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Title: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 03:21:58 AM
The scriptures are clear about Israel being Gods chosen people;

Psalms 72;18...Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things

No point in stating all the verses but there are several hundred where God calls and or indicates the children of Israel as his chosen people

Now I will give you a quick summery of the events that took place prior to God choosing Israel as Gods chosen people.

Abraham had a wife who could not conceive so Abraham needed his lineage to continue as he was a patriarch, a man of honor, respect and enormous wealth. So since his wife was baron he decided to continue his lineage with his wifes maid. The maid gave birth to Ishmael who is known to be the father of almost all Arab speaking people alive today.

Several years later Abrahams wife is able to give birth and does so to Isaac, the true heir of Abrahams empire, so the maid and her son was abandoned from Abrahams plans.

Ishmael ends up surviving some turn of events and establishes himself in wealth and power and goes on to having 12 sons.

Several generations later Isaac has a son named Jacob, Jacob gets his name changed to Israel and has 12 sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob is the father of all Jewish people and his descendants become Gods chosen people. This is to fulfill Gods covenant with Abraham.

What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

At the age of 14, Ishmael was freed along with his mother. The Lord’s covenant made clear Ishmael was not to inherit Abraham’s house and that Isaac would be the seed of the covenant. Abraham gave him and his mother a supply of bread and water and sent them away. Hagar entered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba where the two soon ran out of water and Hagar, not wanting to witness the death of her son, set the boy some distance away from herself, and wept. "And God heard the voice of the lad" and sent his angel to tell Hagar, "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation." And God "opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water", from which she drew to save Ishmael's life and her own. "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer."

Now it is established that the Lord helped Ishmael because of him coming from the lineage of Abraham but he did not receive the established covenant God promised Abraham, that promise went to Isaac and Jacob and went to all children of Israel, Gods chosen people.

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked, so there has been a conflict from day one between Gods chosen people, the Israelites and the sons of Ishmael.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.
—Genesis 17:20

So there you have it the promise carried out through Israel was one hair away from it going to Ishmael, but unfortunately for Ishmael he did not get to be Gods chosen people but nevertheless God did bless him and he became powerful nations and he is the Arabs of today.


Summery; The children of Ishmael hold a grudge and feel that the Jewish people have stole from them the covenant God promised but it was the way God wanted it. Out of all this resentment and jealousy comes the birth of Islam.

The Muslim will never accept the path God has chosen for them and have given themselves a delusion to create their own path without Gods blessing so they started a false religion in Islam and have tried to convert all people to their religion.


It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES


edit, the apostrophe on my keyboard is not working, sorry  8)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Brixtonbulldog on October 15, 2012, 03:30:27 AM
lol... pwnd by us heebs again!!!!


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 07:38:56 AM
heebs? does that mean Hebrews?   ???


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 15, 2012, 11:23:31 AM
The scriptures are clear about Israel being Gods chosen people;

Psalms 72;18...Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things

No point in stating all the verses but there are several hundred where God calls and or indicates the children of Israel as his chosen people

Now I will give you a quick summery of the events that took place prior to God choosing Israel as Gods chosen people.

Abraham had a wife who could not conceive so Abraham needed his lineage to continue as he was a patriarch, a man of honor, respect and enormous wealth. So since his wife was baron he decided to continue his lineage with his wifes maid. The maid gave birth to Ishmael who is known to be the father of almost all Arab speaking people alive today.

Several years later Abrahams wife is able to give birth and does so to Isaac, the true heir of Abrahams empire, so the maid and her son was abandoned from Abrahams plans.

Ishmael ends up surviving some turn of events and establishes himself in wealth and power and goes on to having 12 sons.

Several generations later Isaac has a son named Jacob, Jacob gets his name changed to Israel and has 12 sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel. Jacob is the father of all Jewish people and his descendants become Gods chosen people. This is to fulfill Gods covenant with Abraham.

What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

At the age of 14, Ishmael was freed along with his mother. The Lord’s covenant made clear Ishmael was not to inherit Abraham’s house and that Isaac would be the seed of the covenant. Abraham gave him and his mother a supply of bread and water and sent them away. Hagar entered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba where the two soon ran out of water and Hagar, not wanting to witness the death of her son, set the boy some distance away from herself, and wept. "And God heard the voice of the lad" and sent his angel to tell Hagar, "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation." And God "opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water", from which she drew to save Ishmael's life and her own. "And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer."

Now it is established that the Lord helped Ishmael because of him coming from the lineage of Abraham but he did not receive the established covenant God promised Abraham, that promise went to Isaac and Jacob and went to all children of Israel, Gods chosen people.

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked, so there has been a conflict from day one between Gods chosen people, the Israelites and the sons of Ishmael.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.
—Genesis 17:20

So there you have it the promise carried out through Israel was one hair away from it going to Ishmael, but unfortunately for Ishmael he did not get to be Gods chosen people but nevertheless God did bless him and he became powerful nations and he is the Arabs of today.


Summery; The children of Ishmael hold a grudge and feel that the Jewish people have stole from them the covenant God promised but it was the way God wanted it. Out of all this resentment and jealousy comes the birth of Islam.

The Muslim will never accept the path God has chosen for them and have given themselves a delusion to create their own path without Gods blessing so they started a false religion in Islam and have tried to convert all people to their religion.


It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES


edit, the apostrophe on my keyboard is not working, sorry  8)
I had no idea Muhammed descended from this line.  Not that I don't believe you, but I'm intereted to see if our resident Muslim brothers would agree with this.  Soon as read this I googled it and saw it repeated over and over as correct; although, there were random dissenting opinions.  Curious to see where they stand.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 11:26:02 AM
Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version? 


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 15, 2012, 11:28:37 AM
Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version?  

ahmed's tried this tactic on me too.  LOL, he even went so far as to criticize the color of the font so he didn't have to read it.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
ahmed's tried this tactic on me too.  LOL, he even went so far as to criticize the color of the font so he didn't have to read it.

LOL honestly it's not a tactic, I read the first few sentences and didn't see where it's going, then skipped to the "summery" and didn't follow it either.

My posts are always pretty concise.  If the argument makes sense to you or Onetimehard it should be easy for you to summarize it in a paragraph...


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 11:51:33 AM
Too long copy and pasted and not in your own words for me to read.  Can you give a Coles Notes version? 
It was my own version, I did not copy, only thing copied are verses cause I will not change the words from the scriptures, these are my own words I promise you and if you where a man you will admit that your assumption was incorrect


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 11:55:02 AM
LOL honestly it's not a tactic, I read the first few sentences and didn't see where it's going, then skipped to the "summery" and didn't follow it either.

My posts are always pretty concise.  If the argument makes sense to you or Onetimehard it should be easy for you to summarize it in a paragraph...
How can you not see where it was going bro, it was common sense. You did not read it cause these facts I wrote in my own words are impossible to deny.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 12:01:37 PM
It was my own version, I did not copy, only thing copied are verses cause I will not change the words from the scriptures, these are my own words I promise you and if you where a man you will admit that your assumption was incorrect

K I believe you, my bad.  I will read it this afternoon :)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 12:10:05 PM
the simple fact is that faith in eternal justice and a benevolent creator demands pacifism and unconditional love towards all beings. Muhammad spent 10 years fighting in war. therefore, its impossible that he was a prophet.  period. end of story.


none of that bullshit referring to literature is needed.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 12:20:41 PM
the simple fact is that faith in eternal justice and a benevolent creator demands pacifism and unconditional love towards all beings. Muhammad spent 10 years fighting in war. therefore, its impossible that he was a prophet.  period. end of story.


none of that bullshit referring to literature is needed.
Well I am not defending Muhammad but that is flawed logic bro. Moses killed people, Abraham killed people, Samuel killed, lots of prophets have and there is even a verse in The Bible that says and I quote - God is a man of war -. If there is something that all religions agree on is that God can command people to kill if deemed necessary.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 12:24:50 PM
stop thinking in terms of what the blasphemous "bible" tells you and think of the philosophical nature behind real faith in eternal justice and an omnipotent creator.

if you believe in eternal justice and you believe that love for people is the moral imperative, then you will NEVER use violence against anyone.  if someone comes to kill you and your family... you let them come kill you and your family and you show them love while they do it. do you know why? because if there is such a thing as eternal justice then you will not have lost anything and you will gain fast entrance into eternal bliss.   the only justification for violence is a disbelief in eternity and therefore you can use violence in self defense because this is your only life. true faith rules out all violence.  

dont go back to your bible to look for a rebuttal.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 12:57:10 PM
What does the Bible say about Ishmael?

"he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren." When Ishmael was born, Abram was 86 years old.

