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Title: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: galeniko on November 07, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
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Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bad Boy Dazza on November 07, 2012, 03:14:20 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

People who work hard and save do have money put aside.   So it does work for them.  Do you have a job?  What do you do?

Third world?  WTF?  These people follow a different set of rules.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bad Boy Dazza on November 07, 2012, 03:27:50 AM
i dont think pl on minimum wage put anything aside.

in the uk, 50% of the employed people need a govt top up.

yes i do have a job, and im in switzerland, we follow different rules here,its the land where all the tax evaded money from other nations goes, ofc we have it good here

Many people spend their saving in todays world - on expensive toys.  Most of your part of Europe does OK so I don't think tax evaded money is the explanation.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: bigmc on November 07, 2012, 03:29:23 AM
i dont think pl on minimum wage put anything aside.

in the uk, 50% of the employed people need a govt top up.

yes i do have a job, and im in switzerland, we follow different rules here,its the land where all the tax evaded money from other nations goes, ofc we have it good here

what are the upsides and down sides compared to living in the UK


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Jovo on November 07, 2012, 03:30:15 AM
because not every one bothers to improve them selves so they work bad jobs or not at all and waste everything on crap stuff, most people are just lazy too save up. Ofcouse some people just have it real rough, but i know people who are getting 1500 a week and have less value in a bank than me, all of their money goes on useless shit and it is unbelievabe how fast money gets wasted when you buy the most expensive stuff you dont need


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bindare_Dundat on November 07, 2012, 03:33:50 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Are you serious?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Stark on November 07, 2012, 03:44:45 AM
What is Capitalism?

The word capitalism is now quite commonly used to describe the social system in which we now live. It is also often assumed that it has existed, if not forever, then for most of human history. In fact, capitalism is a relatively new social system.1

But what exactly does 'capitalism' mean?
Class division

Capitalism is the social system which now exists in all countries of the world. Under this system, the means for producing and distributing goods (the land, factories, technology, transport system etc) are owned by a small minority of people. We refer to this group of people as the capitalist class. The majority of people must sell their ability to work in return for a wage or salary (who we refer to as the working class.)

The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalist class because they can make more money selling what we have produced than we cost to buy on the labour market. In this sense, the working class are exploited by the capitalist class. The capitalists live off the profits they obtain from exploiting the working class whilst reinvesting some of their profits for the further accumulation of wealth.

This is what we mean when we say there are two classes in society. It is a claim based upon simple facts about the society we live in today. This class division is the essential feature of capitalism. It may be popular to talk (usually vaguely) about various other 'classes' existing such as the 'middle class', but it is the two classes defined here that are the key to understanding capitalism.

It may not be exactly clear which class some relatively wealthy people are in. But there is no ambiguity about the status of the vast majority of the world's population. Members of the capitalist class certainly know who they are. And most members of the working class know that they need to work for a wage or salary in order to earn a living (or are dependent upon somebody who does, or depend on state benefits.)
The profit motive

In capitalism, the motive for producing goods and services is to sell them for a profit, not to satisfy people's needs. The products of capitalist production have to find a buyer, of course, but this is only incidental to the main aim of making a profit, of ending up with more money than was originally invested. This is not a theory that we have thought up but a fact you can easily confirm for yourself by reading the financial press. Production is started not by what consumers are prepared to pay for to satisfy their needs but by what the capitalists calculate can be sold at a profit. Those goods may satisfy human needs but those needs will not be met if people do not have sufficient money.

The profit motive is not just the result of greed on behalf of individual capitalists. They do not have a choice about it. The need to make a profit is imposed on capitalists as a condition for not losing their investments and their position as capitalists. Competition with other capitalists forces them to reinvest as much of their profits as they can afford to keep their means and methods of production up to date.

As you will see, we hold that it is the class division and profit motive of capitalism that is at the root of most of the world's problems today, from starvation to war, to alienation and crime. Every aspect of our lives is subordinated to the worst excesses of the drive to make profit. In capitalist society, our real needs will only ever come a poor second to the requirements of profit.
Capitalism = free market?

It is widely assumed that capitalism means a free market economy. But it is possible to have capitalism without a free market. The systems that existed in the U.S.S.R and exist in China and Cuba demonstrate this. These class-divided societies are widely called 'socialist'. A cursory glance at what in fact existed there reveals that these countries were simply 'state capitalist'. In supposedly 'socialist' Russia, for example, there still existed wage slavery, commodity production, buying, selling and exchange, with production only taking place when it was viable to do so. 'Socialist' Russia continued to trade according to the dictates of international capital and, like every other capitalist, state, was prepared to go to war to defend its economic interests. The role of the Soviet state became simply to act as the functionary of capital in the exploitation of wage labour, setting targets for production and largely controlling what could or could not be produced. We therefore feel justified in asserting that such countries had nothing to do with socialism as we define it. In fact, socialism as we define it could not exist in one country alone—like capitalism it must be a global system of society.

It is also possible (at least in theory) to have a free market economy that is not capitalist. Such a 'market economy' would involve farmers, artisans and shopkeepers each producing a particular product that they would exchange via the medium of money. There would be no profit-making and no class division—just independent producers exchanging goods for their mutual benefit. But it is doubtful whether such an economy has ever existed. The nearest that may have come to it would have been in some of the early colonial settlements in North America. Some Greens wish to see a return to this kind of economy. We do not think that it is a viable alternative for modern society. Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism.2


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 07, 2012, 03:49:39 AM
To many parts of the world everyone in America IS rich, fuckface.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: rocket on November 07, 2012, 03:51:10 AM
yes of course.

overall, everything is less expensive while wages are higher.

i mean the average jobs wages.

ppl here who are on the dole get more than a mainimum wage receptionist in the uk.

by everything cheaper i mean:

housing

food

gasoline

travelling

taxes



You are terribly naive. 

Here is how it works

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

The only time the average are "rich" is when they are exploiting other economies of a lesser scale.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on November 07, 2012, 03:52:31 AM
Great paradox of capitalism is that if everyone had the same opportunities and potential everyone would have exactly the same amount of wealth.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 07, 2012, 03:55:04 AM
i think you should update your view of the world

I'm in India for a conference right now.  I'll remind everyone how poor we are over in 'Merica.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bad Boy Dazza on November 07, 2012, 03:57:49 AM
ok, how comes,then, that the prices in uk are more expensive on everything compared to switerland, while the wages are lower?

Because the UK, like the USA, is going down the shitter.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: rocket on November 07, 2012, 04:00:23 AM
ok, how comes,then, that the prices in uk are more expensive on everything compared to switerland, while the wages are lower?

That doesn't make everybody rich - that makes most people poor and shit, capitalism has that covered :)



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: rocket on November 07, 2012, 04:01:46 AM
But to answer your question - if prices go up and people still buy the products, wages do not have to rise.

If wages go up, prices WILL go up.  If prices go up, wages don't necessarily go up.  That's what makes capitalism the thunderdome.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 07, 2012, 04:04:48 AM
yeah, while youre there, tell them about the prosperous economy in the bronx and similiar places


I'm waiting in line to shit through a hole in the floor into a hand dug ditch underneath.  The poor convection abilities of "old fashioned" radiator heating systems of many Bronx apartments will be a good conversation starter.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bad Boy Dazza on November 07, 2012, 04:17:29 AM
(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Communist-Obama--33751.jpg)(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l53/blpjr77/2280231473_87360f9671.jpg)
(http://www.coverups.com/photos-media/Obama-Commie-Blogger.jpg)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Conker on November 07, 2012, 04:26:51 AM
i'm not sure what you are getting at here?
surely switzerland is a near perfect model of capitalism working...

as you said you have lower taxation than most of the rest of the western world and a nearly exclusive private sector economy.

you keep saying how mush better you have things in switzerland than the UK but you are a more capitalist country than the uk, as you said a high % of those that are even working in the UK still get state top ups.


are you arguing for or against capitalism here?



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: deceiver on November 07, 2012, 04:29:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxEyKi1tL-k


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: WOOO on November 07, 2012, 04:33:05 AM
capitalism is horseshit...

by the time you learn grade 3 math you should understand that the financial 'underpinnings' of the market are invented values

moderate socialism is a realistic short-term alternative but the only way that a global village of 7+ billion will survive in the future is through a fully cooperative economy

greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant

find someone to love, have kids and live a happy life


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: deceiver on November 07, 2012, 04:34:16 AM
capitalism is horseshit...

by the time you learn grade 3 math you should understand that the financial 'underpinnings' of the market are invented values

moderate socialism is a realistic short-term alternative but the only way that a global village of 7+ billion will survive in the future is through a fully cooperative economy

greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant

find someone to love, have kids and live a happy life

ahahahahaahaha

You should lecture economy on a fucking university my friend, yet another self-taught economic "genius".


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 07, 2012, 06:20:53 AM
The fun, in a very general way, is only possible if there are many who fail and a few who win. A system that works on success will always make it extra sweet if you're among the top percentage.
What can be disheartening in such matters is that being top is not entirely defined by e.g. skill, will aka qualification but very often by birth, connections and luck because most people are too weak to make room for the stronger ones - ego.
This is extremely apparent in the working environment where having to put up with idiots, relative to yourself, can become a full time job.

No hands on system is intended to really work so that the single individual be able to attain freedom - that would defy the state/government/interest.
The crucial factor in how sour you want things to get is up to the rulers - a system managed by honest people can be good in any form for the common citizen.
We're headed into a neo feudalistic direction where many will wake up when their only possession is a mobile and a debt card.






Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Irongrip400 on November 07, 2012, 06:45:25 AM
Not everybody works as hard, or has the same level of intelligence. That's over simplifying it, but it's true.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 07, 2012, 08:16:42 AM
greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant
Fucking lol. You will never, ever eliminate the greedy. People that think like you will always be fucked over by others in a quest for money and power. Always have, always will. It's human nature. And no one can change that, not me, not a government, nor your misguided sense of ideals.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 07, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Not everybody works as hard, or has the same level of intelligence. That's over simplifying it, but it's true.
Bam.
Everyone is not equal, believe it or not. Some work hard, are more genetically gifted, or both, and therefore will make a better living situation for themselves. Its not unfair, its called life.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Marty Champions on November 07, 2012, 08:21:41 AM
Black people work just as hard as white people thus we should be a communist country


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Kulutues on November 07, 2012, 11:38:39 AM
We havent had capitalism in the USA for 100+ years now, we have had a welfare state handout empire that has completely turned everything upside down, you stupid fucking piece of human garbage


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 07, 2012, 11:40:00 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

No, capitalism works as in people who produce get what they deserve.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: thelamefalsehood on November 07, 2012, 11:55:17 AM
Capitalism gives you the OPPURTUNITY to gain wealth, it's up to the individual if they take advantage, or capitalize, on this.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Jovo on November 07, 2012, 03:07:07 PM
Not everybody works as hard, or has the same level of intelligence. That's over simplifying it, but it's true.

yep. pretty much.

Not every one thinks the same alos, for some people life is about the experiences not getting alot of money. But basically allows for the people who are driven and who are smart , to actually get rich. I mean think of the 1000's of ways of making money online atm, but most people are not bothered thinking of  website to make and sticking to it for a year or two when it makes no money. Look at simplyshredded.com, that site was nothing 3 or 4 years ago, but it has exploded and the guy is getting 20k a month ...


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: BILL ANVIL on November 07, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
J ust
O ver
B roke

capitalism is meant to keep us as slaves, so we can pay taxes until we die, to keep the economy going and further the military industrial complex. capitalism and democracy simply cannot exist together, money and greed is just too powerful to keep equality and balance.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 07, 2012, 03:52:25 PM
And if Natural lifters who claim to constantly make gains over a 10 year period would be benching 1000 pounds and have 30 inch arms by now. It's all mental illness!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 07, 2012, 04:04:58 PM
Everybody is in a hurry to go nowhere. What's it all for? Get to the top and you're labelled some pretentious douchebag who is out of touch with reality. Stay at the bottom and you're labelled a lazy douchebag. And everyone in the middle bitches about the people above and the people below.

SO FUCK IT. JUST LET GO AND TELL THE HIERARCHY WHO CREATED THE MATRIX " I'M NOT PLAYING YOUR GAME---ITS SILLY!!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYxp7-Au4E


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Papper on November 07, 2012, 04:32:18 PM
good points here.

also, imo people generally are crap with saving money. if two generations save, the next in line can spend it all easily. everybody can't be "rich" of course, but many have the potential to save visciously and have substantial money.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 07, 2012, 04:40:03 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

I think you misunderstand capitalism - not surprising, really. I'll simply point one thing out: capitalism has been the engine that has raised the standard of living across the board. It's because of capitalism that that average people today can afford to live a lifestyle that Kings and Queens didn't enjoy and what were once luxuries are now disposable everyday items.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 07, 2012, 04:46:11 PM
not suprisingly, youre confusing innovation with capitalism.

Not quite, but if thinking that makes you feel better, by all means, think it :)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Donny on November 07, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
Not quite, but if thinking that makes you feel better, by all means, think it :)
well i feel better too. Agree with galeniko.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 07, 2012, 04:55:16 PM
well i feel better too. Agree with galeniko.

Great.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 07, 2012, 04:57:20 PM
Capitalism only works ultimately for the rich or those who get the opportunity to  step over others.

If you analyze America or China (which is today capitalist), the rich are getting richer, while the poor poorer.

The whole monteary system, credit system, banking system is at fault too. Interest is one of the greatest evils in society.

A rich person with money can make money off of money. While a poor person who even once makes a loan from that rich person may become enslaved through interest and just become poorer and poorer no matter how much they struggle.

This is the reality of north america, europe and everywhere today.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Nails on November 07, 2012, 04:59:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrHeg77LF4Y


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Donny on November 07, 2012, 05:01:11 PM
Great.
thank you


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 07, 2012, 05:08:23 PM
before anyone bring up the argument that muslim banks dont charge interest on loans, they do, they just declare it as something else.

but i agree, chargin interest for a loan, surely a state musntnt charge interest to survive.

when a bank or some thrust gains money, its always,always at someone elses expense.
zeitgeist is a bit of starwars meets communism imo.

were not quite there yet,also crime going away if everyones educated and moneyless system, i dont think so.



Well there is no 100% islamic establishment of a caliphate or islamic trade/economic system. It would be a disaster for the west it's one of the reasons of a war against Islam. It is the only system that stands against western liberalism and capitalism. Even as a monetary system, Islam endorses the gold/silver standard.

Gadaffi although not a religious guy -- in fact quite anti-religion in some respects (he bombed Muslim villages way before NATO shit) he wanted to implement a monetary system based on gold/silver/oil for all African and Middle-eastern countries. That's why Libya was invaded.

There are attempts to bring back islamic finance across the muslim world. There are indeed interest free banking options, hence some of the investment projects and organizations that were interest-free were not hit like western system backed banking institutions during the collapse of 2008.

