Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on December 01, 2012, 08:51:21 AM
-
http://news.yahoo.com/why-obama-pushing-stimulus-fiscal-cliff-deal-video-033547060.html
-
Clearly the answer is to spend more.
-
Sen. Hatch: Obama fiscal proposal 'classic bait and switch'
By Molly K. Hooper - 12/01/12 09:16 AM ET
The top-ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee accused President Obama of pulling a "bait and switch" this week with the administration's proposed deal to avert the so-called "fiscal cliff."
"What [Obama] proposed this week was a classic bait and switch on the American people—a tax increase double the size of what he campaigned on, billions of dollars in new stimulus spending and an unlimited, unchecked authority to borrow from the Chinese," Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) said in Saturday's weekly GOP address.
"Maybe I missed it but I don’t recall him asking for any of that during the presidential campaign. These ideas are so radical that they have already been rejected on a bipartisan basis by Congress."
On Thursday, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner was dispatched to Capitol Hill to share Obama's plan with House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) and Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) The deal included $1.6 trillion in tax hikes, $50 billion in economic stimulus spending and $400 billion in spending cuts. Republicans have demanded more severe spending cuts - including entitlement reform - to begin a discussion on raising taxes.
If Congress fails to act within the next 30 days, a bevy of tax increases and severe spending cuts are set to go into effect, potentially unleashing a devastating blow to the precarious U.S. economy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“If we don’t act by the end of the year, 28 million more families and individuals will be forced to pay the Alternative Minimum Tax, 21 times as many farmers and ranchers will be hit with the death tax, and the average middle-class family would see their taxes go up by at least $2,000," Hatch said.
On Friday, Boehner held a news conference decrying the state of negotiations calling them a "stalemate."
Hatch said that the country needs leadership and compromise to get back on track.
“Americans want Washington to work together to get our country back on track, and to ensure we leave it in a better place than we found it for future generations. This is our chance. Let’s make the hard decisions. Let’s make those decisions we know must be made."
-
Wait, what?
the 1.6 trillion is after the first 250k meatpie.
The 50 billion in stimulus is chump change, you guys are spending 100billion on an israelis air force. The 50 billion is for infrastructure spending, which as you know ::), increases the economy 100% on investment, no problem with that.
400billion is not enough cuts, the defense budget needs a huge cut. Where's the GOP's counter offer? why are the outraged by a plan that is exactly as he previously outlined?
-
spending on infrastructure and math and science education needs to be increased by hundreds of billions of dollars. both should result in more future revenues than they will cost us now (inflation adjusted too).
on the other hand, defense, medicare/medicaid, and social security all need to be cut by a couple hundred billion each.
as for taxes... id like to see the tax rates go down on the poor and middle class, and increased proportionally on the wealthy (but not by a rate increase, by elimination of loopholes and deductions)
-
spending on infrastructure and math and science education needs to be increased by hundreds of billions of dollars. both should result in more future revenues than they will cost us now (inflation adjusted too).
on the other hand, defense, medicare/medicaid, and social security all need to be cut by a couple hundred billion each.
as for taxes... id like to see the tax rates go down on the poor and middle class, and increased proportionally on the wealthy (but not by a rate increase, by elimination of loopholes and deductions)
It is scary that you are allowed to vote. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.
-
It is scary that you are allowed to vote. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.
x 10
-
It is scary that you are allowed to vote. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.
thats an awefully funny thing to say. what exactly do you even mean by that? i "dont know what im talking about"? you mean to say i dont understand the definitions of the words i am using? or that the things i am saying are completely non-sensical ? lol.. if you disagree with something i say, well then by all means please do expand upon your disagreement and enlighten me as to your opinion on the matter! lol
-
It is scary that you are allowed to vote. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.
again what about this will be bad for the economy? everything looks great to me. Increase revenue without taxing the middle class. Increase infrastructure spending which is the best investment a Government can make really, it should be more money invested. Technology and infrastructure will create jobs in the future and present. The cuts should be deeper to defense like I said, it's really really bloated.
-
again what about this will be bad for the economy? everything looks great to me. Increase revenue without taxing the middle class. Increase infrastructure spending which is the best investment a Government can make really, it should be more money invested. Technology and infrastructure will create jobs in the future and present. The cuts should be deeper to defense like I said, it's really really bloated.
Where does money come from?