That translation is debatable (http://mystic444.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/was-ishmael-a-wild-ass-man/).  Here I'm pasting a link instead of putting it in my own words because I haven't even read the link as I don't see the translation as being really relevent either way, but am sending it to you since it seems from your post that you're interested.

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[25] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[26]

If you weren't copy and pasting, what did you mean when you typed [25] and [26]?  :)

It is my humble opinion that if you asked every single Muslim on the planet if they had the chance would they wipe out the Jews off the face of the earth 90% of them would say YES

Your opinion is wrong.  Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews (and Chrsitians).  Wouldn't make sense to want to annihilate from among the minority of individuals we are allowed to marry.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.—Genesis 17:20

Thanks for sharing, that strengthens my belief in Islam because it shows the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad and described Muslims as "a great nation."  This reinforces our belief that the OT, NT and Quran are from the same divine source.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 01:18:35 PM
That translation is debatable (http://mystic444.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/was-ishmael-a-wild-ass-man/).  Here I'm pasting a link instead of putting it in my own words because I haven't even read the link as I don't see the translation as being really relevent either way, but am sending it to you since it seems from your post that you're interested.

If you weren't copy and pasting, what did you mean when you typed [25] and [26]?  :)

Your opinion is wrong.  Islam allows Muslims to marry Jews (and Chrsitians).  Wouldn't make sense to want to annihilate from among the minority of individuals we are allowed to marry.

Thanks for sharing, that strengthens my belief in Islam because it shows the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad and described Muslims as "a great nation."  This reinforces our belief that the OT, NT and Quran are from the same divine source.
My bad that paragraph is the only copy and paste that I did but it is what I would have wrote and I agree with it anyway. Everything else is my own words

Now as far as the great nation part is concerned Islamic nations are great nations, only a fool would believe that they are not. They are very wealthy and have great structures and historical significents of course. Now God also made Egypt a great nation, Babylonia a great nation, Assyria a great nation, Greece a great nation, Rome a great nation and they all saw their destruction at the end. So that means nothing


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 01:21:20 PM
stop thinking in terms of what the blasphemous "bible" tells you and think of the philosophical nature behind real faith in eternal justice and an omnipotent creator.

if you believe in eternal justice and you believe that love for people is the moral imperative, then you will NEVER use violence against anyone.  if someone comes to kill you and your family... you let them come kill you and your family and you show them love while they do it. do you know why? because if there is such a thing as eternal justice then you will not have lost anything and you will gain fast entrance into eternal bliss.   the only justification for violence is a disbelief in eternity and therefore you can use violence in self defense because this is your only life. true faith rules out all violence.  

dont go back to your bible to look for a rebuttal.
I will not use  The Bible as a rebuttal cause you do not believe in the Bible, but every major religion and every religious leader in the history of man kind would disagree with your position on this matter, nevertheless you are entitled to your own opinion but that is all it is, your opinion.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 15, 2012, 01:22:07 PM
Everyone's gotta get over this copy and paste nonsense....we live in a Google world and we're all Google warriors that copy and paste all day everyday LOL.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 01:26:22 PM
Everyone's gotta get over this copy and paste nonsense....we live in a Google world and we're all Google warriors that copy and paste all day everyday LOL.
Copy and paste is OK as long as you have your own thoughts as well, this is just a cop out from being fatigue from arguing us Christians cause we are kicking butt  ;D ;D ;D  :D  ;) 8)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 15, 2012, 01:28:52 PM
Copy and paste is OK as long as you have your own thoughts as well, this is just a cop out from being fatigue from arguing us Christians cause we are kicking butt  ;D ;D ;D  :D  ;) 8)
;)

Me, I sometimes put down my own words 100%, I sometimes do a blend of my words and copy and paste and sometimes someone else has written it so perfectly I don't need to add anything so it's 100% copy and paste. 


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 01:35:20 PM
I will not use  The Bible as a rebuttal cause you do not believe in the Bible, but every major religion and every religious leader in the history of man kind would disagree with your position on this matter, nevertheless you are entitled to your own opinion but that is all it is, your opinion.
when i said dont use the bible what i meant to say is do not make any referance to anything religious in nature. if you want to talk about an issue then you need to provide explanations, not simply say "because X,Y,and Z say so!". and dont copy and paste their explanation. if you hold an opinion you need to understand why you hold that opinion and you need to be able to put your opinion into your own words and explain it to others.  i have done so for you with my opinnion about pacifism and faith.  now if you wish to rebut my assertion you need to explain how im wrong and your right.

secondly, you have got to be shitting me with that generalization. first of all, your christian, and christ.. no matter what quotes or phrases you want to grab from the bible to try and prove otherwise, was a pacifist. the main core of his teachings was to turn the other cheek, love everyone even your enemies, and if someone is to torture and crucify you do not fight back but let them do it and weep for their misguided souls as you die.  ;)   and then we also have ghandi (a pacifist) martin luther king (pacifist)... i could go on and on..

true faith in eternal justice demands pacifism. period.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 01:54:11 PM
My bad that paragraph is the only copy and paste that I did but it is what I would have wrote and I agree with it anyway. Everything else is my own words

Now as far as the great nation part is concerned Islamic nations are great nations, only a fool would believe that they are not. They are very wealthy and have great structures and historical significents of course. Now God also made Egypt a great nation, Babylonia a great nation, Assyria a great nation, Greece a great nation, Rome a great nation and they all saw their destruction at the end. So that means nothing

But now you're concluding that the "great nation" in the quote must mean one that will be destroyed in the end, without any rationale.

In all honesty I didn't see any strong argument in your post.  It's basically summed as saying "because Ishmael was not the chosen one, his descendants got upset and therefore created a false religion some 4000 years later"


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
when i said dont use the bible what i meant to say is do not make any referance to anything religious in nature. if you want to talk about an issue then you need to provide explanations, not simply say "because X,Y,and Z say so!". and dont copy and paste their explanation. if you hold an opinion you need to understand why you hold that opinion and you need to be able to put your opinion into your own words and explain it to others.  i have done so for you with my opinnion about pacifism and faith.  now if you wish to rebut my assertion you need to explain how im wrong and your right.

secondly, you have got to be shitting me with that generalization. first of all, your christian, and christ.. no matter what quotes or phrases you want to grab from the bible to try and prove otherwise, was a pacifist. the main core of his teachings was to turn the other cheek, love everyone even your enemies, and if someone is to torture and crucify you do not fight back but let them do it and weep for their misguided souls as you die.  ;)   and then we also have ghandi (a pacifist) martin luther king (pacifist)... i could go on and on..

true faith in eternal justice demands pacifism. period.
OK then your knowledge of history is completely non existent then. As a historian that I am I know and every historian on the planet would agree we would be back in the stone age if the spiritual leaders of humanity did not think killing was necessary. There where so many Pagan tribes and nations in the history of man kind that would go from village to village and exterminate everything in their path. Woman and children would be stomped on like insects. Such tribes as The Canaanites, Amorites, the Edomites, the Heathens, the Barbarians and the Saxsons just to name a few or maybe someone like you has never heard of Attila the Hun.

How about tribes that would sacrifice children in a painful manner like boiling them alive. There are still tribes that practice human sacrifice. In fact there is a group of tribe in the Amazon that bury children alive only for the fact that they are having nightmare and they believe them to have demons inside them.

So your retarded advise is to have a God that loves us to never instruct or to order or to allow men to stop these people, well well my uneducated friend this would mean we would still be in horse and buggy and there would only be a few races on the planet, everyone would be wiped out.

Your dumb thinking is the result of living in an era where the days of conquest are over but in reality every era before us fought hard to merely survive a brutal and savage world, Wake up.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 02:07:56 PM
But now you're concluding that the "great nation" in the quote must mean one that will be destroyed in the end, without any rationale.

In all honesty I didn't see any strong argument in your post.  It's basically summed as saying "because Ishmael was not the chosen one, his descendants got upset and therefore created a false religion some 4000 years later"
Bro you need to study history a little bit more, no offence but you are not in my league. Ishmael lived 1850 to 1950 BC at the latest possible date so where do you get 4000 and yes Islam was started because the jealously over the true chosen people the Israelites and I stated a lot of overwhelming evidence for this, but what you failed to realize is that the sons of Ishmael tried this during the days of Nebudchadnezzar and tried it again during the Achaemenid dynasty and both times failed miserably. Finally they succeeded cause Muhammad united all Arab tribes.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 02:27:20 PM
Bro you need to study history a little bit more, no offence but you are not in my league. Ishmael lived 1850 to 1950 BC at the latest possible date so where do you get 4000 and yes Islam was started because the jealously over the true chosen people the Israelites and I stated a lot of overwhelming evidence for this, but what you failed to realize is that the sons of Ishmael tried this during the days of Nebudchadnezzar and tried it again during the Achaemenid dynasty and both times failed miserably. Finally they succeeded cause Muhammad united all Arab tribes.