On the other hand those that DID invest through credit/interest type systems such as UAE, got screwed real bad.

It is true that some institutes that tried to copy western systems but claim to be islamic were basically interest in disguise. This is not allowed in Islam and naturally backfired. Calling a turd not a turd, when it's a turd doesn't change it from being a turd. Interest is interest no matter how you reshuffle it.

The Islamic empire flourished through trade. Where real valuables are traded throughout the world, there is wealth in circulation.

When there is imaginary numbers, interest, bubbled up money upon money, circulation of wealth amongst elites, those less well off being deprived and leeched. There is disaster. This is the opposite of the islamic model.

Ironically while I was in school and studied different ideologies, I found good in capitalism, good in socialism and communism, but also a lot of evil and wrong in both. Both were extremes of the other. The Islamic approach is somewhere in the middle, taking the good from capitalism and the good from socialism.

Empowering the people as individuals while also caring for the less fortunate with the goal of establishing everyone, so that people are not beggers either and preventing people who attain position or establishment from ever exploiting others.

For example western countries tax 30-60% on wealth on average. In an islamic caliphate, Muslims pay zakat which is a charity that is to take care of the people around 2%. Non-muslims pay jizya which is basically a citizenship tax and is also around 2%. No one is taxed on goods they buy/sell/trade/travel with. So what you earn is your money, but you are obliged at the end of the year to contribute jizya and zakat.

There is also an establishment of a state treasury which is always there for projects for the nation, for infrastructure, for research, for construction, for well-fare, for emergencies (food rations for example, etc...)

However today there are only secular dictatorships and kingdoms across the Muslim world.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 07, 2012, 05:29:12 PM
technological progress has nothing to do with capitalism.

No doubt. Capitalism is, after all, an economic system; it just happens to be the one that fosters and promotes technological progress.


infact, capitalism can be a blocker of technological invention and progress.

Capitalism is based on one simple fact: that everyone's work has an objective value. It does nothing to block technological invention or progress.



examples, oil industries buying patents for cars who dont run on gasoline, to blck the progress and squeeze out the market of oil some more.

The inventors behind those patents voluntarily chose to sell their ideas and I have absolute no problem with that. After all, when I invent something, it's mine to do with as I please. If I sell it to someone, it's his to do with as he pleases. If someone in the oil market bought a patent on some critical component for electric cars, which he then refused to license in an effort to squeeze the oil market some more, more power to them.

Since you mentioned electric cars, can you provide a reference to one such patent? I've heard this "the oil companies are preventing electric cars from being made" nonsense before and it's simply not true. The fact is that the technology necessary to make a practical electric car that can come close to competing with gasoline vehicles wasn't there up until very recently, and now that is, it still isn't very affordable. But that will change, gradually. Just the other day, for example, research showed that battery storage capacities and charging times can be dramatically improved with the addition of crushed silicone andoes.


or the banks who denied nikola tesla credits but gave credits-loans to the inferior thomas edison.

Tesla was brilliant you won't get any arguments from me; he shaped the future and he was a man well ahead of his time. And while Edison might very well be an inferior "inventor" he was the superior business man, and his contributions were equally important, although in a very different way than Tesla's were.

But the bottom line is that Tesla's work was valued differently by banks, who judged him to be more of a credit risk that Edison. Tesla wasn't the first inventor to face this problem and he won't be the last. This isn't a problem with capitalism.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Hypertrophy on November 07, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
No doubt. Capitalism is, after all, an economic system; it just happens to be the one that fosters and promotes technological progress.


Capitalism is based on one simple fact: that everyone's work has an objective value. It does nothing to block technological invention or progress.



The inventors behind those patents voluntarily chose to sell their ideas and I have absolute no problem with that. After all, when I invent something, it's mine to do with as I please. If I sell it to someone, it's his to do with as he pleases. If someone in the oil market bought a patent on some critical component for electric cars, which he then refused to license in an effort to squeeze the oil market some more, more power to them.

Since you mentioned electric cars, can you provide a reference to one such patent? I've heard this "the oil companies are preventing electric cars from being made" nonsense before and it's simply not true. The fact is that the technology necessary to make a practical electric car that can come close to competing with gasoline vehicles wasn't there up until very recently, and now that is, it still isn't very affordable. But that will change, gradually. Just the other day, for example, research showed that battery storage capacities and charging times can be dramatically improved with the addition of crushed silicone andoes.


Tesla was brilliant you won't get any arguments from me; he shaped the future and he was a man well ahead of his time. And while Edison might very well be an inferior "inventor" he was the superior business man, and his contributions were equally important, although in a very different way than Tesla's were.

But the bottom line is that Tesla's work was valued differently by banks, who judged him to be more of a credit risk that Edison. Tesla wasn't the first inventor to face this problem and he won't be the last. This isn't a problem with capitalism.

Excellent bit of writing there avxo, and quite accurate!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 07, 2012, 05:37:44 PM
No doubt. Capitalism is, after all, an economic system; it just happens to be the one that fosters and promotes technological progress.


Capitalism is based on one simple fact: that everyone's work has an objective value. It does nothing to block technological invention or progress.



The inventors behind those patents voluntarily chose to sell their ideas and I have absolute no problem with that. After all, when I invent something, it's mine to do with as I please. If I sell it to someone, it's his to do with as he pleases. If someone in the oil market bought a patent on some critical component for electric cars, which he then refused to license in an effort to squeeze the oil market some more, more power to them.

Since you mentioned electric cars, can you provide a reference to one such patent? I've heard this "the oil companies are preventing electric cars from being made" nonsense before and it's simply not true. The fact is that the technology necessary to make a practical electric car that can come close to competing with gasoline vehicles wasn't there up until very recently, and now that is, it still isn't very affordable. But that will change, gradually. Just the other day, for example, research showed that battery storage capacities and charging times can be dramatically improved with the addition of crushed silicone andoes.


Tesla was brilliant you won't get any arguments from me; he shaped the future and he was a man well ahead of his time. And while Edison might very well be an inferior "inventor" he was the superior business man, and his contributions were equally important, although in a very different way than Tesla's were.

But the bottom line is that Tesla's work was valued differently by banks, who judged him to be more of a credit risk that Edison. Tesla wasn't the first inventor to face this problem and he won't be the last. This isn't a problem with capitalism.
We dont take kindly to your kind around here, what with you logic and reasoning.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 07, 2012, 06:15:06 PM
We dont take kindly to your kind around here, what with you logic and reasoning.

Haha ;D So funny. That made my day, thanks.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on November 07, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 07, 2012, 06:28:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
10 minutes? TL;DW, too short of an attention span.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on November 07, 2012, 06:43:00 PM
10 minutes? TL;DW, too short of an attention span.

What motivates people in cognitively challenging jobs is autonomy, mastery and purpose. In studies more pay has lead to poorer performance.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 07, 2012, 09:34:28 PM
are you saying there arent many underqualified ppl in high positions who only got there through connections?

comeon, even average wage jobs go away "underhand".

There probably are.  Being connected is a big part of the equation.  You need to get to know people, make friends with the right people, suck up to some people, etc.   All part of the game...


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 07, 2012, 09:58:02 PM
capitalism is supremely efficient at allocating resources to where they are most valued and is the best economic system we have available to us.  in theory a central command economy could be more efficient if governed properly, but in the real world there are far too many complex issues involved in the production and distribution of goods in order for a central command to be efficient. all that aside, it is the only system which puts individual liberty above all other concerns. which makes it vastly superior to other systems which try to achieve equality by means of reducing liberty.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 07, 2012, 10:04:14 PM
capitalism is supremely efficient at allocating resources to where they are most valued and is the best economic system we have available to us.  in theory a central command economy could be more efficient if governed properly, but in the real world there are far too many complex issues involved in the production and distribution of goods in order for a central command to be efficient. all that aside, it is the only system which puts individual liberty above all other concerns. which makes it vastly superior to other systems which try to achieve equality by means of reducing liberty.

You surprise me everyday, you've definitely taken steps back towards reality!  8)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 07, 2012, 10:06:48 PM
You surprise me everyday, you've definitely taken steps back towards reality!  8)
you mean that to be a compliment, but i take it as an insult! 

that being said..

thanks, i guess.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 07, 2012, 10:07:43 PM
you mean that to be a compliment, but i take it as an insult! 

that being said..

thanks, i guess.



:D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Ropo on November 08, 2012, 12:31:41 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Problem is that you don't understand it. Principle of American capitalism is quite simple. There is two group of people. One group owns all the food, all places to work, all goods, etc. and another group do all the work. First group will keep all the prices so high, that your work is never enough to rise you from the working class to the upper class, for that you need some kind of lottery ticket etc. You have to invent something useful for example, like wireless electricity. If you can't, you will be in the working class all your life, no matter how hard you work. This is how American capitalism works. There is no matter if you have your own business or not, if you have to buy goods to sell them for your customers, you are still in the second hand, while first hand take most of the money. If you don't obey and be nice, they take your work, and outsource it to some third world country, and that's it. It isn't quite same anywhere in the world, USA has tweaked it up to the max.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 08, 2012, 11:43:10 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

It does work, I have a few older cousins that have inherited tons of money from a few generations back.  I know other people with irresponsible parents that aren't getting shit.

There's no reason a normal healthy person can't build a big savings to pass onto their children.  If they've instilled values, responsibility and a good work ethic in their children, that inheritance will be built up and passed on again.  

It all comes down to choices, that's why some people work in Paper Mills all their life, they have children before they're ready, spend their extra money on beer and cigarettes, rent their furniture from one of those places that rape you, etc... POOR CHOICES IN LIFE.  I don't think you realize how dumb some people are, luckily though... The world needs ditch diggers too.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 11:56:51 AM
Capitalism is bullshit.  Why?  Because in order for it to work, there must always be someone rich and always someone poor.  It's true.  That's the way the system is set up.  Then you are sold some bullshit fucking dream 99% of people will never achieve.  The only good that comes of it is new products and technologies that inevitably become consumed by the oligarchs.

Does that mean we should go full commy or socialist?  No on both.  Does that mean we should get out of the business of capitalism?  In my perfect world yes. There are many other ideas but we're so used to this bullshit monetary system (not backed by gold or silver) just money printed from thin air, loaned to banks etc... 

As long as they keep sellin' you the dream and you keep buying, the wheel keeps spinnin'. 
When we're ready to make real, actual, change as in ditching the monetary system, count me in.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: War-Horse on November 08, 2012, 11:59:59 AM
Great paradox of capitalism is that if everyone had the same opportunities and potential everyone would have exactly the same amount of wealth.



Exactly.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: freespirit on November 08, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
 :D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 08, 2012, 12:01:36 PM
Everyone isn't equal though, and probably never will be.

Capitalism provides a role for everyone, from those people that hold advertisements on the side of the road to Nuclear Physicists.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 08, 2012, 12:55:25 PM
Capitalism is bullshit.  Why?  Because in order for it to work, there must always be someone rich and always someone poor.  It's true.  That's the way the system is set up.  Then you are sold some bullshit fucking dream 99% of people will never achieve.  The only good that comes of it is new products and technologies that inevitably become consumed by the oligarchs.

Does that mean we should go full commy or socialist?  No on both.  Does that mean we should get out of the business of capitalism?  In my perfect world yes. There are many other ideas but we're so used to this bullshit monetary system (not backed by gold or silver) just money printed from thin air, loaned to banks etc... 

As long as they keep sellin' you the dream and you keep buying, the wheel keeps spinnin'. 
When we're ready to make real, actual, change as in ditching the monetary system, count me in.

The time  is now and nobody with power who benefits from the current system will support your deeds.
Buy local as much as you can, grow your own stuff and do not buy any new gadgets(mobile, pc, shitbox890, clit buzz, ...) but acquire used ones instead, build strong strategic connections with like minded people around you, organize ... the list goes on.
Joe/tte Blow will never buy into this so "your" on "you're" own.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 02:49:41 PM
Capitalism is bullshit.  Why?  Because in order for it to work, there must always be someone rich and always someone poor. 

i understand why you would think that. however my understanding of economics is that it isnt a "zero sum" game. meaning that everyone can get rich at the same time, with no need for there to be any losers.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 03:13:41 PM
'If capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now.'  See: Marxist Theory 101.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Dr Dutch on November 08, 2012, 03:15:45 PM
Everyone is rich by now, compared to 150 yrs ago....


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 03:19:20 PM
Everyone is rich by now, compared by 150 yrs ago....

No everyone has an IPHONE compared to 150 years ago, but are broke as shit and in debt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/21/afford-food-americans_n_1818280.html

The lifestyle and way of life of the west is a combination of liberalism, consumerism and capitalism. A pile of crap where children are born and raised from a young age to be consumers and while growing up to adulthood trained to be consumers.

First it's toys, videogames, for girls makeup, songs, music, movies, everything is 'fun fun fun', then clubbing, shopping, the whole life revolves around working and spending and that is all there is to the purpose of life. So my co-workers kill themselves so they can 'retire' as if you know for sure you are going to live past 60+.

Everything is about enjoying, fun and spending. It's an illusion.

It's an obsession of being a consumer.

So everything is about the latest gadget, latest toy, latest computer, latest phone, latest movie, latest song, that's how the western social model lives and breaths and the pawns in it, consumers, you, me, everybody, (although I rather not include myself), is a sheeple that works works works and spends spends spends.

But if you get slapped for a moment, no one owns that brand new car, no one owns that house, no one owns even maybe that phone they have.

It's owned by financial institutions, loans, banks, government, etc...

This whole system is sooo flawed and ready to crumble, it only takes a sudden thick and spring of a string to cause an earthquake.



Hell if interenet, google and wikipedia dissapeared today, we'd have one dumb populance who doesn't know shit about anywhere or anything. Take away everyone's smart phones, facebook, internet, google, computer, etc... you have a piece of clueless meat that was being trained to only consumme


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
i understand why you would think that. however my understanding of economics is that it isnt a "zero sum" game. meaning that everyone can get rich at the same time, with no need for there to be any losers.



Taking human nature into consideration.  Capitalism will never result in everyone being financially successful.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Hahaha, I knew I had to check back in for a reason. Comedy relief. Hahahahaha.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 03:47:02 PM
Hahaha, I knew I had to check back in for a reason. Comedy relief. Hahahahaha.
You lasted a day!? Longer than I thought you would.   ;D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 03:50:38 PM
Kinda of a silly question in this thread.. You are assuming that every human being has the same drive to be successful.. Not everyone can be rich.. But the biggest fault of capitalism is that too many are just lazy.. Plain and simple..everyone can be more successful than what they are that is the basis of capitalism.. Most are just too damn lazy.. Some have actual social and economic obstacles that do make it harder.. But not impossible..
 
