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Title: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 29, 2012, 04:15:55 PM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 29, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
Oh and since I didn't copy these references from an article there may be a typo or two, if there is let me know and I'll look it up and post the correct chapter/verse reference.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: tbombz on October 29, 2012, 10:54:55 PM
your thinking good. now just put down the fucking bullshit "bible", the bullshit "koran", and any other bullshit scripture and start thinking about these concepts on your own. then you can pick up those books again, but from a perspective that does not take them to be divine but simply something to take ideas from and youll be much better suited to learn from them.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 30, 2012, 08:55:45 AM
your thinking good. now just put down the fucking bullshit "bible", the bullshit "koran", and any other bullshit scripture and start thinking about these concepts on your own. then you can pick up those books again, but from a perspective that does not take them to be divine but simply something to take ideas from and youll be much better suited to learn from them.

Normally I would take a phrase like that as a compliment, but in this case I think it's more of an insult that someone who doesn't even know something taught in grade 2 is trying relate to me  :)

(http://memepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/difference-your-youre.jpg)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 30, 2012, 01:38:10 PM
Christians friends are unusually silent on this thread?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on October 30, 2012, 01:51:32 PM
I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 30, 2012, 02:00:14 PM
I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.

I (and all Muslims) agree with your post except for the bolded text.

Logically does it make sense to you that a perfect man (or any man) needs to be "sacrified" for others' sins?  ???

1)  For starters, is that even just?  If someone is sentenced to 25 years in jail for their crimes, can another innocent sacrifice themselves by doing the jail time instead?  No.

2)  Why does Jesus HAVE to be sacrified in order for God to forgive our sins?  God can do whatever he wants, and he is by nature very forgiving.  There is no rule of the universe that God has to answer to , which would make him not be able to forgive our sins unless Jesus died for them.

These threads that I make are not to attack Christianity but to urge Christians like yourself to step back and think logically what makes sense to you, and question whether that's consistent with what your elders or church taught you.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on October 30, 2012, 02:59:55 PM
In islam we ask for God's forgivness. God is most merciful and forgives anyone who repents and is sincere.

No need for human blood to be sacrificed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Stefano on October 30, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
In islam we ask for God's forgivness. God is most merciful and forgives anyone who repents and is sincere.

No need for human blood to be sacrificed.

Tell that to all the suicide bombers who gave their life for allah.
Its also a fact that muslims are allowed to lie to defend their faith. That describes you to a T achmutt.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 31, 2012, 11:27:34 AM
I'm baffled that none of the regular Christian posters are addressing any of the above.  Sure we've discussed some of the points in other threads, but there are many new questions that we haven't discussed before on here such as scriptural evidence of Jesus being a prophet, a verse which appears to support slavery, scriptured evidence that your fate in the afterlife is dependent on actions, etc.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on October 31, 2012, 12:13:14 PM
Tell that to all the suicide bombers who gave their life for allah.
Its also a fact that muslims are allowed to lie to defend their faith. That describes you to a T achmutt.


Oh brother, someone's been mentally deprived.

If we had to lie about our faith it would completely contradict the fact that islam is a message for all mankind and that we are obligated to speak of what islam is.

The only ones thus far lying have been zealot islamophobes.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 12:46:33 PM
I (and all Muslims) agree with your post except for the bolded text.

Logically does it make sense to you that a perfect man (or any man) needs to be "sacrified" for others' sins?  ???

1)  For starters, is that even just?  If someone is sentenced to 25 years in jail for their crimes, can another innocent sacrifice themselves by doing the jail time instead?  No.

2)  Why does Jesus HAVE to be sacrified in order for God to forgive our sins?  God can do whatever he wants, and he is by nature very forgiving.  There is no rule of the universe that God has to answer to , which would make him not be able to forgive our sins unless Jesus died for them.

These threads that I make are not to attack Christianity but to urge Christians like yourself to step back and think logically what makes sense to you, and question whether that's consistent with what your elders or church taught you.

Wish you could see how ironic this post is from my perspective  ;)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 12:54:06 PM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal. in other parts Jesus is referred to as God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which would be the difference

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.Jesus was talking to christians about christians.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.like women are equal to men, and infidels equal to muslims?

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)however in James, it says works without faith is dead

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).Yes, he was a prophet in addition to son of god and the messiah. he wore 3 hats. the christian argument is that jesus was not JUST a prophet

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.see above

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.but you believe Muhammad is a spokesperson for god, so your track record isn't all that stellar

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times. so?

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.Jesus is God in human form, temporarily seperated in some aspects

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 12:55:08 PM
Oh brother, someone's been mentally deprived.

If we had to lie about our faith it would completely contradict the fact that islam is a message for all mankind and that we are obligated to speak of what islam is.

The only ones thus far lying have been zealot islamophobes.

We expect you to say you aren't lying.. hence, you have proven his point


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 12:56:47 PM
I believe Christ is not GOD. But I do believe he was a perfect man who lived a perfect life which made him the perfect sacrifice so that all sins may be forgiven.

Might as well say you believe Jesus was a Yankees fan since you are disregarding what the bible says and fashioning your own religion


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 31, 2012, 01:38:15 PM
Might as well say you believe Jesus was a Yankees fan since you are disregarding what the bible says and fashioning your own religion

Where does the Bible specifically say Jesus is God, or better yet where does Jesus claim he is God?  He definitely claimed to be a prophet (in the verse I indicated at the start of the thread).


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 31, 2012, 01:53:48 PM


Thanks for attempting to respond to the various points, while I found your resposes weak, I decided to address most of them anyway:

Re: the use of the word "begotten" son for Jesus, I haven't even read most of the Bible and I already came across another verse which says all righteous people are "begotten."  It's in the New Testament and I have it marked in one of my bibles at home.  Won't be able to post the link until Saturday as I'm out of town until then.

Oh and there is lots of Islamic scripture that confirms all humans are equal.  You will NEVER find a verse that says "a slave is not above his master" as I showed in the book of Matthew.  And nice "defence" of the verse by trying (and failing) at suggested that the Quran has similar verses.

The argument that Jesus is both a prophet and God makes zero sense - because prophet by definition is a messenger of God.  You can't be both, by definition.

Stupid example of comparing Muhammad to Jesus where I pointed out that Jesus prayed to God, because we aren't the ones calling a prophet God.  Of course Muhammad prayed to God.  My point of saying Jesus prayed to God is to show that he is a separate entity, because no one prays to themself.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 01:56:20 PM
Where does the Bible specifically say Jesus is God, or better yet where does Jesus claim he is God?  He definitely claimed to be a prophet (in the verse I indicated at the start of the thread).

John 14:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I personally am not arguing that Jesus is god.. My comment was that if you say you believe Jesus was just a man without sin..... then you might as well say you believe he was a yankees fan because the bible does say he was more than just a man without sin


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 01:59:53 PM
It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.

•John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
•John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
•Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"


Stole that from another site...


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 31, 2012, 02:00:20 PM
John 14:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I personally am not arguing that Jesus is god.. My comment was that if you say you believe Jesus was just a man without sin..... then you might as well say you believe he was a yankees fan because the bible does say he was more than just a man without sin

Even though the verse you pasted is aggressively translated there is still no black and white declaration that Jesus is God within it.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on October 31, 2012, 02:01:26 PM
^No it does't Agnostic007

Why post manipulated verses out of context but ignore hundreds of other verses which illustrate that jesus was just a man who was vulnerable, angry, bleeding, praying, etc...

Being one with the father, aka working in the same cause not LITERALLY the same. These back and forth arguments would demonstrate as if certain Christians are trying to prove God is bipolar.

Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God according to other verses. How do you argue this? With intellect and logic not blind faith.

Jesus doesn't know things, that only God knows. Jesus cannot do things without God's permission. How do you reconcile all this?

Hence the confusion with christians some will say Jesus is God, some will say Jesus is son of God (literally), some will say Jesus is 'both' which again makes no senes, etc...

In the end not a single inconcivable verse that outright says "I Jesus, I am God Almighty", or "I am Jesus, worship ME". None. Only manipulated misinterpretations of verses alongside contradictions of other verses which show the absolute opposite.

Remember in Matthew, Jesus prayed THREE TIMES "To his God" (not to himself) and in the third attempt his companions fell asleep. So he wasn't 'trying to show them how to pray' as some christians argue for the trinity lol... he was praying to God... period. And what did he say? Not my will but yours be done? The literal meaning in Arabic of a Muslim, submitting your will to God's will.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, his own creatoin. How does GOD get tempted by his own creation, in particular satan. Offering Jesus "the world', etc... Why would GOD be tempted by the power of the world when lol.. God is the one that created the world and the devil, etc...


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 02:10:54 PM
^No it does't Agnostic007

Why post manipulated verses out of context but ignore hundreds of other verses which illustrate that jesus was just a man who was vulnerable, angry, bleeding, praying, etc...

Being one with the father, aka working in the same cause not LITERALLY the same. These back and forth arguments would demonstrate as if certain Christians are trying to prove God is bipolar.

Jesus will be seated at the right hand of God according to other verses. How do you argue this? With intellect and logic not blind faith.

Jesus doesn't know things, that only God knows. Jesus cannot do things without God's permission. How do you reconcile all this?

Hence the confusion with christians some will say Jesus is God, some will say Jesus is son of God (literally), some will say Jesus is 'both' which again makes no senes, etc...

In the end not a single inconcivable verse that outright says "I Jesus, I am God Almighty", or "I am Jesus, worship ME". None. Only manipulated misinterpretations of verses alongside contradictions of other verses which show the absolute opposite.

Remember in Matthew, Jesus prayed THREE TIMES "To his God" (not to himself) and in the third attempt his companions fell asleep. So he wasn't 'trying to show them how to pray' as some christians argue for the trinity lol... he was praying to God... period. And what did he say? Not my will but yours be done? The literal meaning in Arabic of a Muslim, submitting your will to God's will.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, his own creatoin. How does GOD get tempted by his own creation, in particular satan. Offering Jesus "the world', etc... Why would GOD be tempted by the power of the world when lol.. God is the one that created the world and the devil, etc...

You win... Jesus was not God. Now will you concede Muhammad made it all up?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on October 31, 2012, 02:20:38 PM
Muhammad (pbuh) didn't make anything up, he didn't speak of his own accord.

The new testament is largely composed of writings of Paul his 'letters', where he brags, whines, rants alot about himself and himself.

The Qur'an barely speaks of Muhammad (pbuh), only mentioned 4 times, plus one more as Ahmed. It doesn't go into details about his family or wives or whoevers. He is only delievering a message from God. The qur'an. Which reaffirms that which was before and gives guidance and principles for us all.

The biggest surah of the qur'an opens with "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah". You should read what comes forward.

One of the things that struck me while learning about Islam is a few verses later where it says people who claim they are 'peace makers' in this earth but Allah responds to them verily they are the mischief makers on this earth.

Kind of made me think about who does what on this earth. Afterall that time march 2003 there were tens of millions of people in global protests against war in Iraq and the lies that led to it. Look at us today and how much more mischief has been spread across the earth, how much more has been done.

Of course the verse doesn't speak about the "US" because the US didn't exist, but it certainly sets forth things to make us think upon.

Point being, the qur'an is not a 'book Muhammad made up' as he barely speaks about himself.

He departed this world with no wealth, and he spent his life after receiving the message at 40 through suffering and struggling as did his companions for doing what, spreadin the message that God is one.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on October 31, 2012, 02:25:19 PM
You win... Jesus was not God. Now will you concede Muhammad made it all up?

You do realize that Jesus is to Christians much different than Muhammad is to Muslims right?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on October 31, 2012, 02:47:49 PM
Christians friends are unusually silent on this thread?

Swamped at work...big deliverables and no time to post at length.  Will do my best when I free up.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on October 31, 2012, 06:34:20 PM
You do realize that Jesus is to Christians much different than Muhammad is to Muslims right?

Yes, but like the new testament, I believe the Qu'ran is about as "from God" as The Jerry Springer Show


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: tbombz on November 02, 2012, 01:33:58 PM
Normally I would take a phrase like that as a compliment, but in this case I think it's more of an insult that someone who doesn't even know something taught in grade 2 is trying relate to me  :)

(http://memepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/difference-your-youre.jpg)
a very relevant point  :)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 08, 2012, 08:59:50 AM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

At first blush this notion seems like a non sequitur so it would be helpful (to me) if you could explain more how one validates or invalidates the other.   Sure, in a very generic sense, any male could be called a “son of God”, but reliance upon a single meaning for a word or phrase that can have multiple meanings is flawed.  Most importantly, Christ repeatedly demonstrated and affirmed his divinity as has been explained repeatedly.  

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

A divine command to spread the gospel and Christ’s message of salvation and all that it entails is not a generic position of inappropriate judgment on behalf of the messenger(s).  

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

Nothing to add.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

Faith in Christ is the key to salvation, but a Christian lives out their faith and attempts to represent Jesus Christ in all that they do.  This comes back to why Jesus came as a man and left his throne.  He came as the perfect sacrifice for our sin and salvation and as an example of how we should live.  Simply claiming faith in Christ, but not living out that faith fully by following Christ’s example is a meaningless claim of faith….that’s why the ranks of Christianity are littered with nominal Christians.  Jesus knows the contents of our hearts and simply making an empty claim of faith in this life will be dealt with.

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

Jesus was the human son of Mary, carpenter, the Son of God, prophetic Son of Man, brother, friend, rabbi/teacher, prophet, Messiah and Lord……he was many things.  

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

Others he encountered referred to him as prophet, rabbi, Lord, Messiah, Son of God……all are correct.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  Prior to that (in his human state) he was weakened and humbled (as a man) and drew strength from his divine essence through prayer and also used his time of prayer as an example for us to emulate.  He lived as the perfect example of how we should live out our faith.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

Son of Man was his preferred title and a reference to the prophetic “Son of Man” designation in Daniel 7 that indicates the coming of the divine king.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

As I’ve noted previously (and within other threads), Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  In his pre-resurrected, human state he purposefully humbled and limited himself for the purpose of being the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the narrow gate to salvation and as an example for us to follow.   When he returned to his divine state and power after his resurrection he once again knew the hour of his return.

Hope this is helpful.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 11, 2012, 05:33:56 AM
1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal. in other parts Jesus is referred to as God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which would be the difference  

Sorry for the late reply, was at work without my marked Bible at home when you posted this, and from then I was out of town for much of the time also forgot to look up the verse I had previously marked.

Anyway 1 John 2:29 reads "If you consider that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who acts in righteousness is begotten by him."  

Therefore the argument that Jesus is unique in being referred to as "only begotten son" simply isn't true, as the above verse clarifies that all who are righteous are "begotten children."