OK so you got me on history or the # of years, doesn't change the argument though, or lack thereof :) 

All you're doing here is stating a result (Islam) and then trying to find a motive (albeit 2500 years prior to the Quran), and then concluding that the end result must be fabricated due to the motive.  Logically this is very weak reasoning.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 02:46:28 PM
OK so you got me on history or the # of years, doesn't change the argument though, or lack thereof :) 

All you're doing here is stating a result (Islam) and then trying to find a motive (albeit 2500 years prior to the Quran), and then concluding that the end result must be fabricated due to the motive.  Logically this is very weak reasoning.
Well I do not think it is a weak argument considering I only brushed the surface there are 100s of other points that lead me to believe this. I did not want to spoil all the fun just yet bro  :D

I thought i would reserve some amo for later, lol.. I mean it all fits in like a glove. The covenant with Abraham had to be past down to someone from his lineage and for a 13 year period it seemed like it was going to Ishmael. This is like giving you a check for a 100 billion dollars and about 10 seconds before you cash it I cancel the check, that would not result in a happy camper here. Of course you would do everything possible to get the check back. This is precisely what the Arabs did, they created Islam in a mass delusion and the followers are fully aware of the entire story so of course they are going to like the idea and follow it


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Archer77 on October 15, 2012, 02:55:07 PM
the simple fact is that faith in eternal justice and a benevolent creator demands pacifism and unconditional love towards all beings. Muhammad spent 10 years fighting in war. therefore, its impossible that he was a prophet.  period. end of story.


none of that bullshit referring to literature is needed.

Logical fallacy.

No True Scotsman
This fallacy is a form of circular reasoning, in that it attempts to include a conclusion about something in the very definition of the word itself. It is therefore also a semantic argument.

The term comes from the example: If Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave, and you provide a counter example of a Scotsman who is clearly a coward, Ian might respond, "Well, then, he's no true Scotsman." In essence Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave by including bravery in the definition of what it is to be a Scotsman. This argument does not establish any facts or new information, and is limited to Ian's definition of the word, "Scotsman.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 03:00:12 PM
This is like giving you a check for a 100 billion dollars and about 10 seconds before you cash it I cancel the check, that would not result in a happy camper here.

Agreed with you here, but would that unhappycamperness continue for 2500 years and to such an extent that it would cause a major religion to be fabricated?  I find that doubtful.  And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough.  It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her."  That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: nasht5 on October 15, 2012, 03:10:44 PM
the point of what year it was does not hold water. one guy is using the christian calender, B.C. and A.D. the other group don't use the same calender. because they don't believe in christ, duh.

to all of you who want the simple version here it is; A guy wanted to have kids but his wife couldn't have kids. So the guy fucked the maid who gave him a son. back then the 1st born son inherits everything. BUT then the guys wife does get prego. oops, so the guy leaves everything to his 2nd son which pisses off his 1st son and now we have terrorist. ta-daaaa!


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Psychopath on October 15, 2012, 03:14:11 PM
God is such a fruity idiot. What a mess.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 15, 2012, 03:34:13 PM
the point of what year it was does not hold water. one guy is using the christian calender, B.C. and A.D. the other group don't use the same calender. because they don't believe in christ, duh.

to all of you who want the simple version here it is; A guy wanted to have kids but his wife couldn't have kids. So the guy fucked the maid who gave him a son. back then the 1st born son inherits everything. BUT then the guys wife does get prego. oops, so the guy leaves everything to his 2nd son which pisses off his 1st son and now we have terrorist. ta-daaaa!

Actually he's not even saying "now we have a terrorist," he's saying after thousands of years including tens of generations after the fact the anger still existed in ancestors such that it's conclusive they would create a false religion out of spite.....exactly why I said it's a weak illogical argument.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 15, 2012, 03:41:32 PM
Agreed with you here, but would that unhappycamperness continue for 2500 years and to such an extent that it would cause a major religion to be fabricated?  I find that doubtful.  And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough.  It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her."  That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.
I lmao on that word bro  :D.... unhappycamperness  8)

Continuing this resentment for 2500 years is nothing bro. Do you not know that David the Jewish boy killed Goliath the Palestinian over 3000 years ago. lol The Palestinian and the Jews are still killing each other every day.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 04:41:50 PM
OK then your knowledge of history is completely non existent then. As a historian that I am I know and every historian on the planet would agree we would be back in the stone age if the spiritual leaders of humanity did not think killing was necessary. There where so many Pagan tribes and nations in the history of man kind that would go from village to village and exterminate everything in their path. Woman and children would be stomped on like insects. Such tribes as The Canaanites, Amorites, the Edomites, the Heathens, the Barbarians and the Saxsons just to name a few or maybe someone like you has never heard of Attila the Hun.

How about tribes that would sacrifice children in a painful manner like boiling them alive. There are still tribes that practice human sacrifice. In fact there is a group of tribe in the Amazon that bury children alive only for the fact that they are having nightmare and they believe them to have demons inside them.

So your retarded advise is to have a God that loves us to never instruct or to order or to allow men to stop these people, well well my uneducated friend this would mean we would still be in horse and buggy and there would only be a few races on the planet, everyone would be wiped out.

Your dumb thinking is the result of living in an era where the days of conquest are over but in reality every era before us fought hard to merely survive a brutal and savage world, Wake up.
blah blah blah

the idea that god needs you to fight his battles is blasphemous.

the only person god needs you to worry about is yourself.

life on earth is not about fighting evil in others, its about fighting evil in yourself.

your journey towards gods enlightened spirit is never ending and it will never involve violence towards others.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 04:43:23 PM
Logical fallacy.

No True Scotsman
This fallacy is a form of circular reasoning, in that it attempts to include a conclusion about something in the very definition of the word itself. It is therefore also a semantic argument.

The term comes from the example: If Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave, and you provide a counter example of a Scotsman who is clearly a coward, Ian might respond, "Well, then, he's no true Scotsman." In essence Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave by including bravery in the definition of what it is to be a Scotsman. This argument does not establish any facts or new information, and is limited to Ian's definition of the word, "Scotsman.
you obviously have no idea what i was talking about. please, tell me what you think i was saying and let me correct your misinterpretation.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 15, 2012, 04:56:53 PM
The premise of your argument is ridiculous. On the one hand you are quoting a bible verse that says that his descendants will be blessed and that God sent an angel, protected them, promised them success, etc...

On the other hand you have a narration stating they are wild asses. Sounds like the wonderful handy work of hateful Jews more so than God.

Funny that, you think the idea that Jews are God's chosen people is a must. They were chosen as per our own beliefs in Islam because they believed in God. Not based on race.

The idea here that's being defended and that our resident zionist jew (who hates blacks, arabs, muslims and christians) said oh yeee us heebs owning. Is just demonstrating that this is a racist religion or at least it turned into one.

What we believe in Islam is the same for Abraham as a messenger of God. In the qur'an Abraham prays for all his descendants to be believers and God answers him no, because everyone is free and there is no gaurantee how anyone turns out.

What the Jews ignore is the history of the Arabs and what Abraham did. What Abraham did with Ishmael and with Isaac teaching them about God. In Islam we believe Abraham visited Ishmael and that the kabaa was built by them both.

Before Islam the Arabs were following a few diffferent religions. Some were pagans, some were following Abraham's religion and they called towards one God and some were Christians. Amongst them lived Jews as well.

One of the prophecies of the old testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) is that he would be a prophet like unto moses, who will speak what God commands him to speak. Muhammad (pbuh) is far closer to this than Jesus (pbuh). Jesus did not bring new laws, he came to fulfill and obey them. Jesus did not have an army like Moses. Jesus did not have vast followers like Moses, Muhammad did. Etc...

If anything it is the Jews who have a problem. In fact one of the reasons that many Jews rejected accepting Islam and Muhammda (pbuh) was out of pride and arrogance. They recognized him as a prophet in the arab peninsula, but, they rejected him on the basis that he was not a Jew. This is fact, although many rabbis did become Muslim many did not out of racial pride.

Lastly, if anyone is to talk about terrorists. Samson was the original terrorist who suicided himself. Oh yes, I know the story. How he held the pillars and killed thousands and how his hair gave him strength, etc... etc...

