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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Borracho on December 22, 2012, 12:08:58 PM



Title: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 22, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
I hear people say this all the time.....

Why is it worse on shoulders than incline or decline?

Does it matter if its bb or db ?


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: kimo on December 22, 2012, 12:28:34 PM
barbell is tougher . well i never had any trouble . dont overdo flt bench anyway . train shoulder accordingly . presses laterals . etc .


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 22, 2012, 12:38:25 PM
barbell is tougher . well i never had any trouble . dont overdo flt bench anyway . train shoulder accordingly . presses laterals . etc .

I really dislike using barbells when training chest but the dbs at my new gym are on the lighter side.  :(

But I wonder why a flat bb would be worse for my shoulders than an incline when shoulders come more into play when on the elevated angle....


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: funk51 on December 22, 2012, 01:20:42 PM
12 years ago i wrecked my left shoulder at work, dislocation. after i recovered i started useing this machine for flat benching never went back. can be used for flat, incline,decline and upright 90 degrees presses. i also do some light incline work never over 60 lb dbs and standing presses never over 135lbs.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on December 23, 2012, 06:49:30 AM
i've had shoulder issues in the past but for me it comes down to a good warm up... as long as my joints are always well 'lubricated' before i start lifting i can avoid most issues... i've had similar experiences with my wrists, elbows and knees

my current warm up consists of joint circles and then some jump rope

joint circles routine looks like this and takes me about 5 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNiC_jL9bko


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: TrapsMcLats on December 23, 2012, 12:01:29 PM
I fucked up my shoulder a while ago doing flat barbell bench, and that fixed plane hurts it still, but i am fine on db flat bench.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 23, 2012, 12:25:58 PM
Decline Bench is kinder to your shoulders too.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 23, 2012, 04:36:23 PM
i've had shoulder issues in the past but for me it comes down to a good warm up... as long as my joints are always well 'lubricated' before i start lifting i can avoid most issues... i've had similar experiences with my wrists, elbows and knees

my current warm up consists of joint circles and then some jump rope

joint circles routine looks like this and takes me about 5 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNiC_jL9bko

Good stuff Woo!


I fucked up my shoulder a while ago doing flat barbell bench, and that fixed plane hurts it still, but i am fine on db flat bench.

Sucks!

Decline Bench is kinder to your shoulders too.

Haven't done these in years as my chest is lagging in the upper portion. You think I should still be doing this exercise?






Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on December 23, 2012, 06:02:32 PM
Good stuff Woo!


yeah i know that it looks a bit retarded but it really works and warms up my joints


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: kimo on December 25, 2012, 06:02:51 AM
train your delts hard dont overdo the flat bench .


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 25, 2012, 07:19:06 AM
yeah i know that it looks a bit retarded but it really works and warms up my joints
Itīs not retarded Wooo itīs great advice...thank you.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: nasht5 on December 25, 2012, 07:20:19 AM
what is vitaly important is the width of the bench you are using. you do want a wide enough bench that it supports your shoulders while your benching or YES you can hurt your shoulders.

the problem isn't BB benching, the problem is the width of the bench itself that is the danger.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 25, 2012, 08:10:09 AM
what is vitaly important is the width of the bench you are using. you do want a wide enough bench that it supports your shoulders while your benching or YES you can hurt your shoulders.

the problem isn't BB benching, the problem is the width of the bench itself that is the danger.
I agree with you. This is the same with chin ups. Wide Grip ...wide lats. Do not believe it at all. Wide grip benches and chins leave the shoulder open to injury. I bench slightly wider than shoulder width and chins i do supinated sternum chins. Also the press behind neck is a suspect exercise. A very good post nasht5


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: nasht5 on December 25, 2012, 08:33:03 AM
behind the neck press and even behind the neck pulldowns are very technical excercises that require strict proper form. alot of injuries originate for people who do these movements with improper form, to much weight and not warming up & stretching properly.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 25, 2012, 09:05:00 AM
behind the neck press and even behind the neck pulldowns are very technical excercises that require strict proper form. alot of injuries originate for people who do these movements with improper form, to much weight and not warming up & stretching properly.
I see the press behind the neck very seldom where i work.. i know a guy who does a front press followed by a rear press (not new Gironda liked these) The rear lat pull down i see often but i do not recommend it like the rear delt press. For lats sterum pull ups or pull downs(leaning slighty back press your chest out) feel your shoulder blades move. Only my opinion ... ;D