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 11, 2012, 05:53:02 AM
At first blush this notion seems like a non sequitur so it would be helpful (to me) if you could explain more how one validates or invalidates the other.   Sure, in a very generic sense, any male could be called a “son of God”, but reliance upon a single meaning for a word or phrase that can have multiple meanings is flawed.  Most importantly, Christ repeatedly demonstrated and affirmed his divinity as has been explained repeatedly. 

Yet you haven't been able to provide a single example from scripture to show this, other than a few ambigious verses which you interpret how you want and simply conclude that our interpretation is flawed.  Something so fundamental as Christ's divinity would surely have been stated in black-and-white in scripture if it were true.
  

Nothing to add.

Nothing to add to 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master?"  So you're not objecting that your religion promotes slavery or inequality?


Jesus was the human son of Mary, carpenter, the Son of God, prophetic Son of Man, brother, friend, rabbi/teacher, prophet, Messiah and Lord……he was many things.  

Others he encountered referred to him as prophet, rabbi, Lord, Messiah, Son of God……all are correct.

Some of those titles by definition contradict others and therefore is not possible to be all things at once.  For example, a prophet by definition can not be the same as God.  Just look up the definition of prophet if you're unsure


As I’ve noted previously (and within other threads), Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  In his pre-resurrected, human state he purposefully humbled and limited himself for the purpose of being the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the narrow gate to salvation and as an example for us to follow.   When he returned to his divine state and power after his resurrection he once again knew the hour of his return.

Hope this is helpful.

Noting something in previous threads does not make it true, plausible or even scriptural.

Yes it was helpful in that it reinforced to me that the general Christian view on Jesus, the Trinity and salvation can not be defended against logic and the Bible itself.  It also helps make me feel confident that I can reiterate these arguments to other Christaians without facing a valid rebuttal (because if there was one I'm sure you would have used it by now). So I do thank you for that reassurance.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 10:27:01 AM
Yet you haven't been able to provide a single example from scripture to show this, other than a few ambigious verses which you interpret how you want and simply conclude that our interpretation is flawed.  Something so fundamental as Christ's divinity would surely have been stated in black-and-white in scripture if it were true.
  
Nothing to add to 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master?"  So you're not objecting that your religion promotes slavery or inequality?

Some of those titles by definition contradict others and therefore is not possible to be all things at once.  For example, a prophet by definition can not be the same as God.  Just look up the definition of prophet if you're unsure

Noting something in previous threads does not make it true, plausible or even scriptural.

Yes it was helpful in that it reinforced to me that the general Christian view on Jesus, the Trinity and salvation can not be defended against logic and the Bible itself.  It also helps make me feel confident that I can reiterate these arguments to other Christaians without facing a valid rebuttal (because if there was one I'm sure you would have used it by now). So I do thank you for that reassurance.

Feel free to post the ambiguous verses I've cited and we can discuss them more and hopefully get some some more context and clarity for you.

No, nothing to add here.  The fundamental tenets of Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed so I didn't engage in an indepth comparision of Islam and Christianity based on that single statement in this thread, but we can discuss the differences in the tenets of both faiths if you'd like to and I'll do my best.

The folks Christ encountered often referred to him as a prophet and he did make prophetic statements.  Other said he was demonic. Still, make no mistake that Christ is our risen God and his very unique, special purpose as a man on Earth had him wearing multiple hats (for lack of better words)....it's possible only because he is God...that simple really.

You are correct that noting a previous thread doesn't make something true, plausible or scriptural, but it does note that fact that the point has been discussed repeatedly and that I'm restating that here.

It's absolutely your choice to take that position.  I completely understand that as a Muslim, as a representative of Islam, this is what you must do.  You must tear down Christianity because if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is rendered utterly meaningless...the Islamic attack on Christianity is essential.  Plus the disturbing death penalty for apostasy is incredibly difficult to negotiate.  I'm highly sympathetic towards the Muslim community, but if  you would like to speak more about salvation through Christ I'm happy to do so....the Holy Spirit is a powerful presence to have in your life.



Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 10:40:56 AM
Feel free to post the ambiguous verses I've cited and we can discuss them more and hopefully get some some more context and clarity for you.

If your quotes were not ambigious you would have pasted them here to prove me wrong.  There is no quote from Jesus claiming to be God in the Bible and this is a known fact which you know as well.  On the contrary Jesus went to lengths to teach that he is NOT God, but differentiating and belittling himself below God while in the Bible never speaking of the Trinity or claming that God is triune and he's included in the godhead.  I don't think its a worthwhile way to spend my time by searching your old posts and repasting your ambigious evidences and once again re-refuting them.


The folks Christ encountered often referred to him as a prophet and he did make prophetic statements.  Other said he was demonic.

Unfortunately for you I'm not only referring to what "folks" called Christ, but what Jesus himself said of himself, I'll repaste:

Matthew 13:57 "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."  Here Jesus is calling himself a prophet upon entering Bethlehem while noting that he was not given his due honor.

You expect that Jesus would tell us that he is a prophet, yet condemn us to hell for not believing to the contrary that he was God?

It's absolutely your choice to take that position.  I completely understand that as a Muslim, as a representative of Islam, this is what you must do.  You must tear down Christianity because if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is rendered utterly meaningless...the Islamic attack on Christianity is essential.  Plus the disturbing death penalty for apostasy is incredibly difficult to negotiate.  I'm highly sympathetic towards the Muslim community, but if  you would like to speak more about salvation through Christ I'm happy to do so....the Holy Spirit is a powerful presence to have in your life.



I'm not required to tear down Christianity, I do it it with my own desire to bring people to the truth and to have them rationalize and question what really makes sense, rather than blindly following what their parents or church taught them since childhood.  

Re: the death penalty for apostasy I believe the majority opinion is that it is not a valid law.  From Wikipedia:

"In modern times, some Islamic scholars, including Wael Hallaq, state that apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[13] Several modern scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[6][14] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[15] Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto[7] and Shabir Ally.[16] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[17]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][18][19] Ahmad Shafaat,[20] Jamal Badawi,[10] Yusuf Estes,[21] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[22] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji."




Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 11:50:26 AM
If your quotes were not ambigious you would have pasted them here to prove me wrong.  There is no quote from Jesus claiming to be God in the Bible and this is a known fact which you know as well.  On the contrary Jesus went to lengths to teach that he is NOT God, but differentiating and belittling himself below God while in the Bible never speaking of the Trinity or claming that God is triune and he's included in the godhead.  I don't think its a worthwhile way to spend my time by searching your old posts and repasting your ambigious evidences and once again re-refuting them.

Unfortunately for you I'm not only referring to what "folks" called Christ, but what Jesus himself said of himself, I'll repaste:

Matthew 13:57 "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."  Here Jesus is calling himself a prophet upon entering Bethlehem while noting that he was not given his due honor.

You expect that Jesus would tell us that he is a prophet, yet condemn us to hell for not believing to the contrary that he was God?

I'm not required to tear down Christianity, I do it it with my own desire to bring people to the truth and to have them rationalize and question what really makes sense, rather than blindly following what their parents or church taught them since childhood.  

Re: the death penalty for apostasy I believe the majority opinion is that it is not a valid law.  From Wikipedia:

"In modern times, some Islamic scholars, including Wael Hallaq, state that apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[13] Several modern scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[6][14] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[15] Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto[7] and Shabir Ally.[16] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[17]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][18][19] Ahmad Shafaat,[20] Jamal Badawi,[10] Yusuf Estes,[21] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[22] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji."




As I said in my last, please post the verses (I've posted previously) that you've found ambiguous and we can discuss them more and hopefully gain more context and clarity.  I just don't know which verses you are referring to.....there's been lots of posts, lots of threads and lots of verses.  I didn't repost anything here because I've already posted and reposted a number of items.....my post history is available to all.  

You keep trying to hit me with "AH HAH" moments by posting verses about Christ calling himself a prophet, but Christ referred to himself as a prophet in other verses to.  It's all there in the NT LOL....there's nothing hidden or denied.  He also referred to himself as king and as God.  He was many things while on Earth, but above all he is divine.  Accepting some verses and denying others because it doesn't fit an agenda just isn't acceptable, but I understand the reason why it must be done.

A couple verses I haven't posted before (at least I don't recall posting them):

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I'm certainly no expert on Islam, but I do know there are varied opinions on positions of apostasy, "the sword verse", etc....still, it's a bit scary to think that although the majority may not  hold to a "death for apostasy" stance that some Muslims do.  It's those sects that are dangerous for Christian and Muslim alike.

I should note that the majority of Christian theologists/teachers don't typically allow their students to justify their positions based upon Wikipedia references.  I'm not saying that what you posted is incorrect and that all of Wikipedia is flawed, but the majority of scholarship tends to avoid it's use.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
He also referred to himself as king and as God.  A couple verses I haven't posted before (at least I don't recall posting them):

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Unless you have some type of magic goggles that I'm not wearing, I don't see any quote of the bolded text in the two verses you posted?  :)


I'm certainly no expert on Islam, but I do know there are varied opinions on positions of apostasy, "the sword verse", etc....still, it's a bit scary to think that although the majority may not  hold to a "death for apostasy" stance that some Muslims do.  It's those sects that are dangerous for Christian and Muslim alike.

I should note that the majority of Christian theologists/teachers don't typically allow their students to justify their positions based upon Wikipedia references.  I'm not saying that what you posted is incorrect and that all of Wikipedia is flawed, but the majority of scholarship tends to avoid it's use.

I'm no expert either, from my limited understanding I believe the misunderstanding that apostates must be killed today is due to the fact that some hadiths indicated historically that this was considered treason, a crime which is also punishable by death in many parts of the world today (Canada and US too I believe).  Why was denouncing one's faith considered treason?  Because back then Muslims were united under a single nation, as were other religious groups, and virtually all members of each nation were part of the army so to speak.  So leaving Islam usually meant leaving the army and joining another, a form of treason, and in these cases it was punishable by death, again similar to what we have in north america today.  Perhaps Ahmed knows better than me, but that's my understanding.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 12:24:31 PM
Unless you have some type of magic goggles that I'm not wearing, I don't see any quote of the bolded text in the two verses you posted?  :)

I'm no expert either, from my limited understanding I believe the misunderstanding that apostates must be killed today is due to the fact that some hadiths indicated historically that this was considered treason, a crime which is also punishable by death in many parts of the world today (Canada and US too I believe).  Why was denouncing one's faith considered treason?  Because back then Muslims were united under a single nation, as were other religious groups, and virtually all members of each nation were part of the army so to speak.  So leaving Islam usually meant leaving the army and joining another, a form of treason, and in these cases it was punishable by death, again similar to what we have in north america today.  Perhaps Ahmed knows better than me, but that's my understanding.

When Christ referred to himself as I AM, he was referring to his eternal name spoken to Moses in the OT.   "I AM" is the eternal name of God.

Exodus 3:13-15
New Living Translation (NLT)

13 But Moses protested, “If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ they will ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what should I tell them?”

14 God replied to Moses, “I Am Who I Am.[a] Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.

This is my eternal name,
    my name to remember for all generations.

That's a pretty bold claim for a prophet.

Ok, so the position of "death for apostasy" was more of a claim by Muhammad in the Hadith, but not necessarily scripture from the Qu'ran?  I learned something new today.....who am I kidding?  I learn something new almost everyday.   So as I understand it, in some sects the Hadith is considered as sacred as the Qu'ran, but not in others, correct?  


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 12, 2012, 02:07:31 PM
The "I am" part does not say "I am God" LMAO... it just says before Abraham was "I AM" which as most christians and jews know is how God called himself to the people. It does not mean Jesus called himself this

and the 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That just indicates that they are hawty and do not really believe, they reject Jesus, they reject him as from God. As many past nations and later even those around Muhammad (pbuh) were. Rejecting the prophets  and messengers of God, drenched in sin and disbelieving, rejecting the word of God

As far as the ruling for apostasy it does exist in the bible as it exists in Islam. Except the rulings in the bible are far more harsh. Christians were killing 'heretics' all the time.

The difference is, according to Islam, the ruling first time came when the hypocrites and disbelievers would pretend to embrace Islam by day and leave Islam by night, non-stop, so to demoralize the Muslims, they really did not become Muslim.

As such when the ruling came they were cowards and wouldn't pretend no more.

Secondly anyone who as an act of treason betrayed the Muslims and started fighting the Muslims he would be punishable by the law of apostasy.

Treason has always been punishable under any nation.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 12, 2012, 02:16:38 PM
You can only fool yourself and others who don't know

Lets look at the other verses to further shed some light:

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Just as Muhammad (pbuh) and every other prophet and messenger did!

Indeed you must have some magical goggles like bigbobs said... you want to see the trinity in everything when it's not there, it does not exist and there is no such thing, only in your wishful thinking.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 02:21:02 PM
The "I am" part does not say "I am God" LMAO... it just says before Abraham was "I AM" which as most christians and jews know is how God called himself to the people. It does not mean Jesus called himself this

and the 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That just indicates that they are hawty and do not really believe, they reject Jesus, they reject him as from God. As many past nations and later even those around Muhammad (pbuh) were. Rejecting the prophets  and messengers of God, drenched in sin and disbelieving, rejecting the word of God

As far as the ruling for apostasy it does exist in the bible as it exists in Islam. Except the rulings in the bible are far more harsh. Christians were killing 'heretics' all the time.

The difference is, according to Islam, the ruling first time came when the hypocrites and disbelievers would pretend to embrace Islam by day and leave Islam by night, non-stop, so to demoralize the Muslims, they really did not become Muslim.

As such when the ruling came they were cowards and wouldn't pretend no more.

Secondly anyone who as an act of treason betrayed the Muslims and started fighting the Muslims he would be punishable by the law of apostasy.

Treason has always been punishable under any nation.

I had 2 verses....please explain this following:

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 12, 2012, 02:22:43 PM
And to shed some more light just for the BAM factor:

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

^Because the jews were rejecting Jesus as a prophet and messenger, they wanted to kill him.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 12, 2012, 02:23:32 PM
I had 2 verses....please explain this following:

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



I already did scroll up. it doesn't say "I AM GOD" it says before abraham was "I AM" which means before Abraham was God. I am as you yourself explained is what God refered to himself to be called by the Jews. Yahweh.



It's amazing what happens when you don't quote just one line, but read what's in between! I posted those in betweens all above, showcasing Jesus saying he was sent by God, he is following only what God told him to do, he even refered to himself as son of man, etc... lol

Stop this trinity delusion bro... it's not good for you.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 02:26:25 PM
You can only fool yourself and others who don't know

Lets look at the other verses to further shed some light:

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Just as Muhammad (pbuh) and every other prophet and messenger did!