In Islam we don't have this story. I looked after I became Muslim.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 05:01:48 PM
^^^ according to the bible  Jesus did change the law.  when people talk about the fulfillment of the law they are talking about the fulfillment of god's true law, as opposed to the existing laws when jesus came to earth.  the laws of judaism and juda before jesus had a lot to do with arbitrary guidelines like wash your hands before eating, dont work on sundays, dont eat a food unless its prepared a certain way, etc. jesus came with the message that all of those laws were rubbish and that god's will was simply to love all beings unconditionally and completely.   when muhammad came, his message was that the teachings of jesus, that all that mattered was love, was far too weak and easy and that people had to abide by certain strict guidelines about how to live their life and that simply loving everyone unconditionally was not enough.  muhammad was an extremely misguided and violent soul who should not be worshipped but pitied.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 15, 2012, 05:02:59 PM
Jesus did not change the law. Paul did and the Romans abolished it. Yes the very enemies of Jesus and the Jews, the then believing nation of the world.

Quote
like wash your hands before eating

Seriously?... man...

According to Islam, we continue off where Jesus left off. Paul is ignored as he is a fraud who perverted Jesus' message.

The law is changed but retained. Yes we wash our hands before eating... Amongst many other things...

Jesus message was of mercy, as Jews were devoid of faith. They had the law of God, yet they did not have faith. So Jesus emphasized more so on the heart and faith.

Jesus did not intend for Paul to start preaching do away with the law its all love love love, delusional emotional rhetoric....

So you are saying if the Palestinians Christian and Muslim are being slaughtered by Jews, they should just show 'love' when they are being killed. Do you realize how foolish that sounds?

The qur'an opens with surah al-fatiha... and in the last few verses we say, God guide us to the straight path. Not of those that have earned your anger (jews) or of those that have been misguided (Christians).

This we recite every prayer. Why? Jews had everything given to them, many prophets from them, yet they lost faith and were always haughty. Never truly obedient in their heart to God. Christians have faith, yet they have no knowledge, so every each christian follows whatever their desires and emotions tell them. No christian has the same knowledge of God. The law is lost. Hence... today... Christians have no problem with fornication, homosexuals being married and amongst many other things. Everything is based on man's law.. and the only 'faith' you have is "Jesus saved us" and a rhetorical "Jesus loves us all".

God loves the believers, God is merciful to all if they seek his mercy. God is known as al-wadud the loving in the qur'an. However God is also the most just and instructs us to believe and enforce justice. Otherwise the weak will suffer and tyrants will rule.

Today the elite are filthy rich and the poor helpless. Just one example. This is the injustice where God is left out of peole's lives and everyone just has rhetorical faith.

Islam is a complete way of life, starting with ourselves as individuals, those closest to us and then communities, socieites, nations ultimately to build one nation under God. One ummah.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Archer77 on October 15, 2012, 05:03:44 PM
you obviously have no idea what i was talking about. please, tell me what you think i was saying and let me correct your misinterpretation.


It's perfectly clear what you said and it was terrible Logic.  You commited a logical fallacy called, no true scotsman?  I provide the definition of this fallacy for you.  Your argument is also wrong simply based on scripture alone.  God and his followers, of multiple faiths, indiscriminately murder anyone or group who opposes it/them.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 05:07:14 PM

It's perfectly clear what you said and it was terrible Logic.  You commited a logical fallacy called, no true scotsman?  I provide the definition of this fallacy for you.  Your argument is also wrong simply based on scripture alone.  God and his followers, of multiple faiths, indiscriminately murder anyone or group who opposes it/them.
i read your fallacy and i dont see how it relates to what i said at all. also, i didnt say that scripture advocates pacifism. if there is any argument worth anything in any scripture that contradicts the idea that god's true will is only pacifism.. then you can bring forth those arguments and i will address them. simply saying "your wrong because scripture says so" isnt an argument at all. who gives a fuck what the scripture says. bring to me the argument you think justifies your belief and we can talk about that. dont just simply say "because scripture told me so".


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Archer77 on October 15, 2012, 05:39:33 PM
i read your fallacy and i dont see how it relates to what i said at all. also, i didnt say that scripture advocates pacifism. if there is any argument worth anything in any scripture that contradicts the idea that god's true will is only pacifism.. then you can bring forth those arguments and i will address them. simply saying "your wrong because scripture says so" isnt an argument at all. who gives a fuck what the scripture says. bring to me the argument you think justifies your belief and we can talk about that. dont just simply say "because scripture told me so".

I suggest you reread the definition of the no true scots men fallacy I provided and then reread the post you made that I initially responded to.  

You assert as absolute truth that belief in a benevolent god leads to pacificism and love for all. How do you know this?  Can you prove it? The answer is, you don't know and you can't prove it, but you feel comfortable defining it. I could define it differently just as easily and be just as wrong.

That is how you committ the no scots men fallacy. You defined a benevolent god and then use your own definition to argue why Mohammed isn't a believer in a benevolent god.  It's circular logic.

 



Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 05:42:01 PM
i didnt say that muhammad was not a believer. i think its rather obvious that he was. what i said is that he was no prophet. and what i mean by prophet is a person who acts god-like in every way and never strays from that divine nature. muhammad fought in wars, violence is not divine, and therefore he is not a prophet.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Archer77 on October 15, 2012, 05:50:33 PM
i didnt say that muhammad was not a believer. i think its rather obvious that he was. what i said is that he was no prophet. and what i mean by prophet is a person who acts god-like in every way and never strays from that divine nature. muhammad fought in wars, violence is not divine, and therefore he is not a prophet.


How do you know what it is to be god-like or what a divine nature is?   Again, you don't nor do you even know if such things exist.  You keep defining these concepts and judging other based on your own definition. This is the essence of the no Scotsmen fallacy.

What you must realize is your definition is not an objective truth, it's subjective-maybe even meaningless if these concepts don't exist therefore your conclusions are fallacious.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
obviously i am speaking hypothetically when i talk about god's will. in order to think about what might be god's will first you need to take for granted that he exists. secondly, i think, you need to assume that god is benevolent and has set up existence in the best possible manner. 

after you take those two premises as true then you can begin to make assumptions on fairly strong grounds about what god's will might be.

what do i know about god, if god does exist?  well..  god , it seems, is "hands off" and allows humans to be evil if they so wish. thus, i can assume that if i also wish to be like god that i will also have to allow people to be evil. and violence as a means of stopping evil behavior would be logically inconsistent with such an assumption.   also, i can assume that god, since he would have the power to create, would also have the power to kill all evil people the second they became evil and thus protect all good people from evil people. but since god does not do so, then i must resist the urge to do so as well.

do you see how this works? try to think deeply about this


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Archer77 on October 15, 2012, 06:31:26 PM
obviously i am speaking hypothetically when i talk about god's will. in order to think about what might be god's will first you need to take for granted that he exists. secondly, i think, you need to assume that god is benevolent and has set up existence in the best possible manner. 

after you take those two premises as true then you can begin to make assumptions on fairly strong grounds about what god's will might be.

what do i know about god, if god does exist?  well..  god , it seems, is "hands off" and allows humans to be evil if they so wish. thus, i can assume that if i also wish to be like god that i will also have to allow people to be evil. and violence as a means of stopping evil behavior would be logically inconsistent with such an assumption.   also, i can assume that god, since he would have the power to create, would also have the power to kill all evil people the second they became evil and thus protect all good people from evil people. but since god does not do so, then i must resist the urge to do so as well.

do you see how this works? try to think deeply about this

You didn't present your arguments as a hypothetical but as truth.  Everything you've said above is nonsense. Even if I were to presuppose for the sake of having an argument that some of it was true, the arguments would still be weak.

Besides, it has nothing to do with the whole argument we have been having about you committing the no Scotsmen fallacy.  You seem to be taking this to seriously.  You shouldn't. I don't. 


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: tbombz on October 15, 2012, 06:53:52 PM
the fact you dont take it seriously is evident by your lack of understanding my last argument.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Psychopath on October 15, 2012, 06:56:38 PM
the fact you dont take it seriously is evident by your lack of understanding my last argument.


Just to be clear, your argument is as follows... After somehow arriving at an agreed upon outline of God's attributes. One must strive to emulate said attributes to be God like, as being God like is the ultimate purpose of life. Correct?


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Radical Plato on October 15, 2012, 09:38:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkxx0wkFVHQ


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 10:22:24 AM
Agreed with you here, but would that unhappycamperness continue for 2500 years and to such an extent that it would cause a major religion to be fabricated?  I find that doubtful.  And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough.  It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her."  That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.
Your example is a good example and will work against you very soon, here is why; In the court of law a motive and a few key pieces of evidence is enough for a conviction.

 Anyone will agree that the most important aspect of a case is to established a motive, in your example you admitted that Y had a motive therefor admitting that Muslim had a motive as well. So we are both in agreement that a motive was there, now let's get started on the key points, the 100's of them BTW  ;),... shall we?


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 10:24:58 AM
Logical fallacy.

No True Scotsman
This fallacy is a form of circular reasoning, in that it attempts to include a conclusion about something in the very definition of the word itself. It is therefore also a semantic argument.