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: kimo on December 26, 2012, 06:21:16 AM
someone who is built solidly and eat well should not be that prone to injury . though . i remember at age 18 benching my near max without warm up and i did not injure myself.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 26, 2012, 06:57:59 AM
someone who is built solidly and eat well should not be that prone to injury . though . i remember at age 18 benching my near max without warm up and i did not injure myself.
yes some people bench heavy for years and are OK...some find dips better or decline press...for others Dumbbells are the best exercise. We are all diffrent.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 26, 2012, 07:13:24 AM
someone who is built solidly and eat well should not be that prone to injury . though . i remember at age 18 benching my near max without warm up and i did not injure myself.

I remember feeling a little pain in my left shoulder back when I started lifting the 40 lb dbs  ;D

Either some structural flaw or a previous sport injury. Luckily it's not bad but I do feel a little discomfort from time to time. I've been able to keep training for 10 years and adding weight without any serious injury but at times the left shoulder does start acting up.

That's the reason I'm wondering about the flat cause I wanna be able to keep training forever like some the older guys here who train smart.

For chest I never use a weight I can't handle for at least 6-8 reps and if cutting out flat bb would help prevent future injuries than I'm willing to ditch them.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 26, 2012, 08:09:51 AM
I remember feeling a little pain in my left shoulder back when I started lifting the 40 lb dbs  ;D

Either some structural flaw or a previous sport injury. Luckily it's not bad but I do feel a little discomfort from time to time. I've been able to keep training for 10 years and adding weight without any serious injury but at times the left shoulder does start acting up.

That's the reason I'm wondering about the flat cause I wanna be able to keep training forever like some the older guys here who train smart.

For chest I never use a weight I can't handle for at least 6-8 reps and if cutting out flat bb would help prevent future injuries than I'm willing to ditch them.
you do not have to Flat Bench press. If i was you i would do Decline bench and Incline DB press or a machine like incline hammer press...up to you. Or dips and incline press...or dips..push ups...db flys (tri set)...after 3-5 sets you will be fried. experiment..THERE ARE NO RULES;; JUST WHAT WORKS FOR YOU:


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 26, 2012, 08:30:47 AM
you do not have to Flat Bench press. If i was you i would do Decline bench and Incline DB press or a machine like incline hammer press...up to you. Or dips and incline press...or dips..push ups...db flys (tri set)...after 3-5 sets you will be fried. experiment..THERE ARE NO RULES;; JUST WHAT WORKS FOR YOU:

Cool donny I will try different things. I think it may be time for something like a tri set or just lighter weights and keep moving along quicker.

So hey, do you think an incline bb places less stress on the shoulder?

Thing is, I like to concentrate more on the upper portion of my chest but the dbs at my current gym don't go as high as I'd like them to.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 26, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
I think it depends on you. really best is if you have a good incline bench machine. do these with Decline Barbell press...I know that most people can train with shoulder problems with the Decline and it hits the whole chest, more emphasis on the lower area but you will still get good development. my suggestion:

Decline Barbell press 3-5 sets x 8-10 reps
Flat Bench flyes SUPERSET with
Machine Incline press   3-5 sets x8-10

I do not know if flyes will irritate your shoulders. If they do just stick to pressing. The best angle i had for incline press was about 30% in my home gym.. a thick block of wood under the legs of my bench. It worked great and i used Dumbbells. Really hit my chest, problem is a lot use a too steep incline and hit shoulders more. 30-35% is perfect. Dips i also like but they can be hard for shoulders for some..decline press is a very overlooked exercise...but only you know your body and this is just my opinion


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 26, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
Thanks for the tips.

Chest day today so I'll try the decline today and see how it feels.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 26, 2012, 08:56:02 AM
Thanks for the tips.