I have a friend that is form the uk.. He actually told me one time " I would never want to live in the united states.. I like to visit.. But you people work too hard".. I told him that is what gets you a head in life.. He said "no thanks. I'll stay lazy and just get by".. Then just laughed..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: daddy8ball on November 08, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
If bodybuilding worked -- everybody would be huge by now.
If writing operating systems worked and made you rich - everyone would be Bill Gates by now.
If practicing basketball made you skilled -- everyone would be Micheal Jordan by now.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 03:54:02 PM
You lasted a day!? Longer than I thought you would.   ;D

Hey, If Obama can go back on his word to the world, I can write this one off for a gimmick.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 03:57:04 PM
Hey, If Obama can go back on his word to the world, I can write this one off for a gimmick.
There's no explaining nutty thinking. Glad you came back.    ;D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 03:59:15 PM
Kinda of a silly question in this thread.. You are assuming that every human being has the same drive to be successful.. Not everyone can be rich.. But the biggest fault of capitalism is that too many are just lazy.. Plain and simple..everyone can be more successful than what they are that is the basis of capitalism.. Most are just too damn lazy.. Some have actual social and economic obstacles that do make it harder.. But not impossible..
 
I have a friend that is form the uk.. He actually told me one time " I would never want to live in the united states.. I like to visit.. But you people work too hard".. I told him that is what gets you a head in life.. He said "no thanks. I'll stay lazy and just get by".. Then just laughed..

I think you really misunderstood your friend.

I've been to europe, africa, middle east and north america.

You'd be surprised how much, much happier people are around the world outside of north america.

People kill themselves to buy the latest stupid gadget and just PAY BILLS in north america.

While in other places of the world, people worry about having a home and food, other things are extra, not priority in life.

Because consumerism is the life style, norm, purpose in life, people KILL themselves at the expense of health and everything else just to 'attain' the unattainable.

"Famous" people, "stars", media, "fashion", movies, music, millionares or rather billionaires today further skew the reality and purpose of life and people kill themselves to be like these people.

Hence North America has the largest rate of prescription of pharmaceutical drugs, in particular anti-depressants and other psycho drugs.

People are indeed very unhappy and poor in north america. It's an illusion of wealth, no one owns shit. Just look at the US government. What is it now 17 trillion dollars in debt? Can you even picture that number. The same goes for the consumer citizens.

Foreclosed homes? Paying 40 years for a house? It's slavery for life. You kill yourself your entire life, to die.

The system is designed to make the already rich, richer. And those that want to 'step it up', 'everyone can do it', is not exactly as the fantasy foretells. You have to kill, steal, run and step over a few people, establish connections and then when you maybe reach up there, you become just like those other already rich who will exploit those below them.

This society is designed to keep the rich rich and the poor poor, just working slaves that spend and spend.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 04:05:22 PM
You seem to be a very well informed man Mr. Ahmed. keep it up. 8)


What's your background Ahmed?....No homo-land security.
Aren't you the white Arab?  What's your educational background?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 04:10:41 PM
Good to see you back Coach.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 04:12:54 PM
 No.. Did not misunderstand him.  We have had that conversation before.. He basically gets money from
Government  and works very little.. He does side jobs ect and still has all the latest gadgets.. He came here and tried to work for a buddy of mine who needed himat 5 am.. He thought that was ridiculous.. He wanted to work for me at my gym.. I told hi. He could open the gym at 5 30 am.. He asked why so early.? I told him people get Up and workout before their jobs.. He said gyms in the uk did not open that early and said we were crazy ect.. Now before you think that he was particular case I have heard this from my cousins in Scotland too..
 Now I am not saying you are wrong I regard to health of USA.. I do think we are silly in many regards.. My job is now making us work on thanksgiving this year among other holidays to get a "better share of the market".. And sadly most people will not be able to retire and will work their whole lives..
 
   Now that being said look at Greece and others who's people are actually rioting because they cant afford to let people retire I their 50s.. And most of the rioters are not even working yet lol.. Socialism doesnot work well after a while either.. The gov just can't afford it.. So nothing is perfect but I would rather make my own way than be too much further indentured to the gov..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Nails on November 08, 2012, 04:14:04 PM
Good to see the Coach back in action


(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/joe.jpg)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 08, 2012, 04:16:00 PM


Taking human nature into consideration.  Capitalism will never result in everyone being financially successful.

Everyone isn't even successful in school, athletics, etc...  How can everyone be successful financially?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 04:17:02 PM
No.. Did not misunderstand him.  We have had that conversation before.. He basically gets money from
Government  and works very little.. He does side jobs ect and still has all the latest gadgets.. He came here and tried to work for a buddy of mine who needed himat 5 am.. He thought that was ridiculous.. He wanted to work for me at my gym.. I told hi. He could open the gym at 5 30 am.. He asked why so early.? I told him people get Up and workout before their jobs.. He said gyms in the uk did not open that early and said we were crazy ect.. Now before you think that he was particular case I have heard this from my cousins in Scotland too..
 Now I am not saying you are wrong I regard to health of USA.. I do think we are silly in many regards.. My job is now making us work on thanksgiving this year among other holidays to get a "better share of the market".. And sadly most people will not be able to retire and will work their whole lives..
 
   Now that being said look at Greece and others who's people are actually rioting because they cant afford to let people retire I their 50s.. And most of the rioters are not even working yet lol.. Socialism doesnot work well after a while either.. The gov just can't afford it.. So nothing is perfect but I would rather make my own way than be too much further indentured to the gov..


What I'm about to say I don't believe in, I'm just saying it because it's true and I know that it's part of the ultimate plan.  Socialism works when everyone is doing it...i.e. one world currency, one world government.  There is no debt...well for the government there isn't.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Nails on November 08, 2012, 04:19:29 PM
you guys think this Stud voted for Obama  ???


(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=440890.0;attach=484137;image)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 04:23:58 PM
You seem to be a very well informed man Mr. Ahmed. keep it up. 8)


What's your background Ahmed?....No homo-land security.
Aren't you the white Arab?  What's your educational background?

lmao I am not Arab I'm white european rest is confidential ;)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:25:50 PM
coming from a guy who believes obama is a communist from kenya.

 ::)

thanks for your shit contribution and breaking you promise, i remember a recent declaration "a word is a word".



1. He is.

2. As long as I don't break promises in real life, I'm good. This isn't real life.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:27:07 PM
Good to see the Coach back in action


(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/Intenseone/joe.jpg)

Thanks, It's been along time since I've been on, something like a year. But I'm back ;D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 04:28:50 PM
My wife and I were cracking up about this LMAO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-2i71bqGw


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 04:29:38 PM
I agree wiggs.. The issue becomes which country is actually footing the bill for the others.. In a perfect world on paper it sounds good.. But real world, which I hate to say many extreme liberals have a hard time with, is much different..Some countries will bring absolutely nothing to the game yet reap rewards..

Ahmed, unfortunately that person and hundreds of thousands like her voted.. Based on a phone or something else petty.. There should be a testing process of the issues at hand before you can vote.. Don't know the issues no voting.. But then again many don't want that.. ::) oh yeah, that is why capitalism does not work for . Well... Everyone..lol


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Nails on November 08, 2012, 04:33:29 PM
Thanks, It's been along time since I've been on, something like a year. But I'm back ;D

Shit hasnt been the same since tuesday coach , Even Ron has been gone taking care of his finances







Well.. another 4 years of tough economic times and most interesting politics ahead for the United States.  And since the Republican's still control the House, the president will need to actually work with them, and vice versa.  Let's see where it goes.

It California, where I am, they passed Proposition 30, which raises taxes for those who earn more than $250,000 by 1%, then 2% for those over $350, and 3% for those over $500K (or something like that).  So basically, some of the high rollers in California might just find another place to move if needed, or if they feel like they may get a ton of money (hence, why some people are selling this year, aka George Lucas and others).  Otherwise, you may pay a ton more in taxes.

Oh, and of course, the porn law - which requires actors to wear condoms in movie if filmed in LA County. Stupid.  I guess this billion dollar industry will move 20 miles away to Ventura County now.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 04:34:25 PM
Everyone isn't even successful in school, athletics, etc...  How can everyone be successful financially?

Well, the system is supposed to be set up so that all capable men and women can earn a living and support a family.  You used to be able to do that with just the father working. Now, depending on where you live and perhaps other factors, you need two parents to be able to do it an maintain the life style you had then.  In addition, you both will be working so hard to maintain that (we're not talk about exceptions to the rule) standard of living, raising children will become a hobby cause that's just about enough time you'll have.  And you'll both will be so tired and grumpy you won't even enjoy each other.


This is fucking madness!  Do you really believe that's what you we're put here to do is be a corporate puppet?  Then people create these sub-groups that keep each other in check..."Better not do anything outta the norm Bob. You wouldn't wanna be considered one of "those guys".  This goes for religions, fraternities, sororities, militarism,  gangs, sports and other entities where group think is encouraged and any other behavior is frowned upon.

Critical thinking is a lost art.  We are raised NOT TO CRITICALLY THINK but to follow orders and memorize shit.  Not conceptualize and dream and to come up with better way to do things.  It's frightening because we have the ability to do so much more and no one would have to starve, or die from war and so many sicknesses could be cured and technologies created to make the earth a better earth.

But no. Greed.  Shelter, food and sex is what it comes down to.  Fucking pathetic. spit'..... :-X


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:35:10 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

Thats how it works now or did I miss something?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

Define "plenty of money"

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

If you're broke and living from paycheck to paycheck, it's usually because you don't make enough to pay for excessive debt.

so, where is the problem?

The problem is people have too much debt. Credit cards, personal loans, car loans, etc. In other words, they spend more than they take in.....like our government. Our debt outweighs or GDP at present.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:37:53 PM
As long as people purchase on impulse instead of thinking things through and budgeting, this problem will always exist.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:46:01 PM
thats much better coach, and welcome back btw ;D

seems like the system isnt too bad, but the people and their greed and feeling of entitlement makes it a bit of a problem.

Thanks.

Our country is changing for the worse, no doubt about that. Obama is trying to turn this country into something that has NEVER worked. In all honesty the people who voted him back in, I don't seriously think they understand the consequences of their actions. We live in a "what can you do for NOW" society without either thinking about or caring how this is going to absolutely DEVASTATE our kids. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 04:47:28 PM
I don't know why Americans are so slow and stupid sometimes.

Obama is not changing or doing anything. You realize he is just a face person, an actor, a puppet.

The US has been heading in the same direction regardless of who the puppet is. Period.

It's going to be more wars, more draconian laws, more suppression, more rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, it's just by design as it is. Dickheads are in power and it is not because 'obama', he just gets a big fat paycheque and reads prewritten scripts. That's all his 'job' is.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 08, 2012, 04:47:40 PM
thats much better coach, and welcome back btw ;D

seems like the system isnt too bad, but the people and their greed and feeling of entitlement makes it a bit of a problem.

Its education. A lot of kids getting out of high school in America don't know how to balance a check book. Hell most don't even have one. They have an ATM card and let the bank balance it.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 04:53:53 PM
I don't know why Americans are so slow and stupid sometimes.

Obama is not changing or doing anything. You realize he is just a face person, an actor, a puppet.

The US has been heading in the same direction regardless of who the puppet is. Period.

It's going to be more wars, more draconian laws, more suppression, more rich getting richer and poor getting poorer, it's just by design as it is. Dickheads are in power and it is not because 'obama', he just gets a big fat paycheque and reads prewritten scripts. That's all his 'job' is.

So all of the economic numbers in the last four years are fake?  ::)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 08, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Thanks.

Our country is changing for the worse, no doubt about that. Obama is trying to turn this country into something that has NEVER worked. In all honesty the people who voted him back in, I don't seriously think they understand the consequences of their actions. We live in a "what can you do for NOW" society without either thinking about or caring how this is going to absolutely DEVASTATE our kids. 

I totally dislike him, but he's a mere puppet and not a driving force for what's going on or better not going on.
Think about it in a positive way - the whole thing will collapse and the smug freedom fighter's taking the blame. If the conservatives, and I'm using this term loosely here, thought that a Mitt Romney was a valid candidate they're out of their mind and need to reenter their ship of delusion and repopulate England.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 04:57:29 PM
So all of the economic numbers in the last four years are fake?  ::)
Actually, they've been anemic, as would be found in any stifled economy, but they're not fake. You need to let go of your looniness, Coach. Free yourself.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 08, 2012, 05:02:11 PM
Well, the system is supposed to be set up so that all capable men and women can earn a living and support a family.  You used to be able to do that with just the father working. Now, depending on where you live and perhaps other factors, you need two parents to be able to do it an maintain the life style you had then.  In addition, you both will be working so hard to maintain that (we're not talk about exceptions to the rule) standard of living, raising children will become a hobby cause that's just about enough time you'll have.  And you'll both will be so tired and grumpy you won't even enjoy each other.


This is fucking madness!  Do you really believe that's what you we're put here to do is be a corporate puppet?  Then people create these sub-groups that keep each other in check..."Better not do anything outta the norm Bob. You wouldn't wanna be considered one of "those guys".  This goes for religions, fraternities, sororities, militarism,  gangs, sports and other entities where group think is encouraged and any other behavior is frowned upon.

Critical thinking is a lost art.  We are raised NOT TO CRITICALLY THINK but to follow orders and memorize shit.  Not conceptualize and dream and to come up with better way to do things.  It's frightening because we have the ability to do so much more and no one would have to starve, or die from war and so many sicknesses could be cured and technologies created to make the earth a better earth.

But no. Greed.  Shelter, food and sex is what it comes down to.  Fucking pathetic. spit'..... :-X

I see what you're saying about the price of living going up. 

As for the rest, people that will accept that corporate puppet lifestyle (like the movie office space) kind of deserve it.  I mean if they'll put up with it, so be it.

No one is forcing them


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 05:03:12 PM
I totally dislike him, but he's a mere puppet and not a driving force for what's going on or better not going on.
Think about it in a positive way - the whole thing will collapse and the smug freedom fighter's taking the blame. If the conservatives, and I'm using this term loosely here, thought that a Mitt Romney was a valid candidate they're out of their mind and need to reenter their ship of delusion and repopulate England.


I sincerely like Romney. His family values, his charitable giving and I really do think he actually cares about people. Someone said today that we not had a more charitable candidate than Romney, ever. Being someone who knows business, and I mean he REALLY knows business, could have turned this country around, economically fairly quick. In this situation we're in, we need someone with big business experience. Like I said a long time ago, my business is small but I took the precautions to "Obama proof" myself for the future. Yesterday I actually hired a business coach to help us grow to double of what we are now within a year.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 05:08:42 PM
Anyone remember when people were embarrassed to say they were on unemployment or government assistance? That was back when people knew what it was like to work for something or start a business that THEY built.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 05:14:43 PM
I sincerely like Romney. His family values, his charitable giving and I really do think he actually cares about people. Someone said today that we not had a more charitable candidate than Romney, ever. Being someone who knows business, and I mean he REALLY knows business, could have turned this country around, economically fairly quick. In this situation we're in, we need someone with big business experience. Like I said a long time ago, my business is small but I took the precautions to "Obama proof" myself for the future. Yesterday I actually hired a business coach to help us grow to double of what we are now within a year.
Yes. Because business success = moral superiority. You are such a hypocrite I can't believe your tongue doesn't go running down the hall in shame.    :-\


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 08, 2012, 05:16:16 PM
So all of the economic numbers in the last four years are fake?  ::)

You're more naive than I thought... I hope this picture makes you think.... seriously...

