So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.
The atheist asked who is God?
God is our creator the master of all creation.
We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.
God is the first and last: eternal
Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...
He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.
God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.
With Him is all knowledge
God revealed this to us through consecutive messengers and prophets.Of course he did.
Of course he did.
And you are never allowed to question that.
I do. Is it coming out of someone trust worthy or someone corrupted? Someone seeking personal gains or wealth of this world? Has what they predicted come true or has it failed that test? A lot of people have claimed to be prophets and messengers.Right. No one is profiting from you not being allowed to question your religion and following it blindly.
God revealed this to us through consecutive messengers and prophets.
We haven't even established what the term "God" means, much less that he exists. Let's not jump the gun and go to prophets and messengers.
God is our creator. That is the first truth we accept as believers.Congratulations on putting tradition before logic.
"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)
"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)
Your response was "That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot. "
So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.As a Christian I agree with everything except that God the Father is male as is God the Son in Jesus Christ. I don't recall if verses speak to the God the Holy Spirit as male or not....worth a look actually.
The atheist asked who is God?
God is our creator the master of all creation.
We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.
God is the first and last: eternal
Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...
He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.
God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.
With Him is all knowledge
God is our creator.
That is the first truth we accept as believers.
"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)
"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)
Your response was "That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot. "
That says nothing at all. And it assumes a whole lot: namely that we were created. There's no proof of that.
But is it rational to accept something you cannot define or understand?I understand it, I defined it. You don't accept my understanding or my definition.
You're quoting a book that's, supposedly, Allah's word as proof that Allah exists. That won't work. The book has no validity until you can define what Allah is.
First you define what God is - providing specific attributes that allow us to distinguish God from, say, a potato, or an alien from the 5th dimension. You must do this without resorting to the texts that God supposedly authored. Because you must prove that God authored them. And before you can prove that you must first indepedently define what "god" means and prove that the entity in question exists.
You say there isn't proof. I say otherwise. Now what?
I understand it, I defined it. You don't accept my understanding or my definition.
I did define who God is. However you reject God and you reject the qur'an because you don't believe in God to begin with.
God is one and unique.
Eternal.
God does not resemble His creation.
So comparing God to His creation such as a potato or even a '5th dimension alien' is not God.
And again I restate God is our creator.
Or what is your alternative explanation? This?:
(http://sawiggins.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/evolution.jpg)
So in a nutshell you believe that we are not created by God/intelligent designer. Rather you believe that we were monkies that 'evolved'. Correct?
FYI the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning and was created. Big bang? No not porno.
I do not believe we were created no. My belief is that life was a chance occurrence; that it flourished, and that we have evolved.
Okay now we are unravelling the mystery that dwelt in this atheist's faith.
YOUR BELIEF is that it was a chance occurence and 'somehow' magically flourished and then magically 'evolved'. I don't find your belief rational at all. Okay so this is where we differ and we should focus on.
Are we now? Ooh!
The difference between my belief and yours is that mine is rooted in observable evidence, science and logic and that I remain open to the possibility that I am wrong and to being convinced that I am wrong. Yours is rooted in magic and superstition and you refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong.
I'm thinking that perhaps you didn't unravel quite what you thought you unraveled. ;D
Well in case you are wrong, maybe you should change your faith in chance occurences and accidents and maybe consider a creator?
You are open to possibilities right?
So you are open to changing your belief/faith through "observable evidence, science and logic".
Okay. Who said I don't observe or rationalize? Use my observations as evidence? Who says I don't use or know about science? Who says I don't follow logic? From a young age before ever touching a book of religion my first books were on astronomy, biology, physics. And in fact I love deductive reasoning and logic.
To me evolution is nothing but magic and superstition. No different than Xmen, spiderman, superman, wonder woman FAAAR from reality or what is observable. Citing imaginary numbers such as '100 million years' or 'millions of years ago' is not proof. Neither are pieces of bone God knows where from (hah pun intended)
An ignorant bedouin may see a tent, and think and realize it had an origin, maker and an owner. He will observe the world around him and think, the world must have had an origin, a maker and an owner. Sure that may be primitive observation, but it is observation, people don't magically come to believe in things.
Evidence?
How about DNA?
How about our reproductive organs, male and female?
They to me are evidence of a creator. Shall we go on?
Oh... Remember just a few lines before this when you asked "Who says I don't use or know about science?" I submit that you answered that question yourself. If you consider evolution "magic" and "superstition" then I can only conclude that you know little to nothing about science in general and evolution in particular.
How about it? I don't see "Copyright © Allah" anywhere in the DNA. Laboratory experiments have showed that the proteins behind the four base pairs can be created from raw materials without any divine intervention.
So you "feel" that genitals indicate that we were created. Alas those feelings don't necessarily reflect reality. Can you provide any actual, concrete, incontrovertible evidence of design? I'll bet you can't.
Yes I do, because it to me is not science.
Even if there are classes and majors on evolution studies... there are also classes and majors on genetic engineering keyword ENGINEERING. It takes a mover, a maker, an engineer, an intelligent designer. Science is a tool to observe something, prove something and repeat that something.
