sentence of his is a moral principle. Smart guy, that Larry.


Finally something we both agree on  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 21, 2012, 04:59:09 PM
I don't believe anyone can ever claim anything as being 'moral' or not. Who can say what is or is not? So no, I don't believe in using 'the language of morals'.

With regards to your question, in the big scheme of things (the Universe) I don't believe there exists a right or wrong.
Bacteria wipe-out other bacteria so that their type is stronger. They are living beings, so what's the difference?
Human beings have self-awareness and intelligence, so I think its more for practical purposes that such actions should be prevented.
We're smart enough not to want such actions on ourselves so therefore should not tolerate it happening to others either.

I think the world would be a better place if people were more concerned about how they themselves would like to be treated instead of whether something has been determined as 'right' or 'wrong' by others. Or even worse, the so-called 'morality' of their actions.


Key to the concepts of morality are their normativity, or ability to tell us what we ought to do, e.g., "wrongness" is an inherent marker for what not to do (pending extreme circumstances). I'm not sure how you can retain the normativity while abolishing the moral concepts (it's possible but I don't want to give the game up); if you can never tell Al Qaeda operatives (or better yet, potential recruits) that what the organization does is "wrong," since there is no such property, how can you ever tell them not to engage in such acts (if their desires are to do so, that is; that means pure "you'll get blown up" utilily arguments won't convince them). How can you even pass judgment?

The principle Larry espoused in the latter part of your post doesn't cut muster; there just is no necessary connection between wanting to be treated a certain way and thus treating others that way. That's why "free riders" are a problem: they benefit from others acting according to Larry's principle without thereby reciprocating in kind. Your not wanting to get killed does not at all entail your not killing, say, Larry for sneaking onto your computer and editing your posts. It especially does not entail your "not tolerating" (the explicit language of Larry's post) somebody else punishing Larry for some reason or other. How could you ever counter the free riders without something to the effect of saying what they are doing is wrong?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 21, 2012, 06:06:22 PM
Are you fucken stupid or something, do you know how to read, I said my nephew not me.
I was talking about your nephew!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 21, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
I was talking about your nephew!
So now you are disrespecting someones family on here, scum.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SomeKindofMonster on June 21, 2012, 10:02:02 PM
Yes, I believe in God.
I'm not outspoken about it but if someone wants
to discuss it I don't mind as long as it's civil.
I 1st believed by faith at 10 but also felt a strong
presence of Love that was beyond my self.

As far as proof, you would need to discount millions
of seemingly supernatural occurrences by millions of people
over the centuries.

I had a friend who was the real deal when it came to living his faith.
He had at least 2 bulging hernias that had been diagnosed by his
doctor and the operation would be very expensive. BTW - I felt
them myself personally except for one that was around his groin area.
He and his wife had an incredible encounter with God by his own words.
Alone, in his house, just them 2, not at Church. He had the hernia bulges for
months and the day after this encounter he and his wife had, they were completely
gone in one night. He wasn't praying for them to be gone, it just happened because of this
experience and the doctor was baffled.

Here's a long incredible story if you want to take the time to read it.
It's by Arthur Blessitt who has carried a cross around the world. He just wears old blue jeans
and T-shirts and is not a TV preacher although he's spoken many times on TV.
This story could be made up, embellished ect, but Arthur has had a repretation as the real deal.
A true man of God. You can decide for yourself if you believe it or not.
BTW - He has all the books he's written for free on his web site.

This is part of a story of when he was carrying his cross in a foreign country.

The civil war in Nicaragua was raging at the time, the Sandinistas' popular guerilla movement against the Somoza government dictatorship. It was a horrible and bloody war. Terror was everywhere.

"I never run,"' I said. "We will sleep where we stop with the cross. I have learned you never run. You must face fear and overcome it, or it will haunt you."

The old man who had spoken made the sign of the cross as we parked the truck and trailer under a tree. It is very uncommon for us to park under a tree, because birds often park in them.

We opened some cold canned food, ate and soon we were in bed. Mike was in the front bed, and I was at the back on the bottom, and Don at the back on the top bunk. I was too exhausted to think. I went sound asleep just after I lay down. The night was hot and I was wet with sweat. A loud banging on the side of the trailer and the loud voice of a man yelling, “Narcotica policia” woke me. I shook my head, sitting up in bed, and pulled back the window curtain to look out. A gun was in my face.

"Narcotica policia!"

I turned on the light, slipped into my pants and opened the door. There were guns pointed at me. One short, middle aged man put a pistol directly in my face, pushing me back and stepping in.

All were in khakis or blue jeans and plain shirts. Several had mustaches and most were in their late teens or early twenties. Several came into the trailer and looked around as if they were going to buy it. Don did not say a word, even though he spoke Spanish. Mike was sitting up in bed wondering what was going on. He could not find his glasses.

"What's happening Arthur, what's going on with all these guys?" he asked sleepily.

"Pray, Mike. Pray."

The short man waved his pistol toward the door. They took me by the shoulder and arm and as I started out I reached up and grabbed the truck keys. This was simply on an impulse, for no particular reason except maybe I thought they might want the truck and they could have it.

There wasn't a doubt these were not narcotics police. The people would later say they were government troops, the government would say there were guerillas. Never mind who, the problem was terror on the roads to rob, to kill and to terrorize the land.

I began to witness in the little Spanish I knew. "Dios te ama. (God loves you) Jesus will forgive you and come to live in your heart."

No one seemed to hear my words. I could see seven men with rifles and pistols, plus two more lying on the back of the truck with machine guns protecting the others. It was a clear night and beautiful. Maybe they want to rob us, I thought, but no. They took me beside the truck and stood me there with orders not to move. They lined up about 15 feet away, raised their guns and pointed them toward me. Suddenly I realized they were going to shoot me. I was standing before a firing squad.

The cross was on top of the truck and difficult to get to. Now, this is what flashed through my mind. If I'm going to die I don't want to die without a Bible. The guns were all aimed at me as I suddenly turned to the right, took about two quick steps and reached to put the key in the truck keyhole. I did it on the first try. I was thinking, even if they shoot me I think I can get the door open before I die and grab a box of Bibles. The men were screaming, "No, no!"

I swung the door open, raised the front seat and grabbed a box of Bibles. The gunmen had no way to know what I was getting or doing. Only God knows why they didn't shoot, but my thought was, if I'm going to die, what does it matter whether I get it from the front or from the back?

I set the box of Bibles on the ground and tried to get it open. It was bound with strong corded tape which made it almost impossible to get open. I could see the feet of the men around me and feel their pull on my shoulder trying to get me up. After getting an opening in the box of American Society Bibles, I thought I'd give them all a Bible too, filling my arms as I stood up. No one was there!

What's happening, I wondered. The glory of God was present, and then I saw the unbelievable. All the gunmen were on the ground, fiat on their backs. The short man who seemed to be the commander was lying inside the trailer with only his feet and legs sticking out. As I walked toward them they began to slowly get up in a daze. The man at the door now sat collecting himself.

I said in Spanish, "Do you want a Bible?"

"We won't bother you," he said.

I grabbed a water bottle and offered them water. All of them jumped up and raced away into the night with no truck lights turned on. I stood in silence. What had happened? It was all so fast!
As I walked into the trailer Don said, "We thought you were dead."

"They were going to kill me, shoot me," I said. "But I opened the truck and got some Bibles. When I looked up the men were on the ground."

"Arthur, we could hear the blows of meat against meat. We thought they were killing you. Then we heard them yell '0-o-o-oh' and they came falling back. One of the men fell into the doorway."

We sat up talking and talking. At dawn as I prepared to leave, carrying the cross down the highway, the people of the houses were there. They were saying, "We saw a bright light. God was here and the gunmen fell to the ground."





  


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 22, 2012, 12:26:35 AM
So now you are disrespecting someones family on here, scum.
It's Getbig - you seem surprised - plus it was your mum who told me about your nephews literacy problem after I finished banging her hard in the arse, just the way she likes it!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 22, 2012, 01:48:32 AM
Really? Let's examine what this other guy (we'll call him Larry) wrote in the same post as yours:


Larry seems to disagree with you... As a matter of fact, that last sentence of his is a moral principle. Smart guy, that Larry.


I don't see it as a question of 'morals' but rather of practicality. Some lines have to be drawn to have basic order, otherwise human beings would behave like wild animals, but these lines should be drawn at the lowest possible levels.
It's not about so-called 'morality'.

Anyway, who's to say what is or is not 'moral principles'? The term is just an artificial construct, just like everything else in life.

The point I was making earlier is that how I think things might be and how I want them to be are necessarily the same thing.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 22, 2012, 02:13:30 AM
Key to the concepts of morality are their normativity, or ability to tell us what we ought to do, e.g., "wrongness" is an inherent marker for what not to do (pending extreme circumstances). I'm not sure how you can retain the normativity while abolishing the moral concepts (it's possible but I don't want to give the game up); if you can never tell Al Qaeda operatives (or better yet, potential recruits) that what the organization does is "wrong," since there is no such property, how can you ever tell them not to engage in such acts (if their desires are to do so, that is; that means pure "you'll get blown up" utilily arguments won't convince them). How can you even pass judgment?

The principle Larry espoused in the latter part of your post doesn't cut muster; there just is no necessary connection between wanting to be treated a certain way and thus treating others that way. That's why "free riders" are a problem: they benefit from others acting according to Larry's principle without thereby reciprocating in kind. Your not wanting to get killed does not at all entail your not killing, say, Larry for sneaking onto your computer and editing your posts. It especially does not entail your "not tolerating" (the explicit language of Larry's post) somebody else punishing Larry for some reason or other. How could you ever counter the free riders without something to the effect of saying what they are doing is wrong?



It's not a question of 'normativity' but rather practicality.
Even though right or wrong doesn't exist, for purposes of basic order we do unfortunately have to create rules or laws. But it should not have anything to do with 'morality' or whether it is right or wrong.

For practical purposes and for the absolute minimum of laws to exist, the line has to be drawn at the lowest possible level to allow people to have maximum freedom and freedom of association, expression etc.

As I said earlier, what I think the bigger picture of the universe might be and what I think works or how I'd like things to personally be are not necessarily the same thing.




Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on June 22, 2012, 02:30:40 AM
*double post*


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 22, 2012, 02:37:13 AM
So what has that got to do with a small minority of the world dispossessing the rest of the world of natures Resources - and just because you find value in those creations, they would be seen as a burden or unwanted by others - for me the greatest lesson I ever learnt was chasing money, making as much as I wanted, and then realising that, possessions weren't a blessing, they were a burden and I spent years giving SH!T away as it was nothing but a pain in the arse - I am still trying to give Sh!T away - Nothing is so freeing as living a simple life with few possessions and good simple healthy food - it is a cliche, but the simple things in life are often the best, and there free.

What your talking about is the manipulation of Nature - the creation of things - if people want to turn there share of apples into a pie, thats there business, I just want my apples as well, plus I prefer them RAW!  And ownership is just an illusion - it's like building a sandcastle near the shore - it wont be long before nature reclaims it - people like the concept of private property because it helps provide an illusion of security.  All the great minds know we don't have security, the sands of fortune shift beneath our feet any which way they want, best not to own too much when they do!

Silicon can be used for more than just CPU's, it can also be used in powerful lessons, like this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqVDewZ2kU
Traditionally sand mandalas are destroyed shortly after their completion. This is done as a metaphor of the impermanence of life.
How about you give away your computer?



