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Title: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 16, 2013, 05:41:34 AM
I've been lifting for 20 years. In all those years I've never done standing barbell presses. I've done thrusters and clean/jerk and snatch, etc. and obviously I've done several variations of seated shoulder presses.

2 weeks ago I decided to try the standing version after watching big Lou do them in pumping iron. Well. I'm in love. Not with Lou of course. With standing barbell shoulder presses.

I can manage 245 for 8-10 seated but standing I struggled with 135 in the first week. This week my last set was with 185 for 10 and it was awesome (brutal).

The movement is difficult. It requires a lot of total body strength to manage strict overhead presses. Best of all cheating for 1 or 2 more reps is pretty easy (thruster style).

Anybody do these?


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 16, 2013, 05:48:20 AM
I've been lifting for 20 years. In all those years I've never done standing barbell presses. I've done thrusters and clean/jerk and snatch, etc. and obviously I've done several variations of seated shoulder presses.

2 weeks ago I decided to try the standing version after watching big Lou do them in pumping iron. Well. I'm in love. Not with Lou of course. With standing barbell shoulder presses.

I can manage 245 for 8-10 seated but standing I struggled with 135 in the first week. This week my last set was with 185 for 10 and it was awesome (brutal).

The movement is difficult. It requires a lot of total body strength to manage strict overhead presses. Best of all cheating for 1 or 2 more reps is pretty easy (thruster style).

Anybody do these?
i always do them standing. I do not even wear a belt either. will be doing them today


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: booty on January 16, 2013, 05:50:58 AM
I used to always do them standing and then I started sitting.  Last week I went back to standing ones and preferred them over sitting down.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Montague on January 16, 2013, 06:03:29 AM
I've done both, though lately, I've done them seated.
IMO, both offer advantages:

Seated is a bit more forgiving on the back and can keep the form stricter.

Standing recruits more stabilizer muscles, and the legs can be used to extend sets past positive failure by employing a a push-press if so desired. Minor adjustments in posture can also provide a bit of added leverage at the desired points.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 16, 2013, 07:40:39 AM
i always do them standing. I do not even wear a belt either. will be doing them today

i do not wear any assists when training anymore... no straps, gloves, belts, wraps, whatever... just me, some chalk and the iron


I used to always do them standing and then I started sitting.  Last week I went back to standing ones and preferred them over sitting down.

why?


I've done both, though lately, I've done them seated.
IMO, both offer advantages:

Seated is a bit more forgiving on the back and can keep the form stricter.

Standing recruits more stabilizer muscles, and the legs can be used to extend sets past positive failure by employing a a push-press if so desired. Minor adjustments in posture can also provide a bit of added leverage at the desired points.

I do not find any issues with my back but i focus on not arching back... i try to keep a good spinal alignment when doing them

and you're right about how easy it is to use a bit of 'english' when standing... IMO that's one of the most compelling reasons to do them that way


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Montague on January 16, 2013, 11:38:20 AM
and you're right about how easy it is to use a bit of 'english' when standing... IMO that's one of the most compelling reasons to do them that way


Sure! You can "self-spot" with forced reps, negatives, even doing the push-press, which is a legitimate lift by itself.

I believe that the overhead press was eliminated from some competitions around the 50's because guys were using so much back arching, that the lift almost became a standing bench press! :D
I think Funk told me that.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Henda on January 16, 2013, 12:04:30 PM
Standing is much better. Im stuck with the seated version at the minute, my home gym is in my shed and the ceiling is only a few inches higher than head height.
Even had to chop several inches off my power rack to fit it in ::)
Fuck a cant wait to move ha.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Montague on January 16, 2013, 12:16:06 PM
Standing is much better. Im stuck with the seated version at the minute, my home gym is in my shed and the ceiling is only a few inches higher than head height.
Even had to chop several inches off my power rack to fit it in ::)
Fuck a cant wait to move ha.