You learn all about DNA, but you did not make it to begin with. You then prove that you can alter it or recreate it even. But then arrogantly say naaah not a creature it was just chance but what WE are doing is engineering DUUUH we are intelligent evolved monkies!
Darwinism and evolution theory is the faith of many atheists I am sure, but it is to me not science at all but mere conjecture and wishful thinking in arrogance of denying God but sticking to it as it is your ONLY faith you can depend on as an atheist.
Observing a few pieces of bones and organizing them in a certain manner then claiming they must have 'evolved' over millions of years into each other (eg: species) is not science to me at all.
Windows was created by microsoft. Some alien coming to our planet and seeing windows 3.1, windows 95, windows 2000, Xp, 7, etc... will not say HMMM it must have evolved over millions of years. Or even a porsche 911 or a mitsubishi evolution (lol), these people if they saw our remnants but no humans wouldn't go AAAH HAA evolution !
Science is able to observe the raw ingredients around us and how they react, what they are, great. It is not proving any such process of 'evolution' of creatures basically accidentally popping out of no where. Sea creatures coming to land, land creatures flying. Etc...
(http://www.klangart.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/evolution_fishjoke.jpg#evolution%20jokes)
Hence my xmen/spiderman commentary. That's how unsophisticated to me it is. Magic and wishful thinking
Right so you understand the raw materials. So they all magically came together to form a human being or x number of other creatures or their components?
Look look! This forum magically compiled its' own code and came on the internet!
Yes, because if it weren't for the perfect balance of things in the body (eg: hormones, nutrition, etc...) and healthy perfectly functional organs (both unique in each gender). You and I my friend would not exist, and fertility clinics of today would be out of business.
Did darwin suddenly go AH evolution, I don't need to procreate anymore. I'm just going to sit around or walk in the sun and I will EVOLVE
This line of reasoning just flat out fails... so since we can now do genetic engineering, this somehow makes evolution impossible?
You are misusing the word "faith." Faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence.No I believe I am using it quite correctly. Your darwinian atheist faith has not proved to me anything nor shown me any evidence besides children's cartoons, broken bones and broken promises of millions of years of evidence ::)
Instead let's assume that a magical sky creature (which popped out of nowhere) put things together... yeah, that's a good idea. Let's roll with that!
If you agree with everything I said you would be aware what the first commandment instructs, just like the qur'an that nothing compares to God in the creation or as in the bible it's described, neither the earth, heaven or water. Jesus is comparable to humans. Jesus is a human.
God is not the creation nor in his creation. The later of which is called pantheism. Believing that God physically 'dwells' in His creation. Certain idolators would say such things of idols. And hindus would describe God in the creation a belief in pantheism not monotheism.
This is not the teachings of Jesus yet again.. but the teachings of later Christians... you are not doing service to this thread by bringing exclusively christian beliefs that someone will simply argue with as I was arguing with you in the other thread about the verses that indicate Jesus is not God and get ridicule for citing that God is a man.
Furthermore saying God is male, is your own words. God never uttered such thing. That would mean God has a male reproductive organ... God CREATED genders... God has no gender. You are being deluded yet again by Pauline/church teachings, not Jesus' own teachings or whats said in the scriptures... again saying God is a man when Jesus said no such thing and kept calling towards the same God of Moses, God of Abraham, etc... The one and only. Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one.
Science merely is able to disprove false deities, but it does not disprove God.
If you knew the Holy Spirit in your life you'd understand. I'm not speaking of the angel Gabriel either.
An atheist telling me I don't know anything because I am not putting my faith in his belief :) How stereotypical. Like a child throwing a tantrum at his mom for taking away his toys.
Clearly I don't understand it because I don't believe it ::)
Oooh pretty pictures!
Oh so you are talking about possibilities and the impossible? Wow, your faith in evolution is that weak? You certainly are not affirming my faith in evolution just providing me faith away from it :)
Just ironic, that the one that's created, is basically saying hey we can create but no we weren't created :)
“Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief.
Or are with them the treasures of your Lord? Or are they the tyrants with the authority to do as they like?”[al-Toor 52:35-37]
No I believe I am using it quite correctly.
Your darwinian atheist faith has not proved to me anything nor shown me any evidence besides children's cartoons, broken bones and broken promises of millions of years of evidence ::)
Except that's not how it happened. We will not roll with that.
You talk about raw materials of the DNA in a LAB, an EXPERIMENT that HUMANS conduct with proteins. GREAT! So that argument itself works against you. You are intervening and using your INTELLECT behind the process. The only thing you are not in command of is the raw materials. Yes a provision to us from God. Or no, the universe just magically 'came to be' by an accident and everything in it.
Since we chose to talk about sexual reproductive organs.
You and I would seize to exist if anything goes wrong with them. They have to be WHOLE and COMPLETE.
Now lets put two and two together. You conduct some lame experiment in a lab with proteins... we have genetic engineering.
We have humans who are whole. First and foremost two genders COMPLETELY seperate from one another with totally unique sexual organs.
Explain me this? If even once in your imaginary tale of evolution one organ failed we'd be doomed.
Now explain to me how this organ came to be in both genders, how the genders came to be...?
And now explain me this... The CONSTRUCT of the human being including the organs had to be conceived prior.