-
Where does money come from?
Allow me. Inflation by printing money, or by the diversion of resources via taxes.
-
Why do liberals always carry on about infrastructure. Who is it at the DNC that is feeding that to them because they all talk about it? ???
-
again what about this will be bad for the economy? everything looks great to me. Increase revenue without taxing the middle class. Increase infrastructure spending which is the best investment a Government can make really, it should be more money invested. Technology and infrastructure will create jobs in the future and present. The cuts should be deeper to defense like I said, it's really really bloated.
Infrastructure upgrades are needed, but pretty roads don't boost the economy because you need to divert resources for this purpose. The Government doesn't have money to draw from for infrastructure. It gets the funds from the private sector via taxes, or by inflation through creating money.
-
Infrastructure upgrades are needed, but pretty roads don't boost the economy because you need to divert resources for this purpose. The Government doesn't have money to draw from for infrastructure. It gets the funds from the private sector via taxes, or by inflation through creating money.
Anyone with even the smallest grasp on economics should be able to see that spending, borrowing and printing money at this rate is going to collapse the economy. I believe that this is what the POTUS wants to happen. They are purposely trying to wreck the economy so they can introduce even more radical stuff as the "solution". When it happens they will site it as proof that capitolism has failed. They know that they have Bush as a lifetime scapegoat and that they will never be blamed for it.
Enjoy slavery everyone.
-
Anyone with even the smallest grasp on economics should be able to see that spending, borrowing and printing money at this rate is going to collapse the economy. I believe that this is what the POTUS wants to happen. They are purposely trying to wreck the economy so they can introduce even more radical stuff as the "solution". When it happens they will site it as proof that capitolism has failed. They know that they have Bush as a lifetime scapegoat and that they will never be blamed for it.
Enjoy slavery everyone.
You've got it. Sadly, the bulk of people are sheep who fail to see the signs of what is yet to come in the not so distant future. They are easily appeased by their Obama phones and by the schills that reassure them that everything is going to be all right. The masses fail to grasp even the most rudimentary aspects of the monetary system, instead investing their time in reality tv shows, or making sure they are first through Walmart's doors on Black Friday. These same people will cause massive civil unrest when the hand outs stop. It's very easy for the people in power to orchestrate what is in motion, when they govern over a society of idiots.
-
spending on infrastructure and math and science education needs to be increased by hundreds of billions of dollars. both should result in more future revenues than they will cost us now (inflation adjusted too).
on the other hand, defense, medicare/medicaid, and social security all need to be cut by a couple hundred billion each.
as for taxes... id like to see the tax rates go down on the poor and middle class, and increased proportionally on the wealthy (but not by a rate increase, by elimination of loopholes and deductions)
+1
-
It is scary that you are allowed to vote. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Literally, none.
Enlighten us George...
-
You've got it. Sadly, the bulk of people are sheep who fail to see the signs of what is yet to come in the not so distant future. They are easily appeased by their Obama phones and by the schills that reassure them that everything is going to be all right. The masses fail to grasp even the most rudimentary aspects of the monetary system, instead investing their time in reality tv shows, or making sure they are first through Walmart's doors on Black Friday. These same people will cause massive civil unrest when the hand outs stop. It's very easy for the people in power to orchestrate what is in motion, when they govern over a society of idiots.
So the people in power is trying to make massive civil unrest?
Isnt that kind of stupid why create unrest in your own "kingdom"?
-
again what about this will be bad for the economy? everything looks great to me. Increase revenue without taxing the middle class. Increase infrastructure spending which is the best investment a Government can make really, it should be more money invested. Technology and infrastructure will create jobs in the future and present. The cuts should be deeper to defense like I said, it's really really bloated.
333's basic question sets the framework as to why this is a stupid idea that is horrible for the economy. But beyond that, have you been paying attention to the past four years? Do you know how much money we have pissed away on "infrastructure" spending-- shovel ready jobs? What was the supposed purpose of the first stimulus package?
Everything looks great to you because you are completely clueless and ignorant.
Defense spending is not the issue. It is less than one quarter of government spending. Again, educate yourself on the Federal budget. Stop being lazy and regurgitating leftist talking points. You're repeating a lie over and over and over again.
The middle class are going to be taxed across the board ( it is inevitable) if spending continues at these rates because the so called rich don't have enough money to support the ever expanding growth of the government.