Indeed you must have some magical goggles like bigbobs said... you want to see the trinity in everything when it's not there, it does not exist and there is no such thing, only in your wishful thinking.
Great, you've added some additional verses in addition to a mandatory ahmed insult, but as usual forgot an explanation. 

Christ made it clear that the Son of God submits to the Father and we also now that the Son of God as a man was purposefully limited in power and knowledge, but no less divine.  The limited form was purposefully chosen not forced. 

So, again explain the additional verses and leave out the patented ahmed insults and jabs.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
And to shed some more light just for the BAM factor:

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

^Because the jews were rejecting Jesus as a prophet and messenger, they wanted to kill him.

You should really consider verse 44 carefully ahmed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 12, 2012, 02:32:34 PM
I already did scroll up. it doesn't say "I AM GOD" it says before abraham was "I AM" which means before Abraham was God. I am as you yourself explained is what God refered to himself to be called by the Jews. Yahweh.



It's amazing what happens when you don't quote just one line, but read what's in between! I posted those in betweens all above, showcasing Jesus saying he was sent by God, he is following only what God told him to do, he even refered to himself as son of man, etc... lol

Stop this trinity delusion bro... it's not good for you.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect.  

Exodus 3:15
New Living Translation (NLT)

15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh,[a] the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.

This is my eternal name,
    my name to remember for all generations.

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Double use of "I am" in verse 58....indicates Jesus' eternal existance and affirmation that he is "I am".

And LOL to taking verses out of context....oh please ahmed.....PLEASE....pot meet kettle.  I posted some much context around your cherry picked verses I've probably posted half the NT.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 12, 2012, 02:57:45 PM
I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 04:37:47 PM
I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...

When faced with scripture where Jesus clearly indicates he was sent by God, inferior to God, etc. Man of Steel replies (without scriptural backup) to explain that Jesus and God are the same entity, one a form which was intentionally limited and spoke to himself despite this having bipolar implications.

Anyone who is reading this can use their own common sense to see whose interpretation of scripture makes most sense.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
Regarding the "Before Abraham was, I am" line, MOS I don't see how you can interpret this as being Jesus claiming he is God.

I interpreted from your post that you were suggesting that God's name is "I am"?  Correct me if I'm wrong.  But then you quoted support that His name is "Yahweh" and not "I am?" 

Even if God's name was "I am" substituting Jesus for "I am" would make the verse read, "Before Abraham was, Jesus."  This still would not be a declaration from Jesus that he is God.

Like I said, ambigious and debatable verses you give since there is no black and white scripture to support your belief that Jesus was God.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on November 12, 2012, 05:18:53 PM

Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
 

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
 

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
 

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 06:00:47 PM
Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
 

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
 

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
 

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.


Welcome scottt, can you please elaborate what your purpose of posting the above verses is, or your interpretation of them?  Especially the text I bolded.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on November 12, 2012, 06:06:56 PM
I hate the trinity teaching.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 12, 2012, 06:53:28 PM
I hate the trinity teaching.

I don't blame you, it goes against Biblical scripture.  Sounds like your view on Jesus and God is not much different than what Muslims believe of Jesus and God?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on November 12, 2012, 07:26:07 PM

 



 

We must pray to God in Jesus’ name because this is the only way God has approved for us to approach Him. Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Jesus also told his faithful apostles: “Most truly I say to you, If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.”—John 16:23.
 

 We honor Jesus and his Father, Jehovah God.—Philippians 2:9-11.
 We show that we appreciate Jesus’ death as God’s provision for our salvation.—Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12.
 We recognize Jesus’ unique role as Intercessor between God and men.—Hebrews 7:25.
 We respect Jesus’ service as the High Priest who can help us gain a good standing with God.—Hebrews 4:14


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 13, 2012, 01:13:32 PM
I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...

Ok, fair enough, I stand behind scripture.  To prevent the "quote hopping" bit, I'll post the entire chapter around a verse from now on.  I expect you'll do the same correct?  


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 13, 2012, 01:30:40 PM
Regarding the "Before Abraham was, I am" line, MOS I don't see how you can interpret this as being Jesus claiming he is God.

I interpreted from your post that you were suggesting that God's name is "I am"?  Correct me if I'm wrong.  But then you quoted support that His name is "Yahweh" and not "I am?" 

Even if God's name was "I am" substituting Jesus for "I am" would make the verse read, "Before Abraham was, Jesus."  This still would not be a declaration from Jesus that he is God.

Like I said, ambigious and debatable verses you give since there is no black and white scripture to support your belief that Jesus was God.

"I am that I am" in Hebrew is translated "hayah" that is connected to the derivation of Yahweh; in essence "I AM" is Yahweh (translated as Jehovah) which is the eternal name of God.  So as you mentioned, "substituting Jesus for 'I am' would make the verse read, 'Before Abraham was, Jesus.'  That said, Jesus = I AM = Yahweh = Jehovah = God.   


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 13, 2012, 01:33:01 PM
Didn't I rule on this a couple weeks ago?.. ;)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 13, 2012, 01:38:24 PM
Didn't I rule on this a couple weeks ago?.. ;)

Please don't take offense, your posts are appreciated and life changing....my wife and I read aloud from your post history just last night!  :D


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 13, 2012, 02:16:15 PM
Please don't take offense, your posts are appreciated and life changing....my wife and I read aloud from your post history just last night!  :D

Ok..that one did crack me up.. nice job ;)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 13, 2012, 02:20:18 PM
"I am that I am" in Hebrew is translated "hayah" that is connected to the derivation of Yahweh; in essence "I AM" is Yahweh (translated as Jehovah) which is the eternal name of God.  So as you mentioned, "substituting Jesus for 'I am' would make the verse read, 'Before Abraham was, Jesus.'  That said, Jesus = I AM = Yahweh = Jehovah = God.   

Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 13, 2012, 04:30:10 PM
Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.

Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 14, 2012, 08:40:57 AM
Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.

agreed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 10:22:41 AM
Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.

Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.

It's ok that you don't agree with me....you're free to do so. 

Ravi Zacharias gave me a great reminder the other day that the mission of Christ is love and how incredibly difficult it is at times to love others that insult, mock, attack and belittle believers in Christ, but I'm going to do my level best to spread the message of salvation through Christ and love those that clearly have nothing but disdain for me.  This isn't the first, second, third, fourth or fifth time either I've encountered these situations and it certainly won't be last.

That said, my Muslim brothers, I've now reached the unfortunate, undesired point in which it is time for me to shake the dust from my feet.

God Bless

MOS


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 14, 2012, 11:12:46 AM
It's ok that you don't agree with me....you're free to do so.  

Ravi Zacharias gave me a great reminder the other day that the mission of Christ is love and how incredibly difficult it is at times to love others that insult, mock, attack and belittle believers in Christ, but I'm going to do my level best to spread the message of salvation through Christ and love those that clearly have nothing but disdain for me.   This isn't the first, second, third, fourth or fifth time either I've encountered these situations and it certainly won't be last.

That said, my Muslim brothers, I've now reached the unfortunate, undesired point in which it is time for me to shake the dust from my feet.

God Bless

MOS

I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 14, 2012, 11:27:59 AM
I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.

Kinda of the beauty and disdain of the bible in a nutshell .. so much is vague, contradictory and confusing that anyone can interpret pretty much what they want from it. Which explains the multitude of denominations


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 14, 2012, 11:54:06 AM
I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you :)

Kinda of the beauty and disdain of the bible in a nutshell .. so much is vague, contradictory and confusing that anyone can interpret pretty much what they want from it. Which explains the multitude of denominations and the need for the subsequent revelation from God in order to guide us (the Quran) which does not contain such contradictions and confusion.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 12:40:35 PM
I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.

No, let me be clear that you have not been ugly or inappropriate....that was clearly directed at ahmed.  Still, it is time for me to discontinue the back and forth as it holds no value for the audience.  It's more appropriate that I share the gospel with others as y'all have clearly made your choice for Islam.  

I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you :)

"and the need for the subsequent revelation from God in order to guide us (the Quran) which does not contain such contradictions and confusion."

No confusion or ambiquity whatsoever  ;) :

Sura 91
By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
By the Moon as she follows him;
By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
By the Night as it conceals it;
By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
And he fails that corrupts it!
The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing,
Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety).
But the Apostle of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, high and low)!
And for Him is no fear of its consequences.


Sura 97
We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:
Peace!...This until the rise of morn!


Sura 105
Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?
Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?
And He sent against them Flights of Birds,
Striking them with stones of baked clay.
Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.


Sura 109
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.


Sura 111
Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!
No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!
Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame!
His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-
A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!




Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 14, 2012, 02:17:05 PM
No, let me be clear that you have not been ugly or inappropriate....that was clearly directed at ahmed.

Unfortunately you find it insulting that I say that you are preaching pantheism and polytheism. In fact what you have in a few parts preached has been even far off from Christian dogma and doctrine. Your whole premise is to try to induce people to accept that a human being is God and through creative ways explain the trinity but how can one explain something that is untrue?

Quote

No confusion or ambiquity whatsoever  ;) :

Sura 91

This surah is rather short and is poetic in nature, you obviously do not appreciate it and obviously don't know the story it relates as it is unknown to you personally.

It then describes the fate of Thamud, a formerly prosperous extinct Arab tribe. The prophet Saleh urged them to worship God alone, and commanded them in God's name to preserve a certain she-camel; they disobeyed and continued to reject his message, and God destroyed them all except those who had followed Salih.

They were sent a she-camel as a miracle, but ultimately killed it in ridicule disobeyed the commandments given to them and disobeyed the prophet who kept warning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash-Shams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh

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Sura 97

Speaks of laylatul qadr, the night of power which is a time found within the last ten days of ramadan. It is the night of decree. It has much significance for us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laylat_al-Qadr

Quote
Sura 105
Again you are not familiar with the story therefore its 'ambiguous' to you.

It was an army sent forth to destroy the kaba before Islam. "The year of the elephant" and it is also the year when Muhammad (pbuh) was born. A plot by a Christian viceroy from sabaa in yemen. It was his plot to take over the arabs and force them to accept christianity. It was a reminder from God to the qureish how God protected them when they could have been wiped out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fil

Quote
Sura 109
A beautiful surah nothing ambigious at all. It is a verse which we could recite to you and quite the closure indeed. As it says oh you who reject faith, I do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what I worship. Nor will I worship that which you worship (a human) nor will you worship what I worship (God).

It is a general verse when disagreement comes between believers and disbelievers.

There is a hadith of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and this verse when the pagan qureish offered Muhammad women, power, wealth, to be even the king of the arabs, etc... and he rejected them and said he would not trade faith even if the sun and the moon were put in his palms.



Quote
Sura 111
Yet again since you don't know the story, it relates to the accursed abu lahab, abu jahal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_Al-Masadd


It is the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh) who was a staunch pagan and opponent of Islam. He was also known as abu lahab.

A promised curse in the hellfire. Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal used to joke that they would embrace islam to prove untrue the qur'an and Muhammad's revelation. Yet they did not. They remained disbelievers and this surah remains true. They died as accursed disbelievers.


They tortured and persecuted muslims till the day they were killed in battle.

They were the greatest enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) yet they were his uncles! Abu lahab used to throw garbage in the house of Muhammad (pbuh), anything and everything horrible you can imagine this man tried to do upon Muhammad, Islam, Muslims, etc... he took pleasure in torture of Muslims.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 04:19:18 PM
Unfortunately you find it insulting that I say that you are preaching pantheism and polytheism. In fact what you have in a few parts preached has been even far off from Christian dogma and doctrine. Your whole premise is to try to induce people to accept that a human being is God and through creative ways explain the trinity but how can one explain something that is untrue?

This surah is rather short and is poetic in nature, you obviously do not appreciate it and obviously don't know the story it relates as it is unknown to you personally.

It then describes the fate of Thamud, a formerly prosperous extinct Arab tribe. The prophet Saleh urged them to worship God alone, and commanded them in God's name to preserve a certain she-camel; they disobeyed and continued to reject his message, and God destroyed them all except those who had followed Salih.

They were sent a she-camel as a miracle, but ultimately killed it in ridicule disobeyed the commandments given to them and disobeyed the prophet who kept warning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash-Shams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh

Speaks of laylatul qadr, the night of power which is a time found within the last ten days of ramadan. It is the night of decree. It has much significance for us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laylat_al-Qadr
Again you are not familiar with the story therefore its 'ambiguous' to you.

It was an army sent forth to destroy the kaba before Islam. "The year of the elephant" and it is also the year when Muhammad (pbuh) was born. A plot by a Christian viceroy from sabaa in yemen. It was his plot to take over the arabs and force them to accept christianity. It was a reminder from God to the qureish how God protected them when they could have been wiped out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fil
A beautiful surah nothing ambigious at all. It is a verse which we could recite to you and quite the closure indeed. As it says oh you who reject faith, I do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what I worship. Nor will I worship that which you worship (a human) nor will you worship what I worship (God).

It is a general verse when disagreement comes between believers and disbelievers.

There is a hadith of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and this verse when the pagan qureish offered Muhammad women, power, wealth, to be even the king of the arabs, etc... and he rejected them and said he would not trade faith even if the sun and the moon were put in his palms.


Yet again since you don't know the story, it relates to the accursed abu lahab, abu jahal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_Al-Masadd


It is the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh) who was a staunch pagan and opponent of Islam. He was also known as abu lahab.

A promised curse in the hellfire. Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal used to joke that they would embrace islam to prove untrue the qur'an and Muhammad's revelation. Yet they did not. They remained disbelievers and this surah remains true. They died as accursed disbelievers.


They tortured and persecuted muslims till the day they were killed in battle.

They were the greatest enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) yet they were his uncles! Abu lahab used to throw garbage in the house of Muhammad (pbuh), anything and everything horrible you can imagine this man tried to do upon Muhammad, Islam, Muslims, etc... he took pleasure in torture of Muslims.

Ambiguous and confusing....sura 109 reads like dialogue for Chrissy Snow's character on Three's Company.  The fact that you had to explain it and surround it all in context or call it beautiful doesn't mean much......these passages are extremely ambiguous and confusing context or not.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 14, 2012, 04:26:59 PM
No it shows that I know what is being mentioned and that you don't hence maybe you're just ignorant of the background story and copy pasted it because you saw it somewhere mentioned like that?  ::) It helps to read the whole qur'an, read the commentary (which is readily available) and the seerah (the historical accounts, biography, etc... relating to Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), his companions, etc...) and not be some random dude on the internet that decides to copy paste something.

If you narrated some bible story to someone about some dude with a boat and had a few poetic lines, to say a hindu. He would go who? What are you talking about? Because he's clueless about that story.

Likewise if some hindu narrated about the 'gods' and how they had family disputes, you would go wait what? Cousin who?

It takes reading to know things, you don't just hop to copy paste. Believe me if someone took a bible and randomly opened it somewhere, they would go what the hell is going on.