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 22, 2012, 04:13:44 AM
It's Getbig - you seem surprised - plus it was your mum who told me about your nephews literacy problem after I finished banging her hard in the arse, just the way she likes it!
Ya, really concerned about the morality of the world, you truely are a man of principle. lame and low class talk right there. You sound like a ghetto bitch.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 22, 2012, 04:48:29 AM
Ya, really concerned about the morality of the world, you truely are a man of principle. lame and low class talk right there. You sound like a ghetto bitch.
That's why your Mum Loves me, it's the ghetto in me, oh and plus the fact I bang her arse just the way she likes it - oh, and I reserve my compassion for people who deserve it - not offensive GETBIG aRSEHOLES who are clearly oxygen thieves! Hope this helps!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 22, 2012, 05:52:30 AM
Yes, I believe in God.
I'm not outspoken about it but if someone wants
to discuss it I don't mind as long as it's civil.
I 1st believed by faith at 10 but also felt a strong
presence of Love that was beyond my self.

As far as proof, you would need to discount millions
of seemingly supernatural occurrences by millions of people
over the centuries.

I had a friend who was the real deal when it came to living his faith.
He had at least 2 bulging hernias that had been diagnosed by his
doctor and the operation would be very expensive. BTW - I felt
them myself personally except for one that was around his groin area.
He and his wife had an incredible encounter with God by his own words.
Alone, in his house, just them 2, not at Church. He had the hernia bulges for
months and the day after this encounter he and his wife had, they were completely
gone in one night. He wasn't praying for them to be gone, it just happened because of this
experience and the doctor was baffled.

Here's a long incredible story if you want to take the time to read it.
It's by Arthur Blessitt who has carried a cross around the world. He just wears old blue jeans
and T-shirts and is not a TV preacher although he's spoken many times on TV.
This story could be made up, embellished ect, but Arthur has had a repretation as the real deal.
A true man of God. You can decide for yourself if you believe it or not.
BTW - He has all the books he's written for free on his web site.

This is part of a story of when he was carrying his cross in a foreign country.

The civil war in Nicaragua was raging at the time, the Sandinistas' popular guerilla movement against the Somoza government dictatorship. It was a horrible and bloody war. Terror was everywhere.

"I never run,"' I said. "We will sleep where we stop with the cross. I have learned you never run. You must face fear and overcome it, or it will haunt you."

The old man who had spoken made the sign of the cross as we parked the truck and trailer under a tree. It is very uncommon for us to park under a tree, because birds often park in them.

We opened some cold canned food, ate and soon we were in bed. Mike was in the front bed, and I was at the back on the bottom, and Don at the back on the top bunk. I was too exhausted to think. I went sound asleep just after I lay down. The night was hot and I was wet with sweat. A loud banging on the side of the trailer and the loud voice of a man yelling, “Narcotica policia” woke me. I shook my head, sitting up in bed, and pulled back the window curtain to look out. A gun was in my face.

"Narcotica policia!"

I turned on the light, slipped into my pants and opened the door. There were guns pointed at me. One short, middle aged man put a pistol directly in my face, pushing me back and stepping in.

All were in khakis or blue jeans and plain shirts. Several had mustaches and most were in their late teens or early twenties. Several came into the trailer and looked around as if they were going to buy it. Don did not say a word, even though he spoke Spanish. Mike was sitting up in bed wondering what was going on. He could not find his glasses.

"What's happening Arthur, what's going on with all these guys?" he asked sleepily.

"Pray, Mike. Pray."

The short man waved his pistol toward the door. They took me by the shoulder and arm and as I started out I reached up and grabbed the truck keys. This was simply on an impulse, for no particular reason except maybe I thought they might want the truck and they could have it.

There wasn't a doubt these were not narcotics police. The people would later say they were government troops, the government would say there were guerillas. Never mind who, the problem was terror on the roads to rob, to kill and to terrorize the land.

I began to witness in the little Spanish I knew. "Dios te ama. (God loves you) Jesus will forgive you and come to live in your heart."

No one seemed to hear my words. I could see seven men with rifles and pistols, plus two more lying on the back of the truck with machine guns protecting the others. It was a clear night and beautiful. Maybe they want to rob us, I thought, but no. They took me beside the truck and stood me there with orders not to move. They lined up about 15 feet away, raised their guns and pointed them toward me. Suddenly I realized they were going to shoot me. I was standing before a firing squad.

The cross was on top of the truck and difficult to get to. Now, this is what flashed through my mind. If I'm going to die I don't want to die without a Bible. The guns were all aimed at me as I suddenly turned to the right, took about two quick steps and reached to put the key in the truck keyhole. I did it on the first try. I was thinking, even if they shoot me I think I can get the door open before I die and grab a box of Bibles. The men were screaming, "No, no!"

I swung the door open, raised the front seat and grabbed a box of Bibles. The gunmen had no way to know what I was getting or doing. Only God knows why they didn't shoot, but my thought was, if I'm going to die, what does it matter whether I get it from the front or from the back?

I set the box of Bibles on the ground and tried to get it open. It was bound with strong corded tape which made it almost impossible to get open. I could see the feet of the men around me and feel their pull on my shoulder trying to get me up. After getting an opening in the box of American Society Bibles, I thought I'd give them all a Bible too, filling my arms as I stood up. No one was there!

What's happening, I wondered. The glory of God was present, and then I saw the unbelievable. All the gunmen were on the ground, fiat on their backs. The short man who seemed to be the commander was lying inside the trailer with only his feet and legs sticking out. As I walked toward them they began to slowly get up in a daze. The man at the door now sat collecting himself.

I said in Spanish, "Do you want a Bible?"

"We won't bother you," he said.

I grabbed a water bottle and offered them water. All of them jumped up and raced away into the night with no truck lights turned on. I stood in silence. What had happened? It was all so fast!
As I walked into the trailer Don said, "We thought you were dead."

"They were going to kill me, shoot me," I said. "But I opened the truck and got some Bibles. When I looked up the men were on the ground."

"Arthur, we could hear the blows of meat against meat. We thought they were killing you. Then we heard them yell '0-o-o-oh' and they came falling back. One of the men fell into the doorway."

We sat up talking and talking. At dawn as I prepared to leave, carrying the cross down the highway, the people of the houses were there. They were saying, "We saw a bright light. God was here and the gunmen fell to the ground."





  

Millions of people 'witness' miracle-like occurrences (including walking on water) on the part of their favorite gurus every single day in India. Take these same guru-witnessing experiences that no one with a brain takes seriously today, export them two thousand years ago into the pre-scientific, superstitious Middle East crawling with Apocalyptic preachers, and have them written about decades after the fact, and suddenly they constitute evidence for your preferred religion. Hmm, does anybody else see a problem with this?

P.S. I think it is better if you stick to particular points of discussion rather than overlong stories almost nobody is going to read.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 07:08:07 AM
Yes, I believe in God.
I'm not outspoken about it but if someone wants
to discuss it I don't mind as long as it's civil.
I 1st believed by faith at 10 but also felt a strong
presence of Love that was beyond my self.

As far as proof, you would need to discount millions
of seemingly supernatural occurrences by millions of people
over the centuries.

I had a friend who was the real deal when it came to living his faith.
He had at least 2 bulging hernias that had been diagnosed by his
doctor and the operation would be very expensive. BTW - I felt
them myself personally except for one that was around his groin area.
He and his wife had an incredible encounter with God by his own words.
Alone, in his house, just them 2, not at Church. He had the hernia bulges for
months and the day after this encounter he and his wife had, they were completely
gone in one night. He wasn't praying for them to be gone, it just happened because of this
experience and the doctor was baffled.

Here's a long incredible story if you want to take the time to read it.
It's by Arthur Blessitt who has carried a cross around the world. He just wears old blue jeans
and T-shirts and is not a TV preacher although he's spoken many times on TV.
This story could be made up, embellished ect, but Arthur has had a repretation as the real deal.
A true man of God. You can decide for yourself if you believe it or not.
BTW - He has all the books he's written for free on his web site.

This is part of a story of when he was carrying his cross in a foreign country.

The civil war in Nicaragua was raging at the time, the Sandinistas' popular guerilla movement against the Somoza government dictatorship. It was a horrible and bloody war. Terror was everywhere.

"I never run,"' I said. "We will sleep where we stop with the cross. I have learned you never run. You must face fear and overcome it, or it will haunt you."

The old man who had spoken made the sign of the cross as we parked the truck and trailer under a tree. It is very uncommon for us to park under a tree, because birds often park in them.

We opened some cold canned food, ate and soon we were in bed. Mike was in the front bed, and I was at the back on the bottom, and Don at the back on the top bunk. I was too exhausted to think. I went sound asleep just after I lay down. The night was hot and I was wet with sweat. A loud banging on the side of the trailer and the loud voice of a man yelling, “Narcotica policia” woke me. I shook my head, sitting up in bed, and pulled back the window curtain to look out. A gun was in my face.

"Narcotica policia!"

I turned on the light, slipped into my pants and opened the door. There were guns pointed at me. One short, middle aged man put a pistol directly in my face, pushing me back and stepping in.

All were in khakis or blue jeans and plain shirts. Several had mustaches and most were in their late teens or early twenties. Several came into the trailer and looked around as if they were going to buy it. Don did not say a word, even though he spoke Spanish. Mike was sitting up in bed wondering what was going on. He could not find his glasses.

"What's happening Arthur, what's going on with all these guys?" he asked sleepily.

"Pray, Mike. Pray."

The short man waved his pistol toward the door. They took me by the shoulder and arm and as I started out I reached up and grabbed the truck keys. This was simply on an impulse, for no particular reason except maybe I thought they might want the truck and they could have it.

There wasn't a doubt these were not narcotics police. The people would later say they were government troops, the government would say there were guerillas. Never mind who, the problem was terror on the roads to rob, to kill and to terrorize the land.

I began to witness in the little Spanish I knew. "Dios te ama. (God loves you) Jesus will forgive you and come to live in your heart."

No one seemed to hear my words. I could see seven men with rifles and pistols, plus two more lying on the back of the truck with machine guns protecting the others. It was a clear night and beautiful. Maybe they want to rob us, I thought, but no. They took me beside the truck and stood me there with orders not to move. They lined up about 15 feet away, raised their guns and pointed them toward me. Suddenly I realized they were going to shoot me. I was standing before a firing squad.

The cross was on top of the truck and difficult to get to. Now, this is what flashed through my mind. If I'm going to die I don't want to die without a Bible. The guns were all aimed at me as I suddenly turned to the right, took about two quick steps and reached to put the key in the truck keyhole. I did it on the first try. I was thinking, even if they shoot me I think I can get the door open before I die and grab a box of Bibles. The men were screaming, "No, no!"

I swung the door open, raised the front seat and grabbed a box of Bibles. The gunmen had no way to know what I was getting or doing. Only God knows why they didn't shoot, but my thought was, if I'm going to die, what does it matter whether I get it from the front or from the back?

I set the box of Bibles on the ground and tried to get it open. It was bound with strong corded tape which made it almost impossible to get open. I could see the feet of the men around me and feel their pull on my shoulder trying to get me up. After getting an opening in the box of American Society Bibles, I thought I'd give them all a Bible too, filling my arms as I stood up. No one was there!

What's happening, I wondered. The glory of God was present, and then I saw the unbelievable. All the gunmen were on the ground, fiat on their backs. The short man who seemed to be the commander was lying inside the trailer with only his feet and legs sticking out. As I walked toward them they began to slowly get up in a daze. The man at the door now sat collecting himself.

I said in Spanish, "Do you want a Bible?"

"We won't bother you," he said.

I grabbed a water bottle and offered them water. All of them jumped up and raced away into the night with no truck lights turned on. I stood in silence. What had happened? It was all so fast!
As I walked into the trailer Don said, "We thought you were dead."

"They were going to kill me, shoot me," I said. "But I opened the truck and got some Bibles. When I looked up the men were on the ground."

"Arthur, we could hear the blows of meat against meat. We thought they were killing you. Then we heard them yell '0-o-o-oh' and they came falling back. One of the men fell into the doorway."