Which would require genetic engineering and a process of reproduction. BOTH have to be complete, you cannot have a human with no reproductive system then magically develop a reproductive system.
And the concept of a reproductive system itself in both seperate genders is nothing without the male or female human.
Therefore BOTH must be whole. Very unique and intricate, beautiful at that.
Cut off any component from that process and you have nothing.
First you define what God is - providing specific attributes that allow us to distinguish God from, say, a potato, or an alien from the 5th dimension. You must do this without resorting to the texts that God supposedly authored. Because you must prove that God authored them. And before you can prove that you must first indepedently define what "god" means and prove that the entity in question exists.
LOL@ "but you dont understand it", "you dont know anything about it". You're sounding exactly what you accuse theists of and trust me I've gone through this numerous times with atheists the outcome is always the same :) It's just plain amusement to my ears. When someone disbelieves in your faith you tell them "no no, you dont understand", "you are clueless". Before finally resorting to childish name calling, cynicism and sarcasm. Oh wait you already have numerous times until now! I am losing faith in you :) Seems like I am discovering how crumbling your basis of what you believe in actually is and how that which you accuse of others applies quite well to you. You come on self glorifying, know it all, superior, yet in fact all you have is miserly beliefs that cover your atheism and uncertainty.
A religious person with more ... capacious intelligence than what you're dealing with here would dispute the idea that he must provide a strict definition at the outset, pointing to a variety of investigations that do not proceed in this fashion.
If you read Plato's dialogues, a variety of important philosophical concepts that remain with us to this day (e.g., truth, knowledge, justice) are investigated, an adequate definition sought after in each work. Yet, that definition typically does not materialize. But that doesn't necessarily hinder the investigation or indicate that there is nothing there to investigate. Even if you think philosophy is utter shit, there are other examples to draw upon, e.g., linguistics' use of 'meaning' to do explanatory work despite nobody knowing precisely what the word, well, means.
Alternative methodologies include providing an ostensive definition -- basically, pointing to an example of a thing -- or by highlighting just a few essential properties of a thing. For example, it is awfully difficult to provide a precise definition of the mental state 'pain,' yet we seem to know it via acquaintance and can identify some of its salient features. Just as we have a faculty for sensations, the religious will say, there is a similar sense divinatus that allows us to experience 'God'. And they will probably continue the analogy with sensations further, indicating God too is indefinable yet known via acquaintance.
LOL earlier you were arguing about evolution theory and genetic engineering comparison and how it is not 'impossible'.
Yet you ridicule that God creating the universe in 6 days/periods whatever it may be exactly as impossible and worthy of your sarcasm? Funny funny indeed. So many things we built today in the past were deemed as 'impossible'. I don't find anything to ridicule for God our creator to be able to create the whole universe in six days or six periods (periods whatever that means, not necessarily 24 hours)
LOL@ "but you dont understand it", "you dont know anything about it". You're sounding exactly what you accuse theists of and trust me I've gone through this numerous times with atheists the outcome is always the same :) It's just plain amusement to my ears. When someone disbelieves in your faith you tell them "no no, you dont understand", "you are clueless". Before finally resorting to childish name calling, cynicism and sarcasm. Oh wait you already have numerous times until now! I am losing faith in you :) Seems like I am discovering how crumbling your basis of what you believe in actually is and how that which you accuse of others applies quite well to you. You come on self glorifying, know it all, superior, yet in fact all you have is miserly beliefs that cover your atheism and uncertainty.
Do you not see the paradox of this faith of yours?
A human reproduces and only persists to exist via the availability of a male and a female with fully functional sexual reproductive systems aka procreation.
The genetic code exists so that through this process we have an outcome creature. A human? Or lets even say some other creature, but lets focus on humans. With a? Reproductive system!
So we can't just have a human without the reproductive system. Nor can we have the reproductive system and then a human coming out of no where! Kind of the like the chicken and the egg argument..
To me the chicken and egg argument is a no brainer as a theist. God created the chicken and designed a reproductive system for it, not one or the other but both.
The bottom line is. Humans WITH their respective reproductive systems, male or female... need to have this and need all their components in place. You do not have a human that 'evolves' to develop a penis or develop a vagina magically from being an asexual creature for example. It has to be whole.
Likewise with all the other systems in the body. No liver? Die. No heart? No blood, no life? No brain, a vegetable. No muscles, not going anywhere? No lungs, no oxygen for any organ or blood which passes through it.
Also you don't just stuff a male with estrogens and testosterone blockers and saw off their dick and they become a female with a vagina. Likewise with females, you don't just jack them up with AIs and testosterone and hope a penis grows with a reproductive system?
We are male or female, interfering in this process in any shape or form makes humans or any creature with a reproductive system seize to exist.
Catching my drift? All this has to be in place or there's nothing but components.
So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.
The atheist asked who is God?
God is our creator the master of all creation.
We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.
God is the first and last: eternal
Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...
He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.
God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.