When the weather gets nicer, take that barbell outside, load it up, and do some cleans & presses.
You can practice hang cleans now to get in shape for Spring! 8)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 16, 2013, 12:23:58 PM

Sure! You can "self-spot" with forced reps, negatives, even doing the push-press, which is a legitimate lift by itself.

I believe that the overhead press was eliminated from some competitions around the 50's because guys were using so much back arching, that the lift almost became a standing bench press! :D
I think Funk told me that.
the guy who did a picture perfect 390 press was said to be the biggest offender to the leaning or arching press.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 16, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
as far as i know the press was eliminated for the 1972 olympics and it became a two lift event. judging the press was said to be too hard. ;D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on January 16, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
I love the standing shoulder presses. It's funny how many people bitch about how they can't get their shoulders to grow but refuse to press standing up.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 16, 2013, 12:35:05 PM

When the weather gets nicer, take that barbell outside, load it up, and do some cleans & presses.
You can practice hang cleans now to get in shape for Spring! 8)
you are so correct about hang cleans, my last shoulder workout i did them and the fact you clean the bar fatigues your forearms, biceps, shoulders, mainly front delts...i had to use less weight because normally i take the weight off my squat stands at shoulder height.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Henda on January 16, 2013, 01:01:10 PM

When the weather gets nicer, take that barbell outside, load it up, and do some cleans & presses.
You can practice hang cleans now to get in shape for Spring! 8)

I thought about doing a few sets outside every couple of weeks to stay in the groove, set to be minus 8 tonite with heavy snow, so gonna be a few months yet.

I have always found the clean part not to cause much trouble, had no squat rack back in the day and have to clean and half push press the weight to get it on the shoulders, then off again. Used to fear it immensely ha


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 16, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
 :D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 16, 2013, 01:13:55 PM
:D
these are how my stands look pic is of somebody elses. yorkies. ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 16, 2013, 01:15:31 PM
I love the standing shoulder presses. It's funny how many people bitch about how they can't get their shoulders to grow but refuse to press standing up.
bread and butter of shoulder training


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 16, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
these are how my stands look pic is of somebody elses. yorkies. ;D ;D ;D
there's my stands, being used as a rack for other stuff.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 16, 2013, 01:19:36 PM
like the sword funky  :)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: B_B_C on January 16, 2013, 01:21:33 PM
Shoulder pressing while seated is inwittingly (or perhaps intentionally) a cheat movement as much of the force transmitted through the arms to the shoulder is taken by the lower back and pressed in to the back of the seat. You may be able to drive more weight up while seated but is it you or the seat in the way a smith machine allows you press more than free weights as the lateral support work is removed


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on January 16, 2013, 02:44:32 PM

Will use a PR when doing overhead presses.  Include doing quarter and half reps partials. Push presses (bar resting on the heels of the palm) give a more direct inline power surge with the wrist/forearms. With a regular grip (bar resting on the palms & thumbs wrapped around) the bar/weight is off center of the line of power.. Some heavy bencher's also use this style, bar resting on the heels of the hand. The jerk press is another superior version of the overhead press.  

With standard pressing, don't want to lock the knees, but have a slight break in them, or else the small of the back gets undo pressure. For strict BB'ing, pre-exhaust front raises with BB presses. Even SS'ing up-right rows with overhead pressing.

 For me, one of the better exercises for cleans (and Hi-pulls) is doing them with the knees on the floor (usually folder mat). Seems to develop the upper portion of the power pull quite well. Also pressing from this position.

The side press and sea-saws are my two favorite DB shoulder movements. Good Luck  


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 16, 2013, 02:50:17 PM
Use DB's next time. :-*


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: funk51 on January 17, 2013, 11:39:23 AM
Use DB's next time. :-*
:D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Overload on January 17, 2013, 11:51:48 AM
For some reason when i do BB overhead press sitting down it hurts my rotators to the point where i can't do them very often.  I think i can get into a more natural position standing up and i don't have any problems pressing heavy weight when i'm standing.  I don't see many people doing them standing these days and I'm not sure why, but i think it's one of the best overall movements someone can use if they want to be truly strong.