Economics 101: Printing money devalues our currency. It leads to inflation. It makes goods and services more expensive. That harms the middle class.
Raising taxes on the so called wealthy is bad for the economy for several reasons; A short list is as follows-(1) The wealthy are not stupid. Assets and liquidity will be moved off shore, hidden, put in tax shelters and moved out of government reach. This is bad for the middle class because it retards economic growth. When you tax something (wealth), you get less of it. (2) Business owners will not absorb the cost of higher taxes. They will hire less employees, fire existing employees, take less risks, cut hours or pass the cost along to their customers. As a result, there will be less jobs for the middle class, less income for the middle class etc. (3) Government does not create anything, make anything or have any of its own money. It can only print or tax. Whenever the government takes money out of the private sector via taxation, it is shrinking the productivity of the private sector. In an ironic way, higher taxation actually reduces the amount of revenue generated for the government because it shrinks economic growth which in turn reduces productivity, which in turn shrinks the workforce, which in turn narrows the tax base. (4) Notice that the definition of "wealthy" is ever growing. First it was millionaires and billionaires. Then it was individuals earning 250k plus. Then it was couples. Now its couples earning over 200k. And as the definition of rich grows, poverty seems to be increasing steadily. And in between, the middle class continues to shrink.
Last but not least; Government spending to create jobs growth in the form of government jobs is the most illogical and harmful thing (next to excessive taxation) that can be done to an economy. Think of the warped logic--> The government devalues the nations currency and takes money out of the private sector to create government agencies and jobs that are funded by the private sector. How can that possibly create economic growth? How can you possibly grow the private sector by shrinking it?
-
http://www.businessinsider.com/infrastructure-economic-multiplier-2012-11
hello
-
Economics 101: Printing money devalues our currency. It leads to inflation. It makes goods and services more expensive. That harms the middle class.
This is not rocket science but 50% of the population doesn't seem to care.
Lets say Obama doesn't raise taxes on the middle class. If food, gas, medicine, and everything else is more expensive everyone is affected. Rich, poor, middle class, everyone.
-
So the people in power is trying to make massive civil unrest?
Isnt that kind of stupid why create unrest in your own "kingdom"?
It's about control. We are on the verge of the biggest wealth transfer in history. When things fall apart completely, with the economy in shambles and the masses in fear, they will claim to have the answer, which will entail their having total control to, "protect us". Reminds one of another event in recent history, doesn't it? Civil unrest is merely a predictable result, for which they are already prepping for.
This goes beyond the United States or its Government. Look at Europe and the collapse that has been engineered there. That is just the warm up. The U.S economy is the main event.
-
It's about control. We are on the verge of the biggest wealth transfer in history. When things fall apart completely, with the economy in shambles and the masses in fear, they will claim to have the answer, which will entail their having total control to, "protect us". Reminds one of another event in recent history, doesn't it? Civil unrest is merely a predictable result, for which they are already prepping for.
This goes beyond the United States or its Government. Look at Europe and the collapse that has been engineered there. That is just the warm up. The U.S economy is the main event.
Who is pulling the strings?
Illuminati?
-
Who is pulling the strings?
Illuminati?
Go read creature from Jekyll island.
-
Go read creature from Jekyll island.
No time just give me the highlights :)
-
Aren't those spending "cuts" just carry overs from the Debt Ceiling negotiations held last year?
I'm also pretty sure those "cuts" also include the projected savings from winding down the wars.
So in actuality there aren't going to be any cuts to spending. More taxes, yes, but no real cuts.
When it comes to economics we, as a nation, shouldn't be following the Japanese, they've been in a rut for 20 years and insist on doing the same things over and over again.
When you are always having to issue new "stimulus" because the economy is "Fragile" and the "recovery" is "slowing" you aren't really in a recovery, you're in a recession.