With Him is all knowledge
I read the scriptures and I know enough about what Jesus said. I go by that. For divine guidance, we are to follow the prophets and messengers. Not mere sayings of ordinary men who have ulterior motives. We are able to think, but not conjure up our own false beliefs. Not paradoxical, contradictory teachings of the church that clearly go against the very fundamental sayings of Jesus using scripture. You bring no proof from the scriptures when you make blank statements like that. Keep it in the trinity/bible thread. You still are ignoring the verses where Jesus talks about not his will but the will of the father (God). And Jesus saying he doesn't know something (the hour) but only God does.
God does not contradict, mislead or misguide. Men do. Jesus was a mighty messenger of God or as the bible even says "a prophet". Yes the bible, that was one of the quotes from that video you questioned. You are the one lying against God and lying against Jesus. You are not doing yourself or others justice doing that.
So next time you say no Jesus was not a prophet read your bible:
The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."Matthew 21:11
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"
Luke 24:19
In fact there are so many verses in the bible where Jesus is called a prophet :) I am posting two just to prove a poin
"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Verily! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was [revealed] before me in the Torah"
The noble Qur'an, Al-Saf(61):6
And in this thread you are not doing any monotheist service when you say God is a human being or 'male' (gender is something God created and certainly man is something God created). Nor is any of that pantheistic or trinitarian stuff helping you. Jesus certainly was a monotheist, not a pantheist or polytheist or trinitheist or whatever you want to dub it.
Like I said, science disproves in the absolute any false deities, but it does not disprove God. Saying God is a man, science and rational thought will prove it false quite easily.
At least Jesus Christ offers a message of peace, forgiveness, love and is against stoning or killing people who break the 'laws'.
The New Testament represented a more modern mentality due to the influence of the Greeks and Romans.
The European mentality is to bow to no-one, have freedom and think for ourselves as based on the Athenian model of Democracy which the Romans followed during their Republic and made their greatest gains.
That is why we conquered the world and created the worlds greatest inventions.
To blindly follow a religion is not to think for yourself and is a form of mental enslavement.
The Middle East has still not got past much of the Dark Ages phase.
Blabla you don't know what you're talking about you dont know science, you dont know evolution.
Bottom line we come from monkeys but you dont understand how or why but its not really monkeys but it is monkeys.
^The point is you can't argue against your own scripture saying something and then you saying something completely different, clearly. The bottom line is, you are following Paul's creed and as he said 'his own gospel' and what the church enforced.
If anyone reads the bible it's quite clear Jesus was a man. Alot of the verses that christians emotionally boast about are forgeries like the one about the 'three in heaven'.
Likewise you see someone in the posts mentioned how "Jesus was against the stoning of the adulterer".. Yet if only that person knew that that story was FABRICATED and found to be inserted about 400 years after Jesus. Clearly to enforce a certain view against the law.
Yet then you have Jesus talking about the law, tlaking about the commandments, saying he is not here to destroy it etc...
You mean the more 'modern' pagans. And you realize the story about the adulteress not being stoned is a fabrication right and a far later insertion like 400 years after?
What will Jesus say on his return:
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' Matthew 7:23
A similar thing is stated about Jesus in the qur'an. I can't recollect the verse right now off by heart.
The qur'an stuck to the original message of the prophets and continued off where Jesus left off. Ignoring indeed the church and paul's pagan inventions about Jesus
Lastly in respons to your quote. The bible RARELY talks about God's mercy or love. Are you kidding me? This is a modern phenomena post ww2 where the church was losing followers so they reformed and changed the approach of you're going to rot in hell if you dont accept Jesus as God to Jesus love you, Jesus is peace, Jesus is love, Jesus is mercy. Etc... which the scriptures contradict.
The qur'an actually pretty much solely focuses on the mercy and forgiveness of God. Almost everything is spoken of in terms of mercy and compassion that God has for us. God's 99 names and attributes in the qur'an illustrate that. The forgiving. The merciful. The compassionate. The loving. Etc...
Even when we begin something or pray we say in the name of God, the merciful, the most compassionate
The greeting of the believers is PEACE, salaam. How did Jesus greet people? SHALOM! Same thing.
However it is totally untrue what you claim if you but read the bible or a bit of even recent history. This whole phenomena of selling christianity as 'peace love mercy' is a new phenomena. Less than a hundred years ago it was all about you will rot in hell you infidel if you dont accept Jesus. Seriously.
I think you need to brush up on history, cause your statements clearly show your lack of know-how on the subject. The reason Europe 'spread' is because of constant bloodshed everywhere not just in Europe. Europe was in the 'dark ages' for over a thousand years.
Muslims on the other hand were prosperous for over a thousand years and wherever they went the same was true for the locals.
The crusades just slowed down progress and caused bloodshed. Eventually colonialism took over the crusades and as the british and french made a pact to never allow a caliphate to ever resurface or muslims to progress, they did a fine job of dividing the muslim world for their 'great game'.
I keep forgetting what this document is called signed by the british and french to never allow muslims to progress and to always strive to divide them.
It is quite essential to understanding the muslim world of the past say even 100 years. Nothing but puppets, dictators, military rulers and lack of islam. Only in the very recent many years has there been an awakening and as such Islam is even spreading across europe and the majority of it's converts are in fact white university educated women.
You miss the whole point. That's why you are just a fraud to me.