8)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 17, 2013, 05:48:42 PM
With the barbell when I get to a certain weight I get a shooting pain in my left trap, like a rubber band snapping. Doesn't hurt after, only during the rep.

Don't get it with db's.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 17, 2013, 06:57:35 PM
With the barbell when I get to a certain weight I get a shooting pain in my left trap, like a rubber band snapping. Doesn't hurt after, only during the rep.

Don't get it with db's.

interesting

i haven't had an issue

and i am loving them


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 17, 2013, 07:29:41 PM
Still do barbell, I just know what's coming up after 205. ;D
Come to think of it, I don't think I have that issue doing bbell seated..... I'll try those tomorrow instead and get back here.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on January 17, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
A shooting pain anywhere (traps, etc etc, etc,) will usually suggest a  nerve being inflamed or a blockage; the nerve  is not following it's normal path. A snapping feeling can be a little more serious. There may be  more of a noticible weakness on the left side of the pressing muscles for Chaos. Massage or even acupuncture may help if the problem advances.

Even turning the head from left to right (slowly, trying for more of a ROM each rep..12-15 reps or so) may releive the nerve stress right before pressing. DB's call upon a different set of mechanics, as when using DB's, rather than a BB, during a heavy set of benches. DB's seem to ofter overall less shoulder joint problems, in either case.

A more serious event might be a start of a slight muscle tear/rupture.  Try keeping the trap/shoulder area warm & covered while pressing. If a knot develops, the problem will need attention.

Yes, standing presses will offer a more natural position for overhead pressing for most guy's. It's the different set of mechanics and the lower body envolvement in any lift done overhead.Good Luck.

Side Bar: one of the better movements is cleaning a pair of heavy DB's (from the floor..much lower start than a pair of 45's on a bar)) and jerk pressing them overhead.  Any where from 6 to 12 reps. Never see that excellent mass building exercise much any more.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 17, 2013, 08:01:44 PM
A shooting pain anywhere (traps, etc etc, etc,) will usually suggest a  nerve being inflamed or a blockage; the nerve  is not following it's normal path. A snapping feeling can be a little more serious. There may be  more of a noticible weakness on the left side of the pressing muscles for Chaos. Massage or even acupuncture may help if the problem advances.

Even turning the head from left to right (slowly, trying for more of a ROM each rep..12-15 reps or so) may releive the nerve stress right before pressing. DB's call upon a different set of mechanics, as when using DB's, rather than a BB, during a heavy set of benches. DB's seem to ofter overall less shoulder joint problems, in either case.

A more serious event might be a start of a slight muscle tear/rupture.  Try keeping the trap/shoulder area warm & covered while pressing. If a knot develops, the problem will need attention.

Yes, standing presses will offer a more natural position for overhead pressing for most guy's. It's the different set of mechanics and the lower body envolvement in any lift done overhead.Good Luck.

Side Bar: one of the better movements is cleaning a pair of heavy DB's (from the floor..much lower start than a pair of 45's on a bar)) and jerk pressing them overhead.  Any where from 6 to 12 reps. Never see that excellent mass building exercise much any more.


i do clean/press with kettlebells... i go up to my 100s (i have 25lbs, 50lbs, 100lbs and 1x200lbs (for swings))


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Meso_z on January 18, 2013, 04:26:34 AM
I've been lifting for 20 years. In all those years I've never done standing barbell presses. I've done thrusters and clean/jerk and snatch, etc. and obviously I've done several variations of seated shoulder presses.

2 weeks ago I decided to try the standing version after watching big Lou do them in pumping iron. Well. I'm in love. Not with Lou of course. With standing barbell shoulder presses.