(http://0.tqn.com/d/magic/1/0/J/Y/science-magic-trick-s3a.jpg)

I posted once detailed graphs and charts all facts from US based websites and US gov websites, outlining all the spending on Israel and the many wars the US has started in the last ten years. It got deleted by resident clown Hugo Chavez the 'mod', but it showed where and how the money went.

You can't seriously expect this 'society' to flourish by destroying other nations, and indebting itself endlessly.

You can argue elephant this donkey that aaaallll day long, but you'll remain ignorant of what's going on thinking you're making a difference.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: #1 Klaus fan on November 08, 2012, 05:17:27 PM
Starting a business is just another arbitary economic trick as only 10 % of businesses make profit.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 08, 2012, 05:19:41 PM
I sincerely like Romney. His family values, his charitable giving and I really do think he actually cares about people. Someone said today that we not had a more charitable candidate than Romney, ever. Being someone who knows business, and I mean he REALLY knows business, could have turned this country around, economically fairly quick. In this situation we're in, we need someone with big business experience. Like I said a long time ago, my business is small but I took the precautions to "Obama proof" myself for the future. Yesterday I actually hired a business coach to help us grow to double of what we are now within a year.

I like Romney too, but there are many aspects of his that were off putting to the general derp and made voters hesitate to trust him when dunking the ballot.
I have  the feeling he was just a figure to keep the illusion alive that there's an actual battle. The real forces behind politics are extremely detrimental to the productive individual/community/state and no candidate can call them out unless they wish to be punished be it career or life wise.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Irongrip400 on November 08, 2012, 05:19:50 PM
Problem is that you don't understand it. Principle of American capitalism is quite simple. There is two group of people. One group owns all the food, all places to work, all goods, etc. and another group do all the work. First group will keep all the prices so high, that your work is never enough to rise you from the working class to the upper class, for that you need some kind of lottery ticket etc. You have to invent something useful for example, like wireless electricity. If you can't, you will be in the working class all your life, no matter how hard you work. This is how American capitalism works. There is no matter if you have your own business or not, if you have to buy goods to sell them for your customers, you are still in the second hand, while first hand take most of the money. If you don't obey and be nice, they take your work, and outsource it to some third world country, and that's it. It isn't quite same anywhere in the world, USA has tweaked it up to the max.

Marxist rant  ::)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 05:26:23 PM
You're more naive than I thought... I hope this picture makes you think.... seriously...

(http://0.tqn.com/d/magic/1/0/J/Y/science-magic-trick-s3a.jpg)

I posted once detailed graphs and charts all facts from US based websites and US gov websites, outlining all the spending on Israel and the many wars the US has started in the last ten years. It got deleted by resident clown Hugo Chavez the 'mod', but it showed where and how the money went.

You can't seriously expect this 'society' to flourish by destroying other nations, and indebting itself endlessly.

You can argue elephant this donkey that aaaallll day long, but you'll remain ignorant of what's going on thinking you're making a difference.

Whatever you say chief. Are these the same "charts" government or otherwise that Obama is using to post up those bullshit 7.8% UE numbers 2 weeks before the election? I have a friend (sons Godfather) who is the CEO of probably the biggest Auto insurance brokerage in the country. His company will be now forced to pay an ADDITIONAL $4mil in healthcare. Not only does he have to raise his costs to manage that, he also has to layoff employees from select areas around the country. I know you're going to come back with some bullshit excuse, but this reality.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 05:33:09 PM
Whatever you say chief. Are these the same "charts" government or otherwise that Obama is using to post up those bullshit 7.8% UE numbers 2 weeks before the election? I have a friend (sons Godfather) who is the CEO of probably the biggest Auto insurance brokerage in the country. His company will be now forced to pay an ADDITIONAL $4mil in healthcare. Not only does he have to raise his costs to manage that, he also has to layoff employees from select areas around the country. I know you're going to come back with some bullshit excuse, but this reality.
The biggest auto insurance brokerage in the company in the country!?  Really? That would be in the 00's/billions of dollars. An additional $4 million would be a few phone calls to the CPA, and a few to to the various bankers.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
The biggest auto insurance brokerage in the company in the country!?  Really? That would be in the 00's/billions of dollars. An additional $4 million would be a few phone calls to the CPA, and a few to to the various bankers.

I have no idea what the companies revenue is. Like most big businesses (as well as small) you have budgets. "a few to various bankers"? Why? to incur more debt????


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: War-Horse on November 08, 2012, 05:42:12 PM
Good gawd coach. Your still pullin stuff outta your ass like this......Your the mittny robme of getbig.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 05:44:58 PM
I have no idea what the companies revenue is. Like most big businesses (as well as small) you have budgets. "a few to various bankers"? Why? to incur more debt????
No idea, eh? See, that's been the problem here, Coach - talking about stuff with no real clue as to the details. It makes everyone look foolish.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 08, 2012, 05:49:48 PM

What I'm about to say I don't believe in, I'm just saying it because it's true and I know that it's part of the ultimate plan.  Socialism works when everyone is doing it...i.e. one world currency, one world government.  There is no debt...well for the government there isn't.

So you don't believe it, but you know that it's true? Wha.... ??? The simple, indisputable fact is this: Socialism and Communism stem from the same root and have the same end goal - they just go about achieving it in different ways; and just like Communism, Socialism just doesn't work.


Being someone who knows business, and I mean he REALLY knows business, could have turned this country around, economically fairly quick.

I call BULLSHIT. Tell us how he would achieve this "fairly quick" turnaround? What powers are inherent to the Presidenc that would allow him to do this? What specific policies could have Romney himself have instituted to that end? But remember, the President can't pass laws and he doesn't control the purse... So with that in mind, let's hear it Coach.


Like I said a long time ago, my business is small but I took the precautions to "Obama proof" myself for the future. Yesterday I actually hired a business coach to help us grow to double of what we are now within a year.

Oooh, a business coach! I'm sure that will be money well-spent... ::)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
So you don't believe it, but you know that it's true? Wha.... ??? The simple, indisputable fact is this: Socialism and Communism stem from the same root and have the same end goal - they just go about achieving it in different ways; and just like Communism, Socialism just doesn't work.


I call BULLSHIT. Tell us how he would achieve this "fairly quick" turnaround? What powers are inherent to the Presidenc that would allow him to do this? What specific policies could have Romney himself have instituted to that end? But remember, the President can't pass laws and he doesn't control the purse... So with that in mind, let's hear it Coach.


Oooh, a business coach! I'm sure that will be money well-spent... ::)

We will see.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 08, 2012, 05:57:29 PM
We will see.

You didn't answer me... what specific powers, inherent to the Presidency, could Romney have used to achieve this "fairly quick" turnaround that you know he could achieve? Come on, it should be an easy question to answer!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 06:00:28 PM
 Look even my socialist buddies think that Obama is disingenuous .. He wants the celebrity.. You get elected in america now based on what you can give those who deem themselves the "have nots"... He knew how to push those buttons .. He is a socialist at heart.. He knows that the young voters and minorities would turn out in droves.. They want something different..

 Look at the ww2 vets.. Came back and dug in and made something of themselves.. All my fathers friends were successful. Hard working.. And reeled the benefits.. People wanted to be like them ... Everyone wanted success.. It is measured different in everyone.. That mentality is gone.. Many want to bring down the "awful " rich people and level the playing field.. This will produce laziness and complacency ... It's human nature..

This election was not a referendum for Obama by any means.. He won with less of the vote than the first time.. The conservatives had their biggest showing with many independents siding with their point of view.. America is at a cross roads.. If these next 4 years are not successful the dems will have to shift more  to the middle..  But the sad part is the youth of today are so "entitled" in their opinions that I dont see much hope..

 They want what many of their grandfathers produced with none of the effort.. And if it wins votes then that's what they will give them..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 08, 2012, 06:13:24 PM
Look even my socialist buddies think that Obama is disingenuous .. He wants the celebrity.. You get elected in america now based on what you can give those who deem themselves the "have nots"... He knew how to push those buttons .. He is a socialist at heart.. He knows that the young voters and minorities would turn out in droves.. They want something different..

 Look at the ww2 vets.. Came back and dug in and made something of themselves.. All my fathers friends were successful. Hard working.. And reeled the benefits.. People wanted to be like them ... Everyone wanted success.. It is measured different in everyone.. That mentality is gone.. Many want to bring down the "awful " rich people and level the playing field.. This will produce laziness and complacency ... It's human nature..

This election was not a referendum for Obama by any means.. He won with less of the vote than the first time.. The conservatives had their biggest showing with many independents siding with their point of view.. America is at a cross roads.. If these next 4 years are not successful the dems will have to shift more  to the middle..  But the sad part is the youth of today are so "entitled" in their opinions that I dont see much hope..

 They want what many of their grandfathers produced with none of the effort.. And if it wins votes then that's what they will give them..

Totally agree.
There's lots of scum out there keen on tearing anybody down who seems to have something or seems proud. There's a rude awaking at the gates as people have quite a clouded perception of life and how to excel at it.*
Luckily the pendulum swings in both ways.

*and I don't mean this is a monetary way


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 08, 2012, 06:29:48 PM
Starting a business is just another arbitary economic trick as only 10 % of businesses make profit.

And if you're not from the right "bloodline", your idea will be ripped off if it's worth anything. Now that shit has gone global, it's only going to get worse.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: War-Horse on November 08, 2012, 06:34:39 PM
I love the My grandpa stories, but times have changed. With internet and global banking everything is at our fingertips in seconds. Back then we were putting our resources (Income) back into the USA.  Nowadays all profits go to overseas accounts or hidden tax schemes.

We are destroying ourselves by giving our money to china thru wal-mart etc.  Most people are on a budget and want the cheapest items possible.  And why is it cheaper?....labor costs mostly. How do you compete to get your product on a shelf when your labor cost is 20 an hour and theres is 10 dollars a day??

But in the end we cant help it as employees we live on less and less as the CEO takes more and more. Were forced to do the wal-mart thing and build chinas economy by sending our money there.

Whats the answer?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Wiggs on November 08, 2012, 06:39:37 PM
I love the My grandpa stories, but times have changed. With internet and global banking everything is at our fingertips in seconds. Back then we were putting our resources (Income) back into the USA.  Nowadays all profits go to overseas accounts or hidden tax schemes.

We are destroying ourselves by giving our money to china thru wal-mart etc.  Most people are on a budget and want the cheapest items possible.  And why is it cheaper?....labor costs mostly. How do you compete to get your product on a shelf when your labor cost is 20 an hour and theres is 10 dollars a day??

But in the end we cant help it as employees we live on less and less as the CEO takes more and more. Were forced to do the wal-mart thing and build chinas economy by sending our money there.

Whats the answer?

Population control and reeducation camps.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 06:39:53 PM
Look even my socialist buddies think that Obama is disingenuous .. He wants the celebrity.. You get elected in america now based on what you can give those who deem themselves the "have nots"... He knew how to push those buttons .. He is a socialist at heart.. He knows that the young voters and minorities would turn out in droves.. They want something different..

 Look at the ww2 vets.. Came back and dug in and made something of themselves.. All my fathers friends were successful. Hard working.. And reeled the benefits.. People wanted to be like them ... Everyone wanted success.. It is measured different in everyone.. That mentality is gone.. Many want to bring down the "awful " rich people and level the playing field.. This will produce laziness and complacency ... It's human nature..

This election was not a referendum for Obama by any means.. He won with less of the vote than the first time.. The conservatives had their biggest showing with many independents siding with their point of view.. America is at a cross roads.. If these next 4 years are not successful the dems will have to shift more  to the middle..  But the sad part is the youth of today are so "entitled" in their opinions that I dont see much hope..

 They want what many of their grandfathers produced with none of the effort.. And if it wins votes then that's what they will give them..
'He wants the celebrity!?' He's the farkin' President of the USA. I totally give up. People - use reason, please.   :-\


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: BILL ANVIL on November 08, 2012, 06:41:26 PM
Capitalism only works ultimately for the rich or those who get the opportunity to  step over others.

If you analyze America or China (which is today capitalist), the rich are getting richer, while the poor poorer.

The whole monteary system, credit system, banking system is at fault too. Interest is one of the greatest evils in society.

A rich person with money can make money off of money. While a poor person who even once makes a loan from that rich person may become enslaved through interest and just become poorer and poorer no matter how much they struggle.

This is the reality of north america, europe and everywhere today.

well yeah capitalism is sociopathic in nature.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 08, 2012, 06:59:05 PM
I love the My grandpa stories, but times have changed. With internet and global banking everything is at our fingertips in seconds. Back then we were putting our resources (Income) back into the USA.  Nowadays all profits go to overseas accounts or hidden tax schemes.

We are destroying ourselves by giving our money to china thru wal-mart etc.  Most people are on a budget and want the cheapest items possible.  And why is it cheaper?....labor costs mostly. How do you compete to get your product on a shelf when your labor cost is 20 an hour and theres is 10 dollars a day??

But in the end we cant help it as employees we live on less and less as the CEO takes more and more. Were forced to do the wal-mart thing and build chinas economy by sending our money there.

Whats the answer?

It's like a narrowing hallway where a ball is ricocheting from wall to wall - the less money you have the lower quality goods you buy etc. a beautiful self accelerating cycle.
Only option to avoid the meltdown - stop the cycle, all consumption of shit and only buy local goods for survival if possible and "regrow" your world.
This is hardly an option with a vast amount of primitive apes hypnotized by cheap thrills so keep your backpack ready to piss off in time to somewhere you feel safer.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: George Whorewell on November 08, 2012, 07:15:24 PM
Capitalism is bullshit.  Why?  Because in order for it to work, there must always be someone rich and always someone poor.  It's true.  That's the way the system is set up.  Then you are sold some bullshit fucking dream 99% of people will never achieve.  The only good that comes of it is new products and technologies that inevitably become consumed by the oligarchs.

Does that mean we should go full commy or socialist?  No on both.  Does that mean we should get out of the business of capitalism?  In my perfect world yes. There are many other ideas but we're so used to this bullshit monetary system (not backed by gold or silver) just money printed from thin air, loaned to banks etc... 

As long as they keep sellin' you the dream and you keep buying, the wheel keeps spinnin'. 
When we're ready to make real, actual, change as in ditching the monetary system, count me in.

 ::)

Sweet Jesus how many fucking retards like you live in the United States? Just over 50% at this point if I'm not mistaken. It's comical and frightening to witness how many delusional and misinformed people think they are "in the know" about economics and wealth creation. A word of advice: Go back to dumpster diving for maxi pads used by fat white women and stay away from internet forums where its possible that the discussion might veer toward math, money or economics.

