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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: big-bri on November 27, 2005, 08:37:53 PM



Title: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: big-bri on November 27, 2005, 08:37:53 PM
How much nolva would you recomend for combatting bloat?


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: massivemann on November 27, 2005, 11:56:44 PM
10 to 20mg


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 28, 2005, 04:17:00 AM
10 to 20mg

Concur.





DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 28, 2005, 06:56:24 AM
Dont use nolva for bloat, use an AI


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on November 28, 2005, 08:02:51 AM
Dont use nolva for bloat, use an AI

This may be more personal experience than science.  Nolva will work.  I'd start at 10mg.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: big-bri on November 28, 2005, 06:20:53 PM
Thats about what I figured, thanks.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 29, 2005, 06:43:38 PM
Don't forget nolvadex is a SERM, meaning it selectively blocks estrogen at specific sites, in the case of nolva, breast tissue.  It is actually a weak estrogen itself, and will exhibit estrogenic properties at other sites...lets see....at bones, the liver, abdominal fat stores.  The liver and bones are OK actually beneficial in lowering your lipid profile or combating osteoporosis in post menopausal women.  Abdominal fat stores?...not so good.  :(


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 29, 2005, 07:30:20 PM
Abdominal fat stores?...not so good.  :(

There's always a drawback.....

That's life.



DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on November 30, 2005, 06:52:39 AM
Don't forget nolvadex is a SERM, meaning it selectively blocks estrogen at specific sites, in the case of nolva, breast tissue.  It is actually a weak estrogen itself, and will exhibit estrogenic properties at other sites...lets see....at bones, the liver, abdominal fat stores.  The liver and bones are OK actually beneficial in lowering your lipid profile or combating osteoporosis in post menopausal women.  Abdominal fat stores?...not so good.  :(

Luv:  great points, as usual.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on November 30, 2005, 06:55:12 AM
You guys ARE great!!!


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 07:36:39 AM
What is the connection to "belly fat".  I don't get that?  I understand that it may have estrogenic effect but can't connect that to retention of mid section fat stores?


It's pretty simple.

The estrogenic activity in Nolvadex will manifest itself in the estrogen receptor sites in the abdominal region, thus increasing fat stores in the belly.




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 30, 2005, 07:46:08 AM
It's pretty simple.

The estrogenic activity in Nolvadex will manifest itself in the estrogen receptor sites in the abdominal region, thus increasing fat stores in the belly.




DIV

Yes that is a good explanation.  I have been trying to find the research on it.  There was a thread by a dude named marble on this with tons of info sources, I think it was titled "are you taking too much nolva?" or "letro vs nolva".  I will keep looking.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Sam Colleta on November 30, 2005, 07:48:39 AM
How about you just dont use steroids then you wont have this problem you cheating scumbag!


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 30, 2005, 08:47:26 AM
How about you just dont use steroids then you wont have this problem you cheating scumbag!

"Sammy,   Baby"(said sammy davis jr. style), ..why the hate?


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on November 30, 2005, 09:31:39 AM

What is the connection to "belly fat". I don't get that? I understand that it may
have estrogenic effect but can't connect that to retention of mid section fat stores?


Fat accumulation around mid-section, ?Properly termed? feminine pattern fat distribution,
I believe directly related to estrogenic activity . . .


Don't forget nolvadex is a SERM, meaning it selectively blocks estrogen at specific sites,
in the case of nolva, breast tissue.  It is actually a weak estrogen itself, and will
exhibit estrogenic properties at other sites...lets see....at bones, the liver,
abdominal fat stores.  The liver and bones are OK actually beneficial in
lowering your lipid profile or combating osteoporosis in post menopausal women.
Abdominal fat stores?...not so good.  :(


This post (in particular) struck a cord . . . about Nolvadex (in essence) being a weak estrogen . . .

I have Nolvadex (on hand) and have instead been using Arimidex throughout
on this cycle (my most aggressive to date) and I have noticed the best results yet
in terms of BF reduction all over my body. Luv2hurt posted a  g r e a t  message
detailing something that I hit on (in a prior post) about Nolvadex / HgH in
essence iterfering at receptor level. Ah HA!!! never made any association to IGF . ..