We sat up talking and talking. At dawn as I prepared to leave, carrying the cross down the highway, the people of the houses were there. They were saying, "We saw a bright light. God was here and the gunmen fell to the ground."





  

FYI ~ the atheists on Getbig care nothing for any personal, religious experience you've had or your family/friends have had.  If it doesn't come in a test tube or is peer-reviewed in a medical journal and is able to be replicated it means nothing to them.  They'll quote every other world religion and all the miracles they also claim to experience in order to keep you quiet.  The Christian God is just one of many in a series of theistic nonsense for them.  Why are the "miracles of Christ" that can't be proven different from the miralces in India or of Allah?  I've shared my own experiences and simply receive such replies as "prove it" (despite the fact I am the proof) or "the fluctuations in brain waves you have during your religious experiences can be replicated in the lab with drugs....there's nothing unique about them."  

Me, I read what you posted and thought it was cool!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 22, 2012, 07:16:25 AM
FYI ~ the atheists on Getbig care nothing for any personal, religious experience you've had or your family/friends have had.  If it doesn't come in a test tube or is peer-reviewed in a medical journal and is able to be replicated it means nothing to them.  They'll quote every other world religion and all the miracles they also claim to experience in order to keep you quiet.  The Christian God is just one of many in a series of theistic nonsense for them.  Why are the "miracles of Christ" that can't be proven different from the miralces in India or of Allah?  I've shared my own experiences and simply receive such replies as "prove it" (despite the fact I am the proof) or "the fluctuations in brain waves you have during your religious experiences can be replicated in the lab with drugs....there's nothing unique about them."  

Me, I read what you posted and thought it was cool!

Heaven forbid (no pun intended) that we ask for proof. If we lived the way you lived (just accept everything that everyone says) we may as well just disregard all things related to science. I mean, who cares about looking for evidence when it comes to engineering, medicine, chemistry, etc  ::) Lets just accept whatever someone says because it sounds nice and comfy  ::)

And "you" being the proof is nowhere considered proof of a diety. Anecdoatal evidence is the least relaible evidence.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 22, 2012, 07:33:19 AM
Heaven forbid (no pun intended) that we ask for proof. If we lived the way you lived (just accept everything that everyone says) we may as well just disregard all things related to science. I mean, who cares about looking for evidence when it comes to engineering, medicine, chemistry, etc  ::) Lets just accept whatever someone says because it sounds nice and comfy  ::)

And "you" being the proof is nowhere considered proof of a diety. Anecdoatal evidence is the least relaible evidence.
Good post.

When I was very young, I was convinced that I had "the force" from Star Wars.

Should everyone accept it? I swear it was true for me.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 07:33:53 AM
Heaven forbid (no pun intended) that we ask for proof. If we lived the way you lived (just accept everything that everyone says) we may as well just disregard all things related to science. I mean, who cares about looking for evidence when it comes to engineering, medicine, chemistry, etc  ::) Lets just accept whatever someone says because it sounds nice and comfy  ::)

And "you" being the proof is nowhere considered proof of a diety. Anecdoatal evidence is the least relaible evidence.

LOL!!  You won't hear this type of response from me often, but I'm just not in the mood today.  That said....just save it...heard it all before and could've typed your response for you.  FYI ~ I have heard of science,  I have heard of education,  I have read a book other than the bible, no I don't believe in Easter bunny or Santa Claus and I do require evidence in order for things to deemed factual.  

I was providing some insight for a fellow believer, your "additional notes" weren't required.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 22, 2012, 07:41:19 AM
LOL!!  You won't hear this type of response from me often, but I'm just not in the mood today.  That said....just save it...heard it all before and could've typed your response for you.  FYI ~ I have heard of science,  I have heard of education,  I have read a book other than the bible, no I don't believe in Easter bunny or Santa Claus and I do require evidence in order for things to deemed factual.  

I was providing some insight for a fellow believer, your "additional notes" weren't required.

Obviously you don't because God has just as much proof as Santa or the Easter Bunny, yet you believe in God and not Santa. Does not sound too logical to me.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: SF1900 on June 22, 2012, 07:42:15 AM
LOL!!  You won't hear this type of response from me often, but I'm just not in the mood today.  That said....just save it...heard it all before and could've typed your response for you.  FYI ~ I have heard of science,  I have heard of education,  I have read a book other than the bible, no I don't believe in Easter bunny or Santa Claus and I do require evidence in order for things to deemed factual.  

I was providing some insight for a fellow believer, your "additional notes" weren't required.

Basically, saying "you've heard it all" means you don't have a leg to stand on. Next, you'll be telling me to be more open minded.  ::)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Agnostic007 on June 22, 2012, 07:45:55 AM
LOL!!  You won't hear this type of response from me often, but I'm just not in the mood today.  That said....just save it...heard it all before and could've typed your response for you.  FYI ~ I have heard of science,  I have heard of education,  I have read a book other than the bible, no I don't believe in Easter bunny or Santa Claus and I do require evidence in order for things to deemed factual.  

People like you, and I'll use my brother for example as I respect him tremendously, I can sort of understand. I don't wish to put words in your mouth so I will speak in general terms when I say you've experienced something personal that leads you to believe what you do. My brother has tried to convince me that there is evidence to support his belief in God and that I should believe as well. He offers the usual stuff from the bible which I discard for various reasons that I explain to him. Then he will offer personal experiences. I listen politely and explain that IF those things happened to me perhaps I would believe. But since they haven't and I only have his testimony to go on, it is much harder for it to have the same impact on me. Personal testimony in such things as the supernatural carry little weight if any among non believers as you already know. But I don't hold it against people who claim to have have experienced such things and believe... As long as they don't hold it against me for requiring something more than their testimony before I accept it as gospel.  


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 22, 2012, 07:56:13 AM
LOL!!  You won't hear this type of response from me often, but I'm just not in the mood today.  That said....just save it...heard it all before and could've typed your response for you.  FYI ~ I have heard of science,  I have heard of education,  I have read a book other than the bible, no I don't believe in Easter bunny or Santa Claus and I do require evidence in order for things to deemed factual.  

I was providing some insight for a fellow believer, your "additional notes" weren't required.
Hey, bro. You're a cool guy on here. I respect what you post. 

What really angers me about religious people is when they try to enfoce their worldview on others.

In all fairness, I've never seen you do that.

I wish you the best.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 08:14:42 AM
People like you, and I'll use my brother for example as I respect him tremendously, I can sort of understand. I don't wish to put words in your mouth so I will speak in general terms when I say you've experienced something personal that leads you to believe what you do. My brother has tried to convince me that there is evidence to support his belief in God and that I should believe as well. He offers the usual stuff from the bible which I discard for various reasons that I explain to him. Then he will offer personal experiences. I listen politely and explain that IF those things happened to me perhaps I would believe. But since they haven't and I only have his testimony to go on, it is much harder for it to have the same impact on me. Personal testimony in such things as the supernatural carry little weight if any among non believers as you already know. But I don't hold it against people who claim to have have experienced such things and believe... As long as they don't hold it against me for requiring something more than their testimony before I accept it as gospel.   

I hear you, I understand completely and agree with you 100%. 

Believe it or not, even I grow quite weary of the same repeat, novice conclusions about believers.  Conclusions such as: I find no value in scientific disciplines, I find no value in scientific discoveries, that I don't understand that some people require more proof in order to be convinced of something than others, that I've only read the bible, etc....ad nauseum....all the same repetitive generalizations!!!  You hear them a dozen times...ok fine.   You hear them two dozen times....ok fine.  I've heard them so many times LOL....I don't even know how many times.  Virtually every nonbelieving pseudointellectual on Getbig and other boards leads with these same statements LOL.  These same snap judgements can be fired at any given time throughout "a discussion"....pardon me, but I don't have patience for it today.  And supposedly I'm super dense LOL!!  Ok, off my soapbox now. 

Granted, those I've spoken with most often....you, avxo, syntaxmachine, magoo, etc....know my position so those types of generalizations are beneath that group.  But it's the randoms (ex: SF1900) who are never apart of the discussion or on the religious board and jump in midstream in a random religion thread on the G&O that for some reason hasn't yet been moved to the religion board that capriciously throw their hat in the ring that can wear on me some days.  Most days I just ignore the posts and let them catch up on their own.   


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 08:15:26 AM
Hey, bro. You're a cool guy on here. I respect what you post. 

What really angers me about religious people is when they try to enfoce their worldview on others.

In all fairness, I've never seen you do that.

I wish you the best.



I sincerely appreciate that!  Means a lot (all homo). 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on June 22, 2012, 08:26:31 AM
That's why your Mum Loves me, it's the ghetto in me, oh and plus the fact I bang her arse just the way she likes it - oh, and I reserve my compassion for people who deserve it - not offensive GETBIG aRSEHOLES who are clearly oxygen thieves! Hope this helps!
Well, when you start talking about people's mom, lol,... you admit defeat, you no longer have an intelligent argument, everyone here is making you look pretty stupid. Not really hard to do though.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 22, 2012, 08:40:19 AM
FYI ~ the atheists on Getbig care nothing for any personal, religious experience you've had or your family/friends have had.  If it doesn't come in a test tube or is peer-reviewed in a medical journal and is able to be replicated it means nothing to them.


I won't speak for other atheists here as atheists can disagree among themselves on everything, including their reason(s) for being atheists. I will say that while science is extremely important for establishing a justifiable worldview, it isn't everything. I am constantly babbling about logical matters on here, and no law of logic will ever be placed into a test tube. Ergo your representation of the irreligious on here isn't fair. Reason operates independently of science despite being essential for it.


I've shared my own experiences and simply receive such replies as "prove it" (despite the fact I am the proof) or "the fluctuations in brain waves you have during your religious experiences can be replicated in the lab with drugs....there's nothing unique about them."  


No one asked you for "proof" of anything. The point was raised that people around the world have the very same experience, except with different content to their experience. If everybody's religious experience were of Christ then we would have an argument for something like  your view. As you keep overlooking, however Christianity is a minority view whose content is not in the majority of peoples' religious experiences. Hence , the experience in question cannot be evidence for one particular sort of content as there is too much widely divergent content that goes along with that experience. The experience as such is either evidence of all of the divergent content (Christ, Buddha, Vishnu, becoming one with the universe, etc.) or none of it.

I happen to go with the 'none of the above' option.

P.S. In all of this you still haven't provided a single reason for supposing Christianity is correct. I kind of feel bad because I already know all of the most plausible ones. But I want to know how actual Christians think, not just those ensconsed in academic philosophy. Since there aren't any actual reasons being offered, the only explanation is that complex pyschological factors are at work (e.g., adopting specific beliefs to meet certain psychological needs). I would love to be 'proven' (shown, have it indicated to me, or whatever other word you prefer) to be wrong, however.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 08:54:10 AM
I won't speak for other atheists here as atheists can disagree among themselves on everything, including their reason(s) for being atheists. I will say that while science is extremely important for establishing a justifiable worldview, it isn't everything. I am constantly babbling about logical matters on here, and no law of logic will ever be placed into a test tube. Ergo your representation of the irreligious on here is a fiction your mind has concocted. Reason operates independently of science despite being essential for it.

No one asked you for "proof" of anything. The point was raised that people around the world have the very same experience, except with different content to their experience. If everybody's religious experience were of Christ then we would have an argument for something like  your view. As you keep overlooking, however Christianity is a minority view whose content is not in the majority of peoples' religious experiences. Hence , the experience in question cannot be evidence for one particular sort of content as there is too much widely divergent content that goes along with that experience. The experience as such is either evidence of all of the divergent content (Christ, Buddha, Vishna, becoming one with the universe, etc.) or none of it.

I happen to go with the 'none of the above' option.