Chest day today so I'll try the decline today and see how it feels.

one thing i would avoid with a shoulder injury is incline flyes..thatīs why i wrote do flat flyes if you can do them..


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: njflex on December 26, 2012, 10:57:21 AM
one thing i would avoid with a shoulder injury is incline flyes..thatīs why i wrote do flat flyes if you can do them..
I LIKE INCLINE FLYES BUT YEAH HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.ON A GOOD DAY ALL SYSTEMS ON GO I CAN DO 70'S ON INCLINE FLYE DOSEN'T HAPPEN OFTEN THO,,,50/60'S MOST OF THE TIME.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 27, 2012, 06:09:28 AM
Couldn't do flat db flies yesterday but managed to do decline bb, incline machine and some cable flies.

A recent job I was doing had me overusing my shoulders all day so I think that's the reason why its been acting up again.

Gonna be doing a little traveling in the new year so that'll give me a much needed break. If I don't train for 2 days by the 3rd I start getting withdrawals symptoms and start feeling completely insane. I'll definitely be doing some pushups and pull ups on tree branches at least so I don't kill someone or myself.  ;D


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 27, 2012, 06:50:52 AM
Couldn't do flat db flies yesterday but managed to do decline bb, incline machine and some cable flies.

A recent job I was doing had me overusing my shoulders all day so I think that's the reason why its been acting up again.

Gonna be doing a little traveling in the new year so that'll give me a much needed break. If I don't train for 2 days by the 3rd I start getting withdrawals symptoms and start feeling completely insane. I'll definitely be doing some pushups and pull ups on tree branches at least so I don't kill someone or myself.  ;D
let us know how your shoulder feels in the next day or two....


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: jpm101 on December 27, 2012, 10:34:34 AM
As most of us understand, benches (flat, incline. decline) don't seem to give the results with the effort put into them.  The DB's over BB's  would be a better option for most.  The path of DB's is more in harmony with the arc/path of the actually press. The "S" path to a lesser degree,but still important. A too set/fixed movement, with a BB, often invites injury. Another problem is that of going too heavy, too often. In most gym's you may notice that the guy's with the best pecs are the BB'ers over the heavy duty benchers.  Repping out fast 220 to 270's, rather than going with slower 400+ 3-4 forced reps does have it's advantages. Than again, most men can't make up their mind if they want to be a BB'er or PL'er.  

The bench press to the upper chest or neck (elbows out wide & inline with the neck/upper chest) may be the better option for more direct pec influence when using a BB (flat, incline, decline). Of course a pair of DB's would work very well with this exercise. In either case, the stretch/ROM will be greater. If new to this movement, warmup with care, use a much lighter weight than in regular benching and , most important, have a awake spotter near by. If training alone, a good advantage is to have a PR, rack or some type of stops.

Gironda advised benching this way. Don't know if he was the first to adapt this style. Probably not, he did borrow, and adapt, a lot of his exercise methods from those before him and during his time. West coast guy's were really very inventive when it came to BB'ing.  Still are today from what I witness.

Dips (weighted) are an excellent pec builder. Not only a better stretch, but changing hand positions can affect upper/lower development in different ways, almost insuring a complete pec involvement. A steep Declines press can mock dips, but not to the same results that full dips can.

DB fly's are a short range direct pec exercise. Once the DB's reach roughly above 50 degrees, the tension is reduced off the pec's themselves to a greater degree.  Cables have the advantage, over DB flys, of keeping most of the tension during the entire movement. A better option might be a Pec Deck, where the elbows lead the movement and a greater resistance/weight can be used., in all positions.

Might suggest: A pre-exhaust  system.  Some confuse this with a SS, which it is not.

1) Pec Deck   7-10 reps    3 sets
2) Dips          7-10 reps    3 sets

No rest between exercise 1 and 2, this is the first cycle. Rest 60 to 90 seconds between cycles. If no Peck Deck, than cables. If no cables than DB's.

If into conventional training, than do the dips first (3 sets) and than the extension movements (pec deck, cables, DB's), 3 sets. Good Luck.






Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 27, 2012, 11:18:05 AM
Bench press to neck Gironda style is terrible for a shoulder injury. Very surprised you wrote that, terrible. ???


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: jpm101 on December 27, 2012, 01:02:18 PM
Donny:  Hmmmm..two "terrible(s)" in one post..impressive, I must say. Plus a perplexed unhappy face!

Investigating the bench to the neck/throat/upper pec exercise may clear things up a bit, regarding proper performance. If time is taken to do so.  Gironda did not always highlight this form of the bench (or any benching for that matter), but it was included within some of his chest training work. I, like Gironda way back then, think too much time and attention is spent of benching now a days. Larry Scott, among many other BB'ers, have tried and used this exercise. in the past.

Of course, as we all know, every exercise is not meant for everyone. But most exercises are worth a try. And starting out with very light weight...sometimes with only a exercise bar.  Reason I mentioned that form of benching was to throw it in the mix for general consideration. Lot of exercises  that most have not discovered, as yet.  As there are dozens of workout methods that haven't been brought to attention on GB. If anyone feels a danger when first trying a new exercise (using very light weight), than don't do it. Use your common sense. Good Luck.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 27, 2012, 01:13:39 PM
Donny:  Hmmmm..two "terrible(s)" in one post..impressive, I must say. Plus a perplexed unhappy face!

Investigating the bench to the neck/throat/upper pec exercise may clear things up a bit, regarding proper performance. If time is taken to do so.  Gironda did not always highlight this form of the bench (or any benching for that matter), but it was included within some of his chest training work. I, like Gironda way back then, think too much time and attention is spent of benching now a days. Larry Scott, among many other BB'ers, have tried and used this exercise. in the past.

Of course, as we all know, every exercise is not meant for everyone. But most exercises are worth a try. And starting out with very light weight...sometimes with only a exercise bar.  Reason I mentioned that form of benching was to throw it in the mix for general consideration. Lot of exercises  that most have not discovered, as yet.  As there are dozens of workout methods that haven't been brought to attention on GB. If anyone feels a danger when first trying a new exercise (using very light weight), than don't do it. Use your common sense. Good Luck.
write sense and i might smile. your posts are long winded and repeat themselves. If you believe benching to the neck region is good with a shoulder injury then so be it. To be honest i am sick of you being negative on some of my posts. stick to your powerlifting with one arm chins with seniors. Benching to the neck region i knew years ago. get with the times. I enbrace old school but i have a good knowledge of training and Anatomy. you seem to see your ideas and nothing else.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: jpm101 on December 27, 2012, 01:28:38 PM
Donny: I'm sure you have excellent information, insight and hands on experience. And have trained hundred of men to greatness.. Can we crown you as the king of the training site?  Not to mention you are here, seemly 24/7, to spread your knowledge. God Bess and Good Luck.


Side Bar: wonder why Donny reminds me of Pumpster?


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 27, 2012, 01:34:12 PM
Donny: I'm sure you have excellent information, insight and hands on experience. And have trained hundred of men to greatness.. Can we crown you as the king of the training site?  Not to mention you are here, seemly 24/7, to spread your knowledge. God Bess and Good Luck.


Side Bar: wonder why Donny reminds me of Pumpster?
no you are a guy who comes across as very narrow minded and your training methods are powerlifting orientated.. my god i feel sorry for your seniors.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: njflex on December 27, 2012, 01:46:51 PM
I HAVE DONE BENCH TO THE NECK AND YES CAN LEAD TO OR REINJURE A PRE EXISITING SHOULDER ISSUE,,,I DO LIKE THEM BUT NEED TO BE DONE SLOW AND WITH MUCH LESS WEIGHT THAN WHAT IS DONE ON INC OR FLAT OF COURSE,,I USE SMITH FOR IT DUE TO BAR BEING FIXED AND U CAN POSITION BODY WITH EASE TO GET CHEST WORKED...


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Borracho on December 27, 2012, 03:45:05 PM
I started a thread on developing a lagging upper chest a while ago and the bench to the neck came up. I did try the exercise and it was fine until I started to add weight to it since it did aggravate my left shoulder. Maybe some people are able to do it without problems just like the guys I see doing behind the neck shoulder press/pull up/pull downs in the gym. Unfortunately, I'm unable to and even just looking at them performing those exercise makes my shoulders hurt. 