Thanks a lot.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: George Whorewell on November 08, 2012, 07:16:55 PM
Look even my socialist buddies think that Obama is disingenuous .. He wants the celebrity.. You get elected in america now based on what you can give those who deem themselves the "have nots"... He knew how to push those buttons .. He is a socialist at heart.. He knows that the young voters and minorities would turn out in droves.. They want something different..

 Look at the ww2 vets.. Came back and dug in and made something of themselves.. All my fathers friends were successful. Hard working.. And reeled the benefits.. People wanted to be like them ... Everyone wanted success.. It is measured different in everyone.. That mentality is gone.. Many want to bring down the "awful " rich people and level the playing field.. This will produce laziness and complacency ... It's human nature..

This election was not a referendum for Obama by any means.. He won with less of the vote than the first time.. The conservatives had their biggest showing with many independents siding with their point of view.. America is at a cross roads.. If these next 4 years are not successful the dems will have to shift more  to the middle..  But the sad part is the youth of today are so "entitled" in their opinions that I dont see much hope..

 They want what many of their grandfathers produced with none of the effort.. And if it wins votes then that's what they will give them..

QFT


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: War-Horse on November 08, 2012, 07:35:34 PM
::)

Sweet Jesus how many fucking retards like you live in the United States? Just over 50% at this point if I'm not mistaken. It's comical and frightening to witness how many delusional and misinformed people think they are "in the know" about economics and wealth creation. A word of advice: Go back to dumpster diving for maxi pads used by fat white women and stay away from internet forums where its possible that the discussion might veer toward math, money or economics.

Thanks a lot.


WOW. You just said alot of Nothing.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 07:36:57 PM
Dr chimps.. Brutha ain't too hard to figure out.. He loves the prestige.. He loves going on  THE VIEW and letterman.. He loves the fund raisers with jay z.. With beyonce.. No real material interviews.. Just fluff.. For Pete sake the Pulitzer prize was given to him before he did anything.. Do you know how disrespectful that is too people that actually made a difference.. .? Some endured imprisonment .. There is a difference between being a figurehead by being president and then wanting to be "celebrity"..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: War-Horse on November 08, 2012, 07:40:18 PM
Dr chimps.. Brutha ain't too hard to figure out.. He loves the prestige.. He loves going on  THE VIEW and letterman.. He loves the fund raisers with jay z.. With beyonce.. No real material interviews.. Just fluff.. For Pete sake the Pulitzer prize was given to him before he did anything.. Do you know how disrespectful that is too people that actually made a difference.. .? Some endured imprisonment .. There is a difference between being a figurehead by being president and then wanting to be "celebrity"..


Are you saying he's just been home break-dancing?   And yet all hell was breaking loose on him as he came into office? He's amazing then.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 07:46:53 PM
Dr chimps.. Brutha ain't too hard to figure out.. He loves the prestige.. He loves going on  THE VIEW and letterman.. He loves the fund raisers with jay z.. With beyonce.. No real material interviews.. Just fluff.. For Pete sake the Pulitzer prize was given to him before he did anything.. Do you know how disrespectful that is too people that actually made a difference.. .? Some endured imprisonment .. There is a difference between being a figurehead by being president and then wanting to be "celebrity"..
Hmm. Such is the now presidency. And it was the Nobel Peace Prize he was awarded, not the Pulitzer - a prize of which he realized the premature and patronizing nature of at once  - so much so, that he donated the full monetary amount to charity. Stay in school, LATS. Read a book. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 07:48:06 PM
It is amazing.. He ws a community organizer.. Then went senate for short time.. We first heard of him in 2004.. He accomplished little before running.. So yes, with Chicago machine behind him they got themin..I am fromthere so we all know how crocked Chicago politics are.. The worst inthe nation.. Yet he is just squeaky clean ? Please.. Like McCain said " hard to run against someone who basically has no record to run against" ..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
 My bad.. Was typing to quick.. Nobel prize.. But that does not negate what I said.. He knows it's about celebrity with him.. He was embarrassed himself.. Such as his celebrity.. He loves it.. Thrives on it..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 07:53:50 PM
My bad.. Was typing to quick.. Nobel prize.. But that does not negate what I said.. He knows it's about celebrity with him.. He was embarrassed himself.. Such as his celebrity.. He loves it.. Thrives on it..
Actually, it does. When you spew bullshit you lose all aspects of righteousness. Cripes.  ::)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Marty Champions on November 08, 2012, 07:55:09 PM
The country will meet in the middle like the average of a ball bouncing off hitting opposing walls

weve had such right wing white republicans but they preached hard work

now super left wing hip hopping foot shuffling neegloids

the middle will come soon enough dont worry its the imminent average of things to come


something like

a falcon

who does a little footshuffiling posting up stupid videos  but also works very hard at his job


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 08:02:25 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

The problem is this:

If all who are able, worked and worked hard and were allowed to keep more of what they made then capitalism would work all the better.  Capitalism does not promise riches no more than life promises anything to anyone.  You cannot take from the productive and give to the lazy, elsewise the productive will become less so.

Granted, not all the "impoverished" are lazy, but the last time I checked the definition of poor does not include not being able to pay your cable, cell and internet bills.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:05:32 PM


Taking human nature into consideration.  Capitalism will never result in everyone being financially successful.
i dont think you can blame that on capitalism. but as you pointed out, the blame for that would be human nature.  


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:16:16 PM
a few points to address the last 30 or so posts in this thread..  take them for what they are worth.. if you put them together you can come to some conclusions that might help answer some of your questions..


- standard of living is higher now than in the united states than it has ever been in any country in the history of the world.

- up untill about 2000, anyone with any college degree was pretty much guaranteed a good paying career somewhere in the economy.

- with globalization, there are some domestic losers (those who cant compete with their international competitors). as such, the united states has suffered some losses in terms of ability to sustain unskilled labor over the past couple decades.

- obama is the man.   ( ;D)



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
 Drchimps.. We're adults Brutha.. No need for disparaging remarks.. My last post I said head no real record of achievement .. He'll even some liberal writers were amazed he pulled it off.. What did he achieve politically that he grout to the table besides "hope and change"..


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:24:24 PM
Drchimps.. We're adults Brutha.. No need for disparaging remarks.. My last post I said head no real record of achievement .. He'll even some liberal writers were amazed he pulled it off.. What did he achieve politically that he grout to the table besides "hope and change"..
health care reform, whether you like it or not, was an absolutely massive achievement. something presidents had been trying to do for over a century.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Hypertrophy on November 08, 2012, 08:38:42 PM
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments. As for Coach, I like the dude. And I like Dr. Chimps, even if he rags on Coach way too much.

People talk about the President like he has his shit figured out. He is no different than us. I have been in Washington quite a few times, was at several White House Business Council meetings, and met Mr. Obama, and Valerie Jarrett, and Gene Sperling and a shit load of others... They have no fucking clue what's going on in the economy. Nor do I fault them for it. Its a very complex system. Sperling held a question and answer session asking us, the business people, what to do. Oh yeah, the President has it all figured out  ::)

As for capitalism, it doesn't pick winners or losers. You play the game right, you win. And the "game" is poorly defined, even the rules. These comments about "Americans being stupid" Oh man. What grade are these people in. I know lots of stupid people, myself included. Its spans the globe. The moment you think you know it all, are elite, or have it figured out, then you have immediately branded yourself as an idiot. Ill be in Berlin in 3 weeks, at the Ministry for the Environment. I got the invite because I said straight up I cant solve the worlds problems but Id like to see if I can help. Humility is in short supply these days.

Oh and I lift weights, to keep this bodybuilding related. But I don't take steroids. Just lots of wine.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 08, 2012, 08:40:47 PM
If hunter/gatherer worked everyone would be fat by now


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 08:41:00 PM
health care reform, whether you like it or not, was an absolutely massive achievement. something presidents had been trying to do for over a century.
Totally agree. Well, 70+ years, anyway. Monster legislation.  


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: LATS on November 08, 2012, 08:43:25 PM
Tbombz we were talking about before he was elected.. His lack of achievements.. Here is a article written in Newsweek .. Hardly a liberal rag.. This writer had come to,his conclusion.. If you read all the way brought you see how right he is..  Www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/p/Matt-Patterson-post.htm


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 08:44:27 PM
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments. As for Coach, I like the dude. And I like Dr. Chimps, even if he rags on Coach way too much.

People talk about the President like he has his shit figured out. He is no different than us. I have been in Washington quite a few times, was at several White House Business Council meetings, and met Mr. Obama, and Valerie Jarrett, and Gene Sperling and a shit load of others... They have no fucking clue what's going on in the economy. Nor do I fault them for it. Its a very complex system. Sperling held a question and answer session asking us, the business people, what to do. Oh yeah, the President has it all figured out  ::)

As for capitalism, it doesn't pick winners or losers. You play the game right, you win. And the "game" is poorly defined, even the rules. These comments about "Americans being stupid" Oh man. What grade are these people in. I know lots of stupid people, myself included. Its spans the globe. The moment you think you know it all, are elite, or have it figured out, then you have immediately branded yourself as an idiot. Ill be in Berlin in 3 weeks, at the Ministry for the Environment. I got the invite because I said straight up I cant solve the worlds problems but Id like to see if I can help. Humility is in short supply these days.

Oh and I lift weights, to keep this bodybuilding related. But I don't take steroids. Just lots of wine.
Buzz off. The last thing we need is any kind of objectivity.   ::)

/jk. welcome. and add your 50 cents as you see fit.    :)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:45:32 PM
Totally agree. Well, 70+ years, anyway. Monster legislation.  
yup. teddy roosevelt wanted to get universal healthcare way back when. reform has been a long time coming.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:47:35 PM
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments. As for Coach, I like the dude. And I like Dr. Chimps, even if he rags on Coach way too much.

People talk about the President like he has his shit figured out. He is no different than us. I have been in Washington quite a few times, was at several White House Business Council meetings, and met Mr. Obama, and Valerie Jarrett, and Gene Sperling and a shit load of others... They have no fucking clue what's going on in the economy. Nor do I fault them for it. Its a very complex system. Sperling held a question and answer session asking us, the business people, what to do. Oh yeah, the President has it all figured out  ::)

As for capitalism, it doesn't pick winners or losers. You play the game right, you win. And the "game" is poorly defined, even the rules. These comments about "Americans being stupid" Oh man. What grade are these people in. I know lots of stupid people, myself included. Its spans the globe. The moment you think you know it all, are elite, or have it figured out, then you have immediately branded yourself as an idiot. Ill be in Berlin in 3 weeks, at the Ministry for the Environment. I got the invite because I said straight up I cant solve the worlds problems but Id like to see if I can help. Humility is in short supply these days.

Oh and I lift weights, to keep this bodybuilding related. But I don't take steroids. Just lots of wine.
with the potential for knowledge being infinite, we are all eternally doomed to ignorance.  8)

(socrates is a hero of mine .. "the only thing i know is that i know nothing"  8) )


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:49:10 PM
Tbombz we were talking about before he was elected.. His lack of achievements.. Here is a article written in Newsweek .. Hardly a liberal rag.. This writer had come to,his conclusion.. If you read all the way brought you see how right he is..  Www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/p/Matt-Patterson-post.htm
oh, well in that case, he was the first african american president of the harvard law review. which is pretty impressive.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 08, 2012, 08:49:43 PM
with the potential for knowledge being infinite, we are all eternally doomed to ignorance.  8)

(socrates is a hero of mine .. "the only thing i know is that i know nothing"  8) )

Prove there is an infinite potential for knowledge.  


Your "hero" would fart in your face with that garbage


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 08:50:48 PM
with the potential for knowledge being infinite, we are all eternally doomed to ignorance.  8)

(socrates is a hero of mine .. "the only thing i know is that i know nothing"  8) )
Hmm. I kinda remember telling a younger feller around here something like that a few years back.    ;D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:51:00 PM
Prove there is an infinite potential for knowledge.  


Your "hero" would fart in your face with that garbage
point taken!  ;D

somethings are just intuitive however.  :)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: doison on November 08, 2012, 08:54:44 PM
point taken!  ;D

somethings are just intuitive however.  :)

Sounds wild!

You get a deer yet?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
Sounds wild!

You get a deer yet?
what are you talking about ?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Coach is Back! on November 08, 2012, 09:01:40 PM
You didn't answer me... what specific powers, inherent to the Presidency, could Romney have used to achieve this "fairly quick" turnaround that you know he could achieve? Come on, it should be an easy question to answer!

"Powers" WTF? How about business commonsense? What do you when you have more debt than income? Cut out unnecessary expenses to free up cash flow, right? Of course you do. You don't borrow at a higher premium to pay existing loans. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 09:18:36 PM
"Powers" WTF? How about business commonsense? What do you when you have more debt than income? Cut out unnecessary expenses to free up cash flow, right? Of course you do. You don't borrow at a higher premium to pay existing loans. 
Stop talking. All we see is a wall of lies. Thanks.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 09:27:31 PM
"Powers" WTF? How about business commonsense? What do you when you have more debt than income? Cut out unnecessary expenses to free up cash flow, right? Of course you do. You don't borrow at a higher premium to pay existing loans. 

Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.  Not all of them, but far too many of them I can assure you.  It is odd that many of those that would belittle people with faith in God cry foul craven when conservatives make light of their "faith" in the idiocy of a presidency bent upon giving them what they refuse to earn, by getting even with those who prosper from their own labors. 

Liberal idiocy and the evil born of it demands a scapegoat.  The Nazis had Jews and Liberals have successful people (save liberal actors/actresses/politicians and the like, mind you).

They do not desire hope, they desire to "get even" with those that work for a living.  If any of these people actually work for a living (and I know there are more than a few), then I hope (there's their "faith word", HOPE) they are taxed to the marrow and suffer ten fold because of their choice in "leadership".


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 08, 2012, 09:32:19 PM
With all the Billionaires in the world, it doesn't make sense that a so called super intelligent business mind like Romney isn't one. In fact, he isn't even close. Don't get me wrong, 250 million is impressive, but for as long as he's been trying to add to his portfolio, why is he not a billionaire? If we think Romney would make a good President because of his business sense, why not just throw Jay Z or P.Diddy the title. Both of those guys are worth double what Romney's worth and have been at it(making large sums of money) almost half the time.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 09:37:22 PM
With all the Billionaires in the world, it doesn't make sense that a so called super intelligent business mind like Romney isn't one. In fact, he isn't even close. Don't get me wrong, 250 million is impressive, but for as long as he's been trying to add to his portfolio, why is he not a billionaire? If we think Romney would make a good President because of his business sense, why not just throw Jay Z or P.Diddy the title. Both of those guys are worth double what Romney's worth and have been at it(making large sums of money) almost half the time.

Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 09:45:10 PM
Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so. 
i dont think your answer is valid because you make the accusation that obama wants to damage the economy. his policies might be bad for the economy, but i seriously doubt its his intention.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: dr.chimps on November 08, 2012, 09:46:01 PM
Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.  Not all of them, but far too many of them I can assure you.  It is odd that many of those that would belittle people with faith in God cry foul craven when conservatives make light of their "faith" in the idiocy of a presidency bent upon giving them what they refuse to earn, by getting even with those who prosper from their own labors.  

Liberal idiocy and the evil born of it demands a scapegoat.  The Nazis had Jews and Liberals have successful people (save liberal actors/actresses/politicians and the like, mind you).

They do not desire hope, they desire to "get even" with those that work for a living.  If any of these people actually work for a living (and I know there are more than a few), then I hope (there's their "faith word", HOPE) they are taxed to the marrow and suffer ten fold because of their choice in "leadership".
C-

/'Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.'  nice. almost un-robotic-like.  


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 09:53:53 PM
C-

/'Your words may well be lost on liberals, my friend.'  nice. almost un-robotic-like.  

Thanks!  Only a fool thinks ill of everyone that differs from them in one way or another.   Neither of us are fools, my friend.   ;D

This holds true for the majority of people here. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 08, 2012, 09:57:37 PM
Making hippity hoppity "music" is nothing to admire unless you are culturally inclined to be so or in that business.  Granted, all of Romney's business endevors may not pass your personal litmus test (whatever that may be, sir!), but still he is better qualified to get us out of the muck and mire than is the fellow who is bent upon turning the business landscape into the La Brea Tar Pits.

You question was valid and my answer is equally so.  


Interesting article asking the same question I asked. Doesn't make sense that Romney isn't a Billionaire many, many times over.

 

 

 
Mitt Romney is worth $250 million. Why so little?
    
By William D. Cohan, Published: October 5

Mitt Romney is indisputably a very rich man. And if he is elected president on Nov. 6, he will become one of the wealthiest people ever to hold the office.

But exactly how wealthy is Romney? The figure that gets tossed around is $250 million in net worth — meaning the total value of his assets, financial and others, minus any debts.

Mitt Romney's $250 million net worth is much smaller than that of the other big players in the private-equity and leveraged buyout business, as listed in the latest Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America.

It’s a big number, but frankly, it seems low. Given the industry in which he made his fortune (private equity), the era when he made it (the 1980s and 1990s) and the wealth of his peers in that business (mostly billionaires), Romney should be worth a good bit more than that.

Why isn’t he?

No surprise, Romney has not made it easy to figure out the precise size of his fortune, and any inferences drawn from the available data are necessarily speculative — yet they still, I think, say something about the man who would be president.

We know that Romney’s fortune derives in large part from his founding in 1984 of Bain Capital, one of the premier private-equity firms in the world, which he ran for the next 15 years or so, during a boom time for the industry. Among Bain’s most successful investments are those in well-known companies such as Staples, Domino’s Pizza, Dunkin’ Donuts and the Weather Channel. Others include lesser-known enterprises such as Experian, an information-services company that Bain bought (with Thomas H. Lee Company, another Boston-based buyout firm) for $1 billion in 1996 and sold months laterfor a profit of $700 million; and Seat Pagine Gialle, an Italian yellow-pages business whose investors, including Bain, made $1 billion in profits after two years.

We also know that Bain was supposedly so successful under Romney’s leadership that the firm was able to charge its investors fees 50 percent higher than those of its competitors. Instead of the typical industry fee of 2 percent of the cash under management and 20 percent of the profits on individual deals, Romney extracted from investors a 3 percent fee and 30 percent of profits for the privilege of investing in Bain’s deals. Sophisticated investors — pension funds, university endowments and large foundations — that put money in private equity don’t do this kind of thing willingly. They did it at Bain because they believed it was worth the price to get into the deals.

And finally, we know that the other people who founded private-equity firms around the same time that Romney and his partners started Bain, and who had to make do with a lower fee structure, are far richer than Romney. These men — Henry Kravis and his cousin George Roberts, the founders of KKR & Co.; the late Teddy Forstmann, the founder of Forstmann Little; David Bonderman and Jim Coulter, the founders of TPG Capital; Leon Black, the founder of Apollo Global Management; Steve Schwarzman and Pete Peterson, the founders of the Blackstone Group; David Rubenstein, the founder of the Carlyle Group; and Jonathan Nelson, the founder of Providence Equity Partners — each have a net worth measured in the billions. Schwarzman, with a fortune greater than $5 billion, is the wealthiest buyout mogul, according to the latest Forbes 400 list.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 09:59:46 PM
i dont think your answer is valid because you make the accusation that obama wants to damage the economy. his policies might be bad for the economy, but i seriously doubt its his intention.

And you claim and above average IQ?  His intent is clear enough save for those wearing neither rose colored glasses nor blinders.   You have only to look at Greece or other European countries to know that which he seeks for the US is going to do a great deal of harm.  The "Great Society" is a failure because the "safety net" was in reality, a trawling net designed to trap and hold people for the sake of a vote.  

So far it has enslaved generations.  


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 08, 2012, 10:06:06 PM

Interesting article asking the same question I asked. Doesn't make sense that Romney isn't a Billionaire many, many times over.

 

 

 
Mitt Romney is worth $250 million. Why so little?
    
By William D. Cohan, Published: October 5

Mitt Romney is indisputably a very rich man. And if he is elected president on Nov. 6, he will become one of the wealthiest people ever to hold the office.

But exactly how wealthy is Romney? The figure that gets tossed around is $250 million in net worth — meaning the total value of his assets, financial and others, minus any debts.

Mitt Romney's $250 million net worth is much smaller than that of the other big players in the private-equity and leveraged buyout business, as listed in the latest Forbes 400 list of the richest people in America.

It’s a big number, but frankly, it seems low. Given the industry in which he made his fortune (private equity), the era when he made it (the 1980s and 1990s) and the wealth of his peers in that business (mostly billionaires), Romney should be worth a good bit more than that.

Why isn’t he?

No surprise, Romney has not made it easy to figure out the precise size of his fortune, and any inferences drawn from the available data are necessarily speculative — yet they still, I think, say something about the man who would be president.

We know that Romney’s fortune derives in large part from his founding in 1984 of Bain Capital, one of the premier private-equity firms in the world, which he ran for the next 15 years or so, during a boom time for the industry. Among Bain’s most successful investments are those in well-known companies such as Staples, Domino’s Pizza, Dunkin’ Donuts and the Weather Channel. Others include lesser-known enterprises such as Experian, an information-services company that Bain bought (with Thomas H. Lee Company, another Boston-based buyout firm) for $1 billion in 1996 and sold months laterfor a profit of $700 million; and Seat Pagine Gialle, an Italian yellow-pages business whose investors, including Bain, made $1 billion in profits after two years.

We also know that Bain was supposedly so successful under Romney’s leadership that the firm was able to charge its investors fees 50 percent higher than those of its competitors. Instead of the typical industry fee of 2 percent of the cash under management and 20 percent of the profits on individual deals, Romney extracted from investors a 3 percent fee and 30 percent of profits for the privilege of investing in Bain’s deals. Sophisticated investors — pension funds, university endowments and large foundations — that put money in private equity don’t do this kind of thing willingly. They did it at Bain because they believed it was worth the price to get into the deals.

And finally, we know that the other people who founded private-equity firms around the same time that Romney and his partners started Bain, and who had to make do with a lower fee structure, are far richer than Romney. These men — Henry Kravis and his cousin George Roberts, the founders of KKR & Co.; the late Teddy Forstmann, the founder of Forstmann Little; David Bonderman and Jim Coulter, the founders of TPG Capital; Leon Black, the founder of Apollo Global Management; Steve Schwarzman and Pete Peterson, the founders of the Blackstone Group; David Rubenstein, the founder of the Carlyle Group; and Jonathan Nelson, the founder of Providence Equity Partners — each have a net worth measured in the billions. Schwarzman, with a fortune greater than $5 billion, is the wealthiest buyout mogul, according to the latest Forbes 400 list.



Good points, all.  But, he is well off enough, is he not?  It is doubtless that were he even wealthier that wealth would label him even more a pariah in the eyes of those who despise him for his wealth but want it for themselves.

He seems a man of good morals, with good family oriented values and a fine business sense.  Again, more wealth would only "burden" him further in the jealous hearts of those already set against him and others who succeed.    It is what it is.  The truth.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: honest on November 08, 2012, 10:12:35 PM
Health care reform and increased welfare requirements in an economy where there are less tax dollars taking into account the level of government current debt he inherited was economic suicide.
He doubles triples the debt in four years, then gets re elected, in a popularity contest, unbelievable.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 08, 2012, 10:15:43 PM
"Powers" WTF? How about business commonsense? What do you when you have more debt than income? Cut out unnecessary expenses to free up cash flow, right? Of course you do. You don't borrow at a higher premium to pay existing loans. 

You said that as President Romney could turn around the economy fast. HOW? What could Romney do, as President, that would achieve this.

What you say about cash flow is irrelevant since the Congress decides both the income and the expenses of the United States. The President does not. Sure he submits a budget, but it's Congress that has the final say. And with Congress split, and the Republicans controlling the House and the Democrats controlling the Senate, it's unlikely that any consensus would be reached in Congress.

You said that President Romney could turn this economy around fairly quickly. These are your words - you said them - so clearly you believe that, as President, he would have some powers inherent in the Presidency that would allow him to leverage his business experience to achieve this quick turn around. What are those powers? Please list them, specifically.

Inquiring minds want to know Coach...


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 08, 2012, 10:35:50 PM
Good points, all.  But, he is well off enough, is he not?  It is doubtless that were he even wealthier that wealth would label him even more a pariah in the eyes of those who despise him for his wealth but want it for themselves.

He seems a man of good morals, with good family oriented values and a fine business sense.  Again, more wealth would only "burden" him further in the jealous hearts of those already set against him and others who succeed.    It is what it is.  The truth.



Unless of course he was a billionaire or close to one on paper at one point and lost a lot of it through very bad investments. What if his old man left him 500 million and Mitt lost half of it? Not saying that happened but something don't add up that Mitt isn't a Billionaire imop.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 08, 2012, 10:49:34 PM
And you claim and above average IQ?  His intent is clear enough save for those wearing neither rose colored glasses nor blinders.   You have only to look at Greece or other European countries to know that which he seeks for the US is going to do a great deal of harm.  The "Great Society" is a failure because the "safety net" was in reality, a trawling net designed to trap and hold people for the sake of a vote.  

So far it has enslaved generations.  

if i accept all of your precepts as valid, your still only able to prove that his policies are bad for the economy and that he supports them because they help to get him elected. the idea that his intention is to damage the economy isnt a valid conclusion.

the reality is that some of obama's policies are a drag on the economy. requiring employers offer healthcare for example. and dodd frank makes it very tough to qualify for a loan as i understand it. but he is good intentioned - he wants to increase health care coverage, he wants to keep wall street in check to prevent predatory and risky behavior that puts consumers wealth on the line.  and other policies like making it easier and cheaper to get a student loan and investing in infrastructure and clean energy are good for the economy.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: kawaks on November 08, 2012, 11:28:22 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.
get the idea?
everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?
its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.
the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.
so, where is the problem?

RISK vs REWARD is the problem

We've seen a 400 point drop in the dow in the last 2 days post the Obama rally.

The EURO is UP at the moment, Dow futures UP 48 points so we should see a good turn around FRI open on Wall Street

CFD 5 contracts, LONG *now*

And let's see what happens ;-0


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: George Whorewell on November 09, 2012, 05:15:46 AM

WOW. You just said alot of Nothing.

I was responding to a lot of nothing. And you just replied to my nothing.

It must have been something.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: arce1988 on November 09, 2012, 12:00:39 PM
  Great post


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Ropo on November 09, 2012, 12:18:30 PM
Marxist rant  ::)

But still absolute truth about the matter.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Nails on November 09, 2012, 12:37:39 PM
 :P


(http://fortheloveofcookies.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/melyssa_ford.jpg?w=266&h=400)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Kulutues on November 09, 2012, 12:52:51 PM
Every civilization either lost to war or was destroyed from within like the US is nowadays, more takers than givers.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: james87 on November 09, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
this is actually a fully solid thread.

lol at the ppl who think romeny wouldve been a good president bc hes wealthy.

thats so wrong , in so many aspects, i dont know where to start pointing out the flaws on that thought.

healthcare a bad act bc financial reasons?

ah i see, finances before health, eh?

Finances before health, what are you talking about? A country cant keep spending money they don't have, they cant keep borrowing and printing money to finance health and welfare, it has to come from somewhere. Taxing big business more and more wont help, it never has. History has shown this over and over yet what is it about governments that are so determined to tax more and spend more, borrow more and print more-insanity.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Scott on November 09, 2012, 09:18:56 PM
this is actually a fully solid thread.

lol at the ppl who think romeny wouldve been a good president bc hes wealthy.

thats so wrong , in so many aspects, i dont know where to start pointing out the flaws on that thought.

healthcare a bad act bc financial reasons?

ah i see, finances before health, eh?

Taking care of  yourself is more important than taking advantage of others hard work.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Roger Bacon on November 09, 2012, 09:20:53 PM
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments. As for Coach, I like the dude. And I like Dr. Chimps, even if he rags on Coach way too much.

People talk about the President like he has his shit figured out. He is no different than us. I have been in Washington quite a few times, was at several White House Business Council meetings, and met Mr. Obama, and Valerie Jarrett, and Gene Sperling and a shit load of others... They have no fucking clue what's going on in the economy. Nor do I fault them for it. Its a very complex system. Sperling held a question and answer session asking us, the business people, what to do. Oh yeah, the President has it all figured out  ::)

As for capitalism, it doesn't pick winners or losers. You play the game right, you win. And the "game" is poorly defined, even the rules. These comments about "Americans being stupid" Oh man. What grade are these people in. I know lots of stupid people, myself included. Its spans the globe. The moment you think you know it all, are elite, or have it figured out, then you have immediately branded yourself as an idiot. Ill be in Berlin in 3 weeks, at the Ministry for the Environment. I got the invite because I said straight up I cant solve the worlds problems but Id like to see if I can help. Humility is in short supply these days.

Oh and I lift weights, to keep this bodybuilding related. But I don't take steroids. Just lots of wine.

Good man, keep it up!  8)


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 09, 2012, 10:16:59 PM
Finances before health, what are you talking about? A country cant keep spending money they don't have, they cant keep borrowing and printing money to finance health and welfare, it has to come from somewhere. Taxing big business more and more wont help, it never has. History has shown this over and over yet what is it about governments that are so determined to tax more and spend more, borrow more and print more-insanity.
i sympathize with your point of view..   let me try to put things in perspective..  "finances before health" because the argument against obamacare is that the requirements for employers to offer healthcare is a drag on the economy..     taxing big business does create revenue that can be spent on health and welfare, and although taxes are never good for an economy there certainly isnt a historical track record to prove it.. tax rates were much higher on big business in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's and we had great economic success over tha course of time..   