You keep boasting about evidence? What evidence the fossil record laughs at you.
We have whole species appear and dissapear. The end. There is no 'transitional forms' only your PERCEPTION where you will present a certain creature then say somewhere in between it became this.
That to me is as idiotic as the greek mythologies of gods and their drawings. Sorry.
You dont have me convinced.
I can use science to understand the cell, understand the human body, understand the various microscopic elements that make up all these processes. But I will not conclude that it came out of coincidence. It's pure retardation.
Keep to your blind atheist faith :) You as you accuse theists, actually are the one that has nothing substantial only talk talk talk. No evidence, nothing. Empty.
^The point is you can't argue against your own scripture saying something and then you saying something completely different, clearly. The bottom line is, you are following Paul's creed and as he said 'his own gospel' and what the church enforced.
If anyone reads the bible it's quite clear Jesus was a man. Alot of the verses that christians emotionally boast about are forgeries like the one about the 'three in heaven'.
Likewise you see someone in the posts mentioned how "Jesus was against the stoning of the adulterer".. Yet if only that person knew that that story was FABRICATED and found to be inserted about 400 years after Jesus. Clearly to enforce a certain view against the law.
Yet then you have Jesus talking about the law, tlaking about the commandments, saying he is not here to destroy it etc...
You mean the more 'modern' pagans. And you realize the story about the adulteress not being stoned is a fabrication right and a far later insertion like 400 years after?
What will Jesus say on his return:
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' Matthew 7:23
A similar thing is stated about Jesus in the qur'an. I can't recollect the verse right now off by heart.
The qur'an stuck to the original message of the prophets and continued off where Jesus left off. Ignoring indeed the church and paul's pagan inventions about Jesus
Lastly in respons to your quote. The bible RARELY talks about God's mercy or love. Are you kidding me? This is a modern phenomena post ww2 where the church was losing followers so they reformed and changed the approach of you're going to rot in hell if you dont accept Jesus as God to Jesus love you, Jesus is peace, Jesus is love, Jesus is mercy. Etc... which the scriptures contradict.
The qur'an actually pretty much solely focuses on the mercy and forgiveness of God. Almost everything is spoken of in terms of mercy and compassion that God has for us. God's 99 names and attributes in the qur'an illustrate that. The forgiving. The merciful. The compassionate. The loving. Etc...
Even when we begin something or pray we say in the name of God, the merciful, the most compassionate
The greeting of the believers is PEACE, salaam. How did Jesus greet people? SHALOM! Same thing.
However it is totally untrue what you claim if you but read the bible or a bit of even recent history. This whole phenomena of selling christianity as 'peace love mercy' is a new phenomena. Less than a hundred years ago it was all about you will rot in hell you infidel if you dont accept Jesus. Seriously.
I think you need to brush up on history, cause your statements clearly show your lack of know-how on the subject. The reason Europe 'spread' is because of constant bloodshed everywhere not just in Europe. Europe was in the 'dark ages' for over a thousand years.
Muslims on the other hand were prosperous for over a thousand years and wherever they went the same was true for the locals.
The crusades just slowed down progress and caused bloodshed. Eventually colonialism took over the crusades and as the british and french made a pact to never allow a caliphate to ever resurface or muslims to progress, they did a fine job of dividing the muslim world for their 'great game'.
I keep forgetting what this document is called signed by the british and french to never allow muslims to progress and to always strive to divide them.
It is quite essential to understanding the muslim world of the past say even 100 years. Nothing but puppets, dictators, military rulers and lack of islam. Only in the very recent many years has there been an awakening and as such Islam is even spreading across europe and the majority of it's converts are in fact white university educated women.
This whole phenomena of selling christianity as 'peace love mercy' is a new phenomena. Less than a hundred years ago it was all about you will rot in hell you infidel if you dont accept Jesus. Seriously.
Right and that's why its one of the fastest growing religions and the largest number of converts are white university educated women :)
You're such a tool :)
That if Islam is 'the ultimate oppression of women' then why is that women and at that university educated white women are flocking to Islam.
What's your amazing atheist refutation of this ::)
You are a bunch of clowns. Domestic violence is present in all cultures and islam is against it. Domestic violence and rape are at high rates in north america but the media rarely addresses them or labels them as a result of 'christianity' or 'atheism' but its very there.
I find it amazing when some of you say "you mozzlmes abuse yer womenz" I am like oh? I wasn't aware, my wife and I love each other lol. Likewise with my parents since becoming muslims theyve actually become better to one another.
That if Islam is 'the ultimate oppression of women' then why is that women and at that university educated white women are flocking to Islam.
What's your amazing atheist refutation of this ::)
You are a bunch of clowns. Domestic violence is present in all cultures and islam is against it. Domestic violence and rape are at high rates in north america but the media rarely addresses them or labels them as a result of 'christianity' or 'atheism' but its very there.
I find it amazing when some of you say "you mozzlmes abuse yer womenz" I am like oh? I wasn't aware, my wife and I love each other lol. Likewise with my parents since becoming muslims theyve actually become better to one another.
I think you are ranting trying to dissuade people from your fradulent and weak beliefs by falsely attacking others preemtively.