I can manage 245 for 8-10 seated but standing I struggled with 135 in the first week. This week my last set was with 185 for 10 and it was awesome (brutal).

The movement is difficult. It requires a lot of total body strength to manage strict overhead presses. Best of all cheating for 1 or 2 more reps is pretty easy (thruster style).

Anybody do these?
ive been doing them last couple weeks,they are hard to do but they feel great when you do them.you feel the 'power'.. :)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 18, 2013, 05:24:50 AM
ive been doing them last couple weeks,they are hard to do but they feel great when you do them.you feel the 'power'.. :)

I agree. The movement feels macho as hell.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Meso_z on January 18, 2013, 07:50:57 AM
I agree. The movement feels macho as hell.
;-D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 18, 2013, 05:15:26 PM
Did seated barbell and standing db presses today and didn't experience that "snap" in my trap ???


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 18, 2013, 07:19:59 PM
Did seated barbell and standing db presses today and didn't experience that "snap" in my trap ???

the power of WOOO


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Roger Bacon on January 18, 2013, 08:54:45 PM
I've been lifting for 20 years.

 :o :o :o

You should have told us you were so old.............


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Roger Bacon on January 18, 2013, 08:57:07 PM
the guy who did a picture perfect 390 press was said to be the biggest offender to the leaning or arching press.

I don't know what the problem is, but if I don't arch/lean back slightly I'll fall frontwards? ???


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 19, 2013, 06:46:04 AM
:o :o :o

You should have told us you were so old.............

34


I don't know what the problem is, but if I don't arch/lean back slightly I'll fall frontwards? ???

bend your knees and stabilize your core?


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: dj181 on January 19, 2013, 07:48:37 AM
Did seated barbell and standing db presses today and didn't experience that "snap" in my trap ???

just curious, how much weight do you use on the db press?


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 19, 2013, 07:57:11 AM
just curious, how much weight do you use on the db press?
Yesterday did them after seated and went up to 90's standing. Average I guess, pressing is not my strong point.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on January 19, 2013, 10:32:28 AM
Chaos: notice how the power of subtle suggestions works and by magic you trap problem went away. Working out can be just as much a mental game as  physical one. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

90's are a respectable weight. Getting to 120, if serious about DB pressing, is usually possible. Prefer one arm at a time for myself. Will brace the other free arm against something solid. If more guy's concentrated on overhead pressing, rather than the overrated (personal view)  bench press, there would be many more 300LB + BB front presses. And much more shoulder mass.

The press behind the neck is also a mass builder and can build up to near same weight as a front press. Though this exercise is not for everyone. Guy's may have shoulder leverage problems with this movement. So might take a bit of caution if new to this one. Having the grip too wide, lowering the bar too far behind the back and trying to rush the weight (adding weight before really ready for it) are some of the causes that could result in problems. Good Luck.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on January 21, 2013, 09:38:42 AM
If not feeling stable, like your going to fall forward (or backward) just place one foot slightly ahead of the other, or even behind, for some.  Seems to give a more solid position when overhead pressing.  Can also try a little wider foot stance.

Once getting use to overhead pressing a better feel of balance should develop. Have a slight break (bend) in the knees will work for most. Try not looking up when pressing, but straight ahead. This can upset the basic balance for a few guy's. Good Luck.

Side Bar: The original military press was for the heels to be together,knees locked, back ramrod straight, the head remaining motionless and a complete lockout at the top.Lowering the bar down again was a slow and controlled effort. The only motion would be the arms pressing upwards and than reversing that downward. Hence the name Military Press. Like to see a few Pro's do it that way.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 21, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWRhB1ILPw


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Straw Man on January 21, 2013, 07:43:20 PM
I started doing these lat last year - both in front and behind the neck

It was a humbling experience to say the least

I'm going to try standing DB's sometime soon (something Larry Scott apparently liked a lot)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Roger Bacon on January 21, 2013, 08:28:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWRhB1ILPw

That's about how I do it, is that considered leaning back?