Your weak attempt at giving yourself credit, still doesn't change the fact there isn't a single statement showcasing the trinity being preached by Jesus or Jesus claiming he is God almighty. Only your ambigious selection and interpretation of verses.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 04:59:01 PM
No it shows that I know what is being mentioned and that you don't hence maybe you're just ignorant of the background story and copy pasted it because you saw it somewhere mentioned like that?  ::) It helps to read the whole qur'an, read the commentary (which is readily available) and the seerah (the historical accounts, biography, etc... relating to Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), his companions, etc...) and not be some random dude on the internet that decides to copy paste something.

If you narrated some bible story to someone about some dude with a boat and had a few poetic lines, to say a hindu. He would go who? What are you talking about? Because he's clueless about that story.

Likewise if some hindu narrated about the 'gods' and how they had family disputes, you would go wait what? Cousin who?

It takes reading to know things, you don't just hop to copy paste. Believe me if someone took a bible and randomly opened it somewhere, they would go what the hell is going on.

Your weak attempt at giving yourself credit, still doesn't change the fact there isn't a single statement showcasing the trinity being preached by Jesus or Jesus claiming he is God almighty. Only your ambigious selection and interpretation of verses.

Actually I'm in the middle of a book on Islam at the moment and thinking about ordering another book as well for another perspective.  Been praying a lot about it as well.  

The history of Islam and all its tenets have been highly interesting to learn about....has put a TON of things in perspective.  

I've watched hours and hours of debates online as well....many hosted by the Muslim community and many by the Christian community.  Almost all the Muslims engaging in the debates react exactly like you do; basically, regardless of the evidence the Muslim is infallible and everyone else that disagrees is deemed completely wrong...every time.  Either you're in full agreement or you're an insane moron.  Many times I've watched these debates and wondered, "Why are these Christian men versed in these situations (and Islam) engaging in these debates when they know the result already?"  Then I realized it's about reaching others not the participants....the Muslim debate participants have clearly made their choice, it's about everyone else.  Now, there are some Muslim debators that are highly engaging and respectful, but one Muslim debator began a rant and ended with "Christian dogs!!"....it was fun...and telling.  

Will I take time to read the entire Quran?  I'll have to pray about that before I would engage in such an activity.  I have read sections of it online, but not the entire book.  When I begin to deep dive a bit I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 14, 2012, 05:19:38 PM
Quote
I'll have to pray about that before I would engage in such an activity.  I have read sections of it online, but not the entire book.  When I begin to deep dive a bit I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I became Muslim after studying Christianity in depth and other religions in depth. But the qur'an ultimately answered all my questions I had about the bible, trinity and all the other doubts I had. You cannot appreciate the uniqueness and beauty of the qur'an if you have preconceived notions. It is poetic yet it is not poetry. It is so simpleton and simple, yet filled with meaning. Something so deep can be explained so very simplistic for the most illiterate man to understand and feel in the depth of his soul.

Obviously certain things you may not understand if you do not have a background understanding and that is true for anything and everything but the resources are available as I have mentioned.

Reading the qur'an with tafsir, reading the seerah. Listening to some lectures BY muslims on the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions.

Remember the qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years and each revealed verse had a purpose and setting. Past, present and future-tense.

When I wanted to find answers I put my trust in God, not my preconceived or shaped notions be it by my priest, church, pastor or whoever.

The fact remains, Jesus never thought the trinity and Jesus never proclaimed he is God. That's why you need to debate it and try to prove it to others as Bigbobs said, over pages and pages of debates and argumentation. The fact is if you study christian history you will see that this very topic was debated by the roman church and for how long? People were killed over it!

On the other hand we Muslims don't have a problem, we say God is one, the creator and not the creation. The end. No need for debate it's crystal clear.

If you want to be a scholar on the qur'an it helps to study in depth and that takes years of scholarship. However a Christian claiming to be a 'scholar' of islam will always be indeed twisted with preconcieved notions, hence our knowledge of Islam comes from learned Muslim scholars.

Even a work such as the full volume of commentary on qur'an with all explanations, defintiions, etc... spans volumes:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591440203?ie=UTF8&tag=wweb-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1591440203

This is just one from ibn khatir. However this is the DETAILED volume. Simple layman commentary exists to give background understanding of who, where, when, what is being talked of in the qur'an.

This being said, it does not take scholarship to understand the simple beauty and message of Islam.

It is the same as for example non-muslims quoting verses from the qur'an and not knowing their context then claiming things about Islam! Such as, the 'fighting verses' and how it is to 'kill all unbelievers'. It's ignorant.

However as a former Christian I know that even Christians do this to the bible! EVERY Christian will interpret the bible as they see fit... hence Christianity has become a religion of convenience. That is why amongst Christians you will always find uncertainty on trinity, who God is, who Jesus is, etc... Everyone will give their own version.

I found this a great problem as a Christian. How can God's word be flawed, contradicting, lying to me, etc..? God does not lie, God does not confuse, only humans do this!


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 05:42:00 PM
I became Muslim after studying Christianity in depth and other religions in depth. But the qur'an ultimately answered all my questions I had about the bible, trinity and all the other doubts I had. You cannot appreciate the uniqueness and beauty of the qur'an if you have preconceived notions. It is poetic yet it is not poetry. It is so simpleton and simple, yet filled with meaning. Something so deep can be explained so very simplistic for the most illiterate man to understand and feel in the depth of his soul.

Obviously certain things you may not understand if you do not have a background understanding and that is true for anything and everything but the resources are available as I have mentioned.

Reading the qur'an with tafsir, reading the seerah. Listening to some lectures BY muslims on the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions.

Remember the qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years and each revealed verse had a purpose and setting. Past, present and future-tense.

When I wanted to find answers I put my trust in God, not my preconceived or shaped notions be it by my priest, church, pastor or whoever.

The fact remains, Jesus never thought the trinity and Jesus never proclaimed he is God. That's why you need to debate it and try to prove it to others as Bigbobs said, over pages and pages of debates and argumentation. The fact is if you study christian history you will see that this very topic was debated by the roman church and for how long? People were killed over it!

On the other hand we Muslims don't have a problem, we say God is one, the creator and not the creation. The end. No need for debate it's crystal clear.

If you want to be a scholar on the qur'an it helps to study in depth and that takes years of scholarship. However a Christian claiming to be a 'scholar' of islam will always be indeed twisted with preconcieved notions, hence our knowledge of Islam comes from learned Muslim scholars.

Even a work such as the full volume of commentary on qur'an with all explanations, defintiions, etc... spans volumes:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591440203?ie=UTF8&tag=wweb-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1591440203

This is just one from ibn khatir. However this is the DETAILED volume. Simple layman commentary exists to give background understanding of who, where, when, what is being talked of in the qur'an.

This being said, it does not take scholarship to understand the simple beauty and message of Islam.

It is the same as for example non-muslims quoting verses from the qur'an and not knowing their context then claiming things about Islam! Such as, the 'fighting verses' and how it is to 'kill all unbelievers'. It's ignorant.

However as a former Christian I know that even Christians do this to the bible! EVERY Christian will interpret the bible as they see fit... hence Christianity has become a religion of convenience. That is why amongst Christians you will always find uncertainty on trinity, who God is, who Jesus is, etc... Everyone will give their own version.

I found this a great problem as a Christian. How can God's word be flawed, contradicting, lying to me, etc..? God does not lie, God does not confuse, only humans do this!

I spent years questioning "am I really a Christian....do I really believe this".  It was in the solitude of my home (when I was alone and unable to leave and move much for months) and within the solitude of my hospital room in which I truly the encountered the Holy Spirit and surrendered completely to it.  Like you I have had incredible dreams, but the more important experiences have happened when I'm fully awake in private moments of prayer and worship.  No churches, no priests, no pastors, no audience, no wife, no child....just me and the Lord.

Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  I was conflicted by that very thing for many weeks until I earnestly prayed about it and the Holy Spirit revealed to me my flaws and gave me clarity.

All things have been created through Jesus Christ, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  I know I will never ever convince you of the reality of the Holy Spirit and I accept that now.

You're also right that scholarship takes years of study, but tangibly experiencing the life changing presence of the Holy Spirit takes only moments.  Still, I know I will never convince  you of that fact and I accept that now.

You're also right that experiencing the beauty and simple message of the Quran doens't take years of study, but because that simple message stands in direct opposition to salvation through our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that simple message is clearly sourced from the ruler of this world.  Again, I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Christians are trinitarian monotheists believing in one God, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

You're also right that God doesn't lie or contradict himself, but the ruler of this world moves about like a roaring lion looking to devour his prey.  He is the ultimate master of deception that has convinced multitudes that Jesus is not the way, that he was not resurrected, that he is not God, that it's about works and that salvation through Christ is not needed.  Again, I know I will never convince you that this is the case and I accept that now.

That said, I regrettably shake the dust from my feet and move on.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Agnostic007 on November 14, 2012, 05:42:28 PM
I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you :)


Well, there seems to be a problem with the quran. There are people who read it and take from it some very bad things. They don't agree with you on what some of the contents mean. They would/will die defending their version, believing it is from god. So you don't get off that easily.    


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on November 14, 2012, 06:13:46 PM
I spent years questioning "am I really a Christian....do I really believe this".  It was in the solitude of my home (when I was alone and unable to leave and move much for months) and within the solitude of my hospital room in which I truly the encountered the Holy Spirit and surrendered completely to it.  Like you I have had incredible dreams, but the more important experiences have happened when I'm fully awake in private moments of prayer and worship.  No churches, no priests, no pastors, no audience, no wife, no child....just me and the Lord.

What you have discovered is that God is near us all, in every situation, and our life has purpose and meaning. Not coincidence or chance. All of us ultimately experience this. Whether its some sort of epiphany or self exploration, etc... I have been through this myself many of us have. Even bigbobs have, but that's his personal story.

You have just from only knowing christianity accepted the idea that it is the 'trinity' or 'holy spirit'

Even hindus have these experiences, but they falsely attribute it to vishnu, hanuman, and their many idols.

It doesn't change the fact that God is present and exists. Just that humans in their own lack of knowledge attribute to God that which is not.

God provides for those that believe and disbelieve. Teaches, heals and provides for all mankind even if we are ungrateful and haughty.

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Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  I was conflicted by that very thing for many weeks until I earnestly prayed about it and the Holy Spirit revealed to me my flaws and gave me clarity.

No you convinced yourself of this and keep repeating it. That's not proof. If we are to look for PROOF it must come from somewhere.

If it weren't for your education in the trinity, you would not know or believe in the trinity. Period.

Just as I told you, my dream, how can you interpret someone telling you that there is only one God that THEY ARE God even though they are merely a messenger to you as Jesus was in my dream?

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All things have been created through Jesus Christ, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Again, an emotional statement back by your own wishes not facts. Jesus was created and was in the womb of mary for 9 months. Created by God, chosen by God, sent by God, doing God's commandments and serving God all as mentioned  according to the new testament.

So you make claims that sound like they are scriptural but they are not at all. Only your own utterance bro.

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I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  I know I will never ever convince you of the reality of the Holy Spirit and I accept that now.

Because I understood that there are no such things. Jesus never thought such things. Jesus never thought the trinity. He thought what we Muslims believe. God is one. Not trinity.

Quote
You're also right that scholarship takes years of study, but tangibly experiencing the life changing presence of the Holy Spirit takes only moments.  Still, I know I will never convince  you of that fact and I accept that now.

Again as mentioned earlier, it doesn't take more than a few moments to realize God exists if you find faith through self exploration, thats how we all come to it. So have I. I used to sit alone, I used to sit on a bus and observe people, observe the trees and all things in nature, look at the sky, be fascinated by science and how things work, amongst othe rthings. I used to ponder on our existence, ourselves as humans and many many other htings. However despite you coming to the same conclusion as I and many others have come to, you are falsely attributing things TO God...

Quote
You're also right that experiencing the beauty and simple message of the Quran doens't take years of study, but because that simple message stands in direct opposition to salvation through our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that simple message is clearly sourced from the ruler of this world.  Again, I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Have you ever for a second thought that perhaps Pauline teachings are not really God's teachings and contradict Jesus' teachings?

Salvation comes through obedience to God, obedience to the messengers and through good works. Jesus himself said you will enter the kingdom of God through good works and be condemned to hell otherwise.

The church has twisted the message of Jesus and enforced the personal teachings of Paul.

Do you realize what illogic and lack of justice it is to say that a man who supposedly was God, commited suicide and all this to 'save' humanity'. There is no need for human sacrifice or God to 'sacrifice himself' amongst other beliefs to 'save' anybody.

Islam teaches differently yes, that we are saved by faith in God, by mercy of God and by our good works. Quite similar to what Jesus himself preached not what paul or the church preached.

Quote
Christians are trinitarian monotheists believing in one God, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

But that is an oxymoron. You cannot convince me of it because I know Jesus didn't teach it. As I said I studied Christianity in depth and what I found was man made law and man made teachings not Jesus' teachings or God's teachings or law.

As one atheist once told me, christianity is a religion of convenience. Where you shape God and shape what is Godly as you see fit. Hence everyone's christianity is different and everyone's understanding of God and Jesus is different.

Quote
You're also right that God doesn't lie or contradict himself, but the ruler of this world moves about like a roaring lion looking to devour his prey.  He is the ultimate master of deception that has convinced multitudes that Jesus is not the way, that he was not resurrected, that he is not God, that it's about works and that salvation through Christ is not needed.  Again, I know I will never convince you that this is the case and I accept that now.

I think you misunderstand the true concept of 'salvation' and instead like many christians preach to the emotional masses that you just have to 'accept' Jesus in your heart and you are 'saved'. It is a bullet riddled statement bro...

It gets people emotionally hooked but is far from reality.

It's an unjust and unreal concept.

Jesus thought that everyone will be judged, on the earth he said I judge thee when speaking to those around him as a messenger as all messengers dictated what is right and wrong.

He thought that there is a heaven for those that succeed and a hell for those that are condemned and evil. He talked of good works. He talked of embracing and fulifilling God's law, he thought God's law.

The reality is, if paul did not exist, we muslims are 100% behind Jesus as we in fact are. There is nothing contradictory to Jesus' teachings to Islam. In fact we are closer to Jesus in his teachings than the church and paul are to Jesus.

After all what is the definition of Muslim and Islam? One who submits his will to God and submission to the will of God. What did Jesus repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat over and over again about himself? The exact same statement. Not my will but your will.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 14, 2012, 07:14:49 PM
Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  

You may have convinced us of it if there was a clear scriptural indication of this, but since there is no such existence you're right you will never convince us simply with your interpretations of scripture which state otherwise.