You are citing your knowledge based on what the news says, rather than what history or academics have to say about Islam. Ones that are intellectually honest.
Remember that merely what 50 some years ago women in america were fighting for the right to their own property. Islam gave this in the 7th century.
You are contradicting yourself over and over again talking about not to generalize a group or not to believe that a certain aspect of certain individuals paints the whole as that way. Yet you do it when it comes to Islam.
You can cite all kinds of crimes by individual muslims but you cannot cite the same about islam.
Islam came to liberate women and respect women not hurt them. The point is yes many white educated women are flocking to islam. If they were so 'stupid' to go and oppress themselves theyd be running the other way.
You're nothing but a fraud
That's why they acid thrown in their faces and called a 'whore' if they don't wear veils/ninja masks and don't cover up their body.
Women are free to walk around as they wish, which they can do in a western society.
In our societies we believe in freedom.
Are you mentally challenged? Please find me in the quran where it is advocated to throw acid on women's face?
How much longer will you keep trying to lie against islam? If cultural practices of a certain people advocate such evil, and they happen to have muslims among them doing this vile thing, does that mean it is from Islam? Absolutely not. Christians and Hindus have been doing these acts in these regions. It is the demented culture, not islam.
You believe in 'freedom'. You believe in hypocricy more like it. You don't know what real freedom is.
'Freedom' means someone from some religious group/government not telling me how to live my life.
'Freedom' according to Moslems means living according to the Koran or getting publicly executed if they break some of the 'laws'.
There is no freedom of speech, freedom of thought or freedom of expression under Islamic rule.
Moslems don't even allow statues of human beings, so they limit freedom of art as well.
They are ashamed of the human body and want people to cover themselves up because of their anti-human views.
I think you are ranting trying to dissuade people from your fradulent and weak beliefs by falsely attacking others preemtively.
You are citing your knowledge based on what the news says, rather than what history or academics have to say about Islam. Ones that are intellectually honest.
Remember that merely what 50 some years ago women in america were fighting for the right to their own property. Islam gave this in the 7th century.
You are contradicting yourself over and over again talking about not to generalize a group or not to believe that a certain aspect of certain individuals paints the whole as that way. Yet you do it when it comes to Islam.
You can cite all kinds of crimes by individual muslims but you cannot cite the same about islam.
Islam came to liberate women and respect women not hurt them.
The point is yes many white educated women are flocking to islam. If they were so 'stupid' to go and oppress themselves theyd be running the other way.
You're nothing but a fraud
We are not forcing you to follow what we believe, only advising. You on the other hand would if you could subjugate all religions regardless to be secular/atheist.
You still don't know what 'freedom' is because if you think you are free think again. You are a slave to the capitalist work horse. You are a slave to television. You are a slave to the dollar. You are a slave to your desires.
Freedom to do narcotic drugs, fornicate, abuse women left and right as disposables in one night stands, these are the freedoms you may enjoy. We don't see that as freedom but slavery in a different tone.
Wrong but keep deluding yourself. You think America is the steping stone of freedom of speech or freedom of thought or freedom of expression? Look at television. It's quite the opposite.
No we are not ashamed of the human body, God is only glorified by his creation and the beauty of the human body. However as to not be wild animals, we believe in dignity of both men and women. All religious people of the past, be they jew or christian covered themselves and their heads. This is fact.
Modesty is something that the so called modern world lacks. You call it freedom when a woman is made a commodity on television, movies and media, basically a sexual object for perverse men, all eyes to see. We do not see eye to eye on this.
Our women cover themselves because they want their dignity, respect and honor. Not for their physical appearance, but for their faith and intellect.
Why do you not attack christian nuns or orthodox chritsians who cover their hair? Even Jewish women cover themselves traditional but israel is built upon secular ethnocentric values not judaism. Even hindu women cover their hair. Even sikhs cover their head. Even zoroastrians cover their hair. The list goes on.
You are absolutely an ignoramus and a fraud. Why? Because you are lying and misinforming.
If you look at what Islam teaches and you were intellectually honest you would realize what you keep citing examples of people following cultural and tribal customs that are in fact contary to the teachings of islam. You also don't show the same 'passion' for Hindus or Christians or Budhists or Atheists who do what you try to associate Islam with.
Yes I call those false academics as intellectually dishonest when they COMPLETELY DEVOID of any understanding of the qur'an start chery picking verses without even reading the qur'an and conjruing up their own wishful meaning when it is devoid of any common understanding or accepted islamic exegesis.
Ulterior motives, like the ones you have that of hate is what's behind it.
My only motive is to shed light on these lies that so many seem to be pushing forward.
I understand the media has a big role. Hollywood certainly did uneducate the masses in the 80s and 90s. The newsroom has become the latest action flick for the masses of sheeple such as yourself that do not realize that certain people are playing on your ignorance.
I wouldn't want to subjugate anyone. I believe that people need to make their own decisions. If their decision is to believe in a religion, that's fine by me, as long as they don't involve me.
Poetic words. There are some parallels, but equivocating them isn't accurate. Consider work, for example. Is it "slavery" to need to work? No I don't think so. If people didn't work, most of them would still need to, at a minimum, eat. Without money they'd have to either produce their own food or beg; both of those activities would them become, de facto work.