P.S. In all of this you still haven't provided a single reason for supposing Christianity is correct. I kind of feel bad because I already know all of the most plausible ones. But I want to know how actual Christians think, not just those ensconsed in academic philosophy. Since there aren't any actual reasons being offered, the only explanation is that complex pyschological factors are at work (e.g., adopting specific beliefs to meet certain psychological needs).

I said the atheists on Getbig not all atheists and thus far all of my encounters with the Getbig atheists have indicated exactly what I stated.

I've been asked for proof of my experiences time and time again on this board....not within this thread, but many, many other threads. 

I know you already know the most plausible, apologetic explanations...as does avxo, as does Magoo, etc....I'm fully aware that you already have both sides of the debate all sewn up before the debate is even initiated.  Which begs the question:  why engage at all?

The only thing you have no concept of is the love of Christ in your life and that's all I want for anyone that hasn't experienced it.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 22, 2012, 09:04:53 AM
I said the atheists on Getbig not all atheists and thus far all of my encounters with the Getbig atheists have indicated exactly what I stated.

I've been asked for proof of my experiences time and time again on this board....not within this thread, but many, many other threads.  

I know you already know the most plausible, apologetic explanations...as does avxo, as does Magoo, etc....I'm fully aware that you already have both sides of the debate all sewn up before the debate is even initiated.  Which begs the question:  why engage at all?

The only thing you have no concept of is the love of Christ in your life and that's all I want for anyone that hasn't experienced it.

I am an atheist and I am on getbig, thus your proposed description is supposed to apply to me as well. Luckily I think you know better.

I already know and have dwelled upon every plausible reason for being Christian and still talk with you because I'd like to understand how everyday Christians think rather than merely the philosophically trained ones. There is also the possibility that I hear about a new angle, or perspective. Isn't all of this better than simply writing you off?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 09:32:11 AM
I am an atheist and I am on getbig, thus your proposed descreption is supposed to apply to me as well. Luckily I think you know better.

I already know and have dwelled upon every plausible reason for being Christian and still talk with you because I'd like to understand how everyday Christians think rather than merely the philosophically trained ones. There is also the possibility that I hear about a new angle, or perspective. Isn't all of this better than simply writing you off?


I've written someone off? 

I told another believer that on Getbig the atheists here don't find value in personal, religious experience and then I described what I've been told by said Getbig atheists. 

If you feel differently about religious experiences then for go forward purposes I'll refer to "the vast majority of Getbig atheists" and will completely respect your position....it's easy with me.  I don't have a "I'ma gonna getcha" agenda.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: avxo on June 22, 2012, 10:05:49 AM
I said the atheists on Getbig not all atheists and thus far all of my encounters with the Getbig atheists have indicated exactly what I stated.

I've been asked for proof of my experiences time and time again on this board....not within this thread, but many, many other threads.

I don't recall asking for proof of your experiences. But perhaps I did. Without reference to any specific incident I would like to add a bit more context: if you say "I had a personal revelation and as a result I believe" then I probably won't as for proof of this personal revelation, except in discussing how you interpreted that experience to decide that it was the Christian God as opposed to some other deity.

But if you (and I'm using the term generically here) use those personal experiences as an argument in a discussion, then I think that I am not only entitled, but obligated to ask you to prove those experiences.


I know you already know the most plausible, apologetic explanations...as does avxo, as does Magoo, etc....I'm fully aware that you already have both sides of the debate all sewn up before the debate is even initiated.  Which begs the question:  why engage at all?

I don't think I have both sides of the debate all sewn up. But I do think that if you put yourself in the shoes of someone like myself for a minute, you will understand that in debating a lot of these things, you've had to answer or explain the same thing a million times. And it can get old. Sometimes I try to preempt that by not only addressing the question, but also the two or three questions that, in my experience, are incoming.  That may come off as a bit arrogant, but it's not meant as such.

As for why I engage? The short answer is that I find the topic interesting. The slightly longer answer is that I find the topic interesting and sometimes I find people with whom I genuinely enjoy debating.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on June 22, 2012, 10:58:04 AM

I've written someone off?  

I told another believer that on Getbig the atheists here don't find value in personal, religious experience and then I described what I've been told by said Getbig atheists.  

If you feel differently about religious experiences then for go forward purposes I'll refer to "the vast majority of Getbig atheists" and will completely respect your position....it's easy with me.  I don't have a "I'ma gonna getcha" agenda.


I said 'isn't it better that I engage with Christians rather than write them off?' The whole paragraph the expression occurs in is me talking about my conduct, and the expression explicitly refers to me. Nothing here implies you doing anything. So I'm not saying you've written somebody off. Stop reading yourself into every paragraph!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on June 22, 2012, 11:03:45 AM
People are forgetting the most important question of all.  Will god believe in you?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on June 22, 2012, 11:07:37 AM
I don't recall asking for proof of your experiences. But perhaps I did. Without reference to any specific incident I would like to add a bit more context: if you say "I had a personal revelation and as a result I believe" then I probably won't as for proof of this personal revelation, except in discussing how you interpreted that experience to decide that it was the Christian God as opposed to some other deity.

But if you (and I'm using the term generically here) use those personal experiences as an argument in a discussion, then I think that I am not only entitled, but obligated to ask you to prove those experiences.


I don't think I have both sides of the debate all sewn up. But I do think that if you put yourself in the shoes of someone like myself for a minute, you will understand that in debating a lot of these things, you've had to answer or explain the same thing a million times. And it can get old. Sometimes I try to preempt that by not only addressing the question, but also the two or three questions that, in my experience, are incoming.  That may come off as a bit arrogant, but it's not meant as such.

As for why I engage? The short answer is that I find the topic interesting. The slightly longer answer is that I find the topic interesting and sometimes I find people with whom I genuinely enjoy debating.


I don't find anything uncomfortable or off-putting in what you just wrote....it was honest and didn't contain insults or arrogance. I don't mind speaking with you, syntaxmachine and magoo because the "let's gang up on the Christian mentality" isn't there.  The debate can actually be enjoyable at times!!  Certainly frustrating at others because I don't have all the answers, but that's part of the deal so I'm cool with it. 

I truly wish I could provide you some evidence of my very personal experiences, but I have nothing concrete to present.....just myself.  Ironically it's sometimes hardest to convince those closest to you that know you the best (siblings, close friends, even parents).  I've heard it said so many times before (and even again within this thread), but personal testimonies are the weakest form of evidence for God.  Ironically those experiences are some of the most powerful, transforming experiences and evidence for Christ in a believer's ife, but they were special and personal for me alone.  Certainly I can share them, but I fully understand how some embrace them and others dismiss them.  Again, if I had evidence to present you would have long since had it to review LOL!!!  It's about faith and how Christ reveals himself to you in life because of that faith. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on June 22, 2012, 08:59:20 PM
God is an atheist - True Story!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 23, 2012, 01:19:44 AM
I wrote a reply on this God thing but i removed it because i will go to Hell for it... ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on June 24, 2012, 02:22:43 AM
God is an atheist - True Story!
Haha!



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: DKlent on June 26, 2012, 09:47:27 AM
Not me.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on June 26, 2012, 12:15:03 PM
Fuck the Pope >:( >:(


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on July 07, 2012, 04:34:55 AM
Not me.
Well, we'll be seeing you in hell, DKlent!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: DKlent on July 07, 2012, 10:47:43 AM
Well, we'll be seeing you in hell, DKlent!

I'll see you there then.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on July 12, 2012, 06:19:18 AM
Fuck the Pope >:( >:(

Now you're going to hell, but on the bright side you probably will see the Pope there. ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on July 12, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Now you're going to hell, but on the bright side you probably will see the Pope there. ;D
Great post.. ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on July 15, 2012, 05:28:46 AM
.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on July 15, 2012, 10:22:41 AM
I checked again today and I still believe in God.  The Christian God.....there are so many Gods to choose from!  Was gonna go with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but figured I'd go with Christ.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on July 15, 2012, 01:58:20 PM
I checked again today and I still believe in God.  The Christian God.....there are so many Gods to choose from!  Was gonna go with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but figured I'd go with Christ.
God bless brother  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on July 15, 2012, 05:30:19 PM
I checked again today and I still believe in God.  The Christian God.....there are so many Gods to choose from!  Was gonna go with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but figured I'd go with Christ.
.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: orion on July 16, 2012, 05:35:36 AM
I checked again today and I still believe in God.  The Christian God.....there are so many Gods to choose from!  Was gonna go with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but figured I'd go with Christ.

I'm going with Chrom.  If it's good enough for Conan then it's good enough for me, if not then "THE HELL WITH YOU!". ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on July 31, 2012, 02:07:33 PM
God would not make humans speak on his behalf.  It's all bullshit.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on July 31, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
God would not make humans speak on his behalf.  It's all bullshit.
Shizzo, why you got to be like this bro... lol  8)

I mean the thread is already buried but yet you feel the need to get one last comment to state your opinion. Almost like in an instigating way,  :(


Haha, anyway, I am up for the challenge any day. First of all, you don't know what God would do, so stop pretending you do, Second of all God did get the old prophets to speak on his behalf. Just cause you decide to not believe this, it doesn't mean it wasn't true   ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on July 31, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Shizzo, why you got to be like this bro... lol  8)

I mean the thread is already buried but yet you feel the need to get one last comment to state your opinion. Almost like in an instigating way,  :(


Haha, anyway, I am up for the challenge any day. First of all, you don't know what God would do, so stop pretending you do, Second of all God did get the old prophets to speak on his behalf. Just cause you decide to not believe this, it doesn't mean it wasn't true   ;)
I'm talking about now.  Do you think god speaks to the pope? Like someone said earlier, most Cardinals have admitted that religion is bullshit.  I hope there is a god, but it seems that the smarter you are , the more you question.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on July 31, 2012, 02:35:57 PM
I'm talking about now.  Do you think god speaks to the pope? Like someone said earlier, most Cardinals have admitted that religion is bullshit.  I hope there is a god, but it seems that the smarter you are , the more you question.
There is smart people on both sides of the fence and no I don't believe  God talks to the pope.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on July 31, 2012, 02:45:35 PM
There is smart people on both sides of the fence and no I don't believe  God talks to the pope.
I'll put it this way, I hope that there is a god.  I hope that there is a new beginning after this life is over. Humans have the most developed brain for a reason.  We are programmed to think , question, and study the world around us.  Why should the story of God or Jesus be any different?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on July 31, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
I'll put it this way, I hope that there is a god.  I hope that there is a new beginning after this life is over. Humans have the most developed brain for a reason.  We are programmed to think , question, and study the world around us.  Why should the story of God or Jesus be any different?
It's not any different, you have to do your research and find out what leads you to the truth with an open heart. You will not believe what I am about to say but the following is true;......

I believe in God cause I have put 20-40 hours of study into history every week sense I was 12 years old and this has lead me to believe, I have studied every single nation, every single origin of language, every single manuscript or ancient document and every single recorded war. Culture, Traditions, Religions, ethnicity all pertaining to human history I have studied. I also have read the Biblical Narrative over and over again, then studied more history and always went back to the Biblical narrative and the more I study history the more I come back to the basic conclusion that the Biblical narrative is 100% accurate. The Genesis accounts in terms of developing nations is extremely accurate, the founders of the ancient world are all Biblical characters such as the historical Sargon the great who is the Biblical Nimrod, Sennacherib, Esarhaddon and Ashurbanipal from Assyria are all Biblical characters and there is massive amounts of information found on them, all being on par with the Biblical accounts. The Achaemenid dynasty is in the Biblical narrative and the list is endless.

Now get this, There is over 6000 erected structures in the Ancient world, maybe even 10 000, anyway, we know who erected most of them, actually 99% of them. We have 2000 + recorded battles, we have over 1000 well known kings, leaders or rulers, we have over 1000 military commanders, we have art work, we have 700+ known Nations of people or tribes. We have at least 70 distinct languages and we have tons of found ancient ruins that we have discovered with precisely the known ethnic groups we find associated with that region in ancient times.