I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  

I'm not sure if you meant that you have doubt that Ahmed may not be a former Christian or not, but if it helps at all I can verify that I've met Ahmed recently and can confirm what he's saying is true.  He is white, not like your typical born-Muslim and with no accent either.  Very friendly guy in person too :)  I know this is all online stuff to you so it doesn't offend me if you don't believe us, but I'm just sharing my word for what it's worth.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 14, 2012, 07:15:41 PM
Well, there seems to be a problem with the quran. There are people who read it and take from it some very bad things. They don't agree with you on what some of the contents mean. They would/will die defending their version, believing it is from god. So you don't get off that easily.    

There is no problem with the Quran, even if some people "take from it very bad things."  In these instances it's those "some people" who have a problem but not the religion itself.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 14, 2012, 07:27:25 PM
Fellas, I'm done....dust from my feet.  


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on November 14, 2012, 07:54:56 PM
Fellas, I'm done....dust from my feet.  

Despite our differences in beliefs I do wish the best for you in this life and the hereafter.  You are a lot more respectful in debate than some Christians I have met.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on November 15, 2012, 07:57:17 AM
Despite our differences in beliefs I do wish the best for you in this life and the hereafter.  You are a lot more respectful in debate than some Christians I have met.

And of course the same to you.  It's just time to end our discussion on these topics as choices have clearly been made, but I'll certainly respond to your other posts and questions....that's all good.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: tbombz on November 17, 2012, 10:18:25 PM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

if one so desired, they could read anything and make it mean whatever they wanted it to.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 11, 2013, 06:45:25 AM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

John 19:6-7
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”  But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-14
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 11, 2013, 08:45:11 AM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)


Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Griffith on January 13, 2013, 04:34:35 AM
Your choice of religion is due to your cultural background and desire for a sense of 'belonging'.

Consciously you might reject this, but unconsciously this is what is guiding you.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: anabolichalo on January 13, 2013, 06:32:23 AM
i often read the bible when i'm in church and the sermon is boring me

a lot of it is difficult to put into context

i think you need a lot of preliminary knowledge before reading this in the right context


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 14, 2013, 11:07:31 PM
Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

John 19:6-7
6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”  But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

The title "son of God" is used a lot in the Bible and not only towards Jesus, but also Adam (Luke 3:38), Solomon (2 Samuel 7:13-14 and 1 Chronicles 22:10), followers or God (Romans 8:14) and entire nations (Deuteronomy 14:1, 1 John 3:1-2).  Therefore, even if the accusation by the Jewish leaders was correct, that does not in itself mean that Jesus must be a literal son of God, otherwise Adam, Solomon, etc. would carry the same status as Jesus.

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So the author of John 5:18 believes that calling God one's father makes himself equal to God?  Not really sure where you were going with this verse.  If you're trying to suggest that calling God father makes one equal to God, this belief can easily be dismissed by the many verses where Jesus tells us that God is "our" father, ex. "Do not call anyone on earth "father," for you have one father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9).  Now if calling God "father" means one is claiming to be equal to God, this would mean that Jesus is telling us that we are all equal to God, which he obviously would not say.

John 10:30-33
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

I addressed this one before, will paste my response here:

Someitmes to show solidarity with my wife I say "My wife and I are one."  This does not mean we are literally one being.  But I'm guessing you're also thinking that the fact the opponents started throwing stones on Jesus and saying "because you, a mere man, claim to be God" is evidence.  However, you conveniently skipped the verses before and after this excerpt.  Looking before, verse 24 shows that the Jews were asking him if he is the Christ (not asking him if he was God), to which he confirmed that he is (note Christ does not equal God because the title is used for other humans (Isaiah 45:1, Cyrus of Persian is called God's Christ, just one example).  So they ask Jesus if he is Christ and he replies Yes, then they stone him and accuse him of claiming to be God.  In response (in verse 34) "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods?"  If he called them "gods" to whom the word of God came - and the scripture cannot be broken - what about one whom the Father setapart as his very own and sent into the world.  Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son?"  So here Jesus explains that even if he had said something which they misinterpreted to mean that Jesus is claiming to be God (ex. confirming that he is Christ), they should realise that some human beings were called "gods" in the Bible (ex. Psalms 82:6-8) which shows God has honoured some human beings by calling them "gods."  This is just a figurative expression, but Jesus was reminding the Jews who were stoning him so that they should understand that even if he says something that they take as him claiming to be god, they should take it as a figurative expression.


John 14:8-9
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Also responded to this before, pasting it again:  "But in John 5:37 Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time.  1 John 4:12 also says that no one has ever seen God.  If Jesus was God, then whoever has seen Jesus would have seen God.  The verses above you posted, saying "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" mean that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus taught about God.


John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Again, not sure where you're trying to go with this verse?  
  
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:9-14

Again, not sure where you're trying to go with this verse?  

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

"One and only son" does not make sense, because there are numerous others who also bear the title "son of God" in the Bible.  I'm not surprised that John 1:14 contains such a contradiction, as contradictions are rampant in the Bible.   That's a whole other topic which we can get into.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 09:07:29 AM
bigbobs,  are you going to respond to this?

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)


Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
bigbobs,  are you going to respond to this?

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Loco with at least half or your posts towards me asking for a response, I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make to get me to respond to.  Instead of just typing a bunch of verses with some phrases bolded, if you can add some discussion as to what you're suggesting these verses mean, and how they contradict my views on the Bible, I woudl then have something to work off of and send you a response.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 12:14:53 PM
Loco with at least half or your posts towards me asking for a response, I honestly don't even know what point you're trying to make to get me to respond to.  Instead of just typing a bunch of verses with some phrases bolded, if you can add some discussion as to what you're suggesting these verses mean, and how they contradict my views on the Bible, I woudl then have something to work off of and send you a response.

That's interesting!  You had no problems responding to my other posts that were no different.  The Bible verses I posted directly contradict everything that you said about the Bible on salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 02:12:17 PM
That's interesting!  You had no problems responding to my other posts that were no different.  The Bible verses I posted directly contradict everything that you said about the Bible on salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 02:32:19 PM
Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?

What?  I thought you were saying the opposite.  My apologies!  We agree, at least on this.      ;D


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 02:40:57 PM
What?  I thought you were saying the opposite.  My apologies!  We agree, at least on this.      ;D

Ahh okay, that's great  ;D

So we agree that Christianity teaches that faith alone and not actions will determine where you spend the afterlife.  Next question, which I imagine we disagree on - do you think this is at all just or fair?  Ex. evil person who accepted Jesus as his saviour before dying goes to heaven regardless of sins committed compared to nice person who does lots of good deeds but did not believe Jesus was God, say he believed Jesus is a prophet such as myself?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 02:45:58 PM
Ahh okay, that's great  ;D

So we agree that Christianity teaches that faith alone and not actions will determine where you spend the afterlife.  Next question, which I imagine we disagree on - do you think this is at all just or fair?  Ex. evil person who accepted Jesus as his saviour before dying goes to heaven regardless of sins committed compared to nice person who does lots of good deeds but did not believe Jesus was God, say he believed Jesus is a prophet such as myself?

No, we agree that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ alone and not actions will determine where you spend the after life.  I posted the Bible verses, and you agreed they say that. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 03:31:09 PM
No, we agree that the Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ alone and not actions will determine where you spend the after life.  I posted the Bible verses, and you agreed they say that. 

No offence but I find you confusing :)

Is there a reason why you didn't answer my question in my immediately prior post?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 15, 2013, 03:50:27 PM
It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 03:50:52 PM
No offence but I find you confusing :)

Is there a reason why you didn't answer my question in my immediately prior post?

I wanted to clear up what it is that we agree on before answering your question.

Why do you find me confusing?



Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 03:52:34 PM
It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.

What about these verses then?  bigbobs agrees they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 03:54:47 PM
What about these verses then?  bigbobs agrees they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 03:58:24 PM
Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.

Thank you! 

So you doubt their accuracy because they do not align with your religion?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 03:59:01 PM
I wanted to clear up what it is that we agree on before answering your question.

Why do you find me confusing?



Because you post verses without explaining why and expect me to know what you're asking me to respond to.  Then you say we agree then disagree on the same topic


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 03:59:57 PM
Thank you!  

So you doubt their accuracy because they do not align with your religion?

The bigger reason I doubt their accuracy is because it is simply unjust and unreasonable (Ahmed just explained in detail as to why).

Another reason I doubt its accuracy is because other Biblical verses indicate that actions determine where you will spend eternity.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 04:02:44 PM
It's not a matter of confusion it's a matter of some christians (most) making up what they believe as they go.. because according to scripture it go anyway/bothway ..

I know for a fact deeds and good works are mentioned as necessitie, as necessity to even enter kingdom of God, etc...

But every christian is always confused the only ones that are 'certain' are evangelical types which out of their own personal conviction say they are gaurenteed heaven for worshipping Jesus. Not scriptural evidence just blind faith.

We've gone back and forth on this issue too.

In Islam on the other hand it is so simple. No you do not enter heaven by deeds alone, but by God's mercy HOWEVER out of justice God will judge everyone justly, reward and punish based on our deeds. God can forgive all sins if he so wills, except shirk which is idolatry/partnership with God such as worshipping a man.

As was stated many times, what about the many criminals who profess 'faith' in jeus as their 'personal savior' and god but they kill, steal, rape, etc...

No, it's illogical and unjust.

Nor is it just that ONE MAN has to SUFFER for ALL mankind. Imagine you murder someone and i'm like no ill be your savior, i will take your sins you murder, its okay, i will go in your place you are saved. Imagine if the court justice system worked like that. Impractical and unjust.

This is indeed a topic which many Christians are confused about and contradict each other.  Depending on which Christian I talk to, some will say that faith alone will get you to heaven regadless of sins or good deeds you perform, some say "you need to accept Jesus but you also can't sin," etc


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 04:04:36 PM
This is indeed a topic which many Christians are confused about and contradict each other.  Depending on which Christian I talk to, some will say that faith alone will get you to heaven regadless of sins or good deeds you perform, some say "you need to accept Jesus but you also can't sin," etc

So Christians disagree, as do many Muslims, as do many Jews.  Big deal.

But all Christians agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 04:09:13 PM
So Christians disagree, as do many Muslims, as do many Jews.  Big deal.

But all Christians agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins.  

LOL Muslims do NOT disagree over something so fundamental as whether faith alone, or a combination of faith and actions, determine your destiny.  Our differences in interpretation are over minor aspects.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 15, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 04:22:21 PM
LOL Muslims do NOT disagree over something so fundamental as whether faith alone, or a combination of faith and actions, determine your destiny.  Our differences in interpretation are over minor aspects.


LOL...Muslims don't kill each other over religious stuff, ever?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 04:23:00 PM
You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

You interpret the Bible and the Quran to fit your own belief system.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

x2 but a religion needs non-contradictory scripture to achieve this, something that can not be claimed of the Bible.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 15, 2013, 04:32:53 PM
You interpret the Bible and the Quran to fit your own belief system.

Nope I read the bible with the intention of being a better Christian. I read it with no preconceived notions read it for what it says. You are the one that skips what you want but blindly follows what you desire such as the trinity which is no where in the bible. A historical fact that it was only fully formulated 400 years after Jesus, only began to be 'debated' officially 300 years after (such as who was/is Jesus, who is God) etc...

I read the qur'an and it was the primary thing to make me want to become a Muslim. It answered my many questions and problems with the bible and just reaffirmed what was. It is the true word of God.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 04:51:40 PM
You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

Why does this confuse you?  Even bigbobs agrees that this supports salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.   

You say you must do "the works God requires" in order to go to Heaven.  Well, Jesus says you must believe in him.  That is the "good work" or "good action" that God requires in order to go to Heaven.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 15, 2013, 05:00:31 PM
And therefore I answered we Muslims also believe that you MUST accept the messengers and prophets of God, this is a mandatory action and deed, a true part of faith. Otherwise rejection is the opposite of faith. We do not reject the prophets or messengers of God. in order to be Muslim we must accept Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Noah, the whole line of prophets and messengers

Scripture is not going in your favour its going in the favour of what islam teaches, not what the church teaches.

You are the one that will reinterpret something like this and make it mean "AAH but it means through accepting Jesus you are saved and thats it! ITS FAITH!" Or whatever other non-sense. I can't even formulate that non-sense in words. The reason it becomes non-sense is the way you present it is so skewed because you mix truth and falsehood in the same kettle.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 15, 2013, 05:05:55 PM
Why does this confuse you?  Even bigbobs agrees that this supports salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.  

Dont put words in my mouth.  I said that certain verses can be interpreted as such (i.e. they do not concretely state your interpretation and there still confusion over their meaning), and this is coupled with other Biblical verses which contradict your interpretation.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 15, 2013, 06:38:35 PM
Dont put words in my mouth.  I said that certain verses can be interpreted as such (i.e. they do not concretely state your interpretation and there still confusion over their meaning), and this is coupled with other Biblical verses which contradict your interpretation.



Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 15, 2013, 07:23:38 PM
See I wana hear it point blank no playing around with verses or words.

Do you guys think an evil person who commits evil actions in this world but accepts Jesus as his savior is going to heaven or hell? Point in case, he continues to do evil deeds yet professes that Jesus is god, his savior, salvation etc... Come clean.

That's why I always say you play on words to fool people emotionally. Love, salvation, my personal saviour, faith in the holy spirit, the holy spirit dwells through me, I am saved, all emotional catchy phrases but what are the facts? No need to toy with and manipulating verses.

The verses contradict your beliefs or at least, the verses contradict themselves back and forth.

Straight up.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 09:34:18 AM
x2 but a religion needs non-contradictory scripture to achieve this, something that can not be claimed of the Bible.

The Qur'an is full of contradictions, Muslims disagree on its interpretations, and it's a text from one man who claimed to have received it from an angel who claimed to have received it from God.    


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 16, 2013, 10:21:24 AM
Only righteous people will be saved.even the Devil believes in Jesus and Jehovah.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 10:40:54 AM
Only righteous people will be saved.even the Devil believes in Jesus and Jehovah.

What about this criminal?

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 16, 2013, 10:54:04 AM
He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 16, 2013, 10:57:54 AM
Loco similar to how you pick, choose and interpret what you want from the Bible, you do the same with my posts ;)

Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be  interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.

The bigger reason I doubt their accuracy is because it is simply unjust and unreasonable (Ahmed just explained in detail as to why).

Another reason I doubt its accuracy is because other Biblical verses indicate that actions determine where you will spend eternity.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 16, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.

So you're saying God and Jesus are two separate entities?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 11:08:19 AM
He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.