The term comes from the example: If Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave, and you provide a counter example of a Scotsman who is clearly a coward, Ian might respond, "Well, then, he's no true Scotsman." In essence Ian claims that all Scotsman are brave by including bravery in the definition of what it is to be a Scotsman. This argument does not establish any facts or new information, and is limited to Ian's definition of the word, "Scotsman.
Your post is way more then enough to put this subject to rest. Thank you  8)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 10:28:14 AM
the point of what year it was does not hold water. one guy is using the christian calender, B.C. and A.D. the other group don't use the same calender. because they don't believe in christ, duh.

to all of you who want the simple version here it is; A guy wanted to have kids but his wife couldn't have kids. So the guy fucked the maid who gave him a son. back then the 1st born son inherits everything. BUT then the guys wife does get prego. oops, so the guy leaves everything to his 2nd son which pisses off his 1st son and now we have terrorist. ta-daaaa!
Well, kind of but without the terrorist part though cause I don't think the entire religion should be labelled on account of a couple of asshole causing havoc in the name of their religion, also in a much more respectful manner then the way you put it.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 10:30:44 AM
you obviously have no idea what i was talking about. please, tell me what you think i was saying and let me correct your misinterpretation.
He knows precisely what you where saying and he just nailed you to the wall in a flawless victory, utterly destroyed your argument effortlessly, I would quit now while you have the chance  ;)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 10:38:25 AM
The premise of your argument is ridiculous. On the one hand you are quoting a bible verse that says that his descendants will be blessed and that God sent an angel, protected them, promised them success, etc...

On the other hand you have a narration stating they are wild asses. Sounds like the wonderful handy work of hateful Jews more so than God.

Funny that, you think the idea that Jews are God's chosen people is a must. They were chosen as per our own beliefs in Islam because they believed in God. Not based on race.

The idea here that's being defended and that our resident zionist jew (who hates blacks, arabs, muslims and christians) said oh yeee us heebs owning. Is just demonstrating that this is a racist religion or at least it turned into one.

What we believe in Islam is the same for Abraham as a messenger of God. In the qur'an Abraham prays for all his descendants to be believers and God answers him no, because everyone is free and there is no gaurantee how anyone turns out.

What the Jews ignore is the history of the Arabs and what Abraham did. What Abraham did with Ishmael and with Isaac teaching them about God. In Islam we believe Abraham visited Ishmael and that the kabaa was built by them both.

Before Islam the Arabs were following a few diffferent religions. Some were pagans, some were following Abraham's religion and they called towards one God and some were Christians. Amongst them lived Jews as well.

One of the prophecies of the old testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) is that he would be a prophet like unto moses, who will speak what God commands him to speak. Muhammad (pbuh) is far closer to this than Jesus (pbuh). Jesus did not bring new laws, he came to fulfill and obey them. Jesus did not have an army like Moses. Jesus did not have vast followers like Moses, Muhammad did. Etc...

If anything it is the Jews who have a problem. In fact one of the reasons that many Jews rejected accepting Islam and Muhammda (pbuh) was out of pride and arrogance. They recognized him as a prophet in the arab peninsula, but, they rejected him on the basis that he was not a Jew. This is fact, although many rabbis did become Muslim many did not out of racial pride.

Lastly, if anyone is to talk about terrorists. Samson was the original terrorist who suicided himself. Oh yes, I know the story. How he held the pillars and killed thousands and how his hair gave him strength, etc... etc...

In Islam we don't have this story. I looked after I became Muslim.
You don't have to rehearse the Koran, I just read front to back, I know exactly what it says, also my argument is not ridiculous as bigbobs and I just agreed that I established a motive.

Now as your argument about God blessing Ishmael is concerned is fine, I agree he was blessed however he gave Ishmael a house but he gave Israel a mansion, big difference there bro. As far as a prophesy of Muhammad is concerned in another thread I addressed why there is no prophesy and you completely ignored my post cause you did not have the goods for a rebuttal but here it is again for you....


I am fully aware of what you are referring to, in Hebrew some word in a prayer spells out Muhammad I know that but what I am saying is anyone can pick a prayer in the Psalms and and get a Hebrew word from that prayer then name their child that Hebrew word then claim "look the name of my Child is in the scripture" , you see what I am saying

and what is the verse of the description of Muhammad cause I am pretty sure it is a very vague description and you guy try to high jack the meaning.

Look you want a real prophesy, take Jesus as an example; 600+ prophetic verses and points, here is a few;

born in Bethleham
called a Nazerene
born of a virgin
from the tribe of Judah
from the house of David
Children massacre after his birth
come out of Egypt
mission would include the gentiles
miraculous healings performed
despised and rejected by men
reject by his own brothers
rejected by rulers
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Silver used to buy field
His stripes and chastisement
like a lamb to the slaughter
feet and hands nailed
vinegar to drink
no broken bones
garments gambled
buried in a rich man's tomb
back from the dead

Those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head, there are way more and that is what you call a prophesy not some Hebrew word mention in a prayer that some Muslim decided to name a man after that word 600 years later and some vague description that nearly a 1000 people could fall under.

Trust me when the Bible intends to prophesy something it does it multiple times and in grand fashion and bombards the issue over and over, thus is the way of the scripture regarding prophesy. I hate to burst your bubble but there is no intended prophesy of Muhammad, if there were we would have 100's of verses and multiple prophesies as is shown in all other prophesies.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 16, 2012, 11:40:33 AM
You don't have to rehearse the Koran, I just read front to back, I know exactly what it says, also my argument is not ridiculous as bigbobs and I just agreed that I established a motive.

Now as your argument about God blessing Ishmael is concerned is fine, I agree he was blessed however he gave Ishmael a house but he gave Israel a mansion, big difference there bro. As far as a prophesy of Muhammad is concerned in another thread I addressed why there is no prophesy and you completely ignored my post cause you did not have the goods for a rebuttal but here it is again for you....


I am fully aware of what you are referring to, in Hebrew some word in a prayer spells out Muhammad I know that but what I am saying is anyone can pick a prayer in the Psalms and and get a Hebrew word from that prayer then name their child that Hebrew word then claim "look the name of my Child is in the scripture" , you see what I am saying

and what is the verse of the description of Muhammad cause I am pretty sure it is a very vague description and you guy try to high jack the meaning.

Look you want a real prophesy, take Jesus as an example; 600+ prophetic verses and points, here is a few;

born in Bethleham
called a Nazerene
born of a virgin
from the tribe of Judah
from the house of David
Children massacre after his birth
come out of Egypt
mission would include the gentiles
miraculous healings performed
despised and rejected by men
reject by his own brothers
rejected by rulers
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Silver used to buy field
His stripes and chastisement
like a lamb to the slaughter
feet and hands nailed
vinegar to drink
no broken bones
garments gambled
buried in a rich man's tomb
back from the dead

Those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head, there are way more and that is what you call a prophesy not some Hebrew word mention in a prayer that some Muslim decided to name a man after that word 600 years later and some vague description that nearly a 1000 people could fall under.

Trust me when the Bible intends to prophesy something it does it multiple times and in grand fashion and bombards the issue over and over, thus is the way of the scripture regarding prophesy. I hate to burst your bubble but there is no intended prophesy of Muhammad, if there were we would have 100's of verses and multiple prophesies as is shown in all other prophesies.

Psalm 2:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed

Psalm 69:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty

Psalm 41:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Zechariah 11:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Micah 5:1
King James Version (KJV)
5 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

Isaiah 50:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psalm 22:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalm 22:1
King James Version (KJV)
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalm 22:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalm 69:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psalm 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Isaiah 53:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Psalm 22:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Exodus 12:46
King James Version (KJV)
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

Psalm 34:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Zechariah 12:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isaiah 53:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Psalm 68:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 110:1
King James Version (KJV)
110 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.



Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 16, 2012, 12:19:14 PM
Here's why your "argument" does not make sense in simple terms:

There are two possibilities regarding what was meant by Ishmael's descendants building a great nation:

a)  Was referring to Prophet Muhammad
b)  Was not referring to Prophet Muhammad

If it's b) then the "argument' does not hold at all.

If it's a) then the "argument" can be made that the building of the great nation was blessed by God, since it is referred to as a "great nation" without any negative connotation attached to it.

You're picking a) but then saying that the great nation was a negative happening / fabricated religion, and your only reason for claiming so is that "the descentants of Ishmael must have been upset and in revenge-mode."

At this point, do you see how many "if's" and assumptions are needed in your "argument"?  That's why its a logically weak "argument."  (I put quotations around argument because I'm not even sure it qualifies as one due to how weak it is).