-
http://www.businessinsider.com/infrastructure-economic-multiplier-2012-11
hello
sadly i dont think any of these conservatives are going to bother reading that, and even if they do i think they will most likely refuse to allow it any consideration.
george whorewell and others like to talk about printing money and inflation, at the same time telling other that they dont know anything about economics. whats funny is that there characterization about inflation and printing money is over simplified and inaccurate. the price of money is dictated by the ratio of the money supply to the supply of goods and services. so long as the supply of goods and services rises proportionally to the increase in money supply, the price of money remains the same. and that is exactly what is happening now. we are printing money but the amount of goods and services is rising as well (in proportion to the rise in population) and the two balance eachother out to keep inflation at stable levels.
but hey, what do i know? ;D
-
sadly i dont think any of these conservatives are going to bother reading that, and even if they do i think they will most likely refuse to allow it any consideration.
george whorewell and others like to talk about printing money and inflation, at the same time telling other that they dont know anything about economics. whats funny is that there characterization about inflation and printing money is over simplified and inaccurate. the price of money is dictated by the ratio of the money supply to the supply of goods and services. so long as the supply of goods and services rises proportionally to the increase in money supply, the price of money remains the same. and that is exactly what is happening now. we are printing money but the amount of goods and services is rising as well (in proportion to the rise in population) and the two balance eachother out to keep inflation at stable levels.
but hey, what do i know? ;D
No that is not what is happening now. You are printing money because of deflationary pressure caused by a lack of demand, due to a great extent to investors/consumers not having the economic confidence to part with their money.
This is also why you have interest rates stuck at a record low.
Goods and services are not rising, growth is stagnant/declining because of the lack of demand.
-
sadly i dont think any of these conservatives are going to bother reading that, and even if they do i think they will most likely refuse to allow it any consideration.
george whorewell and others like to talk about printing money and inflation, at the same time telling other that they dont know anything about economics. whats funny is that there characterization about inflation and printing money is over simplified and inaccurate. the price of money is dictated by the ratio of the money supply to the supply of goods and services. so long as the supply of goods and services rises proportionally to the increase in money supply, the price of money remains the same. and that is exactly what is happening now. we are printing money but the amount of goods and services is rising as well (in proportion to the rise in population) and the two balance eachother out to keep inflation at stable levels.
but hey, what do i know? ;D
Thanks professor. Not surprisingly, that was another half-assed, incorrect, inapplicable explanation of a topic that you know less than nothing about. Is the Federal Reserve's pledge to print 30 billion dollars a month in perpetuity to purchase bad mortgages the result of "goods and services" dictating the money supply?
-
http://www.businessinsider.com/infrastructure-economic-multiplier-2012-11
hello
Keynesian cocksuckers also say that every $1 dollar in food stamps adds $1.80 to the economy. By their logic, the entire country should be put on food stamps. ::)
-
No that is not what is happening now. You are printing money because of deflationary pressure caused by a lack of demand, due to a great extent to investors/consumers not having the economic confidence to part with their money.
This is also why you have interest rates stuck at a record low.
Goods and services are not rising, growth is stagnant/declining because of the lack of demand.
while pretty much everything you said is true, when we talk about growth we need to define our terms. are we talking quantitative or qualitative. all we need is a quantitative growth in goods and services in order to balance out an increase in the money supply. we dont need to have a qualitative increase in measures of prosperity. unemployment, a qualitative statistic, is stagnant. however, total jobs are increasing by the hundreds of thousands every month. the increase in populationn keeps the qualitative statistic at equilibirum. but quantitatively speaking are economic output is indeed increasing, every single month.
-
Thanks professor. Not surprisingly, that was another half-assed, incorrect, inapplicable explanation of a topic that you know less than nothing about. Is the Federal Reserve's pledge to print 30 billion dollars a month in perpetuity to purchase bad mortgages the result of "goods and services" dictating the money supply?
well, i didnt say that goods and services were dictating the money supply. maybe you need to re-read what i wrote. :) if you would like to expand on why you think my explanation about inflation and money supply being incorrect and inapplicable, go right ahead. :) ;D
by the way, keep calling me professor. its becoming. ;)
-
Keynesian cocksuckers also say that every $1 dollar in food stamps adds $1.80 to the economy. By their logic, the entire country should be put on food stamps. ::)
well, your basically saying that every single goverment policy that results in more benefits than negative effects should be implemented to the maximum degree. thats a very utilitarian way of thinking and it basically says that you think the ends justify the means.
now, all of that being said, would you like to refute that idea about food stamps adding 1.8 for every 1 spent ? :)
-
while pretty much everything you said is true, when we talk about growth we need to define our terms. are we talking quantitative or qualitative. all we need is a quantitative growth in goods and services in order to balance out an increase in the money supply. we dont need to have a qualitative increase in measures of prosperity. unemployment, a qualitative statistic, is stagnant. however, total jobs are increasing by the hundreds of thousands every month. the increase in populationn keeps the qualitative statistic at equilibirum. but quantitatively speaking are economic output is indeed increasing, every single month.