But you said "Only righteous people will be saved"

Are you saying that a criminal's faith in Jesus will be counted as righteousness? 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 16, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
No, I am not. Faith without works is dead. Only Jesus can make the judgement, he read the hearts of those criminals on the cross (were sinners like us) but they were very different. Its hard for us to understand because we can only judge what we see, not whats on the inside.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 16, 2013, 11:27:39 AM
So you're saying God and Jesus are two separate entities?

Christians worship one God and Christianity is monotheistic.  We serve a single God whose transcendent, eternal being is represented by 3 coequal, coeternal persons.  Please keep in mind that the term "persons" should not be considered or treated in a human capacity.  This is a means to define the trinitarian essence of God for the sake of human understanding.  God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are not each 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 of God or 1+1+1=1 (fallacy).....mathematically its better expressed as 1x1x1=1.  The trinity of God is not 3 separate deities.  Think of it in terms of time...past, present and future.  We don't have 3 separate "times", we just have time.  Time is again expressed in three coequal parts...past, present and future.  God is eternal, God is one.  The term "trinity" is not found in scripture, but the essence of God being expressed in the trinity of father, son and spirit is absolutely revealed in scripture.  Believers have attempted to capture that under the umbrella of the term "trinity".  Coining term "trinity" did not "invent the trinity".  The 3rd century councils did not invent the "trinity".  Paul did not "invent the trinity".  Scripture reveals the trinity.  Christ revealed the trinity.  Christ revealed his message to Paul via divine revelation.  The disciples affirmed Paul's ministry.  Do sects of believers deny the trinity?  Yes.  Are they correct?  No.  Are there debates amongs differing sects of virtually every religion/theology?  Yes.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 16, 2013, 11:35:32 AM
See I wana hear it point blank no playing around with verses or words.

Do you guys think an evil person who commits evil actions in this world but accepts Jesus as his savior is going to heaven or hell? Point in case, he continues to do evil deeds yet professes that Jesus is god, his savior, salvation etc... Come clean.

That's why I always say you play on words to fool people emotionally. Love, salvation, my personal saviour, faith in the holy spirit, the holy spirit dwells through me, I am saved, all emotional catchy phrases but what are the facts? No need to toy with and manipulating verses.

The verses contradict your beliefs or at least, the verses contradict themselves back and forth.

Straight up.
Me, I don't believe the person is a believer.  Doesn't represent Christ and has an unrepentant heart.  Simply "saying the words" doesn't make it so.  God knows the contents of our hearts.

ahmed, I can only speak for myself, but there's virtually nothing else to say to you anymore.  You don't believe, you won't believe and you've found your truth in Islam.  You're here to defend Islam and ridicule Christians....straight up.    


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 16, 2013, 11:55:01 AM
The trinity has its roots in ancient Babylons false religion. Jesus had a prehuman existence with his Father in Heaven and prayed to him while he was with us on earth. Why would a God pray to himself?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 12:19:53 PM
No, I am not. Faith without works is dead. Only Jesus can make the judgement, he read the hearts of those criminals on the cross (were sinners like us) but they were very different. Its hard for us to understand because we can only judge what we see, not whats on the inside.

Faith without works is dead?  I agree, but what good works did the criminal at the cross do?  And Can Jesus not read your heart today?

I agree with you that if a person sincerely believes in Jesus, that person will do good works as a result of his/her faith, unless they are about to die like the criminal on the cross.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 16, 2013, 12:29:37 PM
The trinity has its roots in ancient Babylons false religion. Jesus had a prehuman existence with his Father in Heaven and prayed to him while he was with us on earth. Why would a God pray to himself?

It's also said that the trinity has roots in the ancient Egyptian trinity.  Or that Christ is based on the god Mithra or Horus or Zeus, etc....

For the same reason that Jesus said he didn't know the hour of his return....only the Father knows that.  So, does this contradict Jesus' deity?  Not even a little bit.  Why did the Son of God come to Earth in the form of man and live among his creation as any man would?  He came to fulfill what Israel could not in the OT while at the same time establishing a new covenant with man.  Christ came and submitted to the Father so that we may recognize how we should submit to God's will.  He fellowshipped with men, he ate with men, he traveled with men, he taught men, he lived as a man.  But make no mistake, Jesus Christ is God.  Christ forgave sins, Christ raised the dead, Christ healed the sick, Christ commanded demons, Christ miracously fed multitudes.  Christ affirmed his deity and gave undeniable examples of his deity, but didn't return to his glory until after he was crucified and rose.  Before his resurrection he chose to live as man, but fully connected to his divine Fatherly essence in heaven.  Based on that connection, he did the impossible and affirmed that he was God while still existing in a limited form as a man - a limited existance he choose.  As a man he maintained his connection with his divine essence through prayer, but his act of prayer was also an example for man to follow.  He lived as a man so that we may understand how to live and submit to God.  Why did he also choose this limited state as a man?  Simple, because God can't die (he is eternal), but a God who limits his form to that of a normal man can die.  He came as the perfect man, the perfect sacrifice that died for all forgiving all sins for those that claim him as their risen Lord and Savior.  After his resurrection his returned to his full glory and power as the divine Son of God that always existed at the right hand of the Father.  As the resurrected Son of God he was transformed and those closest to him didn't recognize him at first because he transformed into his divine state.  He then displayed the divine ability to instantly move from place to place as only God can and reclaimed his omniscient status as the Son of God who knows all things.

John 11:41-42
41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”




Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 01:31:44 PM
Quote
the same reason that Jesus said he didn't know the hour of his return....only the Father knows that.  So, does this contradict Jesus' deity?  Not even a little bit.

Sure it does, it makes God unable to know something if he is god which he is not. Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time. That's why your argument has so little validity and credibility.

When you go and say "I have the holy spirit dwelling in me I am convinced" it really is meaningless.

Ironically the 'holy spirit' was not even talked about until 400 years after Jesus in part to this 'trinity'. The council of nicea 300 years after Jesus only talked about who is/was Jesus and who is God.

So you see.. no matter how you spin it, Jesus is not God and your arguments fall apart.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 01:59:55 PM
John 11:41-42
41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”

What does this prove? That They have a psychic connection and are one? No not at all.

As in the qur'an it says “And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

That's it. God knows what is in us, what we think, what we wish upon, what we are thankful for, what we intend.

Jesus affirming his loyalty to God does not make him God lol... all messengers of God spoke about being sent by God for the one and same purpose, guiding people to the truth, worshipping God, avoding evil and doing good. Guidance for mankind.

Your statement even goes against you "That you sent me" well well... doesn't say that "I sent myself" does it.

You love to use elusive quotes and interpret them in weird ways, yet the reality is the scripture proves far more what Islam indicates than what you are trying to say you believe. Jesus over and over differentiates himself from God and that's not exactly in your favor.

When I say differentiates I mean they are NOT the same, jesus is NOT God, but a servant of God. THe quote 'same in purpose' well all messengers have the same purpose sent by God. You see how much more sense that makes than saying OH that must mean Jesus is God if he is in the same purpose as God.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 02:03:04 PM
Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

bigbobs,

So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them.  

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Why did Jesus not correct Thomas?  Why did Jesus not stop Thomas from worshiping him?  Why did Jesus not say "I am not God"?

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

John 9:38-39
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

If Jesus were a mere prophet of God, he would have immediately stopped any worship directed at him.  Even angels do this:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Now that you see Jesus allowed people to worship him, and now hat you have admitted that people called Jesus God to his face, please find me in the Bible where Jesus is quoted saying "I am not God."


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:19:54 PM
Still even for sake of argument if that were true it does not indicate Jesus told them to worship him or proclaimed himself to be literally God lol.

Again, it's really hard to have any credibility in the verses you post as they are once again contradicted and confusing from other verses which totally do 180 turns on the very things you are trying to preach.

In the end though, there's far more verses of Jesus teaching others worshipping God than all the elusive wanabe verses of Jesus being god.

To me it's an epic fail that 'god' supposedly does not know things and is supposedly 'god'.

Or God worships himself, or whatever non-sense.

ALSO lol, I doubt Jesus said "GREETINGS" lol.. as the actual greeting of the Jews was shalom aleykum like muslims say. That's why in masses we used to say "peace be upon you", "and peace be with you". Ever wonder why? lol.

Interestingly enough this is the greeting of Muslims peace be upon you. Assalamu Alaikum.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:22:26 PM
AND to prove how you own yourself:

Mattityahu 28:9 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)


Mattityahu 28:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

 And hinei! Moshiach met them, saying Shalom Aleichem. And they came up and took hold of his feet and fell prostrate before him.

One cannot even TRUST what you post based on translation. I checked a few different translations and all said weird 'greetings', 'hail', 'hello' lol... and here we are... shalom aleichem... just as I said :)

Falling prostrate before him and translating that as 'worshipping him'. Saying HELLO, or HAIL, or GREETINGS, instead of shalom aleichem. :)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 02:28:17 PM
AND to prove how you own yourself:

Mattityahu 28:9 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)


Mattityahu 28:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

 And hinei! Moshiach met them, saying Shalom Aleichem. And they came up and took hold of his feet and fell prostrate before him.

One cannot even TRUST what you post based on translation. I checked a few different translations and all said weird 'greetings', 'hail', 'hello' lol... and here we are... shalom aleichem... just as I said :)

Falling prostrate before him and translating that as 'worshipping him'. Saying HELLO, or HAIL, or GREETINGS, instead of shalom aleichem. :)

Actually, you just owned yourself.  Shalom is a greeting.  So translating it into English as Jesus saying "Greetings" is no problem at all.

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?   ::)

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:29:25 PM
Yochanan 9:38-39
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
38 And the man said, Ani ma’amin, Adoni. And he fell down prostrate before him.
39 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said, For the sake of Mishpat, I came into the Olam Hazeh, that the ones who are ivrim (blind ones) may see, and the ones seeing may become ivrim.

Same deal here! hah! Deliberate mistranslations! How unsurprising!

Actually, you just owned yourself.  Shalom is a greeting.  So translating it into English as Jesus saying "Greetings" is no problem at all.

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?   ::)

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  

No actually Shalom means peace and the full greeting is Shalom Aleichum, you just owned yourself in ignorance as usual.

sha·lom  
/SHäˈlōm/
Exclamation
Used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”.


Just as your ignorance of thinking God in the royal plural indicates the trinity. As usual ignorance and arrogance.

Oh small bit you may also not know. Aleichum is plural too see the um at the end. It is proper to say peace be upon you in the plural to people so in respect instead of saying you in the singular to the person because if there are many people in the gathering it addresses everyone.

The same is in Arabic with Alaikum (you plural) vs addressing someone in the singular.

It is one of many beauties of these semetic languages.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:34:47 PM
Also this small tid bit came to me efore being Muslim. As during mass we used to say peace be upon you and also with you when entering/leaving. I found it indeed a beautiful greeting when coming for mass.

It made me wonder, then as I was learning about Islam and came upon this very same fact that Jews say the same thing and that JESUS (pbuh) used to say the same thing. A simple beautiful revelation.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 02:34:50 PM
Yochanan 9:38-39
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
38 And the man said, Ani ma’amin, Adoni. And he fell down prostrate before him.
39 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said, For the sake of Mishpat, I came into the Olam Hazeh, that the ones who are ivrim (blind ones) may see, and the ones seeing may become ivrim.

Same deal here! hah! Deliberate mistranslations! How unsurprising!

No actually Shalom means peace and the full greeting is Shalom Aleichum, you just owned yourself in ignorance as usual.

sha·lom 
/SHäˈlōm/
Exclamation
Used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”.


Just as your ignorance of thinking God in the royal plural indicates the trinity. As usual ignorance and arrogance.

You really love to argue for the sake of argument, don't you?    ::)

Shalom (שָׁלוֹם) (Sephardic Hebrew/Israeli Hebrew: shalom; Ashkenazi Hebrew/Yiddish: sholom, sholem, shoilem, shulem) is a Hebrew word meaning peace, completeness, Prosperity, and welfare and can be used idiomatically to mean both hello and goodbye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalom

And why would they fall prostrate before him if not to worship him?  Did they all just trip and fall at the same time?    ::)

And you just admitted that the verses I posted do support Jesus Christs deity, by saying that you know of other verses which contradict the ones I posted.  




Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
lol argue all you want shalom means peace not hello or good bye, it is for the lame English speaking crowd. The very link you posted right off the bat confirms what I said. It means PEACE.

Still shows how things are mistranslated. What is more important is how prostrating or falling down was translated as WORSHIPPED him. :) Right before looking it up, I was like I bet Jesus didn't actually say HAIL or GREETINGS as some translations put it as I KNOW the greeting was shalom aleichum. However my intention was to showcase the 'worshipped him'


People fell before Muhammad (pbuh) and at his feet too. That does not mean they worshipped him as God.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 02:39:55 PM
lol argue all you want shalom means peace not hello or good bye, it is for the lame English speaking crowd. The very link you posted right off the bat confirms what I said. It means PEACE.

Still shows how things are mistranslated. What is more important is how prostrating or falling down was translated as WORSHIPPED him. :)


People fell before Muhammad (pbuh) and at his feet too. That does not mean they worshipped him as God.

LOL

Shalom is a greeting.  Now you are just trolling, so I'll ignore you and proceed to debate the other Muslims on the board, who seem genuinely willing to debate and not just argue and insult.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:40:23 PM
Mattityahu 14:33
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
33 And the ones in the sirah (boat) fell down before Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, saying, Beemes (Actually) you are the Ben HaElohim!

"Worshipped him" huh?

So your argument just fell hard.

I just don't see any credibility of you posting verses whether it's due to problems of translations or various versions of scripture or bibles, or whether due to the fact that other verses completely do 180 turns destroying your arguments.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 16, 2013, 02:43:08 PM
Loco I'm going to respond to your quotes which you asked me to quite a while ago, but before I do I want to clarify that there's no denying that yes there are some instances of people in the Bible having called Jesus God, but not a single declaration/quote from Jesus himself making this claim.  Someone else claiming that Jesus is God, despite his own denying of it on several  other occasions, does not form as evidence of his divinity.

As I stated at the start of this post, this comes back to the fact that some others in the Bible referred to Jesus as God, but nowhere did Jesus claim it.

bigbobs,

So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them. 

John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Why did Jesus not correct Thomas?  Why did Jesus not stop Thomas from worshiping him?  Why did Jesus not say "I am not God"?

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

John 9:38-39
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

If Jesus were a mere prophet of God, he would have immediately stopped any worship directed at him.  Even angels do this:

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Now that you see Jesus allowed people to worship him, and now hat you have admitted that people called Jesus God to his face, please find me in the Bible where Jesus is quoted saying "I am not God."


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

My loco... oh my God. (Shock from seeing loco being alive after assuming he was dead/gone).

See how that can be interpreted too ;)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 16, 2013, 04:10:22 PM

So you do admit that many people called Jesus God to his face, according to the Bible.  Please tell me why did Jesus not correct them or discourage them if they were wrong about him?  