Trust me when the Bible intends to prophesy something it does it multiple times and in grand fashion and bombards the issue over and over,

Then why is it that you only have one verse which you're using in your "argument" to suggest a) above, and using assumptions to imply that the "great nation" is even something negative.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 16, 2012, 01:14:07 PM
No idea what you are rambling on about onetimehard. We believe in Jesus (pbuh) just not the pauline Christianity version of it. We accept everything up to the point that Jesus himself did/thought. Not Paul. After all we continue the law of God, you denounce it by following Paul and the Romans. What you follow is desires and man made laws. We follow God and His law. Paul was a pharsees Jew who Jesus cursed and spoke ill of, called them liars, vile people, devil's own, etc... amongst other things.

Speaking of prophecy. Was Jesus like Moses, or was Muhammad more like Moses:

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%201.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%202.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%203.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%204.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%205.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%206.jpg)

Analysis of Deuteronomy 18: 18

 

We read the following words addressed to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy Chapter 18: verse 18:

"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee ; and I will put my words in his mouth." (Deuteronomy 18: 18)

“A prophet from among their brethren” means from the brethren of the Jews, meaning the Arabs. Abraham had two sons. His first born son was Ishmael (from whom the Arabs descend) and a his second born son is Isaac (from whom Jews descend).

“Like unto thee” means the expected prophet will be like Moses. Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم  is like Moses.

 

Comparison between Moses, Muhammad and Jesus (Peace be upon them)

(http://www.upl.co/uploads/JesusVsMuhammadCompared2Moses.png)

“I will put my words in his mouth" describes perfectly how Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم  received revelation of the exact words of God in the form of the verses of the Quran. Whereas the Gospel was inspired by God, but not the exact/literal word of God.

If this verse does not apply to Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , the prophecy in this verse will be unfulfilled. Prophet Jesus himself never claimed to be the Prophet alluded to in this verse. Even his disciples were of the same opinion: they looked to the second coming of Jesus for the fulfillment of this prophecy (Acts 3: 17-24). So far it is undisputed that the first coming of Jesus was not the advent of this anticipated prophet and his second advent can hardly fulfill the prophecy. Jesus, as is believed by his Church, will appear as a Judge and not as a law-giver; but the promised one has to come with a "fiery law" in "his right hand."

Muhammad Asad (formerly known as Leopold Weiss), a Jewish scholar who converted to Islam said:

The 'brethren' of the children of Israel are obviously the Arabs, and particularly the Musta'ribah ('Arabianized') group among them, which traces its descent to Ishmael and Abraham: and since it is this group that the Arabian Prophet's own tribe, the Quraish, belonged, the above biblical passages must be taken as referring to his advent."



Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 16, 2012, 01:43:28 PM
No idea what you are rambling on about onetimehard. We believe in Jesus (pbuh) just not the pauline Christianity version of it. We accept everything up to the point that Jesus himself did/thought. Not Paul. After all we continue the law of God, you denounce it by following Paul and the Romans. What you follow is desires and man made laws. We follow God and His law. Paul was a pharsees Jew who Jesus cursed and spoke ill of, called them liars, vile people, devil's own, etc... amongst other things.

Speaking of prophecy. Was Jesus like Moses, or was Muhammad more like Moses:

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%201.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%202.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%203.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%204.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%205.jpg)

(http://www.discoveringislam.org/Deuteronomy1818%206.jpg)

Analysis of Deuteronomy 18: 18

 

We read the following words addressed to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy Chapter 18: verse 18:

"I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee ; and I will put my words in his mouth." (Deuteronomy 18: 18)

“A prophet from among their brethren” means from the brethren of the Jews, meaning the Arabs. Abraham had two sons. His first born son was Ishmael (from whom the Arabs descend) and a his second born son is Isaac (from whom Jews descend).

“Like unto thee” means the expected prophet will be like Moses. Jesus is not like Moses, but Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم  is like Moses.

 

Comparison between Moses, Muhammad and Jesus (Peace be upon them)

(http://www.upl.co/uploads/JesusVsMuhammadCompared2Moses.png)

“I will put my words in his mouth" describes perfectly how Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم  received revelation of the exact words of God in the form of the verses of the Quran. Whereas the Gospel was inspired by God, but not the exact/literal word of God.

If this verse does not apply to Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم , the prophecy in this verse will be unfulfilled. Prophet Jesus himself never claimed to be the Prophet alluded to in this verse. Even his disciples were of the same opinion: they looked to the second coming of Jesus for the fulfillment of this prophecy (Acts 3: 17-24). So far it is undisputed that the first coming of Jesus was not the advent of this anticipated prophet and his second advent can hardly fulfill the prophecy. Jesus, as is believed by his Church, will appear as a Judge and not as a law-giver; but the promised one has to come with a "fiery law" in "his right hand."

Muhammad Asad (formerly known as Leopold Weiss), a Jewish scholar who converted to Islam said:

The 'brethren' of the children of Israel are obviously the Arabs, and particularly the Musta'ribah ('Arabianized') group among them, which traces its descent to Ishmael and Abraham: and since it is this group that the Arabian Prophet's own tribe, the Quraish, belonged, the above biblical passages must be taken as referring to his advent."



Please provide the verses where Jesus Christ curses Paul.



Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 16, 2012, 02:04:52 PM
Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 16, 2012, 05:10:46 PM
Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.

Please provide the boasting verses of Paul.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 06:26:34 PM
Here's why your "argument" does not make sense in simple terms:

There are two possibilities regarding what was meant by Ishmael's descendants building a great nation:

a)  Was referring to Prophet Muhammad
b)  Was not referring to Prophet Muhammad

If it's b) then the "argument' does not hold at all.

If it's a) then the "argument" can be made that the building of the great nation was blessed by God, since it is referred to as a "great nation" without any negative connotation attached to it.

You're picking a) but then saying that the great nation was a negative happening / fabricated religion, and your only reason for claiming so is that "the descentants of Ishmael must have been upset and in revenge-mode."

At this point, do you see how many "if's" and assumptions are needed in your "argument"?  That's why its a logically weak "argument."  (I put quotations around argument because I'm not even sure it qualifies as one due to how weak it is).

Then why is it that you only have one verse which you're using in your "argument" to suggest a) above, and using assumptions to imply that the "great nation" is even something negative.
NO NO NO brother, there is more then 1 verse, I believe there is 3 or 4 verses regarding Ishmael. I only used 1, so what? I also only used 1 when I said the children of Israel are Gods chosen people and there are 100s. In your first paragragh you said nothing, you keep repeating yourself that the arguments weak, Is that all you have to say on that matter. You already agreed that Arabs had a motive for starting a religion, what you wrote can never be taken back, here is what you wrote admitting Arabs had a motive for starting Islam, that is half the argument.



And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough.  It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her."  That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.

The underline is a quote from bigbobs admitting the descendants of Ishmael had a motive for starting Islam


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 16, 2012, 07:40:05 PM
lol so tell me why did God chose the descendants of Israel? Their race? And chosen for all time?  ::)

You're not trying to ascertain any sort of truth in any matter you are just trying to reverberate your own hate of Muslims and hate of Arabs.

The fact is countless Christian Arabs exist, countless Christian Arabs became Muslim, countless Jews became Muslim. You are just sounding silly.

You are also bypassing what I just posted about the brethren of the Jews and the prophecy of "that prophet". When John the baptist was inquired on about Elias, Christ or "that prophet".

The similarities between Moses and Muhammad are far greater than the countless differences between Jesus and Moses.

Even so if you are arguing for the descendants of Israel. How is it that you are not then following in their footsteps by following God's law? Or how about the fact that if they are God's 'chosen people' Paul went out and about against Jesus' own accord that he only came to the children of Israel. Paul went out to those 'not chosen'.

Quite alot of contradictions. To me it seems you are picking and chosing your 'chosen people' and how you relate to them.

If anything, Muslims recognize the history, the religion, the prophets, God's law, etc... The Jews have anger and pride in their racial superiority. You have anger towards Muslims and Arabs (as do the Jews). So the premise of your argument of someone being 'jealous' it would seem you and the Jews are 'jealous'.

Islam is a religion for all mankind, not racist.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Radical Plato on October 16, 2012, 07:55:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fnCePzHw8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12hwt7Nlt-M


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 16, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
Translation:

"I say what you want, okay, ya?, you give me money, lots of money, okay? uuh uuh eh... yea. I uuh kiss israeeel... and uh.. my father I sell him too just give me villa understand habibi?"

Very powerful speaker  ;D

Lovely :)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Radical Plato on October 16, 2012, 09:05:16 PM
Translation:

"I say what you want, okay, ya?, you give me money, lots of money, okay? uuh uuh eh... yea. I uuh kiss israeeel... and uh.. my father I sell him too just give me villa understand habibi?"