What is my point?,.... SIMPLE,... all of the above is found between the year zero and 3000 BC, so what is found from the 3000BC to 6000BC, No erected structures, NONE, No recorded Battles, NONE, No recorded military battles, NONE, no recorded military commanders, NONE, No recorded civilizations, NONE.

There is simply nothing at all prior to this and the information doesn't descent in quantity, it simply gets cut right off at the 3000BC mark exactly on par with what you would expect with the Biblical narrative.

and this sir is one of the reasons I believe in the Bible.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on July 31, 2012, 03:30:04 PM
It's not any different, you have to do your research and find out what leads you to the truth with an open heart. You will not believe what I am about to say but the following is true;......

I believe in God cause I have put 20-40 hours of study into history every week sense I was 12 years old and this has lead me to believe, I have studied every single nation, every single origin of language, every single manuscript or ancient document and every single recorded war. Culture, Traditions, Religions, ethnicity all pertaining to human history I have studied. I also have read the Biblical Narrative over and over again, then studied more history and always went back to the Biblical narrative and the more I study history the more I come back to the basic conclusion that the Biblical narrative is 100% accurate. The Genesis accounts in terms of developing nations is extremely accurate, the founders of the ancient world are all Biblical characters such as the historical Sargon the great who is the Biblical Nimrod, Sennacherib, Esarhaddon and Ashurbanipal from Assyria are all Biblical characters and there is massive amounts of information found on them, all being on par with the Biblical accounts. The Achaemenid dynasty is in the Biblical narrative and the list is endless.

Now get this, There is over 6000 erected structures in the Ancient world, maybe even 10 000, anyway, we know who erected most of them, actually 99% of them. We have 2000 + recorded battles, we have over 1000 well known kings, leaders or rulers, we have over 1000 military commanders, we have art work, we have 700+ known Nations of people or tribes. We have at least 70 distinct languages and we have tons of found ancient ruins that we have discovered with precisely the known ethnic groups we find associated with that region in ancient times.

What is my point?,.... SIMPLE,... all of the above is found between the year zero and 3000 BC, so what is found from the 3000BC to 6000BC, No erected structures, NONE, No recorded Battles, NONE, No recorded military battles, NONE, no recorded military commanders, NONE, No recorded civilizations, NONE.

There is simply nothing at all prior to this and the information doesn't descent in quantity, it simply gets cut right off at the 3000BC mark exactly on par with what you would expect with the Biblical narrative.

and this sir is one of the reasons I believe in the Bible.


Meltdown.  I still respect your opinion  :-*  All we have is opinions.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on July 31, 2012, 03:37:48 PM
Meltdown.  I still respect your opinion  :-*  All we have is opinions.
how is that a meltdown?....  ???    I didn't even swear  :P


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on July 31, 2012, 03:39:49 PM
how is that a meltdown?....  ???    I didn't even swear  :P
Hey, It's Mob week on AMC.  All week great gangster ficks on at 8.  Tonight it's Godfather 2.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 02, 2012, 04:04:52 AM
It's not any different, you have to do your research and find out what leads you to the truth with an open heart. You will not believe what I am about to say but the following is true;......

I believe in God cause I have put 20-40 hours of study into history every week sense I was 12 years old and this has lead me to believe, I have studied every single nation, every single origin of language, every single manuscript or ancient document and every single recorded war. Culture, Traditions, Religions, ethnicity all pertaining to human history I have studied. I also have read the Biblical Narrative over and over again, then studied more history and always went back to the Biblical narrative and the more I study history the more I come back to the basic conclusion that the Biblical narrative is 100% accurate. The Genesis accounts in terms of developing nations is extremely accurate, the founders of the ancient world are all Biblical characters such as the historical Sargon the great who is the Biblical Nimrod, Sennacherib, Esarhaddon and Ashurbanipal from Assyria are all Biblical characters and there is massive amounts of information found on them, all being on par with the Biblical accounts. The Achaemenid dynasty is in the Biblical narrative and the list is endless.

Now get this, There is over 6000 erected structures in the Ancient world, maybe even 10 000, anyway, we know who erected most of them, actually 99% of them. We have 2000 + recorded battles, we have over 1000 well known kings, leaders or rulers, we have over 1000 military commanders, we have art work, we have 700+ known Nations of people or tribes. We have at least 70 distinct languages and we have tons of found ancient ruins that we have discovered with precisely the known ethnic groups we find associated with that region in ancient times.

What is my point?,.... SIMPLE,... all of the above is found between the year zero and 3000 BC, so what is found from the 3000BC to 6000BC, No erected structures, NONE, No recorded Battles, NONE, No recorded military battles, NONE, no recorded military commanders, NONE, No recorded civilizations, NONE.

There is simply nothing at all prior to this and the information doesn't descent in quantity, it simply gets cut right off at the 3000BC mark exactly on par with what you would expect with the Biblical narrative.

and this sir is one of the reasons I believe in the Bible.



Strange.

My studies in history have lead to the opposite conclusion. I don't mean the existence of God, but rather religion in general.
Religious texts are written from a human perspective.
Why the would the creator of the universe think in the same way as us stupid petty humans....?

If we already believe something and look for evidence to back it up, we'll usually find that evidence.

And just because there are no 'recorded' previous civilizations does not mean they didn't exist. Deserts move, landscapes change, coastlines sink....

Also, just because the Bible is accurate about the surrounding world it describes does not necessarily mean it's accurate about metaphysical issues as well. They are ancient texts, so of course would be describing or commenting on the world around them and how it relates to them, their lives and their problems.

Personally, I believe in the possibility of human civilization existing prior to 6000 BC.
Advanced structures have been discovered in Turkey and South America which are estimated to be from about 10 000 BC. I think some may have been estimated at 30 000 BC.

I like to keep an open mind about these issues.

We also don't really know what happened before the last ice-age.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 02, 2012, 12:21:56 PM
The estimations you speak of dating back prior to 3000 BC is not accepted by any University or historian, only theories and claims. The accepted age of the oldest civilization is that of Summer and the language and/or writing is cuneiform dating back 3000BC.

You can believe in prior civilizations all you want but there is not 1 shred of proof, no monuments, no structures, no monarchy, no soldiers, no battles. The problem is not that there is not signs of people, the problem is the contrast in signs of humans in short span of time, say 500 years, Example 4000 BC there is nothing and all of a sudden there is over 30 nations and many different languages and hundreds of structures and recorded battles in less then a 1000 years. This is not what you would find if there was people everywhere 1000's of years prior, there would be signs of human existence.

Now to your other point, is the entire Bible accurate just cause the historical narrative of the Bible is accurate, no one said that, although it is my believe that it is, my argument is from our common ground and not my faith just to make fair here.

Deserts move, landscapes change, coastlines sink....  so you are saying this wiped out all sign of humans, lol,,.... all these catastrophes must have occurred all at the same time lol and every where at once too, according to this logic, C'mon brother. All this happened in every era and there is always a sign of humans. Now I do agree that an Ice age would wipe out any signs of human existence, however, no one has ever dated an ice age to this time period.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on August 02, 2012, 02:14:25 PM
Both Griffith's and Onetimehard's  last two thoughts, are the reason why we will never have a true answer.  Both have logical arguments.  I guess it comes down to "faith" for some people.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 03, 2012, 12:57:56 AM
The estimations you speak of dating back prior to 3000 BC is not accepted by any University or historian, only theories and claims. The accepted age of the oldest civilization is that of Summer and the language and/or writing is cuneiform dating back 3000BC.

You can believe in prior civilizations all you want but there is not 1 shred of proof, no monuments, no structures, no monarchy, no soldiers, no battles. The problem is not that there is not signs of people, the problem is the contrast in signs of humans in short span of time, say 500 years, Example 4000 BC there is nothing and all of a sudden there is over 30 nations and many different languages and hundreds of structures and recorded battles in less then a 1000 years. This is not what you would find if there was people everywhere 1000's of years prior, there would be signs of human existence.

Now to your other point, is the entire Bible accurate just cause the historical narrative of the Bible is accurate, no one said that, although it is my believe that it is, my argument is from our common ground and not my faith just to make fair here.

Deserts move, landscapes change, coastlines sink....  so you are saying this wiped out all sign of humans, lol,,.... all these catastrophes must have occurred all at the same time lol and every where at once too, according to this logic, C'mon brother. All this happened in every era and there is always a sign of humans. Now I do agree that an Ice age would wipe out any signs of human existence, however, no one has ever dated an ice age to this time period.

North Africa used to the breadbasket of the Roman Empire, in less than 2000 years the landscape has changed dramatically. There used to be woodlands, lions and other animals as found further inland. In areas where there are now desert dunes, there used to be trees.
This is a dramatic change for less than 2000 years.

With regards to 'university' accepted theories, it seems they are set on a particular narrative and generally quite slow to change or embracing newer theories and evidence.

For instance, evidence exists of far more extensive populations living in the Amazon region than had previously been thought, and of a more advanced nature as well. Evidence such as foundations, extensive deep dykes and better quality pottery than later periods. Much of it is now submerged or destroyed by dense jungle.
The local oral history also speak about once having large cities and have shown it is possible to live there if the forest areas are cleared.

However, this goes against the current narrative that is 'impossible' for a large scale society to have once lived in the Amazon region. The evidence is there, but you won't read about it in history textbooks.

There's even documented evidence that the Chinese sent an expedition to Africa even before the Europeans did.
Have the history books changed....? No, because there's already an established narrative and its doubtful anyone would want to put their careers on the line to rock the boat.

Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been dated at 7500-6000 BC with surrounding settlements at 9000 or 11 000 BC.
If human civilization only started in 6000 BC then why were they able to already build such advanced structures....?
Human beings are supposed to be hunter-gatherers at this stage.
Only 5% of the complex had been unearthed.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on August 03, 2012, 07:43:05 AM
North Africa used to the breadbasket of the Roman Empire, in less than 2000 years the landscape has changed dramatically. There used to be woodlands, lions and other animals as found further inland. In areas where there are now desert dunes, there used to be trees.
This is a dramatic change for less than 2000 years.

With regards to 'university' accepted theories, it seems they are set on a particular narrative and generally quite slow to change or embracing newer theories and evidence.

For instance, evidence exists of far more extensive populations living in the Amazon region than had previously been thought, and of a more advanced nature as well. Evidence such as foundations, extensive deep dykes and better quality pottery than later periods. Much of it is now submerged or destroyed by dense jungle.
The local oral history also speak about once having large cities and have shown it is possible to live there if the forest areas are cleared.

However, this goes against the current narrative that is 'impossible' for a large scale society to have once lived in the Amazon region. The evidence is there, but you won't read about it in history textbooks.

There's even documented evidence that the Chinese sent an expedition to Africa even before the Europeans did.
Have the history books changed....? No, because there's already an established narrative and its doubtful anyone would want to put their careers on the line to rock the boat.

Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been dated at 7500-6000 BC with surrounding settlements at 9000 or 11 000 BC.
If human civilization only started in 6000 BC then why were they able to already build such advanced structures....?
Human beings are supposed to be hunter-gatherers at this stage.
Only 5% of the complex had been unearthed.

well all i know is the Romans shit their pants and built a wall too keep us scots out...the English have not the pleasure anymore...but on a positive note..your post was very intellectual for Getbig.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on August 03, 2012, 01:25:57 PM
We really have no idea what really happened in ancient times.  I'm sure it would blow our minds to find out the truth.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Donny on August 04, 2012, 09:36:38 AM
We really have no idea what really happened in ancient times.  I'm sure it would blow our minds to find out the truth.
one thing is sure the Romans had whore houses ;D


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 04, 2012, 04:03:56 PM
North Africa used to the breadbasket of the Roman Empire, in less than 2000 years the landscape has changed dramatically. There used to be woodlands, lions and other animals as found further inland. In areas where there are now desert dunes, there used to be trees.
This is a dramatic change for less than 2000 years.