Dude that is just mumbo jumbo. When talking about growth it is always in "quantitative" terms (unless otherwise stated).
I said that growth was stagnant/declining in the US in reference to your GDP figures of recent years. GDP is a measure of the total value of goods and services produced by a country, it has nothing to do with any gauging of quality of anything, just a straight measure of a nation's total economic output.
And how are unemployment figures a "qualitative" statistic?
Surely unemployment figures just show how many people (quantitatively) don't have jobs, no?
Also it's worth bearing in minds that governments are not adverse to massaging job/unemployment figs to make things look better than they are.
-
well, i didnt say that goods and services were dictating the money supply. maybe you need to re-read what i wrote. :) if you would like to expand on why you think my explanation about inflation and money supply being incorrect and inapplicable, go right ahead. :) ;D
by the way, keep calling me professor. its becoming. ;)
so long as the supply of goods and services rises proportionally to the increase in money supply, the price of money remains the same. and that is exactly what is happening now.
-
well, your basically saying that every single goverment policy that results in more benefits than negative effects should be implemented to the maximum degree. thats a very utilitarian way of thinking and it basically says that you think the ends justify the means.
now, all of that being said, would you like to refute that idea about food stamps adding 1.8 for every 1 spent ? :)
An autistic gerbil could refute the idea that food stamps adds $1.80 for every dollar spent.
-
so long as the supply of goods and services rises proportionally to the increase in money supply, the price of money remains the same. and that is exactly what is happening now.
Goods and services are not rising proportionately with the increase in money supply. The money that's been printed is simply not reaching the real economy. When money is printed it is given to the banks with the aim that they lend to businesses/consumers, but the problem is people don't have the economic confidence to expand or start up new businesses given the current climate, so it is hard to actually get them to borrow the money. This coupled with the fact that the criteria for borrowing money is now stricter since a lot of the blame for the banking crash was put on banks for making bad loans, this makes it even more difficult for the new money to reach the real economy.
You said in an earlier post that printing money devalues the currency and causes inflation, which is correct(in theory) but that is actually the aim.
Money is being printed because the long term fear is deflation not inflation, and the current lack of demand is squeezing down the profits (or forcing out of business) those that supply goods and services. The whole point of increasing the money supply is to make it less valuable so that people start parting with it again and demand for goods and services goes back up and decent growth is restored. Whether that actually happens or not is a different matter.
Japan has been in a similar situation with deflationary pressure and stagnant growth since the 90s, they have undertaken several rounds of quantitative easing along with other measures of fiscal stimulus and rather than this causing an inflationary spiral, inflation there is still deadlining.
-
Keynesian cocksuckers also say that every $1 dollar in food stamps adds $1.80 to the economy. By their logic, the entire country should be put on food stamps. ::)
source?
-
source?
Go back to bed.
-
Go back to bed.
ok
-
Goods and services are not rising proportionately with the increase in money supply. The money that's been printed is simply not reaching the real economy. When money is printed it is given to the banks with the aim that they lend to businesses/consumers, but the problem is people don't have the economic confidence to expand or start up new businesses given the current climate, so it is hard to actually get them to borrow the money. This coupled with the fact that the criteria for borrowing money is now stricter since a lot of the blame for the banking crash was put on banks for making bad loans, this makes it even more difficult for the new money to reach the real economy.
You said in an earlier post that printing money devalues the currency and causes inflation, which is correct(in theory) but that is actually the aim.
Money is being printed because the long term fear is deflation not inflation, and the current lack of demand is squeezing down the profits (or forcing out of business) those that supply goods and services. The whole point of increasing the money supply is to make it less valuable so that people start parting with it again and demand for goods and services goes back up and decent growth is restored. Whether that actually happens or not is a different matter.
Japan has been in a similar situation with deflationary pressure and stagnant growth since the 90s, they have undertaken several rounds of quantitative easing along with other measures of fiscal stimulus and rather than this causing an inflationary spiral, inflation there is still deadlining.
I was quoting tobombz in that posting. You have it 100% correct. He has no clue about what hes talking about.