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: honest on November 10, 2012, 06:44:21 AM
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

Heres an insight to your future, truth be told the horse has already bolted,no matter who won your popularity contest.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: james87 on November 10, 2012, 03:25:42 PM
i sympathize with your point of view..   let me try to put things in perspective..  "finances before health" because the argument against obamacare is that the requirements for employers to offer healthcare is a drag on the economy..     taxing big business does create revenue that can be spent on health and welfare, and although taxes are never good for an economy there certainly isnt a historical track record to prove it.. tax rates were much higher on big business in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's and we had great economic success over tha course of time..   
No, i don't think that's entirely true. Tax REVENUE has been higher in some of the periods you mentioned (not all) but EFFECTIVE marginal tax rates were not. The aftermath of lowering effective tax rates and personal income tax rates has, in history, resulted in a higher total tax revenue and budget surplus and a reduction in debt. Look, tax is necessary no doubt about it, however which ever way you want to spin it, imposing a tax for centralised health care on big business is just a tax on the employee, at the end of the day. From an employee benefits expense point of view, a business is going to pay X amount of dollars as a total remuneration package, it doesn't care how the total amount is split. Now me, i would rather have that extra money myself to decide what private health insurance is best going to suit me and what type of cover i need for my circumstances.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Slapper on November 10, 2012, 03:40:09 PM
I'm a little late to the party but I gotta throw in my two cents.

Get this: the main economic activity "undercurrent" exists whether you live under a capitalist or socialist regime/government.

When it comes to wages, again, regardless of government type: you put your time in in school and do something valuable that not many fuckers are doing and you will be rewarded wage-wise. Examples? Brain surgeon, nuclear physicists, et cetera. This is the cream of the crop. It's no secret, if you want their salaries you have to go to school and study like them. The problem is that 95% of the people do not want to put in the effort and become part of the 95% pool of pseudo-schooled individuals that get bitched every which way. Eventually they, the majority, become bitter at the system, whether it's a democracy or an authoritarian regime, and develop this sense of entitlement that socialist know how to exploit so well.

Needless to say Da Secret is really no secret: in order to be wealthy you have to make that which people want and not many fuckers make.

It's simple.

What I really despise is individuals who think democracy is going to make them rich.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: arce1988 on November 10, 2012, 03:43:12 PM
  Mitt is probably worth double that


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Slapper on November 10, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
People will always want the highest salary while working as little as possible.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: GigantorX on November 10, 2012, 10:33:35 PM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Uh, "The West" doesn't practice capitalism. No nation really does.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 10, 2012, 11:05:58 PM
this is actually a fully solid thread.

lol at the ppl who think romeny wouldve been a good president bc hes wealthy.

thats so wrong , in so many aspects, i dont know where to start pointing out the flaws on that thought.

healthcare a bad act bc financial reasons?

ah i see, finances before health, eh?

It's not finances before health. It's "the system you are trying to impose isn't going to work; it will bankrupt the country and then not only will you not have healthcare, you won't have a country either."


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: quadzilla456 on November 10, 2012, 11:12:35 PM
Whoever said everyone would be rich in a capitalist society??? That was never on the table.

What you can expect in a capitalist society is a functioning, maintained infrastructure.

What you can expect in a socialist society is less innovation and a crumbling infrastructure. Everyone will be equally poor. Look at Detroit / Flint if you want a vision.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Bad Boy Dazza on November 10, 2012, 11:14:44 PM
Whoever said everyone would be rich in a capitalist society??? That was never on the table.

Exactly.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 10, 2012, 11:19:53 PM
Lol @ James sayimh tax rates weren't higher during those periods I listed


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: james87 on November 11, 2012, 12:13:06 AM
Lol @ James sayimh tax rates weren't higher during those periods I listed

You really have no concept of the difference between the standard tax rate and an effective marginal tax rate do you? you are a moron


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: quadzilla456 on November 11, 2012, 12:13:35 AM
Universal healthcare only works on a small scale in countries like Switzerland. That system will not work in the USA long term. You can expect your quality of service to decline massively.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 12:14:29 AM
Universal healthcare only works on a small scale in countries like Switzerland. That system will not work in the USA long term. You can expect your quality of service to decline massively.

It works in Canada in spite of the urban legends I'm sure your going to counter with.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 11, 2012, 12:18:07 AM
Ok James explain to me how tax rates were lower in the 50s than they are now


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: quadzilla456 on November 11, 2012, 12:26:20 AM
It works in Canada in spite of the urban legends I'm sure your going to counter with.
I have relatives in Canada and they complain about how fucked up Canada is all the time.

The Chinese already practically own Vancouver.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: james87 on November 11, 2012, 01:11:34 AM
Ok James explain to me how tax rates were lower in the 50s than they are now
i wont bother to re-read my post but if i said tax RATES were lower in the 50's then they are now, i take it back. Tax RATES have been up and down over the last 50-60 years so i wont get into an argument about which period had the lowest rate, i am sure it would be easy to google that one and find out if you wanted. The point i am trying to make is you need to look at the revenue collected from tax (which would be a lot harder to get true figures) - that's what matters. the tax rates, even the effective tax rates don't give a true reflection. Higher tax rates don't result in more tax revenue, not in the long run. go back even further, in 1929 the highest tax rate was 25%, the number of people who reported high incomes in that period was 10 times higher (adjusted for cpi and population) then there was in the 70's, when the highest marginal rate was significantly higher - and you surely cant make the argument that income distribution had improved that much. When tax rates are higher than the costs of tax minimization strategies, tax shelters, deciding to spend a certain way over another etc, there will likely be less revenue from taxation, yet you impose an unnecessary burden on business.  But you know what, i'm an accountant so i should be on your side - the only people that win when taxes go beyond a certain point and become more complex are the accountants.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 11, 2012, 01:18:40 AM
You make good points but at the same time you make it sound like taxation is inversely corelated with revenue which isn't the case. There is sweet spot wher lower rates get less revenue and higher rates get less revenue. Also there's many factors that can shift the level of wher the sweet spot is located and how big of a range it has


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Ropo on November 11, 2012, 01:43:08 AM
Universal healthcare only works on a small scale in countries like Switzerland. That system will not work in the USA long term. You can expect your quality of service to decline massively.

And little countries like Germany, France, GB and every fucking civilization on earth, except USA. And it work fine, and people live healthier and longer life than USA. And they alswo have better start for their life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/coronary-heart-disease/by-country/

There is nothing good in your health care, not one thing better than even in the third world countries, it only makes more money for owners of the system. There isn't another country where the health care is such a big business, it is the service which is given to the people equally no matter who you are. Why it should be business? How much is your share from that business, how much you earn from it? Nothing, you are wrong side of the wall, with all the people who just pay for it and who doesn't get back nothing worth that money they pay. In other countries we pay it by the taxes, which are less or similar than USA. Just like you guys pay for schools, fire department etc. Some of the countries you doesn't have to pay even for the medicines, it is included in the health care. What's so wrong about that?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 11, 2012, 01:59:17 AM
It works in Canada in spite of the urban legends I'm sure your going to counter with.

Only way I'll go to a hospital here in Canada is if I get shot or stabbed.....even than I'd rather go to a vet. I've sat waiting in emergency for ridiculous amounts of time for simple shit like a few stitches and can't seem to find a family doctor accepting new clients. I don't even want a gp cause my previous one was a useless chink but sometimes you need them to sign shit and stuff like that.

Oh and never mind the waiting periods for appointments to see specialists...

I've had better health services in a third world country in latin america.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 11, 2012, 03:02:03 AM
it works in many other nations.

I guess that would depend on what you mean by "works". Is it your assertion that a program where government pays for all healthcare needs is economically viable?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: james87 on November 11, 2012, 05:24:06 AM
difficult question, depends on views of the world.

here, it works.and im in favour of it.

my dad had heart surgery, cost some 100k usd, was covered.

yes, everybody pays mandatory insurance and the costs are rising, but im still in favour of it.

btw, a govt never pays for anything, its always the taxpayers in one way or another, govt just collects the funds and redistributes where needed(and often, where its not needed).

should we let the elderly and sick just die off if they cant afford therapy?

The problem with your argument is that you assume there is no alternative, that we need big brother (the government) to take a high percentage of what we earn and then decide how it should be spent for us. Why cant these services exist without government providing them? We have insurance for our houses, our cars, life insurance, the list goes on. I have private health insurance, i have income protection insurance and i have a superannuation fund that i make contributions to which will help provide me an income in my retirement. If i were taxed less, i would be able to allocate my higher net income to all of these areas where i get to decide exactly which of each suits my needs best. The fact is, no one is more careful at spending your own money then you are. The most careless allocation of funds, is when you are spending someone else money, on someone else-which is essentially what the government does. Don't get me wrong, we need taxes and we need government, just not to the extent some people believe. I would hate to think how much of my tax money gets wasted just on administrative nonsense that goes along with all of these "services"


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: _bruce_ on November 11, 2012, 05:37:41 AM
difficult question, depends on views of the world.

here, it works.and im in favour of it.

my dad had heart surgery, cost some 100k usd, was covered.

yes, everybody pays mandatory insurance and the costs are rising, but im still in favour of it.

btw, a govt never pays for anything, its always the taxpayers in one way or another, govt just collects the funds and redistributes where needed(and often, where its not needed).

should we let the elderly and sick just die off if they cant afford therapy?

No, they've founded the base on which we're living. Unlike when I was a young punk I have a lot of compassion for the oldies - many to whom I've talked to are pretty strong willed and clever.
But the trend is a pro active death policy for the elderly spearheaded by Britain since the aging population is "costing" too much.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Immortal_Technique on November 11, 2012, 05:43:19 AM
People who work hard and save do have money put aside.   So it does work for them.  Do you have a job?  What do you do?

Third world?  WTF?  These people follow a different set of rules.

I.e. We're happy for slave labour to exist if it means cheap clothes and wallets for us, and we don't have to see it.

Capitalism is global/expansionist etc, 3rd world is the same set of rules, we just see the pretty side of it.

Capitalism = richest 12% having 90% of the wealth = flawed system.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 07:12:02 AM
Only way I'll go to a hospital here in Canada is if I get shot or stabbed.....even than I'd rather go to a vet. I've sat waiting in emergency for ridiculous amounts of time for simple shit like a few stitches and can't seem to find a family doctor accepting new clients. I don't even want a gp cause my previous one was a useless chink but sometimes you need them to sign shit and stuff like that.

Oh and never mind the waiting periods for appointments to see specialists...

I've had better health services in a third world country in latin america.
I love how your post got totally ignored.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: quadzilla456 on November 11, 2012, 08:57:07 AM
difficult question, depends on views of the world.

here, it works.and im in favour of it.

my dad had heart surgery, cost some 100k usd, was covered.

yes, everybody pays mandatory insurance and the costs are rising, but im still in favour of it.

btw, a govt never pays for anything, its always the taxpayers in one way or another, govt just collects the funds and redistributes where needed(and often, where its not needed).

should we let the elderly and sick just die off if they cant afford therapy?
It only works in a small, wealthy country like Switzerland. That system cannot work in a country of 300 million plus. While it is noble to try and save everyone including the poor the laws of nature does not respect it. Many humans think they are divorced from nature and they are not. In nature the weak die off. If you are physically weak but have money then you are not "weak". If you are physically weak and have no money you are "weak".

I've seen with my own eyes lions devour an antelope that was hours old, right after birth. That's how nature operates - cruel and efficient.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Lord Humungous on November 11, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Hey dickwad, maybe you should understand Capitolism before you make a jerk of yourself?? Maybe you ment Catabolism??


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on November 11, 2012, 10:01:53 AM
Eat a vegan type diet long enough and you won't even need a doctor/hospital unless an emergency until your 70's and 80's anyway. And when you're that age, who cares?


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 11, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfe-1DScxw


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 11:15:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfe-1DScxw
I love how you manage to interject your fucked up religion into every thread.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 11, 2012, 11:19:44 AM
I'm sorry that you hate Islam, but few pages back I spoke about capitalism, communism, socialism and Islam as a middle way between the two. Likewise I spoke about the western monetary system, interest and banking systems. I also spoke of the alternative standard which is of Islam, a monetary system based on real valuables and resources, not imaginary numbers, free of interest, credit and debt style western banking.

It is a legit viable alternative that works and as mentioned already Islamic based investments and banks were spared of the 'crash' of 2008, and in fact profitted still, while those that were interest based were screwed, one such example of is UAE which led by a western model and thus got screwed as well.

The western greed based model of capitalism based on imaginary numbers, money out of money, etc... is bound to fail and cannot last forever. IT just makes the rich richer and poor poorer.

In case you didn't know, your government is 17 trillion dollars in debt. Due to? War mongering internationally, stealing, interest, debt, the whole garbage system is bound to fail the 'debt ceilling' just keeps going up and you 'succeed' by stealing from other and ruining others making it seem america is the 'best place to live' when in fact its an illusion.

It's a system bred on consumerism. You thriwse as long as people slave away working and are hungry and greedy for buying stupid useless things.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 11:20:54 AM
I'm sorry that you hate Islam, but few pages back I spoke about capitalism, communism, socialism and Islam as a middle way between the two. Likewise I spoke about the western monetary system, interest and banking systems. I also spoke of the alternative standard which is of Islam, a monetary system based on real valuables and resources, not imaginary numbers, free of interest, credit and debt style western banking.

It is a legit viable alternative that works and as mentioned already Islamic based investments and banks were spared of the 'crash' of 2008, and in fact profitted still, while those that were interest based were screwed, one such example of is UAE which led by a western model and thus got screwed as well.

The western greed based model of capitalism based on imaginary numbers, money out of money, etc... is bound to fail and cannot last forever. IT just makes the rich richer and poor poorer.

In case you didn't know, your government is 17 trillion dollars in debt. Due to? War mongering internationally, stealing, interest, debt, the whole garbage system is bound to fail the 'debt ceilling' just keeps going up and you 'succeed' by stealing from other and ruining others making it seem america is the 'best place to live' when in fact its an illusion.
TL:DR:GFY


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: a_ahmed on November 11, 2012, 11:21:31 AM
TL:DR:GFY

Yeah good for you and your brain has the capacity of a speck of sand.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 11:24:09 AM
Yeah good for you and your brain has the capacity of a speck of sand.
TL:DR:GFY


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 11, 2012, 12:58:32 PM
I love how your post got totally ignored.

I was totally gonna ignore this post but you deserve better than that  :D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 11, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
difficult question, depends on views of the world.

here, it works.and im in favour of it.

Why is it a difficult question? Either you can tell us what "works" means in this context or you can't.


my dad had heart surgery, cost some 100k usd, was covered.

And this proves what, exactly? It's certainly not proof that it works. Bernie Madoff frequently paid investors large returns too; doesn't prove his scheme worked.