With regards to 'university' accepted theories, it seems they are set on a particular narrative and generally quite slow to change or embracing newer theories and evidence.

For instance, evidence exists of far more extensive populations living in the Amazon region than had previously been thought, and of a more advanced nature as well. Evidence such as foundations, extensive deep dykes and better quality pottery than later periods. Much of it is now submerged or destroyed by dense jungle.
The local oral history also speak about once having large cities and have shown it is possible to live there if the forest areas are cleared.

However, this goes against the current narrative that is 'impossible' for a large scale society to have once lived in the Amazon region. The evidence is there, but you won't read about it in history textbooks.

There's even documented evidence that the Chinese sent an expedition to Africa even before the Europeans did.
Have the history books changed....? No, because there's already an established narrative and its doubtful anyone would want to put their careers on the line to rock the boat.


If human civilization only started in 6000 BC then why were they able to already build such advanced structures....?
Human beings are supposed to be hunter-gatherers at this stage.
Only 5% of the complex had been unearthed.

OK I am not going to lie, this is a very good post  ;)

except of course this; Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been dated at 7500-6000 BC with surrounding settlements at 9000 or 11 000 BC.

^^^this is a fraud to make good television, a professor (an atheist BTW) ripped the dates apart, very vague and unsubstantiated, they pulled those dates out of no where, very poor, never be accepted, I will find you his article, completely mocks them, very embarrassing.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on August 05, 2012, 12:49:43 PM
OK I am not going to lie, this is a very good post  ;)

except of course this; Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been dated at 7500-6000 BC with surrounding settlements at 9000 or 11 000 BC.

^^^this is a fraud to make good television, a professor (an atheist BTW) ripped the dates apart, very vague and unsubstantiated, they pulled those dates out of no where, very poor, never be accepted, I will find you his article, completely mocks them, very embarrassing.
Can we substitute the word "faith" for "hope" One?  I think that it is more fitting.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 05, 2012, 01:23:46 PM
Just checking in and I still believe in God....have a good one!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: godeep on August 05, 2012, 03:42:22 PM
Raised in a religious household and went to church regularly growing up, vacation bible school and all.

I very thankful for those times; the hypocrisy and lack of rational thought I witnessed helped me become the faithless atheist that I am today.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 05, 2012, 09:44:25 PM
Raised in a religious household and went to church regularly growing up, vacation bible school and all.

I very thankful for those times; the hypocrisy and lack of rational thought I witnessed helped me become the faithless atheist that I am today.
I know many devout Catholics and Methodists that have attended church for decades and have no concept of Christ, salvation or a relationship with Christ.  Attending church, sunday school and vacation bible school regularly is just that...regular attendance.  The hypocrisy of others has nothing to do with an individual relationship with Christ and a lack of rational thought is commonplace in both organized religion and every academic setting and discipline.  Invest in Christ and Christ alone....organized religion is meaningless without a relationship with Christ.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 05, 2012, 09:46:58 PM
OK I am not going to lie, this is a very good post  ;)

except of course this; Göbekli Tepe in Turkey has been dated at 7500-6000 BC with surrounding settlements at 9000 or 11 000 BC.

^^^this is a fraud to make good television, a professor (an atheist BTW) ripped the dates apart, very vague and unsubstantiated, they pulled those dates out of no where, very poor, never be accepted, I will find you his article, completely mocks them, very embarrassing.

Haha thanks  ;D

About Gobekli Tepe, those dates seem to be accepted by mainstream archaeologists though.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 08, 2012, 10:40:48 PM
In my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one.  I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation.  A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death. It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 09, 2012, 07:36:11 AM
In my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one.  I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation.  A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death. It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees.

I think what many forget, simply do not know or choose to ignore is that God is not only a "loving" and "personal" God, but he's also equally a God of justice.  A parent that loves his child also disciplines his child accordingly.  

The punishment in eternity is the actual seperation from God and all of his divine attributes being removed for those that choose to have nothing to do with God.  I believe there are levels of hell much like there are levels of heaven and those that choose to seperate themselves from God will be given that seperation and judged accordingly (along with everyone else).


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 09, 2012, 08:13:17 AM
I think what many forget, simply do not know or choose to ignore is that God is not only a "loving" and "personal" God, but he's also equally a God of justice.  A parent that loves his child also disciplines his child accordingly.  

The punishment in eternity is the actual seperation from God and all of his divine attributes being removed for those that choose to have nothing to do with God.  I believe there are levels of hell much like there are levels of heaven and those that choose to seperate themselves from God will be given that seperation and judged accordingly (along with everyone else).

How does one reconcile the cruel and vengeful God of the Old Testament with the more loving and forgiving One in the New Testament...?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 09, 2012, 09:00:11 AM
How does one reconcile the cruel and vengeful God of the Old Testament with the more loving and forgiving One in the New Testament...?

Examples you have would be helpful.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 09, 2012, 10:13:59 AM
Examples you have would be helpful.
Old Testament:
For instance that a father could sell his daughter into slavery if she disobeyed him.
Moses being told by God to kill everyone from one of the neighbouring tribes, including all women and children.
Public stoning of adulterers, witches etc.
Animal sacrifice.
The killing of priests who made any errors in the temple of the Ark of the Covenant.

I see this site lists quite a few examples: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html)

Not trying to be derogatory or anything, I'm genuinely interested how the two books can be reconciled.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 09, 2012, 10:26:20 AM
How does one reconcile the cruel and vengeful God of the Old Testament with the more loving and forgiving One in the New Testament...?
People need to focus more on history to have a fair perspective of the old testament. What people fail to realize is the time in which the old testament took place was by no means civilized, in fact it was very disturbing and chaotic, very satanic and demonic.

You could not travel unless you where with a caravan full of soldiers, be caught on the road by yourself and consider yourself raped and tortured.

You have a group of dead bodies impaled in front of the city wall and you have another group of heads stuck on spike, public execution was a daily occurrence; flayed, stoned, boiled, beheaded, you name it.

You have wars every single year and it wasn't only soldiers, when your city got raided, men, woman, and children would get beaten, tortured, and killed. Actually babies would get smashed against the wall or thrown off balconies.

Many nations and tribes practice sacrificial rituals, often the person sacrificed would be burnt alive or buried alive and most sacrifices where children.

Death Sentences included being fed to animals, being stretched limb to limb, ah and how about getting honey poured on you and getting 5000 bees sting you to death.

God cruel?  I think it's an understatement to say he was justified in every action he took in the old testament





Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 09, 2012, 10:33:20 AM
People need to focus more on history to have a fair perspective of the old testament. What people fail to realize is the time in which the old testament took place was by no means civilized, in fact it was very disturbing and chaotic, very satanic and demonic.

You could not travel unless you where with a caravan full of soldiers, be caught on the road by yourself and consider yourself raped and tortured.

You have a group of dead bodies impaled in front of the city wall and you have another group of heads stuck on spike, public execution was a daily occurrence; flayed, stoned, boiled, beheaded, you name it.

You have wars every single year and it wasn't only soldiers, when your city got raided, men, woman, and children would get beaten, tortured, and killed. Actually babies would get smashed against the wall or thrown off balconies.

Many nations and tribes practice sacrificial rituals, often the person sacrificed would be burnt alive or buried alive and most sacrifices where children.

Death Sentences included being fed to animals, being stretched limb to limb, ah and how about getting honey poured on you and getting 5000 bees sting you to death.

God cruel?  I think it's an understatement to say he was justified in every action he took in the old testament

I know that, but this is human behaviour.

God is supposed to be superior to petty human emotions, thought and logic.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 09, 2012, 10:38:50 AM
Old Testament:
For instance that a father could sell his daughter into slavery if she disobeyed him.
Moses being told by God to kill everyone from one of the neighbouring tribes, including all women and children.
Public stoning of adulterers, witches etc.
Animal sacrifice.
The killing of priests who made any errors in the temple of the Ark of the Covenant.

I see this site lists quite a few examples: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html)

Not trying to be derogatory or anything, I'm genuinely interested how the two books can be reconciled.
Again, read your history.....
Every nation on the planet gave birth to their nation this way, there is no other way. This was not only the norm for every nation on the planet but very necessary or else the nation would not survive, period. What you wrote above is the only way a nation can strive and grow throw obedience and harsh laws other wise it would simply fall apart.

Moses is bringing nearly a million people into enemy territory, to go forward is to war by the 100 000's , there is no other option, any military commander knows that the soldiers are driven through their spiritual beliefs and to have a tribe rebel could literally destroy the entire nation. What Moses did to disintegrate the rebellion is no different then what any other nation or military commander would do in his shoes


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 09, 2012, 10:47:31 AM
I know that, but this is human behaviour.

God is supposed to be superior to petty human emotions, thought and logic.
I don't know about you but if a tribe practices satanic rituals and has such practices as to have every single family kill their first born at the age of 3 but not only kill him but burn him alive, then have every single man give up his wife to the tribal leader before he marries her, then destroy neighbors in very cruel manner, pillage, murder, rape, and drink blood, brother these people need to be completely wiped out off the face of the earth before they spread their destructive ways.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 09, 2012, 01:08:42 PM
Again, read your history.....
Every nation on the planet gave birth to their nation this way, there is no other way. This was not only the norm for every nation on the planet but very necessary or else the nation would not survive, period. What you wrote above is the only way a nation can strive and grow throw obedience and harsh laws other wise it would simply fall apart.

Moses is bringing nearly a million people into enemy territory, to go forward is to war by the 100 000's , there is no other option, any military commander knows that the soldiers are driven through their spiritual beliefs and to have a tribe rebel could literally destroy the entire nation. What Moses did to disintegrate the rebellion is no different then what any other nation or military commander would do in his shoes

I agree with you 100% here.
If you put religion out of it, from a practical perspective, it would be the only way to go to ensure survival of a small and heavily outnumbered tribe.
I agree that Moses did what was necessary considering what was at stake, that one mistake could lead to all the people under his command being wiped out or enslaved yet again.


And by the way, good post earlier.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 09, 2012, 01:17:15 PM
I don't know about you but if a tribe practices satanic rituals and has such practices as to have every single family kill their first born at the age of 3 but not only kill him but burn him alive, then have every single man give up his wife to the tribal leader before he marries her, then destroy neighbors in very cruel manner, pillage, murder, rape, and drink blood, brother these people need to be completely wiped out off the face of the earth before they spread their destructive ways.

I see where you're coming from with this post and the previous one.

Admittedly, from a practical perspective you do make a good case.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 09, 2012, 01:31:06 PM
I agree with you 100% here.
If you put religion out of it, from a practical perspective, it would be the only way to go to ensure survival of a small and heavily outnumbered tribe.
I agree that Moses did what was necessary considering what was at stake, that one mistake could lead to all the people under his command being wiped out or enslaved yet again.


And by the way, good post earlier.
It's a heavy burden, but there is an old saying in war "If one ember is left alight, the entire forest can burn" so better to wipe out the whole tribe you conquered unfortunately.

This was the way until the Babylonian exile in around 570 BC, by this time there were established professions and designated city centers all over the globe. So instead of slaughtering everyone, The Babylonians simply exiled all the politicians, teachers, and all the high class, the rich, and the talented. Basically leaving the uneducated and the poor only. This method allowed them to further conquest lands without slaughtering the Woman and children. Of course the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans followed the same methods.