So that's your strong evidence that Jesus is God?  That others called him that in a few verses and of the Biblical verses we have today none document Jesus denying it in response?  That in combination with the fact that many people called him a Man and Prophet, and more importantly Jesus referred to himself as a Man as well.  You're grasping at straws.


What of the people who worshiped him?  Jesus never stopped them.  


What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
You know that's the funny thing. The worshipped translation vs the fell down or bowed down etc.. just as I was pointing out but he completely ignored what I said and just copy pasted the same stuff again as if it makes it anymore true if he keeps copy pasting it again and again :/

As I told him even for sake of argument lets agree its TRUE lol... IF people worshipped Jesus lol there still lays the problem with the fact that Jesus NEVER said "WORSHIP ME", "I JESUS I AM YOUR GOD" or anything like that.

Ah never ending story of elusive verses and manipulated translations.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 16, 2013, 04:20:21 PM
You know that's the funny thing. The worshipped translation vs the fell down or bowed down etc.. just as I was pointing out but he completely ignored what I said and just copy pasted the same stuff again as if it makes it anymore true if he keeps copy pasting it again and again :/

As I told him even for sake of argument lets agree its TRUE lol... IF people worshipped Jesus lol there still lays the problem with the fact that Jesus NEVER said "WORSHIP ME", "I JESUS I AM YOUR GOD" or anything like that.

Ah never ending story of elusive verses and manipulated translations.

Yup, like I said earlier, grasping at straws :)  And yes I also noticed loco likes to keep repasting the same verses even after his interpretation of them has been refuted already.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 16, 2013, 04:26:10 PM
Christians worship one God and Christianity is monotheistic.  We serve a single God whose transcendent, eternal being is represented by 3 coequal, coeternal persons.  Please keep in mind that the term "persons" should not be considered or treated in a human capacity.  This is a means to define the trinitarian essence of God for the sake of human understanding.  God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are not each 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 of God or 1+1+1=1 (fallacy).....mathematically its better expressed as 1x1x1=1.  The trinity of God is not 3 separate deities.  Think of it in terms of time...past, present and future.  We don't have 3 separate "times", we just have time.  Time is again expressed in three coequal parts...past, present and future.  God is eternal, God is one.  The term "trinity" is not found in scripture, but the essence of God being expressed in the trinity of father, son and spirit is absolutely revealed in scripture.  Believers have attempted to capture that under the umbrella of the term "trinity".  Coining term "trinity" did not "invent the trinity".  The 3rd century councils did not invent the "trinity".  Paul did not "invent the trinity".  Scripture reveals the trinity.  Christ revealed the trinity.  Christ revealed his message to Paul via divine revelation.  The disciples affirmed Paul's ministry.  Do sects of believers deny the trinity?  Yes.  Are they correct?  No.  Are there debates amongs differing sects of virtually every religion/theology?  Yes.

I appreciate you trying to explain your interpretation but you do realize that this doesn't make sense to people with no prior knowledge of or bias towards believing in the Trinity?  The reasonable interpretation is that God is One (the "father" in the Bible) and that means there is no room for Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be God as well.  

You mentioned "God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit" - does the Bible actually contain this phrase or are you inserting "God the" before each of father, son and holy spirit?  

The time (past, present future) example is not analogous at all because we don't have instances of the past interacting with the future or vice versa.  


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 16, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
John 5:19-23
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 16, 2013, 04:52:53 PM
Also to add to what you said 1x1x1=1

So does 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum = 1

So.... lol :)

This is what it comes down to really this is what the church fathers came up with, and I forget his name, but the same dude who came up with this idea, near his dying time pretty much said he believed less and less in it as time went on (made no sense):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)

Really though if you look at the surface all the explanations you come up to try to explain the trinity are conjectures. The trinity itself was not thought by Jesus and we know from history that it was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

As I already pointed out from encyclopedias... it was 300 years after Jesus that the topic of discussion of WHO Jesus was/is and WHO God is began being debated... THEN 100 years after that, 400 years after Jesus did even the holy spirit come into debate and the whole trinity as a whole...

Amongst other debates such as whether to replace pass over with easter and so on and so on... History speaks volumes to the truth of what is true and not.

Do you know the funny thing? In grade 7 or was it grade 8 we were asked to memorize the nicene creed.. AND we were asked to WRITE OUR OWN VERSION lol no joke.. this was our class home work.. I remember it still...

In high school we expanded further on these things... so you see even in catholic school we are thought when and how these things are invented... yet... in the end when we start ASKING questions we are told "have faith", but I don't believe in blind faith in something that can be understood and known as false..

If you tell a lie a thousand times even if people believe it, it still remains a lie... And even if you write numerous pages upon pages of explanations to justify it, it still remains a lie.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Griffith on January 17, 2013, 12:36:52 AM
Also to add to what you said 1x1x1=1

So does 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 ad infinitum = 1

So.... lol :)

This is what it comes down to really this is what the church fathers came up with, and I forget his name, but the same dude who came up with this idea, near his dying time pretty much said he believed less and less in it as time went on (made no sense):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)

Really though if you look at the surface all the explanations you come up to try to explain the trinity are conjectures. The trinity itself was not thought by Jesus and we know from history that it was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

As I already pointed out from encyclopedias... it was 300 years after Jesus that the topic of discussion of WHO Jesus was/is and WHO God is began being debated... THEN 100 years after that, 400 years after Jesus did even the holy spirit come into debate and the whole trinity as a whole...

Amongst other debates such as whether to replace pass over with easter and so on and so on... History speaks volumes to the truth of what is true and not.

Do you know the funny thing? In grade 7 or was it grade 8 we were asked to memorize the nicene creed.. AND we were asked to WRITE OUR OWN VERSION lol no joke.. this was our class home work.. I remember it still...

In high school we expanded further on these things... so you see even in catholic school we are thought when and how these things are invented... yet... in the end when we start ASKING questions we are told "have faith", but I don't believe in blind faith in something that can be understood and known as false..

If you tell a lie a thousand times even if people believe it, it still remains a lie... And even if you write numerous pages upon pages of explanations to justify it, it still remains a lie.

You do know that Arian Christians viewed the Trinity as a Hierarchy of three.....God, Jesus, then the Holy Spirit.

Not as all one and equal.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 17, 2013, 06:40:33 AM
So that's your strong evidence that Jesus is God?  That others called him that in a few verses and of the Biblical verses we have today none document Jesus denying it in response?  That in combination with the fact that many people called him a Man and Prophet, and more importantly Jesus referred to himself as a Man as well.  You're grasping at straws.

Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

But when some said that he was possessed by a demon, Jesus plainly said “I am not possessed by a demon” - John 8:49.

What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 17, 2013, 06:45:41 AM
Yup, like I said earlier, grasping at straws :)  And yes I also noticed loco likes to keep repasting the same verses even after his interpretation of them has been refuted already.

If you go back and collect all of the verses that I have posted, you will see that they are many and not all the same.  If I have re-posted some, it is not for you.  It is for visitors to these threads who may come in late into the discussion.  

They need to see for themselves that there is indeed Biblical basis for the deity of Jesus Christ and for Salvation through faith in him and his sacrifice for our sins, even when Muslims keep repeating otherwise.

And how exactly have you "refuted" my "interpretation", by giving me your own interpretation?   LOL


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 17, 2013, 10:51:43 AM
Sure it does, it makes God unable to know something if he is god which he is not. Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time. That's why your argument has so little validity and credibility.

When you go and say "I have the holy spirit dwelling in me I am convinced" it really is meaningless.

Ironically the 'holy spirit' was not even talked about until 400 years after Jesus in part to this 'trinity'. The council of nicea 300 years after Jesus only talked about who is/was Jesus and who is God.

So you see.. no matter how you spin it, Jesus is not God and your arguments fall apart.

"It's black."      "Nope, it's white."  
"It's up."          "Nope, it's down."
"It's on."          "Nope, it's off."
"It's left."         "Nope, it's right."
"It's over."        "Nope, it's under."
"It's hot."         "Nope, it's cold."
"It's inside."      "Nope, it's outside."
"It's correct."    "Nope, it's incorrect."
"It's tall."          "Nope, it's short."
"It's heavy."      "Nope, it's light."
"It's hard."        "Nope, it's soft."
"It's good."       "Nope, it's bad."

......ad infinitum, ad nauseum

I literally have nothing else to share or write cause frankly I'm out of words and I'm drained....completely.

I completely and totally understand Butterbean now.

MOS out


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 17, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

Your first three titles are correct and in agreement with the Qur'an as well, it's the "and he is God" is where we differ.  It is possible to me a man, prophet and Messiah because none of these three are exclusive of each other.  However by definition one can not be both God and man, or both God and prophet (because the latter is the messenger of the former, thereby necessitating two separate entities).  Combine this with the fact that Jesus was clearly below "the father" (prayed to him, was not all-knowing, etc.) and that Jesus never even claimed to be God in the Bible (while he did claim to be man, prophet, and Messiah), you no longer have a valid case of the Trinity to people such as myself and non-religious readers of getbig who do not have blind faith or have not been indoctrinated at an early age of this Trinity belief.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 17, 2013, 11:49:23 AM

Jesus was a man, and also a prophet, and he is also the Christ(Messiah), and he is God. When people called him by any of these names and titles to his face, he never denied it because he is all of these.

Your first three titles are correct and in agreement with the Qur'an as well, it's the "and he is God" is where we differ.  It is possible to me a man, prophet and Messiah because none of these three are exclusive of each other.  However by definition one can not be both God and man, or both God and prophet (because the latter is the messenger of the former, thereby necessitating two separate entities).  Combine this with the fact that Jesus was clearly below "the father" (prayed to him, was not all-knowing, etc.) and that Jesus never even claimed to be God in the Bible (while he did claim to be man, prophet, and Messiah), you no longer have a valid case of the Trinity to people such as myself and non-religious readers of getbig who do not have blind faith or have not been indoctrinated at an early age of this Trinity belief.

So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: scottt on January 17, 2013, 01:08:38 PM
Everyone will bow to Jesus as king because GOD his father tells you to.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 17, 2013, 01:19:45 PM
Everyone will bow to Jesus as king because GOD his father tells you to.

Who said anything about just bow?  We are talking deity worship here.  If the Messiah is not God, that would be idolatry. 

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 17, 2013, 02:14:56 PM
lol you're being pretty desperate, we already pointed out how unreliable the translations are and the verses themselves since whatever you're trying to 'prove' is totally destroyed by other verses.

Jesus is not God no matter how much you wish it to be true :) And to put further salt on the wound, Jesus called God Allah in Aramaic, the living spoken language of Palesitne.

No matter how many times you copy paste these verses, there's also verses which will demonstrate teh same for someone OTHER than Jesus. So who is here who?

I guess that's why the roman church fathers were so confused and argued over who Jesus is.

It's funny you quote the book of daniel, yet here we are, the Jews don't think the messiah is God either. Sooo... epic fail as usual.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 17, 2013, 03:04:53 PM

So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?


uhhh...you do realize that the word Messiah does not mean God right?  It's simply "anointed one" and is used for various kings.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 17, 2013, 04:19:15 PM
uhhh...you do realize that the word Messiah does not mean God right?  It's simply "anointed one" and is used for various kings.

Yes, bigbobs, I do realize that: Messiah = Christ = Anointed One.

If Jesus is the Messiah, but not God, why was he worshiped by his apostles? 

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

If the Messiah in Daniel 7:14 is not also God, then why is this Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 17, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
lmao funny how he is not pasting those other verses which did not say worship in the orhtodox jewish bible because they said prostrated below, bowed down, fell to the ground.

Ah desperation.

That's why in islam we know God is one and we can point many verses that explicitly say who God is. You are struggling to justify your worship of a human being. Thin strings is what your arguments stand by.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 17, 2013, 10:00:01 PM
So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:


What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 17, 2013, 10:21:43 PM


If Jesus is the Messiah, but not God, why was he worshiped by his apostles?  



what are you talking about? for 325 years.  yes thats: 3 centuries, 2 decades and 5 years! the first followers of Jesus DIDNT WORSHIP HIM OR CALL HIM GOD! they went to synagogues(just like Jesus did) and worshiped with the JEWS! they prayed just like them(just like Jesus did, and how muslims do today). its only MUCH MUCH AFTER(325 years!)! that certain people came up with this idea of the "trinity", and left the teachings of Jesus! Why is  it the Christians today dont worship like Jesus did? who decided, "ok were going to stop copying Jesus and invent our own way of praying?".

now I know as soon as Loco reads this he is going to go "Loco"(lol) and open Google and desperately find a rebuttal. If that dosent work, he will go with his regular tactic and spam quotes.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 18, 2013, 07:54:05 AM
what are you talking about? for 325 years.  yes thats: 3 centuries, 2 decades and 5 years! the first followers of Jesus DIDNT WORSHIP HIM OR CALL HIM GOD! they went to synagogues(just like Jesus did) and worshiped with the JEWS! they prayed just like them(just like Jesus did, and how muslims do today). its only MUCH MUCH AFTER(325 years!)! that certain people came up with this idea of the "trinity", and left the teachings of Jesus! Why is  it the Christians today dont worship like Jesus did? who decided, "ok were going to stop copying Jesus and invent our own way of praying?".

now I know as soon as Loco reads this he is going to go "Loco"(lol) and open Google and desperately find a rebuttal. If that dosent work, he will go with his regular tactic and spam quotes.

I'm sorry True, but this simply isn't correct...this is an incorrect position of nonChristian faiths and theologies labeled as "history".  The term "trinity" was coined in later centuries to help encompass the scriptural concept, but that concept was taught by Christ and his disciples and the apostles from the first days of Christianity.  "Early Christians" are often referred to as the churches of later centuries, but the early Christians were Peter, Paul, Mary, James, Timothy, etc....who communicated the message of God in the same manner as their Jewish predecessors via oral tradition.  

As I've posted repeatedly there is no biblical scripture outlining the specifics of bodily positions in prayer or frequency of prayer.  There is biblical scripture concerning content of pray and how not to prayer in a boastful, showy manner.   As believers we're supposed to pray and worship daily and rely on our God and Savior for all things, but there isn't a biblical schedule of 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, etc...that's a man-made, cultural tradition and/or theology outlined in nonChristian faiths.  Even if early Jews prayed exactly like Muslims today the tradition is simply man-made and not scriptural.   I thought we've clarified this already?  I don't believe my posts are being read completely....folks sooooo eager to retort with their own opinions and glossing posts quickly in anticipation of hitting that "Reply" button....well, so be it.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 18, 2013, 09:37:35 AM
I'm sorry True, but this simply isn't correct...this is an incorrect position of nonChristian faiths and theologies labeled as "history".  The term "trinity" was coined in later centuries to help encompass the scriptural concept, but that concept was taught by Christ and his disciples and the apostles from the first days of Christianity.  "Early Christians" are often referred to as the churches of later centuries, but the early Christians were Peter, Paul, Mary, James, Timothy, etc....who communicated the message of God in the same manner as their Jewish predecessors via oral tradition.  