Very powerful speaker  ;D

Lovely :)
It makes me laugh how upset Muslims get when one of their own learns the truth and turns it's back on the Religion of HATE!  It exposes Muslims for what they are, brainwashed indoctrinated repeaters without an ounce of credibility or the ability to think for themselves.  Muslims must have the worst childhoods on the planet to end up such spiteful, hate filled violent adults.  Good thing they are semi literate cave dwelling barbarians that haven't got the intelligence or the know how to build a decent civilisation with the muscle power to back up their sick twisted rhetoric.  How many Muslims in the past decade you say the West has dealt with so far, a million!  That's 1 Million less whackjobs stealing oxygen from decent folk!  Good Riddance and may the removal of Islam move along at such a wonderful pace!


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 16, 2012, 09:26:23 PM
lol so tell me why did God chose the descendants of Israel? Their race? And chosen for all time?  ::)

You're not trying to ascertain any sort of truth in any matter you are just trying to reverberate your own hate of Muslims and hate of Arabs.

The fact is countless Christian Arabs exist, countless Christian Arabs became Muslim, countless Jews became Muslim. You are just sounding silly.

You are also bypassing what I just posted about the brethren of the Jews and the prophecy of "that prophet". When John the baptist was inquired on about Elias, Christ or "that prophet".

The similarities between Moses and Muhammad are far greater than the countless differences between Jesus and Moses.

Even so if you are arguing for the descendants of Israel. How is it that you are not then following in their footsteps by following God's law? Or how about the fact that if they are God's 'chosen people' Paul went out and about against Jesus' own accord that he only came to the children of Israel. Paul went out to those 'not chosen'.

Quite alot of contradictions. To me it seems you are picking and chosing your 'chosen people' and how you relate to them.

If anything, Muslims recognize the history, the religion, the prophets, God's law, etc... The Jews have anger and pride in their racial superiority. You have anger towards Muslims and Arabs (as do the Jews). So the premise of your argument of someone being 'jealous' it would seem you and the Jews are 'jealous'.

Islam is a religion for all mankind, not racist.
When did I say I hate Muslims or hate Arabs? That is the emotional response you came up with cause you can not handle the truth, I love Arabs and I love there culture bro, historically there are no greater race in terms of what fascinates me, so stop melting down all over the place bro, control yourself, it is OK to lose an argument once in a while, lol, I hate Arabs, ha your funny. The truth is the truth bro


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 17, 2012, 06:44:09 AM
Paul was a Pharisees. Jesus cursed the Pharisees repeatedly throughout NT. Liars, thieves, greedy, cursed, against God, etc... Just a small fact.

In one verse Jesus condemns them to hell too, calls them hypocrites many times.

Paul writing in his own letters that are now included in the bible's new testament show how he even boasts about being 'clever' at tricking people, proves in his own writings to be a hypocrite. Etc...

Paul did not live with Jesus, nor knew Jesus. He CLAIMED he 'witnessed' Jesus in his three accounts. All three of which are not equal, each time changing his accounts. A trait of a liar and a fraud.

Paul was an oppressor and bounty hunter of Jesus' followers. He was a Pharisees Jew at the service of the Romans.

How convenient that he does away with the Jews and the law of God, something the Romans tried to do for ages.

He called against what Jesus thought and preached and brought something new, hence the disciples of Jesus rejected him and never actually accepted him. They were suspicious of his intents and knew him as a fraud.

If you would please provide the boasting verses of Paul.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 17, 2012, 08:31:28 AM
NO NO NO brother, there is more then 1 verse, I believe there is 3 or 4 verses regarding Ishmael. I only used 1, so what? I also only used 1 when I said the children of Israel are Gods chosen people and there are 100s. In your first paragragh you said nothing, you keep repeating yourself that the arguments weak, Is that all you have to say on that matter. You already agreed that Arabs had a motive for starting a religion, what you wrote can never be taken back, here is what you wrote admitting Arabs had a motive for starting Islam, that is half the argument.



And again, even pointing out a motive (regardless of how weak it is, in my opinion its weak, in yours its not) is not enough.  It would be like saying "We know Y murdered her husband X because she was upset that he cheated on her."  That would not hold up in court without much stronger evidence.

The underline is a quote from bigbobs admitting the descendants of Ishmael had a motive for starting Islam

You underlined my quote as though there was something extraordinary in there.  You saying I said that you "established a motive" alone is misleading and inaccurate because I clearly indicated in the same sentence that it's a weak motive.  Even if it were a strong motive it would still be a weak argument - again you ignored the judge/murder case example I gave to show this.


In your first paragragh you said nothing, you keep repeating yourself that the arguments weak, Is that all you have to say on that matter.

What else is there to say when confronted with a weak argument other than "that's a weak argument"


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 17, 2012, 09:49:17 AM
You underlined my quote as though there was something extraordinary in there.  You saying I said that you "established a motive" alone is misleading and inaccurate because I clearly indicated in the same sentence that it's a weak motive.  Even if it were a strong motive it would still be a weak argument - again you ignored the judge/murder case example I gave to show this.

What else is there to say when confronted with a weak argument other than "that's a weak argument"
You must have missed an entire post of mine I am sure cause I address the example you gave me and now you are saying I ignored it  ???

OK OK I will correct myself then. Bigbobs did not say there was a motive fellas he said there was a weak motive  ;D


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 17, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
You must have missed an entire post of mine I am sure cause I address the example you gave me and now you are saying I ignored it  ???

OK OK I will correct myself then. Bigbobs did not say there was a motive fellas he said there was a weak motive  ;D

Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush. 

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances:  "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop."  FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.

                  








Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 17, 2012, 10:35:56 AM
Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush. 

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances:  "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop."  FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.

                  







I think if the poop was in their hands they would still not believe it was poop  ;D

The Motive was there for the Arabs to introduce Islam to the world and they would have probably not included Jesus in the Koran but to many Arabs already believed in Jesus and Jesus was an enemy of Judaism at this point so it made more sense for Muslims to incorporate Jesus in the Koran. So they did so in a clever way neglecting the resurrection and the crucifixion.

The resentment and jealousy is clear; you see the Scriptures says God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but the Koran has to change the scripture to include their own people in Gods plan so the Koran says The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael.

They have to try and feel important but they can not accept that they are just normal people not Gods chosen, hey do not feel bad guys I am not an Israelite either  ;)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Man of Steel on October 17, 2012, 10:59:45 AM
I think if the poop was in their hands they would still not believe it was poop  ;D

The Motive was there for the Arabs to introduce Islam to the world and they would have probably not included Jesus in the Koran but to many Arabs already believed in Jesus and Jesus was an enemy of Judaism at this point so it made more sense for Muslims to incorporate Jesus in the Koran. So they did so in a clever way neglecting the resurrection and the crucifixion.

The resentment and jealousy is clear; you see the Scriptures says God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but the Koran has to change the scripture to include their own people in Gods plan so the Koran says The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Ishmael.

They have to try and feel important but they can not accept that they are just normal people not Gods chosen, hey do not feel bad guys I am not an Israelite either  ;)

I have no doubt that the inclusion of "Jesus the Prophet" into the Islamic faith was a last resort because he simply couldn't be reduced to myth and then dismissed, but if he could've been eliminated from history or fully demonized he would've been.  Admittedly, the "plan b" tactic to demonize Paul was a great strategy.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 17, 2012, 12:09:03 PM
What a bunch of non-sense :) Jesus is mentioned 25 times and Muhammad is mentioned 4 times in the qur'an.

If it was from a man, Muhammad would be talking about himself, his wives, his family etc..

Clearly the NT is composed of Paul's writings, hence he keeps talking about himself like a ranting luantic  ::) Always on the defensive! Accept me! This church listen to me. That church listen to me. Disciples listen to me. I condem this church, I condemn that disciple. Of course none of Jesus' actual disciples ever accepted Paul

The qur'an speaks barely about Muhammad (pbub).


Ever wonder that maybe you are in the wrong, and just arrogant and haughty in rejecting the message of God? For some worldly gain or desires you have in you stopping you from accepting Islam? Just as some of the Jews refused to accept Muhammad because he was not a Jew. Real true envy and jealousy. Not because they did not recognize him as a prophet but because they didn't want to accept a non jew (racist).

Or certain priests that earn so much money for being priests. They may recognize that what they are teaching are lies, but they are too comfortable in commanding so many people and making wealth so they would not accept Islam to lose their power and wealth.

Ever wonder that since there is only one God Almighty, we say that we believe in one God and hence all the same prophets of the past are a must in our belief.