I am experiencing this directly, unlike previous cycles. Especially in entire mid-section
(modest love handles gone!!!) and (for first time) noticing vascularity in my legs, thighs,
ham and even glutes (yes glutes).


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 01:36:31 PM
Yes that is a good explanation.  I have been trying to find the research on it.  There was a thread by a dude named marble on this with tons of info sources, I think it was titled "are you taking too much nolva?" or "letro vs nolva".  I will keep looking.

Isn't Marble a chemist or someone with a biochemistry background?

I've heard of him before, but not sure if he's an active member.





DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on November 30, 2005, 02:15:09 PM
Isn't Marble a chemist or someone with a biochemistry background?

I've heard of him before, but not sure if he's an active member.
DIV

Oh...how quickly they forget...



Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 02:26:11 PM
Oh...how quickly they forget...

I wasn't here for the days of Marble.

Where is he?

Can we get him back?




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on November 30, 2005, 04:05:05 PM
HA! I found part(s) of it . . . still looking for more meat related to this
and DO have to get some work done today . . . but this really matters

First - I just gotta say - I really DIG you guys !!! I know I  K N O W - IT sounds ghey! I DONT CARE  ;D

You all - (my buds) specific to course of this thread -  ???  ???  have got me thinking (much of the time)  ???  ???
and I am growing in multiple ways for all the boundless help and continued motivation to keep me thinking
about ths f'ing cool hobby or practice . . . !GUSHING! I will f'ing stop IT . . .

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=29768.msg464086#msg464086


three things are probably contributing.  highly suspect water retention.  also, androgens generally encourage an androgenic fat storage style; it's often called an apple rather than pear shape.  this means increased storage of visceral -- organ/gut -- fat.  if you're eating more, expect your digestive tract to expand a little bit to accommodate the greater nutrient load.

it's not likely too much muscle hypertrophy at this point, because this would take a longer time to occur.  it's far more likely in this case that your existing muscle is being pushed outward by increased visceral accumulation.



letrozole will be more effective as an anti-estrogen.  you may have seen this redistribution because nolvadex actually acts as a powerful estrogen at fat stores, and contributed to a more feminine fat distribution (pear).  this is usually a pretty slow process though, so i'd blame the weight loss instead.


http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=29681.msg465000#msg465000


- - your anti-e plan sounds fine.  if you don't like the bloat, run light letrozole throughout; otherwise, the extra cell volume will only help hypertrophy.  but for the love of your balls and women, add some hcg throughout.  use it in the diluent to mix

****for the others, it's counterproductive to run nolva in general, but particularly when you're running gh.  you're shooting yourself in the foot unless you get *very* definite gyno symptoms, in which case you must take it quickly since it's by far the best prevention.  nolva inhibits the formation of igf-i by the liver regardless of whether the gh is endogenous or exogenous. ****


****THIS PORTION OF POST IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN DRIVING AT  ****
instinctively I have really come to this conclusion by the past few cycles -
EG: Nolva and HgH - combo not good - I can see (and feel) it in my body

Luv2Hurt - I had NO IDEA you were the same age (range) as freakfeastMD and me
(not that it matters one bit) I had just figured that your a 20 something YO cocker
(no insult intended), as you (too) ARE a wildman  ;)

Thanks you guys for pushing me . . .

This all makes sense . . .


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 04:28:02 PM
HA! I found part(s) of it . . . still looking for more meat related to this
and DO have to get some work done today . . . but this really matters

Thanks for that.

Marble seems to be a veteran of the game.





DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 30, 2005, 06:57:28 PM
yes good job mem those were some of the marble posts I was referring to  :)  Wish we could get them all, they were all referenced by studies.

Actually marble was a young guy, not sure of his backround but the dude was a brilliant researcher, I'm guessing he was in medical research or something.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 07:10:03 PM
Actually marble was a young guy, not sure of his backround but the dude was a brilliant researcher, I'm guessing he was in medical research or something.