As donny mentioned earlier wrt to other exercises it really does depend on the individual. You have to try all this stuff on yourself and see what works for you. Either way, everyone's input is greatly appreciated but keep in mind that we will never respond to the same training methods. (no homo)


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: TrapsMcLats on December 27, 2012, 06:19:11 PM
I don't understand my shoulder problem...  I can't do dips anymore, and i can't do flat barbell bench press...but i can dumbbell press more than i've ever done in my life.  Either way, i stay away from barbell bench press.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on December 29, 2012, 01:31:16 PM
I don't understand my shoulder problem...  I can't do dips anymore, and i can't do flat barbell bench press...but i can dumbbell press more than i've ever done in my life.  Either way, i stay away from barbell bench press.
Dumbbells are good as you can move more in a natural plane and rotate your hands.. your correct in your observations.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on December 29, 2012, 02:05:06 PM
I don't understand my shoulder problem...  I can't do dips anymore, and i can't do flat barbell bench press...but i can dumbbell press more than i've ever done in my life.  Either way, i stay away from barbell bench press.

Stick with what works for you


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Big Daddy Caine on January 15, 2013, 05:35:47 AM
A few months ago I started doing reverse grip bench presses when I do either flat or decline benches, if I do inclines, I like to use a low incline or use the hammer strength inclines.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on January 15, 2013, 05:37:50 AM
yesterday i just used dumbbells...today my chest and shoulders feel great.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: godeep on January 15, 2013, 08:37:02 AM
No more flat bench for me, probably forever. 2 shoulder injuries over the years had a lasting effect.

I do dumbbells with no issue whatsoever.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on January 15, 2013, 08:55:56 AM
No more flat bench for me, probably forever. 2 shoulder injuries over the years had a lasting effect.

I do dumbbells with no issue whatsoever.
Dumbbells are great.. they work so many muscles...you stabilize the bells. no cheating and if you have a weak side you can even do a few more reps for that side.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on January 15, 2013, 10:15:40 AM
Dumbbells are great.. they work so many muscles...you stabilize the bells. no cheating and if you have a weak side you can even do a few more reps for that side.

I agree. I tend to use dumbbells after barbells though so I don't have to go as heavy. Hoisting the 130s up gets taxing and dangerous. (130 is as high as my power locks go)


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: Donny on January 15, 2013, 10:45:21 AM
I agree. I tend to use dumbbells after barbells though so I don't have to go as heavy. Hoisting the 130s up gets taxing and dangerous. (130 is as high as my power locks go)
130s.. no i am not that strong. I can still manage and if i need a spot one of my boys do it.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on January 15, 2013, 11:58:52 AM
130s.. no i am not that strong. I can still manage and if i need a spot one of my boys do it.

My cats and dogs like to fight around me while I lift. It's amazing that I haven't crushed one of them over the years.

On occasion ill have my wife spot me. But it's mostly so I can stare at her tits.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: wild willie on January 15, 2013, 07:34:38 PM
A few months ago I started doing reverse grip bench presses when I do either flat or decline benches, if I do inclines, I like to use a low incline or use the hammer strength inclines.
I also prefer a low incline.....about 30 degrees.


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: trapz101 on January 16, 2013, 08:48:36 PM
My cats and dogs like to fight around me while I lift. It's amazing that I haven't crushed one of them over the years.

On occasion ill have my wife spot me. But it's mostly so I can stare at her tits.

but i guess more blood will rush to your penis,kind of beat the purpose of benching doesn't it?


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on January 17, 2013, 05:43:42 AM
but i guess more blood will rush to your penis,kind of beat the purpose of benching doesn't it?


penis is more important than pecs

no homo


Title: Re: Flat BB bench a "shoulder killer"
Post by: WOOO on January 17, 2013, 07:43:45 PM
and learn to feel the difference when the training load goes to chest or delts.very important imo

very important for every movement...