Paul didn't know Jesus. He never met Jesus. He never lived with Jesus. He preached contrary to Jesus' own teachings and brought totally new and foreign pagan things. The disciples of Jesus rejected him. He spent his petty life arguing trying to sway people into his personal 'gospel'


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: bigbobs on October 17, 2012, 12:22:01 PM
Means, motive and opportunity is what I see...at least at first blush. 

Regardless, in these threads I often find that 2+2=4 in some cases and in other random cases 2+2=donkey or 2+2=1000 or 2+2=fart....whatever is needed to make the argument.

I don't know, but I always go back to my grandfather in these circumstances:  "Boy, if it looks like poop, feels like poop, smells like poop and tastes like poop best bet is that you've got poop."  FYI ~ my grandfather didn't use the word "poop"....further, he was probably blowin a snot rocket while saying this too.


I agree with the bold text, that's why I view Jesus as a prophet and not God or the same entity as God, because if he says he says he is sent by God, prays to God, says his teachings are not from himself but from God, says he is not all-knowing or capable of doing anything (John 5:19), does nothing of himself but only as the father taught him (John 8:28), that he is the son of man, etc he must not be the same entity as God!


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 17, 2012, 12:32:35 PM
Matt 21:10-11 Who is this?" So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee."


Matthew 16:13-14: “When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.“Note that none of them said that Jesus is God.


Luke 7:16 “Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen up among us"; and, "God has visited His people.Note that they knew God as a separate identity and Jesus as a great prophet.


In Luke 24:19 Peter is recorded saying “And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people So according to this verse people knew Jesus as a prophet


John 6:14 “Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world." Again people considered Jesus a prophet, not a god

Matt 14:5 “ they counted him as a prophet.”

Matt 21:46 “ they took Him for a prophet.”

Matt 14:5 and 21:46 people around Jesus considered him a prophet.


Matt 13:57 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.“ About whom was Jesus talking? He, according to this verse, is referring to himself as a prophet

John 7:40-41 “Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet." V.41 Others said, "This is the Christ." In no single verse did Jesus corrected people’s opinion saying “ No, I am not a prophet, I am a god or a part of trinity “

Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed the crowd saying: “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.” (Acts 2:22). Peter, one of the closest disciples to Jesus, affirms that Jesus was just a man whom God supported by miracles and signs.

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God.  Peter said: “God raised up his servant...” (Acts 3:26). Once more, Jesus stresses that Jesus was nothing more than a servant who worshipped God.


Peter declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13)

It is clear that Peter was interested in proving to people that Jesus was no more than a servant.


All of the disciples of Jesus held this view.  In Acts 4:24 we are told that the believers prayed to God saying:“...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’”

It is clear that the one they were praying to was not Jesus, because, two verses later, they referred to Jesus as “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.” (Acts 4:27).: “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts 5:42)

In fact there is no single verse that shows that Jesus is a god or a part of trinity, in the same time, as shown, there are several verses that stress the fact that Jesus is just a prophet


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 17, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Ahmed is sooooooooooooooooo out to launch, this thread is tearing him apart so much that he has to change the subject, Paul?

Why is every thread you are in always ends up being about Paul, MOS how do you have the patients of dealing with this, this guy is always luring you into his Paul argument in every single thread.

I started this thread and I did not even mention Paul, so get over you pathetic obsession with Paul and stick to the thread since you have contributed nothing to this thread, unlike bigbobs who has brought some valid points up here.

If you do not want to then go to another thread and discuss your silly theories on Paul. This thread is about the sons of Ishmael beginning and spreading a knew religion for the sake of the Arabs, so stay on topic or go else where.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 19, 2012, 09:56:55 AM
I didn't know that when I spoke about Jesus the prophet above that I was talking about Paul?

I already addressed your original posts, I even posted a little study scan of a book. You ignored that.

You are delusional and I don't know what you are arguing for yourself anymore. You think Islam is evil and of the devil (yet oh yeah you dont hate muslims and dont hate arabs), but then at the same time trying to 'prove' something about Jews, who by the way proudly slander Mary and Jesus in the talmud. Then you want people to believe that Jesus is actually God.

You are the one that's... what shall I say? Confused?

Your whole 'argument' has little to no basis.

Abraham was not a Jew, his two sons were not Jews. From Isaac's descendant Jacob later renamed Israel come the Jews. Twelve sons. They had many blessings from God, were chosen because they believed, were cursed and punished by God for being constnatly haughty. Had many prophets sent to them but were constantly haughty. Jesus came to them from themselves and they rejected him too. In the end they became a race based religion, the message of God was 'solely' for themselves' and their 'special race'. They perverted God's ways and had no faith and only laws. JEsus came to set them straight. They rejected him. Then comes Paul and he perverts what Jesus even said or thought and starts a whole new religion mixed with paganism

From Ishmael come the Arabs. What religion did they follow? The religion of Abraham. And as Muslims we believe that too. However the arabs strayed, they became pagans, some became christians. Then Muhammad (pbuh) came and his message was for all mankind.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 19, 2012, 10:20:23 AM
clap clap calp, Abraham is not a Jew, wow you learn something everyday  ::) did you just figure that one out Hebrew  ;)


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 19, 2012, 10:50:17 AM
Just cause I feel that Saten is leading you astray does not mean I hate you bro. I have many Arab friends and they ask me to my face what I think of Muhammad and I tell them I think he is a false prophet and that is what I think, my Arab friends would still die for me, they are SOLID and I would die for them, they are my friends, they would laugh in your face for saying I hate Arabs, what, just cause I do not share their believes I hate them, c mon bro. You attack Christians, start threats and are always trying to get the upper hand and then someone turns the table and you are whining like a little baby. Face it you are a fanatic and personally i think you give Islam a bad name.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: a_ahmed on October 19, 2012, 12:02:04 PM
Threats? LOL man does everything that comes out of your mouth have to be a lie. Where did I ever 'threaten' you lol. You are getting desperate and it is becoming clear that you are very confused. Your whole premise of this thread was mal-intended. What did you think you would prove? That Muslims are on the 'wrong' because there is a verse in Jewish scripture that says "wild asses"? You think Arabs are 'jealous' and they had to make this up? Come on now. Desperation is all you have. I doubt you have any 'arab friends', much less ever met any Muslims.

We Muslims believe that there isn't a 'special race' for God like Jews. All mankind comes from Adam and hence, God has revealed his final message through Muhammad (pbuh) for all mankind not a single 'special race'

Yeah you don't hate Arabs or Muslims  ::) You only quote verses that call them wild asses and that they are following Satan  ::) So that you can prove that Arabs are 'misguided'. Strong assertions, weak arguments, weak individual.

Fear God man. You don't care what I say, even if a miracle was brought before you, you are hard headed and heading straight on into a wall head first. Think about this, who is truly misguided? You are worshipping JESUS (pbuh), a MAN, a Jewish man. You are a walking contradiction and the OT is against you.

You even think any bible besides the king james version are 'satanic bibles'. Get a grip of yourself. You are not after the truth, you are after proving to yourself that what you are doing is okay, eg; worshiping Jesus a man, denouncing God's laws,


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: Radical Plato on October 20, 2012, 01:10:42 AM
A_Ahmed is the most deluded individual I have ever come across, I suspect he is a terrorist and the authorities should be alerted.


Title: Re: The real and only reason for the birth of the Muslim religion known as Islam.
Post by: OTHstrong on October 20, 2012, 03:37:28 AM
Threats? LOL man does everything that comes out of your mouth have to be a lie. Where did I ever 'threaten' you lol. You are getting desperate and it is becoming clear that you are very confused. Your whole premise of this thread was mal-intended. What did you think you would prove? That Muslims are on the 'wrong' because there is a verse in Jewish scripture that says "wild asses"? You think Arabs are 'jealous' and they had to make this up? Come on now. Desperation is all you have. I doubt you have any 'arab friends', much less ever met any Muslims.

We Muslims believe that there isn't a 'special race' for God like Jews. All mankind comes from Adam and hence, God has revealed his final message through Muhammad (pbuh) for all mankind not a single 'special race'

Yeah you don't hate Arabs or Muslims  ::) You only quote verses that call them wild asses and that they are following Satan  ::) So that you can prove that Arabs are 'misguided'. Strong assertions, weak arguments, weak individual.

Fear God man. You don't care what I say, even if a miracle was brought before you, you are hard headed and heading straight on into a wall head first. Think about this, who is truly misguided? You are worshipping JESUS (pbuh), a MAN, a Jewish man. You are a walking contradiction and the OT is against you.

You even think any bible besides the king james version are 'satanic bibles'. Get a grip of yourself. You are not after the truth, you are after proving to yourself that what you are doing is okay, eg; worshiping Jesus a man, denouncing God's laws,
Relax bro it was a typo, I meant to put 'threads" not threats.

So I hate Muslims because I quoted my Bible?  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???