 I can't imagine living in those days, all I can say is Humans are a cruel species


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 09, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
It's a heavy burden, but there is an old saying in war "If one ember is left alight, the entire forest can burn" so better to wipe out the whole tribe you conquered unfortunately.

This was the way until the Babylonian exile in around 570 BC, by this time there were established professions and designated city centers all over the globe. So instead of slaughtering everyone, The Babylonians simply exiled all the politicians, teachers, and all the high class, the rich, and the talented. Basically leaving the uneducated and the poor only. This method allowed them to further conquest lands without slaughtering the Woman and children. Of course the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans followed the same methods.

 I can't imagine living in those days, all I can say is Humans are a cruel species

Plus, you have to consider God's act of mercy for those children not yet old or mature enough to make a decision to serve God or not.  Yes, men, women and children were put to death, but those children that perished took their last breathe on earth and their first breathe in eternity with the father.  Had they been allowed to continue on earth they would've maintained the "traditions" of their elders and completely forsaken God and spent an eternity without him.  God used the Isralites to to both eliminate an evil, sadistic cult and mercifully save their young, unaccountable children.   "But they murdered children?!!"  What's more merciful?  Prolonging their lives to engage in several decades of inevitable evil here on earth leading to a decision to be eternally separated from God or calling them home with the father for eternity via a brief moment on earth?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 10, 2012, 04:27:33 AM
I wrote a boring post and deleted it.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 10, 2012, 07:30:46 AM
People need to focus more on history to have a fair perspective of the old testament. What people fail to realize is the time in which the old testament took place was by no means civilized, in fact it was very disturbing and chaotic, very satanic and demonic.

You could not travel unless you where with a caravan full of soldiers, be caught on the road by yourself and consider yourself raped and tortured.

You have a group of dead bodies impaled in front of the city wall and you have another group of heads stuck on spike, public execution was a daily occurrence; flayed, stoned, boiled, beheaded, you name it.

You have wars every single year and it wasn't only soldiers, when your city got raided, men, woman, and children would get beaten, tortured, and killed. Actually babies would get smashed against the wall or thrown off balconies.

Many nations and tribes practice sacrificial rituals, often the person sacrificed would be burnt alive or buried alive and most sacrifices where children.

Death Sentences included being fed to animals, being stretched limb to limb, ah and how about getting honey poured on you and getting 5000 bees sting you to death.

God cruel?  I think it's an understatement to say he was justified in every action he took in the old testament

Sounds like modern day American occupied IRAQ


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 10, 2012, 07:52:50 AM
Sounds like modern day American occupied IRAQ

Now that you mention it...


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on August 10, 2012, 04:00:54 PM
Sounds like modern day American occupied IRAQ
lol., funny how you and I are always going against each other on this perspective; the same guys on here that defend the US, such as shockwave and crew are arguing the point that it was necessary to drop the bomb on Nagaski on another thread. Just to make it clear, even though I think America is not as savage as you make them out to seem at the present time, I will always be against what they did to Japan.

It was not a war strategy, in fact it was a war crime, very demonic and out right psychotic. It doesn`t matter if it stopped the war, you CAN NOT  attack civilians come hell or high waters, how anyone can say it was a good idea is beyond me.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 10, 2012, 05:11:25 PM
Old Testament:
For instance that a father could sell his daughter into slavery if she disobeyed him.
Moses being told by God to kill everyone from one of the neighbouring tribes, including all women and children.
Public stoning of adulterers, witches etc.
Animal sacrifice.
The killing of priests who made any errors in the temple of the Ark of the Covenant.

I see this site lists quite a few examples: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html)

Not trying to be derogatory or anything, I'm genuinely interested how the two books can be reconciled.

Sorry couldn't respond until today....busy, busy.....anyhow, I jumped in briefly yesterday and commented on your second point in another post concerning the Israelites being commanded by God to destroy neighboring tribes. 

As far as the reference to slavery I had a couple of questions first.  Which verse are you referring to?  When the scriptures refer to "slavery" in Israel what do you believe is being permitted?  Slavery from the pre-Civil War south in US?  Slavery like that which the Israelites were delivered from in Egypt?  Or is it more like "the bible approves of slavery...SLAVERY...enou gh said!"?

Adulterers and witches being stoned I relate to Christ's relationship with his body of believers or his "marriage to the church".  One of the most painful experiences in any relationship can be brought about by adultery.  The Israelites made a covenant with God and in doing so were to distinguish themselves in every way from the world around them according to God's holy, divine standards.  Those engaging in adulterous relationships have damaged the holy union under God and it's apparent how seriously God considers that union and how union is symbolic of his union with his church.  Similarly with witchcraft/mediums/sorcery, this act is considered demonic and idolatrous....it is simply not of God and absolutely in opposition of God and completely defies the covenant made with God.  The covenant was not made with any other person/being other than God so engaging in witchcraft which promotes worship of false Gods and idols and Satanic activity completely destroys  the relationship with God.  The penalty of death seems extreme to most, but it certainly drives home God's serious, serious treatment of these covenant defying acts.

Life is in the blood and the wages of our sin is death.  In order for the Israelites to reconcile themselves with God a blood sacrifice via animal sacrifices was required.   Christ established a new covenant and became the ultimate sacrifice for all eliminating the need for further bloodshed.

The death penalty for priests in the Israelite temple does seem extreme, but this is the place that absolute ruler, owner and creator of the universe would reside and God is without flaw or fault and is absolutely holy.  Very specific instructions were given to preserve that divine status within the moving temple and to keep man aligned with that standard of divinity while in direct service of God; further, the penalty for not following clear instruction was well known.  In essence, priests knew exactly what they were responsible for regardless of the severity of punishment for certain acts.

I’m sure others can add to my thoughts and present them better than I’m able to.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 11, 2012, 02:53:25 AM
lol., funny how you and I are always going against each other on this perspective; the same guys on here that defend the US, such as shockwave and crew are arguing the point that it was necessary to drop the bomb on Nagaski on another thread. Just to make it clear, even though I think America is not as savage as you make them out to seem at the present time, I will always be against what they did to Japan.

It was not a war strategy, in fact it was a war crime, very demonic and out right psychotic. It doesn`t matter if it stopped the war, you CAN NOT  attack civilians come hell or high waters, how anyone can say it was a good idea is beyond me.

Agreed, it was a despotic vengeful demonstration that ended the war without a doubt and maybe potentially saved enormous potential allied deaths (although I think the Japanese were ready to surrender before the bomb), plus the Japanese Soldiers were no saints, but I can't imagine a plausible justification for the mass killing of so many innocent civilians in such devastating fashion.  The fallout from the bomb was incomprehensible, and considering America condemned the holocaust, it appears shockingly hypocritical to use nuclear weapons to cause a similar amount of devastation.  I am no historian, but Pearl Habour pales in comparison to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.  It seems that America likes to up the ante by ten fold when under threat or during war, it's like their attitude is "You call that aggression and terrorism, well check out this aggression and terrorism and then they unleash unholy hell rather than finding the most humanist and diplomatic approach that sees them win with minimal civilian suffering.  Maybe I am too idealistic, but surely humans can do better!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on August 11, 2012, 03:23:18 AM
Agreed, it was a despotic vengeful demonstration that ended the war without a doubt and maybe potentially saved enormous potential allied deaths (although I think the Japanese were ready to surrender before the bomb), plus the Japanese Soldiers were no saints, but I can't imagine a plausible justification for the mass killing of so many innocent civilians in such devastating fashion.  The fallout from the bomb was incomprehensible, and considering America condemned the holocaust, it appears shockingly hypocritical to use nuclear weapons to cause a similar amount of devastation.  I am no historian, but Pearl Habour pales in comparison to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.  It seems that America likes to up the ante by ten fold when under threat or during war, it's like their attitude is "You call that aggression and terrorism, well check out this aggression and terrorism and then they unleash unholy hell rather than finding the most humanist and diplomatic approach that sees them win with minimal civilian suffering.  Maybe I am too idealistic, but surely humans can do better!
Without hesitation, I agree with this part of your post.

Look, you've just got it out for America. Im not sure why, but that's your thing.

If you ever have an objective thought, please let us know.

OF FUCKING COURSE Pearl Harbor and the A bomb are not the same thing. To pretend they are directly related, in a tit for tat sense, is so absurd that it proves you have no interest in antyhing but America-bashing. Did they happen on consecutive days?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 11, 2012, 04:43:13 AM
Without hesitation, I agree with this part of your post.

Look, you've just got it out for America. Im not sure why, but that's your thing.

If you ever have an objective thought, please let us know.

OF FUCKING COURSE Pearl Harbor and the A bomb are not the same thing. To pretend they are directly related, in a tit for tat sense, is so absurd that it proves you have no interest in antyhing but America-bashing. Did they happen on consecutive days?
Without hesitation, I agree with this part of your post. The two events are related, America entered the war after the attack on Pearl Habor and it has been suggested that using Nukes on Japan was most certainly paypack as well as a certain end to the conflict.  Oh, by the way, I'm not the only one who wants to see America fall, there are about 3 billion other people on the planet who couldn't care less if America fall of the face of the Earth! 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Agnostic007 on August 14, 2012, 10:10:16 AM
Without hesitation, I agree with this part of your post. The two events are related, America entered the war after the attack on Pearl Habor and it has been suggested that using Nukes on Japan was most certainly paypack as well as a certain end to the conflict.  Oh, by the way, I'm not the only one who wants to see America fall, there are about 3 billion other people on the planet who couldn't care less if America fall of the face of the Earth! 

fuck off.... seriously


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 15, 2012, 06:38:11 AM
Without hesitation, I agree with this part of your post. The two events are related, America entered the war after the attack on Pearl Habor and it has been suggested that using Nukes on Japan was most certainly paypack as well as a certain end to the conflict.  Oh, by the way, I'm not the only one who wants to see America fall, there are about 3 billion other people on the planet who couldn't care less if America fall of the face of the Earth! 

How has the US wronged you E-Kul?  Did they drop too much aid into your town?  Bring too much medicine to your sick?  Remove too many of your evil leaders?  Provide too much hope to your children? 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 16, 2012, 02:03:45 AM
How has the US wronged you E-Kul?  Did they drop too much aid into your town?  Bring too much medicine to your sick?  Remove too many of your evil leaders?  Provide too much hope to your children? 
America has wronged the whole of humanity with their imperial expansionist interventionist genocidal foreign policies, it's illegal wars, it's destruction of democracy, it's disgusting use of propaganda, it's destruction of the legal system and justice, it's promotion of greed and immorality, it's lust for power and wealth at the expense of the disenfranchised and weak, it's complete disregard for human rights, it's stark hypocrisy, it's lack of compassion, empathy or regard for those they kill, rape and generally trample all over for reasons that can only be regarded as sociopathic, it's promotion of the elites and vilification of the poor, it's introduction of mainstream terrorism and fear to implement fascist polices and to top it all off it's overt covering up of it's atrocities by silencing whistle blowers and using the media to misinform and distract the public from the important issues and cover up there crimes.  Australians hate America, it's just our weak as piss politicians who have become puppets in Americas attempt to take over the world.  America has exported nothing but terror, hopelessness, fear, lies, propaganda and trash TV.  Fuck America.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 16, 2012, 08:34:45 AM
America has wronged the whole of humanity with their imperial expansionist interventionist genocidal foreign policies, it's illegal wars, it's destruction of democracy, it's disgusting use of propaganda, it's destruction of the legal system and justice, it's promotion of greed and immorality, it's lust for power and wealth at the expense of the disenfranchised and weak, it's complete disregard for human rights, it's stark hypocrisy, it's lack of compassion, empathy or regard for those they kill, rape and generally trample all over for reasons that can only be regarded as sociopathic, it's promotion of the elites and vilification of the poor, it's introduction of mainstream terrorism and fear to implement fascist polices and to top it all off it's overt covering up of it's atrocities by silencing whistle blowers and using the media to misinform and distract the public from the important issues and cover up there crimes.  Australians hate America, it's just our weak as piss politicians who have become puppets in Americas attempt to take over the world.  America has exported nothing but terror, hopelessness, fear, lies, propaganda and trash TV.  Fuck America.

nonsense.....the US is certainly not without its failures, but this is nonsense.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 16, 2012, 09:07:36 AM
nonsense.....the US is certainly not without its failures, but this is nonsense.
Is that your diplomatic spin on it, like an attempt to put a band aid on an amputated leg, I think I went easy and you minimised even that!  America is a shithole, full of ignorant and misinformed people.  People can attempt to prevent the truth getting out as much as they like, but America is well hated for good reason, and no amount of harm reduction public relation spinning of the facts will change anybody's mind who is walking around with there eyes open.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 16, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
Is that your diplomatic spin on it, like an attempt to put a band aid on an amputated leg, I think I went easy and you minimised even that!  America is a shithole, full of ignorant and misinformed people.  People can attempt to prevent the truth getting out as much as they like, but America is well hated for good reason, and no amount of harm reduction public relation spinning of the facts will change anybody's mind who is walking around with there eyes open.