Nobody argues that a system where all health insurance is provided by the government is impossible. It is simply ill-advised because such a system is not economically viable in the long term.


yes, everybody pays mandatory insurance and the costs are rising, but im still in favour of it.

But why are you still in favor of it? In other words, if rising costs and the fact that you are forced to do something (perhaps even against your better judgement) aren't good enough reasons to say "something is wrong here" what will it take to make you not support it? I'm only guessing but I suspect the answer is "nothing will make me not support it."


btw, a govt never pays for anything, its always the taxpayers in one way or another, govt just collects the funds and redistributes where needed(and often, where its not needed).

Taxes paid to the government become the government's income and the government can do with it's income as it pleases. But that's irrelevant: whether the government pays or merely acts as a broker doesn't change anything.

But I disagree with something else you said: that the government's job is to redistribute funds/wealth where it's needed. Perhaps that's the case where you live, but the functions of the United States government are tightly proscribed and "redistribution" isn't on the list of proscribed activities.


should we let the elderly and sick just die off if they cant afford therapy?

*bzzt* logical fallacy detected: FALSE DICHOTOMY. The choice isn't only between "government healthcare" and "let the sick and poor die" regardless of how much you'd like to believe that.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 01:29:22 PM
I was totally gonna ignore this post but you deserve better than that  :D
Lol, a few people were talking about how great Canada's health care system was, and everything bad you here is just shit talk... And then you posted that, and none of your fellow Canadians acknowledged it.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 11, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
Lol, a few people were talking about how great Canada's health care system was, and everything bad you here is just shit talk... And then you posted that, and none of your fellow Canadians acknowledged it.

I haven't looked through the thread at all but thanks for filling me in.

Maybe it's different in other provinces but here in Ontario it hasn't been a good experience for me wrt this country's health care system. I'm currently in the largest city in Canada but even when I lived in a city with a much smaller population it was still pretty bad. I wonder what my tax dollars are doing?

Seems like in Canada we punish the hard working people and reward the lazy that don't wanna do anything with their lives. Yeah, its great here if you're looking for a safe and peaceful country to live in where we won't let you starve to death but if you wanna get ahead you're better off elsewhere.

We don't have high murder rates or ghettos other than the reserves where the natives live and even the worst neighbouhoods in Toronto are a cake walk compared to those in the U.S. In the developed world there is no excuse for anyone to remain a financial burden for the rest of the hard working people.

 

 

 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 04:51:31 PM
Only way I'll go to a hospital here in Canada is if I get shot or stabbed.....even than I'd rather go to a vet. I've sat waiting in emergency for ridiculous amounts of time for simple shit like a few stitches and can't seem to find a family doctor accepting new clients. I don't even want a gp cause my previous one was a useless chink but sometimes you need them to sign shit and stuff like that.

Oh and never mind the waiting periods for appointments to see specialists...

I've had better health services in a third world country in latin america.

I'll call bullshit.  Number one, a few stitches isn't an emergency and you probably didn't need to be in the ER.  You certainly shouldn't be seen before heart patients, stroke patients and any other patient who has potentially life threatening illnesses.  My uncle and cousins live in Toronto.  My uncle tore his ACL and was operated on the next day.  My two cousins also had training related injuries one I believe was a torn bicep and both were fixed in less than a week.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Grape Ape on November 11, 2012, 04:56:18 PM
Lol, a few people were talking about how great Canada's health care system was, and everything bad you here is just shit talk... And then you posted that, and none of your fellow Canadians acknowledged it.

Yeah, I've posted about that before too, and get crickets.  Both systems are far from perfect, and have their own faults.  It's just that certain posters never miss an opporntunity to tells what a shithole we live in, no matter what.  It limits credibility, not that credibiily actually means anything on a message board.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 11, 2012, 05:28:16 PM
I'll call bullshit.  Number one, a few stitches isn't an emergency and you probably didn't need to be in the ER.  You certainly shouldn't be seen before heart patients, stroke patients and any other patient who has potentially life threatening illnesses.  My uncle and cousins live in Toronto.  My uncle tore his ACL and was operated on the next day.  My two cousins also had training related injuries one I believe was a torn bicep and both were fixed in less than a week.

Trust me I did NOT wanna be in there but had no where else to go. If I could've kept the wound from bleeding I wouldn't have sat in the emergency room for over 12 hours dick head.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Irongrip400 on November 11, 2012, 05:39:25 PM
Who's gonna pay the doctors their high salaries?  If the government steps in, I'm sure they would regulate what could be charged for certain procedures. Doctors come out of school with immense debt, which needs to be paid for by them conducting business. I think it's okay like it is, and if the govt wants to start its own version that is for the poor/uninsured, let them do it. I'm sure it would be great, just like standing in line at the DMV.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 06:21:56 PM
Trust me I did NOT wanna be in there but had no where else to go. If I could've kept the wound from bleeding I wouldn't have sat in the emergency room for over 12 hours dick head.

Your obviously a PUSSY.  That's number one.  Number two, you offered nothing to my central point regarding Canadian family members who've gotten great service from the Canadian Health System.  Keep trying BITCH!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 06:23:06 PM
Who's gonna pay the doctors their high salaries?  If the government steps in, I'm sure they would regulate what could be charged for certain procedures. Doctors come out of school with immense debt, which needs to be paid for by them conducting business. I think it's okay like it is, and if the govt wants to start its own version that is for the poor/uninsured, let them do it. I'm sure it would be great, just like standing in line at the DMV.

Doctors in Great Britain make quite handsome salaries.  They need not make millions per year in order to "get by".  Keep pluggin away there champ.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 06:47:09 PM
Your obviously a PUSSY.  That's number one.  Number two, you offered nothing to my central point regarding Canadian family members who've gotten great service from the Canadian Health System.  Keep trying BITCH!
Epic logic failure.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Irongrip400 on November 11, 2012, 06:55:07 PM
Doctors in Great Britain make quite handsome salaries.  They need not make millions per year in order to "get by".  Keep pluggin away there champ.

Says the dude who can't distinguish between the proper use for your and you're.  ::). It was a general question which needs a real answer. Shit is expensive because it has the cost of research, school, and real life experiences behind it. Now, if everyone worked in a system where things didn't cost money and we all worked for free and maxed out our potential, there wouldn't be a need for it. But, I personally have no problem with a doctor making serious coin for what they do. Shit, most leave school a half million in debt.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: che on November 11, 2012, 06:55:14 PM
 No such thing as a perfect health system  but it's pretty fucked up here.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
Says the dude who can't distinguish between the proper use for your and you're.  ::). It was a general question which needs a real answer. Shit is expensive because it has the cost of research, school, and real life experiences behind it. Now, if everyone worked in a system where things didn't cost money and we all worked for free and maxed out our potential, there wouldn't be a need for it. But, I personally have no problem with a doctor making serious coin for what they do. Shit, most leave school a half million in debt.

Last time I checked, 500K is serious coin.  You're a douche.  Water boy!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Irongrip400 on November 11, 2012, 08:08:04 PM
Last time I checked, 500K is serious coin.  You're a douche.  Water boy!

500k would not be worth the headache and school, and that's not bravado on my part. Seriously.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 11, 2012, 09:39:17 PM
Last time I checked, 500K is serious coin.  You're a douche.  Water boy!

Perhaps it is - last time you checked based on your standards. Not everybody lives where you love and has the same standards.

$500,000/year may be crazy money in Northern Minnesota, but it's not that crazy in Northern California or New York.

$500,000/year may be crazy money to someone working at Wal-Mart, but it's not that crazy to a surgeon who specializes in brain surgery.

And even if you think that $500,000/year is enough for everyone, so what? What you think isn't binding on the rest of us and your thoughts don't entitle you to my money.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 09:41:37 PM
Perhaps it is - last time you checked based on your standards. Not everybody lives where you love and has the same standards.

$500,000/year may be crazy money in Northern Minnesota, but it's not that crazy in Northern California or New York.

$500,000/year may be crazy money to someone working at Wal-Mart, but it's not that crazy to a surgeon who specializes in brain surgery.

And even if you think that $500,000/year is enough for everyone, so what? What you think isn't binding on the rest of us and your thoughts don't entitle you to my money.



I'm sold.  You keep buying lottery tickets and going to casino's.  One day you will strike it rich and I hope the government isn't there to ration your earnings.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 11, 2012, 09:48:48 PM
I'm sold.  You keep buying lottery tickets and going to casino's.  One day you will strike it rich and I hope the government isn't there to ration your earnings.

The government takes way too much from me already, without my having any lottery income.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 09:55:57 PM
The government takes way too much from me already, without my having any lottery income.

I'm quite certain you get more from the govt. than it gets from you.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: avxo on November 11, 2012, 10:07:18 PM
I'm quite certain you get more from the govt. than it gets from you.

Oh, well if you're certain...


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: tbombz on November 11, 2012, 10:12:42 PM
I'm quite certain you get more from the govt. than it gets from you.
considering the 16 trillion dollar debt..  i sure hope so!  ;D


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Shockwave on November 11, 2012, 10:22:54 PM
Oh, well if you're certain...
I lol'd.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 11, 2012, 10:24:01 PM
Your obviously a PUSSY.  That's number one.  Number two, you offered nothing to my central point regarding Canadian family members who've gotten great service from the Canadian Health System.  Keep trying BITCH!

give me your address.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: honest on November 11, 2012, 10:25:54 PM
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

Look up this link and get an unbiased accountants opinion on USA type Capitalism, the current position, how you got there, how you wont fix it, basically its a model followed by all western countries and shows why capitalism is failing.

Your like a bunch of dumb school kids, no wonder your politicians find it so easy to manipulate you. Its based on the current budget and prior actual budgets, self explains all relevant points of this thread and backs it up with actual facts, its neither biased towards democrat or republican, just a self explanatory pilot to explain things you don't understand, but you like to talk about, as if you do.  :D



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Slik on November 11, 2012, 10:40:55 PM
I haven't looked through the thread at all but thanks for filling me in.

Maybe it's different in other provinces but here in Ontario it hasn't been a good experience for me wrt this country's health care system. I'm currently in the largest city in Canada but even when I lived in a city with a much smaller population it was still pretty bad. I wonder what my tax dollars are doing?

Seems like in Canada we punish the hard working people and reward the lazy that don't wanna do anything with their lives. Yeah, its great here if you're looking for a safe and peaceful country to live in where we won't let you starve to death but if you wanna get ahead you're better off elsewhere.

We don't have high murder rates or ghettos other than the reserves where the natives live and even the worst neighbouhoods in Toronto are a cake walk compared to those in the U.S. In the developed world there is no excuse for anyone to remain a financial burden for the rest of the hard working people.

 

 

 

has always been this way since time began. It will never change. It's human nature. Some will be hard working and others just want to do nothing and get everything. The question is, how does the govt in power deal with it. My dad escaped, literally escaped communist china as a young man as his family saw the communist wave coming as he describes it. Guess where he came?  And in this country he worked his ass off, in a foundry, on a railroad, yes my dad is Chinese n worked on the rail line haha, anyway, he was able to work hard and raise a family.  Meanwhile in china the new share the wealth program left his family on dirt floors, half his relatives jailed. Captitalism works and no where in its philosophy does it imply that everyone will be wealthy.  That's the illusion that communism gives.  That everyone will share the wealth and it will be a even society.  It never works.  Leads to corruption of its leaders and my dad told me since I was a kid that most of the workers in china are depressed, unmotivated and miserable.  Can u image in not being allowed to own a home or sharing your shit wi everyone?  Where's the incentive to work harder?  I know things are changing there and it's moving toward a more capitalistic society.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Slik on November 11, 2012, 10:53:48 PM
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/EW5IdwltaAc?rel=0

Look up this link and get an unbiased accountants opinion on USA type Capitalism, the current position, how you got there, how you wont fix it, basically its a model followed by all western countries and shows why capitalism is failing.

Your like a bunch of dumb school kids, no wonder your politicians find it so easy to manipulate you. Its based on the current budget and prior actual budgets, self explains all relevant points of this thread and backs it up with actual facts, its neither biased towards democrat or republican, just a self explanatory pilot to explain things you don't understand, but you like to talk about, as if you do.  :D


whats over spending have to do with USA type of capitalism?  There's too much to read in this entire thread so I'm not sure who u r addressing and wut the point is.  I absolutely agree that there's way too much spending.  I just wasn't sure how that relates to the OPs question.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 11, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
give me your address.

17684 Micokinurmouth Ave.  BITCH!!


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: magikusar on November 12, 2012, 01:09:31 AM
Too much government interfearence.

Capitalism exploded wealth but the freeloaders stared sucking blood and so much that now it will wither.

Like a dog with 1000s of fleas.

Dog needs a flea bath.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 12, 2012, 03:05:09 AM
17684 Micokinurmouth Ave.  BITCH!!

It's strange bro but it's not coming up on my gps. Don't worry though I'll just get the directions later off your mom.


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: AbrahamG on November 12, 2012, 03:08:55 AM
It's strange bro but it's not coming up on my gps. Don't worry though I'll just get the directions later off your mom.

Mom jokes rule.  Leave my mother out of this and I'll leave my 6 inch polish cock out of your mother. 


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 12, 2012, 03:21:09 AM
has always been this way since time began. It will never change. It's human nature. Some will be hard working and others just want to do nothing and get everything. The question is, how does the govt in power deal with it. My dad escaped, literally escaped communist china as a young man as his family saw the communist wave coming as he describes it. Guess where he came?  And in this country he worked his ass off, in a foundry, on a railroad, yes my dad is Chinese n worked on the rail line haha, anyway, he was able to work hard and raise a family. 

Meanwhile in china the new share the wealth program left his family on dirt floors, half his relatives jailed. Captitalism works and no where in its philosophy does it imply that everyone will be wealthy.  That's the illusion that communism gives.  That everyone will share the wealth and it will be a even society.  It never works.  Leads to corruption of its leaders and my dad told me since I was a kid that most of the workers in china are depressed, unmotivated and miserable. 

 Can u image in not being allowed to own a home or sharing your shit wi everyone?  Where's the incentive to work harder?  I know things are changing there and it's moving toward a more capitalistic society.


Yeah communism would drive me nuts. I've heard some ridiculous stories from a few cubans I've met. Apparently in that country they have the highest literacy rates in Latin America, good education and health care system etc. but they don't have the freedom to do certain things like watch an mlb game on tv, read whatever book they want, travel abroad without govt permission...

Nothing in this world will ever be perfect...I'm sure communism is great but only for those people in control.



Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: Borracho on November 12, 2012, 03:30:18 AM
Mom jokes rule.  Leave my mother out of this and I'll leave my 6 inch polish cock out of your mother. 

It's ok my mom likes polacks but that might be too small for her  :-\


Title: Re: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now
Post by: BILL ANVIL on November 13, 2012, 04:53:59 PM
People americans will always want the highest salary while working as little as possible.