I guess I can sympathize, at least, partially with what you're saying. But in my view ones' freedom ends where anothers' begins. In other words, in my view you are free to engage in sexual relations with other consenting adults, but you aren't "free" to rape them. But, ultimately, freedom means the freedom to do stupid things too.
The freedom of speech guaranteed to Americans under the Constitution doesn't mean that television stations are required to give everyone a platform. The Constitution binds the Government, not television stations. If Sean Hannity or Rachel Maddow want to promote only positions that agree with their viewpoint and suppress all other positions on their programs, that is between them and their employers.
That something was done in the past doesn't mean it was a good idea or that it should be done in the future. I don't think that not wearing a hat, scarf or other head/face covering reduces people to animals, and you haven't proven that it does and I would argue that respect and honor are earned - not worn.
I'll agree with that as well, although I suspect that what you and I consider "acceptable" varies. But, the question that I have is this: if you were in charge, would you require that women cover up, or not wear, say, miniskirts, or tiny bikinis?
I don't think you're qualified to speak for all Muslim women. At best, you're generalizing - something you attacked me for, allegedly, doing. Perhaps some women cover themselves by choice (whether their underlying reasons are religious or not) and that's perfectly fine. But do all Muslim women feel that way? It's exceedingly unlikely. And yet, in some societies today, no women go outside uncovered. Why? Because it is a crime to go outside of the house without being covered up. Do you think that it's reasonable to force women to wear a veil or men to wear a beard?
Sure, there are many religions that would customarily cover their head. Does a supreme being - whether you call it Allah or God or whatever - really care whether you cover your head? Or whether you like bacon? These seem like awfully petty things, to me.
Nuns make a decision to become nuns. The same with Jewish men. I don't think Orthodox Christians cover their hair. In many cases, women in Muslim countries don't have the choice. In Afghanistan, the hijab was mandatory and in Iran a headscarf is required when out in public and there are penalties for being outside without one. Would some of the Afghani and Iranian women choose to wear one even in the absence of laws requiring them to? Probably. But right now, they don't even have the choice.
We personally do not believe in idolatry and no we do not build idols as forms of art for ourselves. Muslims allowed christians to hold their crucifixes and objects. But we personally do not believe in them as we are against all forms of idolatry or things that may lead to idolatry. There are other ways to be creative other than sculpting idols.
No one is involving you, but you are the one attacking a religion of 2 billion people (When I kept saying 1.5 billion that was when I last checked statistics when I became Muslim like ten years ago).
If you were in an Islamic caliphate or even these degenerate secular dictatorships where Muslims live, no one would force you to become Muslim. I lived in these secular dictatorship countries and I didn't become Muslim. In fact no one even approached me to teach me about Islam which upsets me now. Although I came to appreciate these people without really knowing much about their faith but seeing their conduct and understanding their suffering.
You completely misunderstood what I meant. The whole construct of western society is slavery you really don't know what freedom is. The whole life style is pure slavery to the desires and consumerism. It is a society of depression and suffering. Anti-depressants and anxiety. Panic and fear.
In a nutshell. Today America takes away civil liberties and touts hate speech as free speech.
A society such as the UK has cameras EVERYWHERE, that's not freedom either. You don't realize that most of these well outspoken western nations like the UK, US, France are hypocrites in the least and at worst a prison like society.
Homosexuality was done thousands of years ago and apparently its good today?
Running around naked with leaf clothing with your butt showing was okay thousands of years ago and apparently its wise today too?
It's not progress, it's regress.
Every society has a code of conduct. Your society finds it acceptable to have nudists, microskirts and drunkards on the street at late hours after clubs. It's corruption of society. Exploitation. Like I said again, you don't know what freedom is. You are deluding yourself with people being able to be vain as 'freedom'
You are again being ignorant repeating news narrative.
Orthodox women cover their hair too, i have orthodox blood/family.
Yes God wants us to be modest and with dignified conduct not like unintelligent and irrational wild animals.
The whole uncovering yourself and being naked is western influenced pop culture phenomena. Traditionally all nations had a code of conduct and modesty. Western values basically teach anything goes as long as you fulfill your desires.
Lastly don't you find it funny that a nation like France bans hijab and niqab to 'liberate women' while Muslim women are subjected to this as 'criminals' for wearing their coverings.
A society such as the UK has cameras EVERYWHERE, that's not freedom either. You don't realize that most of these well outspoken western nations like the UK, US, France are hypocrites in the least and at worst a prison like society.
Orthodox women cover their hair too, i have orthodox blood/family. As did and still do catholics in Rome who attend mass. Just look it up yourself. The bible endorses it as well.
Bro seriously you are worthless. I won't bother responding this caca of writing of yours.
And just to conclude criticizing and questioning is one thing. Disrespecting is a whole other thing.
You can't seem to differentiate between hate speech and free speech. You can't seem to differentiate between disresecpting/slandering/libel vs criticizing/questioning. You can't seem to fathom this. I will not waste my time further speaking directly with you.
You run merely on a circular power of deception, misleading fraud in your arguments. You are actually not sincere so I am indeed wasting my time on you. Have a nice day.