How much weight is that? ???


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Montague on January 21, 2013, 08:35:02 PM
I started doing these lat last year - both in front and behind the neck

It was a humbling experience to say the least

I'm going to try standing DB's sometime soon (something Larry Scott apparently liked a lot)


Larry seemed to do something almost like an "Arnold Press." He only pressed the bells through about the middle three-fifths of the movement, while squeezing the scapula on the way up - this caused his elbows to travel back at the top.

If you've never seen him do them, I can probably send you a clip. There's footage of him teaching the movement on his 1980's seminar.
Larry credits this style of pressing as a major factor in his impressive delt development.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 21, 2013, 08:47:17 PM
That's about how I do it, is that considered leaning back?

How much weight is that? ???

225, then 245... Lou was strong



Larry seemed to do something almost like an "Arnold Press." He only pressed the bells through about the middle three-fifths of the movement, while squeezing the scapula on the way up - this caused his elbows to travel back at the top.

If you've never seen him do them, I can probably send you a clip. There's footage of him teaching the movement on his 1980's seminar.
Larry credits this style of pressing as a major factor in his impressive delt development.

tried those years ago... made my shoulders ache... and not in a good way


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 22, 2013, 03:47:56 AM

Larry seemed to do something almost like an "Arnold Press." He only pressed the bells through about the middle three-fifths of the movement, while squeezing the scapula on the way up - this caused his elbows to travel back at the top.

If you've never seen him do them, I can probably send you a clip. There's footage of him teaching the movement on his 1980's seminar.
Larry credits this style of pressing as a major factor in his impressive delt development.
Larry scotts variation is much better in my opinion, the so called "Arnold press" i do not like. The scott variation keeps your deltoids working and are kinder to you shoulders. Itīs not always the longer range of motion thatīs better. Larry scottīs hit the sweet spot nice.. superset these with barbell press and you will feel it(with lighter weight but the muscles will be worked hard). I now use Barbell press and Dumbbell press in my shoulder workout as i feel holding your arms further back than with Barbell press(as Dumbbells allow) it hits your Deltoids more central. Good post Monty..you have just given me a new idea for my next superset in my shoulder workout !!! will let you know  ;D


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on January 22, 2013, 10:44:45 AM
Doing the standard BB press behind the neck will insure that the shoulders are forced into being inline with the actual pressing muscle of the deltoids. If doing this with a DB's, than warmup the shoulders with just a empty bar first (press behind the neck). That do the DB version. Keep the mind on the position of the elbows and that they are kept back/inline with the body, even when they are overhead.

The Cuban Press is a excellent delt exercise, which can be akin to the above DB in line with the shoulder exercise. Greatly overlook by most BB'ers, but not by athlete's. Might find a video that can explain the movement fully. This exercise (and forms of) are used in rehap medical centers all over.

Got the Arnold , "W", Scott, Gironda, side press, see saw, alternate, one arm, etc, etc, etc. The only difference between a lot of these DB movements is the hand/grip position and the path of the overhead motion. Pick your own poison because the variety out them should favor anyone. Just learn to do each one the correct way. Good Luck.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 22, 2013, 11:06:23 AM
Press behind neck is not an exercise for most Trainers and the DB press also in the neutral (Hammer grip) hits the Delts very well without shoulder stress. This is stressed by most sport Doctors.
http://www.fitflex.com/behindneckpress.html


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 22, 2013, 11:13:46 AM
I actually got my Bursitis from a behind the neck movement...behind the neck chins...