As I've posted repeatedly there is no biblical scripture outlining the specifics of bodily positions in prayer or frequency of prayer.  There is biblical scripture concerning content of pray and how not to prayer in a boastful, showy manner.   As believers we're supposed to pray and worship daily and rely on our God and Savior for all things, but there isn't a biblical schedule of 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, etc...that's a man-made, cultural tradition and/or theology outlined in nonChristian faiths.  Even if early Jews prayed exactly like Muslims today the tradition is simply man-made and not scriptural.   I thought we've clarified this already?  I don't believe my posts are being read completely....folks sooooo eager to retort with their own opinions and glossing posts quickly in anticipation of hitting that "Reply" button....well, so be it.

It's not that we're not reading your posts, the issue is your posts say there is Bibical scriptural evidence of the Trinity yet you fail to provide any conclusive examples, only unclear verses which need to be interpreted in a specific, stretching, way.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 18, 2013, 09:57:43 AM
It's not that we're not reading your posts, the issue is your posts say there is Bibical scriptural evidence of the Trinity yet you fail to provide any conclusive examples, only unclear verses which need to be interpreted in a specific, stretching, way.

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts....I mean that.  Not every word is gold LOL, but I do my best to express my faitha and I try and read everyone else's post as well.

I understand what you're suggesting, but that's a purely subjective stance.  I know that either you or ahmed has stated that there is no way anyone would read the trinity out of biblical scripture, but man that just ain't so.   Further it's been said that the only way a believer comes to know the Trinity is if they're taught the Trinity, but that's true of a myriad of subjects and concepts (theological and non-theological).   Certainly many believers come to church and are educated for the first time in anything religious (including the concept of the Trinity), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't reach that conclusion on their own.  I know plenty of believers that found Christ and experienced the Holy Spirit in the solitude of their homes by themselves with nothing but a good ole KJV of the bible LOL!  That's why the bible is referred to as the living word because when you honestly seek God through his word his presence will be made evident and the word will come alive.  Again, ahmed would dismiss that notion as "emotional rhetoric", but that's nothing more than ignorance and arrogance.  Point is, we have outlined verse after verse of scripture and you don't accept it, you prefer Islam and that's your prerogative.  I could give you book after book from modern day theologians (ahmed would scoff at that as well) that have vast knowledge on the subject.  Still, the real truth is found between believer and God and revelation of the Holy Spirit therein....experiencing the facets of God for yourself and becoming the proof (again ahmed would dismiss this with a casual "emotional rhetoric" retort).


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 18, 2013, 10:20:09 AM
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts....I mean that.  Not every word is gold LOL, but I do my best to express my faitha and I try and read everyone else's post as well.

I understand what you're suggesting, but that's a purely subjective stance.  I know that either you or ahmed has stated that there is no way anyone would read the trinity out of biblical scripture, but man that just ain't so.   Further it's been said that the only way a believer comes to know the Trinity is if they're taught the Trinity, but that's true of a myriad of subjects and concepts (theological and non-theological).   Certainly many believers come to church and are educated for the first time in anything religious (including the concept of the Trinity), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't reach that conclusion on their own.  I know plenty of believers that found Christ and experienced the Holy Spirit in the solitude of their homes by themselves with nothing but a good ole KJV of the bible LOL!  That's why the bible is referred to as the living word because when you honestly seek God through his word his presence will be made evident and the word will come alive.  Again, ahmed would dismiss that notion as "emotional rhetoric", but that's nothing more than ignorance and arrogance.  Point is, we have outlined verse after verse of scripture and you don't accept it, you prefer Islam and that's your prerogative.  I could give you book after book from modern day theologians (ahmed would scoff at that as well) that have vast knowledge on the subject.  Still, the real truth is found between believer and God and revelation of the Holy Spirit therein....experiencing the facets of God for yourself and becoming the proof (again ahmed would dismiss this with a casual "emotional rhetoric" retort).

No problem I always try to read posts, it's just the long copy-pasted articles which are sometimes posted that I skip over.  I accept that some followers interpret today's Bible as teaching the Trinity, however if the scripture was clear there would be no debate or different interpretations.  For example, the Qur'an clearly states that God is one and Muhammad, Jesus, etc. are prophets, so there is no debate over whether there's a triune God in Islam or whether any prophets are divine.  Similarly, in the Bible if there was clear scripture such as Jesus saying, "I am God, worhsip me, God is three in one" etc. we would not be having this debate.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: Man of Steel on January 18, 2013, 10:35:30 AM
No problem I always try to read posts, it's just the long copy-pasted articles which are sometimes posted that I skip over.  I accept that some followers interpret today's Bible as teaching the Trinity, however if the scripture was clear there would be no debate or different interpretations.  For example, the Qur'an clearly states that God is one and Muhammad, Jesus, etc. are prophets, so there is no debate over whether there's a triune God in Islam or whether any prophets are divine.  Similarly, in the Bible if there was clear scripture such as Jesus saying, "I am God, worhsip me, God is three in one" etc. we would not be having this debate.

Well, admittedly I also skim the loooong articles too.

Yes, the bible also clearly teaches that God is one and only one, but the human life of Jesus Christ on earth and the Holy Spirit arriving at Pentecost after Christ's ascension showed a glimpse of God's transcendent essence and that's there's far more to God than what was known then or that will ever be known about God.....he stands above us in every way and we must be willing to accept that.  Despite his presence in our lives we can't comprehend him fully....we're finite and he's infinite. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 18, 2013, 01:21:29 PM
Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:


Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    ;D


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 18, 2013, 02:47:01 PM
Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    ;D

The same to you :)  Speaking of Arnold I'm seeing his new movie tonight - anyone else here watching it?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on January 18, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
lol its out tonight? eh.. dunno if i wana spend money on it in theater, he's just so old lol.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: TrueBB93 on January 18, 2013, 04:09:48 PM
Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    ;D

the same to you my Christian friend.  ;D. make sure you come back soon, the debates not over! lol.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 25, 2013, 09:29:47 AM

So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:

What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?


bigbobs,

When Peter was worshiped by Cornelius in Acts 10:25, Peter stopped Cornelius and rebuked him in the next verse saying "Stand up, I am only a man myself."

Here is the complete passage:

Acts 10:25-26
New International Version (NIV)

25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence.
26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Likewise, when John worshiped the angel in Revelations 22:8, the angel stopped John and corrected him in verse 9 saying "Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!"

Revelation 22:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

I posted many Bible verses where people worshiped Jesus and Jesus never did stop, rebuke or correct them.  But then a_ahmed posted the same verses using the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) to claim that because the English word "worship" was not used in this version of those verses, then those people were only bowing, kneeling or prostrating themselves before Jesus, but not in worship to him.

So now I quote the same Bible version that a_ahmed quoted:

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.
The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.

bigbobs,

The Greek word Proskuneo also means Worship.  It is used many places in the New Testament in reference to worshiping God.  In Matthew 4:9, Proskuneo is used in reference to worshiping Satan, and in Matthew 4:10 in reference to worshiping God.

Matthew 4:9-10
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’"

So my question stands:  If Jesus is not God, then why did he not stop, rebuke or correct people, like Peter did in Acts 10:25-26 and like the angel did in Revelation 22:8-9, when people called him God to his face or when they worshiped him?

And you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
Not feeling the need or motivation to reply to loco in this thread, as he keeps repasting the same verses like a broken record.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 28, 2013, 11:43:16 AM
Not feeling the need or motivation to reply to loco in this thread, as he keeps repasting the same verses like a broken record.

Don't give up so easily, my Muslim friend!  I have kindly replied to your posts.  Come back when you feel like it and have the motivation to kindly reply to my post above.  BTW, neither you nor any other of our Muslim friends here has yet addressed Daniel 7:14.  

Peace be unto you!


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 12:21:29 PM
Don't give up so easily, my Muslim friend!  I have kindly replied to your posts.  Come back when you feel like it and have the motivation to kindly reply to my post above.  BTW, neither you nor any other of our Muslim friends here has yet addressed Daniel 7:14.  Peace be unto you!

What is there to address?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 28, 2013, 12:38:55 PM
What is there to address?


Alright, just come back when you feel like it and when you have the motivation.  Then you can read my post again and kindly reply as I have kindly replied to yours.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 01:53:23 PM
Alright, just come back when you feel like it and when you have the motivation.  Then you can read my post again and kindly reply as I have kindly replied to yours.

My reply has nothing to do being kind or not, as I've stated before I often don't understand what exactly your quotes and bolded texts are supposed to mean or what you're trying to get me to address?  This is because you simply paste quotes without explaining your interpretation of them.  I haven't found this with any of the others on here who I've discussed religion with. Then when I ask what your point is you usually just repost it and make a remark suggesting that I'm simply trying to avoid answering you.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 28, 2013, 04:23:24 PM
My reply has nothing to do being kind or not, as I've stated before I often don't understand what exactly your quotes and bolded texts are supposed to mean or what you're trying to get me to address?  This is because you simply paste quotes without explaining your interpretation of them.  I haven't found this with any of the others on here who I've discussed religion with. Then when I ask what your point is you usually just repost it and make a remark suggesting that I'm simply trying to avoid answering you.

Why don't you take my post above and tell me one point at a time what you do not understand and I will gladly explain. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 04:27:59 PM
Why don't you take my post above and tell me one point at a time what you do not understand and I will gladly explain. 

You asked me to address Daniel 7:14, I responded asking what you'd like me to address, and in the few replies you've posted you still haven't told me.  ???


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 28, 2013, 04:33:39 PM
You asked me to address Daniel 7:14, I responded asking what you'd like me to address, and in the few replies you've posted you still haven't told me.  ???

You agree that Jesus is the Messiah, but you believe that Jesus is not God.  Therefore you must believe that the Jewish Messiah is not God.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: onetoughrepublican on January 28, 2013, 04:34:30 PM
dont just read it libs

live it


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 04:55:44 PM
You agree that Jesus is the Messiah, but you believe that Jesus is not God.  Therefore you must believe that the Jewish Messiah is not God.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Where in Daniel 7:14 is the title "Messiah?"    When I look up Daniel 7:14 these are the translations I get:  http://bible.cc/daniel/7-14.htm.  Most of the translations don't even use the word "worship." 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on January 28, 2013, 06:02:33 PM
Where in Daniel 7:14 is the title "Messiah?"    When I look up Daniel 7:14 these are the translations I get:  http://bible.cc/daniel/7-14.htm.  Most of the translations don't even use the word "worship." 

But what does it say in Hebrew?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on January 28, 2013, 06:10:00 PM
But what does it say in Hebrew?

No idea as I don't know Hebrew.  What I do know is that none of the translations of Daniel 7:14 that I'm reading hint that Messiah = God, we've already established that it's simply defined as an annointed one, and has been used for kings and priests.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 19, 2013, 06:51:21 AM
last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

You missed this:

Matthew 9:2-7
2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.


What's your observation, bigbobs?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 19, 2013, 11:26:04 AM
You missed this:

Matthew 9:2-7
2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
7 Then the man got up and went home.


What's your observation, bigbobs?

Sounds like some verses in the Bible suggest God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins.  Not seeing how that's relevant to the question of Jesus being God or not.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 19, 2013, 03:30:37 PM
Sounds like some verses in the Bible suggest God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins.  Not seeing how that's relevant to the question of Jesus being God or not.

Did God give Jesus the authority to forgive sins, bigbobs?

Mark 2:7
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/536176_349106345203037_1726802303_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 19, 2013, 03:39:42 PM
Did God give Jesus the authority to forgive sins, bigbobs?

Mark 2:7
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?



I don't believe God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins, unless there is reason within Islamic scripture to believe so. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 04:44:19 AM
I don't believe God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins, unless there is reason within Islamic scripture to believe so.  

Is there?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 20, 2013, 09:47:06 AM
Is there?

Not that I'm aware of


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 11:05:10 AM
Not that I'm aware of

This is what the Bible says:

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 20, 2013, 11:48:39 AM
This is what the Bible says:

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?

So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   ::)


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 11:53:45 AM
So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   ::)

So mere humans can forgive sins?


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
So mere humans can forgive sins?

I didn't read the conversation above. But wait? You think no one can forgive someone if they were wronged? WOW!


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 20, 2013, 01:20:12 PM
So mere humans can forgive sins?

Of course we can.  As an example, I recently forgave one of my friends for not being able to keep a secret I told him.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:24:25 PM
I didn't read the conversation above. But wait? You think no one can forgive someone if they were wronged? WOW!

Of course we can.  As an example, I recently forgave one of my friends for not being able to keep a secret I told him.

No, and you both know that is not what we are talking about here.     ::)

Jesus forgave all of the paralyzed man's sins.  The paralyzed man had not "wronged" Jesus.  You know that is why the teachers of the law said Jesus was blaspheming. 


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: bigbobs on February 20, 2013, 01:28:39 PM
No, and you both know that is not what we are talking about here.     ::)

Jesus forgave all of the paralyzed man's sins.  The paralyzed man had not "wronged" Jesus.  You know that is why the teachers of the law said Jesus was blaspheming. 

Yup, like I said earlier:

"So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:39:34 PM
Yup, like I said earlier:

"So what "some" people in the audience were "thinking to themselves" overrides what Jesus explicitly states about himself + the many other narrations of Jesus being human?   

Jesus said that he had the power to forgive sins on earth, that he had the power to forgive all of the paralyzed man's sins, and he did just that.  Are you saying Jesus is a liar?  I really don't know what you are saying here.


Title: Re: Read the book of Matthew
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 02:37:03 PM
Muhammad (pbuh) also uttered "your sins are forgiven" on numerous accounts.

Prophets can assure people of forgiveness as they receive divine revelation and are in contact with God as their representatives on earth.

That does not make them God.

Stop being childish, it's making you look pathetic "are you saying Jesus is a liar". You are being pathetic and childish seriously. Absolute desperation on your part. I've been sarcastic in response to your things but you're not even arguing with facts anymore, just desperation.

#1 The books we have in the bible are not authored by Jesus nor authored by anyone near Jesus and we know they've been tampered with.

Want one small mind bursting fact? The prostitute incident, a story created was it 400 years after or was it 700 years after? So it was not Jesus' words.

#2 Jesus also said he does these things granted through the power of God and it's stated as such.

Was Moses God? Because he could turn a staff into a snake? Or make his hand shine under his garment?