Odd that you bring the UK into this dialogue. If anything the UK has been not just tolerant but ludicrously supporting of its muslim population. Maybe you can visit Bradford and you'll see how "hostile" it is to muslims.
Not to mention the recent case where a woman was prevented from wearing a cross at her workplace, but had this also included the hijab who knows what sort of bloody protests we would have seen.
Maybe more in the Middle East (where often christian minorities get discriminated or attacked), not so much in other parts of the world. If anything it is mostly old women that wear a scarf and that does not appear to be strictly religious.
Bro seriously you are worthless. I won't bother responding this caca of writing of yours.
And just to conclude criticizing and questioning is one thing. Disrespecting is a whole other thing.
You can't seem to differentiate between hate speech and free speech. You can't seem to differentiate between disresecpting/slandering/libel vs criticizing/questioning. You can't seem to fathom this. I will not waste my time further speaking directly with you.
You run merely on a circular power of deception, misleading fraud in your arguments. You are actually not sincere so I am indeed wasting my time on you. Have a nice day.
Muslims are attacked all the time in the UK. Ever hear of the EDL? Muslamics?
Here's an interview with a getbigger EDL member:
Remix:
My family lived there as christians we didn't get attacked. Stop relying on news brainwashing. The media is a propaganda political tool in the west, not a means of education, rather uneducation.
My uncle lived there for 30 years. Still not muslim his daughter was born there and she's not muslim.
Copts for instance have political intents, just like that moron and his lackeys who made that homosexual porno 'innoscence of muslims'. Yes we find it disgusting and insulting. They are the ones that want to stir up violence and political turmoil. They exploit the ignorance of people.
And 'old women mostly' why because these orthodox women are abandoning their faith and embracing western values of sexualization.
Muslims are attacked all the time in the UK. Ever hear of the EDL? Muslamics?
And 'old women mostly' why because these orthodox women are abandoning their faith and embracing western values of sexualization.
(http://www.theodora.com/wfb/photos/afghanistan/bamyan_buddha_statue_destruction_afghanistan_photo_cnn.jpg)
Perhaps one of the ways "to be creative other than sculpting idols" is to destroy?
"The Taliban had said the huge figures, carved into sandstone cliffs in Bamiyan city more than 1,500 years ago when Afghanistan was a seat of Buddhism, are "false idols" and must be destroyed in line with Islamic laws."
And also, when the Japanese sent envoys to try to either cover up or remove the statues (instead of the "civilized acts" of staging world wide violent protests, raiding embassies and killing people), "not only their proposals were rejected outright by the Taliban but the regime called Buddhism as a "Void Religion" and asked the Japanese to convert to Islam instead"
Such tolerance..
Buddhists dissapeared from Afghanistan. They were gone by the 11th century. Muslims do not worship idols and therefore destroyed the idol.
lol they don't predate creation or the creator. Buddha himself was not an idol worshipper yet his followers eventually created statues of him and worship him.You are INCREDIBLY stupid.
We don't need idols be they small or giant. It doesn't benefit mankind it only degenerates mankind.
HA HA A Muslim saying Historic Art degenerates mankind. Islam degenerates mankind, Islam is a reminder of dark ages of Ignorance that has been carried through to modern times by the indoctrinated unintelligent segments of humanity. Islam will either be destroyed or else Islam will destroy mankind.
We don't need idols be they small or giant. It doesn't benefit mankind it only degenerates mankind. If anything it serves as a reminder of times of ignorance.
lol they don't predate creation or the creator. Buddha himself was not an idol worshipper yet his followers eventually created statues of him and worship him.
We don't need idols be they small or giant.
lol they don't predate creation or the creator. Buddha himself was not an idol worshipper yet his followers eventually created statues of him and worship him.
We don't need idols be they small or giant. It doesn't benefit mankind it only degenerates mankind. If anything it serves as a reminder of times of ignorance.
No one who worships an idol that can't help him or harm him and that he built with his own hands or paid someone money to build him one is stupid. With all due respect.
And to top it off. It shatters when destroyed. Clearly a foolish practice to worship an idol.
No one who worships an idol that can't help him or harm him and that he built with his own hands or paid someone money to build him one is stupid. With all due respect.So it's okay to destroy the black stone in Mecca?
And to top it off. It shatters when destroyed. Clearly a foolish practice to worship an idol.
So it's okay to destroy the black stone in Mecca?
lol they don't predate creation or the creator. Buddha himself was not an idol worshipper yet his followers eventually created statues of him and worship him.
We don't need idols be they small or giant. It doesn't benefit mankind it only degenerates mankind. If anything it serves as a reminder of times of ignorance.
Lastly it was a muslim country devoid of buddhists who were no longer present. Majority of people became Muslim. If it's their land they can do whatever they want and you have no say in it.
Therefore any muslim mosques or artifacts in non muslim countries should be destroyed. Of course the muslims would accept this gracefully...
Your respect for non-muslims is astounding..
If you don't need idols, why do all muslims bend over and face towards the Kaaba? Does that tiny building not help them? Oh wait, I forgot the Black Stone and the pilgrims trying to kiss it.. Are they worshiping a meteorite fragment?