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 22, 2013, 07:14:49 PM
i did these again today and loved them more... the only thing i worry about now is scratching the hell out of my chin on the way down (my olympic bars are very rough in the middle)  :)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: chaos on January 23, 2013, 07:50:21 AM
i did these again today and loved them more... the only thing i worry about now is scratching the hell out of my chin on the way down (my olympic bars are very rough in the middle)  :)
I raped my face a few times doing push presses.....nothing like driving 200+ lbs into your chin.  :(


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Overload on January 23, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
I raped my face a few times doing push presses.....nothing like driving 200+ lbs into your chin.  :(

haha

Same here, busted my chin/lip open a few times. 


8)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Straw Man on January 23, 2013, 03:16:11 PM
I did Standing PBN's today and they felt pretty good (much better than seated PBN and also much better than standing front presses)

Weights were nothing to write home about but plenty of room for improvement.

Started with the empty bar and then did a few lighter warmup sets then 135 for 12 and 2 sets of 8 with 145

alternated with front Chins



Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on January 23, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
I did Standing PBN's today and they felt pretty good (much better than seated PBN and also much better than standing front presses)

Weights were nothing to write home about but plenty of room for improvement.

Started with the empty bar and then did a few lighter warmup sets then 135 for 12 and 2 sets of 8 with 145

alternated with front Chins


weights are irrelevant... it's about feeling the muscles doing the work, sounds like you got that. supersetting with chins sounds brutal and awesome


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on January 23, 2013, 07:07:43 PM

weights are irrelevant... it's about feeling the muscles doing the work, sounds like you got that. supersetting with chins sounds brutal and awesome
THIS;;; FEEL THE MUSCLE . feel it working and use your mind +muscle connection.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 05, 2013, 06:15:15 AM
Hit these again today... i made sure to warm up really well first... getting the start of a pump going in my delts... I felt stronger this week and managed to press 225 for 6 on my third set... i went back to 185 for a last set of 10 +2 cheat reps...

unreal way to start the day


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 05, 2013, 06:24:05 AM
Hit these again today... i made sure to warm up really well first... getting the start of a pump going in my delts... I felt stronger this week and managed to press 225 for 6 on my third set... i went back to 185 for a last set of 10 +2 cheat reps...

unreal way to start the day
thatīs a good weight Wooo...


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 05, 2013, 07:24:34 AM
thatīs a good weight Wooo...

felt pretty good... not gonna try to go heavier until i can get to 12 reps with 225... will start doing rest-pause on my 3rd set next week


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: dj181 on February 05, 2013, 08:22:22 AM
Hit these again today... i made sure to warm up really well first... getting the start of a pump going in my delts... I felt stronger this week and managed to press 225 for 6 on my third set... i went back to 185 for a last set of 10 +2 cheat reps...

unreal way to start the day

very impressive ma man PROPS


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 05, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
very impressive ma man PROPS


thanks dude... i'm noticing that a lot of this movement is FORM... i was leaning back at the beginning... made me weaker, instead i focus on looking straight ahead and pressing in front of my face and then up and over the middle of my head


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on February 05, 2013, 09:07:43 PM
Told this story before..long time ago: Me and a Samoan bro were doing 320-330 push presses.  Nothing too serious, only for 4 to 6 reps. Than did 305-315 for the press behind the neck for , maybe, 7-8 reps. My bud never was into overhead presses  before, doing mostly benches, This was from a PR and we were in that rare lifting zone that day. He must have weighted 330, or so, and was doing bwt presses without much trouble.

 Every BB'er/lifter should be able to do at least one bwt overhead presses. With the push press, a slight knee jerk and a top lockout is encouraged. I weighted 230, or a little less, at the time. Were both over 6'2, so considering the distance traveled with the BB..fairly OK. I really like the press behind the neck, as very effective movement and delt width builder. Add upright row and you got a very effective shoulder scheme.

In overhead pressing, fix on a point just above  eye level, try not looking up or down. Of course most can jerk much heavier weight overhead, but this is when the confidence factor enters. Olympic lifters are the absolute tops on these overhead lifts, because they practice the overhead lifts. Seen a few women Olympic lifter outclass and out lift men. No doubt, most BB'ers.