Ahh......so Marble was the research side of this.  The board needs one of those guys, who lives in the studies. 

Where did Marble go?

Anyone know?   ???




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 30, 2005, 07:30:19 PM
Said work had him maxed out, said he would come back...but im not so sure, its been probally six months since we have heard from him.

I think it may be possible marble left the dark side  :(


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on November 30, 2005, 07:48:19 PM
I also liked mythical Marble links to (bonafied references) . . .

But his point (something to the effect) of volumizing (water bloat)
pulling more into the cell is more clear now than ever before.
Supports notions *that estrogen is ?important? possibly anabolic
increased mass or gains due to estrogens presence. Hmmm.

- - - - - -

And I was particularly interested in (his) expressed concepts
of receptor (up regulation) with higher androgen usage . . .
quite contrary to common perceptions, It makes sense to me.

Partially why I increased baseline test levels in current cycle .


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 07:48:45 PM
Said work had him maxed out, said he would come back...but im not so sure, its been probally six months since we have heard from him.

I think it may be possible marble left the dark side  :(

Wait......I thought he was a "researcher", not that he HIMSELF had crossed over to the "Dark Side" of the force.

Someone care to elaborate on this?

Was he a user?

Speak.




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: guest123 on November 30, 2005, 08:38:36 PM
marble was the shit.  the info he spit, i took all of it as truth. 
he also was advocate of staying on rather than cycling for your nuts to come back after you are done.  was brillant in his posts.
spoke in scientific detail then would break it down like locker room talk.  amazing.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on November 30, 2005, 08:42:45 PM
Wait......I thought he was a "researcher", not that he HIMSELF had crossed over to the "Dark Side" of the force.

Someone care to elaborate on this?

Was he a user?

Speak.




DIV

I really would not feel right elaborating on someone else's personal stuff.  But marble was one of us. 

Maybe he will fill us in on whats up? (obvious attempt to bait him out  :D)  he did say he would drop in from time to time.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: guest123 on November 30, 2005, 09:31:01 PM
no. he provided studies and quoted them.
it was just nice to have someone not spitting the same normal suggestions which are not even based on science.
things such as running nolva to prevent gyno.  (this is not a marble study.)  but nolva can actually stimulate breast tissue growth in some men.  many doctor's that deal with gyno share this belief. 
just nice to hear science based posts. 
i don't have blind faith in anything. 


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on November 30, 2005, 10:49:28 PM
no. he provided studies and quoted them.

So he hadn't crossed over to the "Dark Side".

I see.

I wish he'd come back, we could use him.

I'd like his personal opinion on Dostinex.




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on December 01, 2005, 04:47:57 AM
There were a few posts about him getting married, getting a new job, etc. 

His posts were truly amazing because he would back up every statement with a literature reference, and it was clear that he actually read the complete manuscripts very thouroughly.  He was great at summarizing very compex information.  However, the time expenditure that he invested was clearly HUGE.  I know from my own publications (>30)that the time it takes to do a good literature review and to synthesize all of that information into written format is extensive.  I suspect he simply couldn't devote the time anymore.



Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: Luv2Hurt on December 01, 2005, 06:44:23 AM
Well said Freak, he did put tons of time in.  He probally burned out a little also.  I still say he got out of the game...he seemed troubled by the effects of androgen's on the heart.  And to tell the truth with all the deaths in the sport related to heart problems it has me wondering too.

Oh yeah guys, just so you know the Freak is the marble of orthopedics  ;D



Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on December 01, 2005, 09:43:59 AM

Oh yeah guys, just so you know the Freak is the marble of orthopedics  ;D


Absolutely - a B I G bow of respect to freakfestMD on my part . . .


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on December 01, 2005, 03:39:28 PM
Wow--Thanks guys! :D


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on December 01, 2005, 05:19:20 PM
Wow--Thanks guys! :D

Orthopedics, huh?   ;D

Freakfest, what is your opinion of the common belief that AAS tend to erode the connective tissue in the joints thus making them more susceptible to injury?

Speak on this, sir.




DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfesttMD on December 02, 2005, 01:22:06 PM
Freakfest, what is your opinion of the common belief that AAS tend to erode the connective tissue in the joints thus making them more susceptible to injury?

Speak on this, sir.
DIV

Great question DIV.  The short answer:  this common belief is likely accurate.

Most of what we know, at least histologically, about the effects of steroids on tendon structure come from studies of corticosteroids which are commonly injected to alleviate the pain and inflammation from acute tendinitis.  This is a common, and very effective, treatment but has a known complication rate of tendon rupture after injection.  This complication has also been corroborated with oral corticosteroid use.

As such, researchers have spent considerable time investigating this relationship at the cellular level. At the tendon level, glucocorticoids suppress human tenocyte cellular activity, reduce tenocyte viability, and reduce collagen production, leading to altered tendon structure and predisposition to injury (Wong et al Clin Orthop Rel Res 2004; Wong et al J Bone and Joint Surg 2003).


There has been no effort spent on closely examining this effect in the case of anabolic steroids, likely because of the obvious illicit nature of their use and the fact that not many doctors actually give a sh*t about us (myself withstanding  ;D). However, case examples of tendon rupture have been described among anabolic steroid users with increasing frequency.  At the surface level, one could surmise that these individuals rupture their tendons simply due to the fact that they are engaged in high demand activities.  I know of one report where ruptured tendons from two anabolic steroid users were examined, with two non-steroid users as controls.  Gross microscopic examination revealed no obvious difference in the collagen fibril ultrastructure among the four individuals, leading the authors to conclude that use of steroids did not induce tendinous changes that lead to rupture (Evans et al Injury 1998).

However, one thing that does seem to distinguish tendon rupture in anabolic steroid users from non-users and from those after local and systemic glucocorticoid administration is the predilection for BILATERAL, SPONTANEOUS rupture of tendons.  This event is unusual, and is not typically described in weightlifters who do not use anabolics.  Also, the events do not always seem to occur during weightlifting activity.  There may of course be a bias towards reporting these cases in steroid users, though, because they are "sexier" topics and often make it past journal reviewers.    

That being said, overall I think the medical literature does support the concept.  As well, most of us probably know someone at the gym who this has happened to, and most likely it was one of the big AAS boyz...


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on December 02, 2005, 01:24:49 PM
Note:

I wasn't logged in when I posted the above comments but it's me (I didn't realize until I finished typing and I was afraid to lose my response).  Computer chicken-sh*t!


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on December 02, 2005, 01:57:48 PM
Great question DIV.  The short answer:  this common belief is likely accurate.

Yes, Freakfest.

But is it the same mechanism of erosion the same with both corticosteroids and anabolicsteroids?

-or- is it just a case of the AAS causing the muscle strength to outgrow the tendon strength, thus creating an imbalance and consequent rupture?

SPEAK.



DIV


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: freakfestMD on December 02, 2005, 02:21:48 PM
This is unknown.  My collective feeling is that it is likely some combination of both phenomenon.  The "perfect storm," if you will.  Compromised tendon + heavy loading = potential disaster.  It is interesting, though, that these ruptures are not only seen during weight-training activities.  It begs the argument of some underlying tendinopathy.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: mem on December 02, 2005, 02:30:52 PM
See I quit taking prescription :) Celebrex 2.5 years ago due to this prospect.
I did not read the compete post. But I thought that I understood that NSAIDs
undermined tissue repair while blocking pain (a prostaglandin thing).

I have stayed away from OTC anti-inflammatories, hopefully to aid (long term)
in the bodies ability to repair. I also h o p e that over time using Hgh and natural
(collegen supporting) suppliments that I may provide substrate for this.


Title: Re: Nolva for Bloat
Post by: DIVISION on December 02, 2005, 03:15:10 PM
It is interesting, though, that these ruptures are not only seen during weight-training activities.  It begs the argument of some underlying tendinopathy.

That's my thinking as well.

If you rupture tendons falling down or tripping.......something people do all the time, it speaks to an underlying condition.

I wish we had some answers.





DIV