So you been to Perth, brah?


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on August 16, 2012, 10:17:52 AM
Is that your diplomatic spin on it, like an attempt to put a band aid on an amputated leg, I think I went easy and you minimised even that!  America is a shithole, full of ignorant and misinformed people.  People can attempt to prevent the truth getting out as much as they like, but America is well hated for good reason, and no amount of harm reduction public relation spinning of the facts will change anybody's mind who is walking around with there eyes open.
I'm just not buying your version of "America the Great Satan". 

Still I'll ask again, what has the US done to you in Australia?  Give me some context and perspective here.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 16, 2012, 10:48:44 AM
I'm just not buying your version of "America the Great Satan". 

Still I'll ask again, what has the US done to you in Australia?  Give me some context and perspective here.
Like I said, it's not what America has done to me personally, it's what they have done to humanity - they have corrupted all that is GOOD! They Label their EVILS as Righteous and Honourable, they have corrupted the TRUTH by calling it LIES, they have created UNTOLD wars calling it PEACE, they condemn others and yet behave in a far more perverse and murderous way than those they condemn.  They preach democracy while practising FASCISM - one could go on indefinitely discussing how deeply sick and twisted the United States are, for want of a better phrase "They are a GODLESS country".  If my country wasn't aligned with them it wouldn't sting so much, but like many other Countries, the USA has exported their sick culture here, manipulated our politicians and our policies all in an attempt to take over the world.  I look forward to Americas demise, as do many other billions of citizens who have suffered because of Americas Imperialistic Attitude towards the rest of the world.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Griffith on August 19, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
America has wronged the whole of humanity with their imperial expansionist interventionist genocidal foreign policies, it's illegal wars, it's destruction of democracy, it's disgusting use of propaganda, it's destruction of the legal system and justice, it's promotion of greed and immorality, it's lust for power and wealth at the expense of the disenfranchised and weak, it's complete disregard for human rights, it's stark hypocrisy, it's lack of compassion, empathy or regard for those they kill, rape and generally trample all over for reasons that can only be regarded as sociopathic, it's promotion of the elites and vilification of the poor, it's introduction of mainstream terrorism and fear to implement fascist polices and to top it all off it's overt covering up of it's atrocities by silencing whistle blowers and using the media to misinform and distract the public from the important issues and cover up there crimes.  Australians hate America, it's just our weak as piss politicians who have become puppets in Americas attempt to take over the world.  America has exported nothing but terror, hopelessness, fear, lies, propaganda and trash TV.  Fuck America.

The problem is the government.

The people are good, but they are lead by an entrenched ruling elite who are tied in with the military establishment/industries, oil companies, massive corporations and of course the CIA.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are basically the same thing.
Their leaders will still be tied-in with these groups.
And it's the same in most other countries as well....


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Tapeworm on August 19, 2012, 08:13:49 AM
Like I said, it's not what America has done to me personally, it's what they have done to humanity - they have corrupted all that is GOOD! They Label their EVILS as Righteous and Honourable, they have corrupted the TRUTH by calling it LIES, they have created UNTOLD wars calling it PEACE, they condemn others and yet behave in a far more perverse and murderous way than those they condemn.  They preach democracy while practising FASCISM - one could go on indefinitely discussing how deeply sick and twisted the United States are, for want of a better phrase "They are a GODLESS country".  If my country wasn't aligned with them it wouldn't sting so much, but like many other Countries, the USA has exported their sick culture here, manipulated our politicians and our policies all in an attempt to take over the world.  I look forward to Americas demise, as do many other billions of citizens who have suffered because of Americas Imperialistic Attitude towards the rest of the world.

Citing examples will make you seem more like an informed critic than a ranting lunatic or hardworking troll.  Noam never fails to pepper his talks liberally with verifiable facts about specific instances, including dates, names, etc.  That's what gives him his level headed appeal and respectability.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on August 19, 2012, 04:23:32 PM
Citing examples will make you seem more like an informed critic than a ranting lunatic or hardworking troll.  Noam never fails to pepper his talks liberally with verifiable facts about specific instances, including dates, names, etc.  That's what gives him his level headed appeal and respectability.
Are you fucking kidding, this is GETBIG if I was to quote facts of the infinite list of Shit America has been pulling for the past half century to get to the point where they are now, I would have to sit on my laptop 24/7.  I have tired of posting facts here on Getbig, if you truly doubt any of my tirade or accusations, look for yourself, I don't care.  You mentioned Noam Chomsky, stop being a lazy cun+ and read some of his works: Class Warfare, Necessary Illusions, Occupied Media, You are being lied to, Anarachism, marxism & the hope for the future, Hegemony or survival, Pirates and Emperors, Fateful Triangle, Year 501, The Conquest continue, The Prosperous few and the restless many, Keeping the Rabble in Line, Secrets, Lies and Democracy, What Uncles Sam really wants the list goes on and on of available material from Noam on what a POS the USA has become, Noam just too polite and also afraid to put it the way I do.



Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: King Shizzo on August 26, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
There is a force/power greater than our comprehension.  I have no doubt about this.  Something created everything.  


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: garebear on August 27, 2012, 02:34:15 AM
America has wronged the whole of humanity with their imperial expansionist interventionist genocidal foreign policies, it's illegal wars, it's destruction of democracy, it's disgusting use of propaganda, it's destruction of the legal system and justice, it's promotion of greed and immorality, it's lust for power and wealth at the expense of the disenfranchised and weak, it's complete disregard for human rights, it's stark hypocrisy, it's lack of compassion, empathy or regard for those they kill, rape and generally trample all over for reasons that can only be regarded as sociopathic, it's promotion of the elites and vilification of the poor, it's introduction of mainstream terrorism and fear to implement fascist polices and to top it all off it's overt covering up of it's atrocities by silencing whistle blowers and using the media to misinform and distract the public from the important issues and cover up there crimes.  Australians hate America, it's just our weak as piss politicians who have become puppets in Americas attempt to take over the world.  America has exported nothing but terror, hopelessness, fear, lies, propaganda and trash TV.  Fuck America.
If you're confused by these two little words, you've come to the right place. (Not that there aren't other right places.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's is a contraction for it is or it has.

Its is a possessive pronoun meaning, more or less, of it or belonging to it.

And there is absolutely, positively, no such word as its'.

A simple test
If you can replace it[']s in your sentence with it is or it has, then your word is it's; otherwise, your word is its.

Another test
Its is the neuter version of his and her. Try plugging her into your sentence where you think its belongs. If the sentence still works grammatically (if not logically) then your word is indeed its.

Examples
It's been good to know you. Contraction: it has
It's a bird! It's a plane! Contraction: it is

The dodo bird is known for its inability to fly. Possessive pronoun: its inability = the dodo bird's inability

HTH.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on September 06, 2012, 09:52:45 AM
FYI ~ I still believe in God. 


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: syntaxmachine on September 06, 2012, 11:37:31 AM
Are you fucking kidding, this is GETBIG if I was to quote facts of the infinite list of Shit America has been pulling for the past half century to get to the point where they are now, I would have to sit on my laptop 24/7.  I have tired of posting facts here on Getbig, if you truly doubt any of my tirade or accusations, look for yourself, I don't care.  You mentioned Noam Chomsky, stop being a lazy cun+ and read some of his works: Class Warfare, Necessary Illusions, Occupied Media, You are being lied to, Anarachism, marxism & the hope for the future, Hegemony or survival, Pirates and Emperors, Fateful Triangle, Year 501, The Conquest continue, The Prosperous few and the restless many, Keeping the Rabble in Line, Secrets, Lies and Democracy, What Uncles Sam really wants the list goes on and on of available material from Noam on what a POS the USA has become, Noam just too polite and also afraid to put it the way I do.


Chomsky's work on politics is really rather mundane and represents a recapitulation of Marxist theories of international politics. You can find a good explanation of such theories in a book like:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ydaChb9AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

They fill a nice gap in the political science literature, viz., the lack of any substantive attempt to measure the influence of corporations on public policy. But they have their problems and there are plenty of observations they cannot explain. Just because Chomsky writes and speaks with absolute confidence on the matter does not mean he is a prophet.

Chomsky's real insights are in linguistics and even philosophy. He interfaced with the big names in analytic philosophy of the 20th century (e.g., Quine, Putnam, Kripke) and knows more about the subject than many Phd's these days. Here is an interview where we get to see his analytic chops in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHS1NraVsAc


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Radical Plato on September 06, 2012, 06:35:54 PM
FYI ~ I still believe in God.  

So what! No one cares what you think.  Not even God!  God must get sick and tired of God Botherers swinging from his all-mighty Nutsack!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on September 07, 2012, 05:59:29 AM
So what! No one cares what you think.  Not even God!  God must get sick and tired of God Botherers swinging from his all-mighty Nutsack!

Have a blessed day E-Kul!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: OTHstrong on September 07, 2012, 06:45:03 AM
So what! No one cares what you think.  Not even God!  God must get sick and tired of God Botherers swinging from his all-mighty Nutsack!
Actually it is the opposite, no one cares what you think, you are viewed as a nut case around here and MOS is a quality poster  ;)


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Man of Steel on September 18, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Checked again today....I still believe in God.....a blessed day to all!


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: Thick Nick on September 18, 2012, 10:21:07 AM
America has wronged the whole of humanity with their imperial expansionist interventionist genocidal foreign policies, it's illegal wars, it's destruction of democracy, it's disgusting use of propaganda, it's destruction of the legal system and justice, it's promotion of greed and immorality, it's lust for power and wealth at the expense of the disenfranchised and weak, it's complete disregard for human rights, it's stark hypocrisy, it's lack of compassion, empathy or regard for those they kill, rape and generally trample all over for reasons that can only be regarded as sociopathic, it's promotion of the elites and vilification of the poor, it's introduction of mainstream terrorism and fear to implement fascist polices and to top it all off it's overt covering up of it's atrocities by silencing whistle blowers and using the media to misinform and distract the public from the important issues and cover up there crimes.  Australians hate America, it's just our weak as piss politicians who have become puppets in Americas attempt to take over the world.  America has exported nothing but terror, hopelessness, fear, lies, propaganda and trash TV.  Fuck America.

Wait... Australia? Bwahahahahahaha.... Bwauahahahahaha

Seriously if not for your alliance with the US, you, France, Canada and all these other piss poor excuses for countries would be flying black Muslim flags right now you fucking ingrate. Go get your shine box.


Title: Re: Who believes in God?
Post by: MP on September 18, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
it's destruction of democracy

Riiiigggght. What is your idea of a "democracy"? Venezuela?