If trainee's spent more serious time doing presses, there would be a lot more 300lb+ lifts. Always thought the overhead press (including DB's) was a much better mass builder for the shoulder girdle. Also though that dips (in any form) was superior to the bench for chest/pec, shoulder and tricep development. WOOO has potential to hit 300 (for reps) without too much trouble, within  the end of the year. Good Luck

Side Bar: A  friends cousin, who never lifted a day in his life, cleaned 205 (that's what was on the bar at that time) no style..just powered up) and pressed it 4 or 5 times without too much effort. Then he grabbed his 40, took a drink, and did a few reps of cheat curls with the same weight. Just that some are just naturally strong..the genetic thing again.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 06, 2013, 05:16:23 AM
Genetics are a huge part in basic lifting. I was 14 when I first bench pressed and Olympic bar. I got up to 205 for a single. Day 1. No bullshit. Was always strong. Learning how to lift with proper form added to my base.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on February 06, 2013, 02:27:16 PM
WOOO be the man. Also had a natural advantage in benching, though never was a first choice exercise for me.. My two cousins, and me, all pushed 400+ while still in high school. But than again, that really never impressed me, that's just what we did.

Genetics gives a good advantage, but so does a basic blue collar work ethic. Blood, sweat and hard work, along with well planned training, can give impressive result to even a guy with average genetics. Lot of guy's will be critical of successful BB'ers (or lifters), saying that it's generics, but maybe just plain discipline, sacrifice and understanding of their body and how to best make superior gains and what works for them only.

Sorry to say, most men who lift may never understand these concepts. Most look the same, year in and year out. Jumping from one super duper workout plan to the next, never gaining much in size or strength. Never even coming close to their true potential. Training is a simple process, with brief and to the point training in any workout. Stick with a new program at least 6 to 8 weeks (first couple of weeks are generally a break in period). Golden rule; KISS. Good Luck.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: oldtimer1 on February 06, 2013, 03:18:11 PM
Hate to beat a dead horse but everything is relative concerning the range of motion. Simple physics and common sense shows that a weight moved further is more work. It seems everyone does half rep shoulder presses with dumbbells or barbells. I was using 135 reps touching the bar to my upper chest while fairly upright doing military presses. My buddy likes the smith machine and only goes low enough to have his upper arms parallel which is a half rep in my opinion. He disagrees. He had 4 45lbs on the machine. I don't know what the mechanism weighs on the track. I tried to imitate his style exactly pumping out reps with the 4 45lbs and he said I'm surprised you use such a light weight with a free barbell. I just shook my head.

It's the same with a bench press. Pull your feet back as close as you can to your head on the floor. Twist upright with a crazy arch inflating your chest. Use a fairly wide grip and press a barbell under a shortened range. I'm 5'8" and my friend who benches 400lbs. plus with a bench shirt uses that style in the gym and at bench contests. I estimate his press is about 12" from chest to lock out. I'm 5'8" and when I bench I measured close to 24 inches of travel.

If you want to get truly strong think of how you can make an exercise harder for your muscles not easier.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 06, 2013, 03:33:42 PM
I think people with little knowledge always go back to old school workouts and do not embrace modern thinking...they reapeat the same advice over and over again because quite frankly they are at a still stand and do not know how to come forwards. They also have not or will not learn how to train with maximum efficiency and most important to train safely. I am a fan of old school but i am a "THINKING" Bodybuilder and i will adapt to what my Body needs...not what a "Guru" says.... ;)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on February 06, 2013, 06:10:34 PM
A midget standing on a giant's shoulders can see much further than the giant.

I think this applies very well to training philosophy. The people that came before no matter how knowledgeable and intelligent, are inevitably limited by their time periods and the information available at that time. Those that come after them have the advantage of being able to build on the knowledge of their predecessors as well as their own experience, and so the cycle continues.



 


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 06, 2013, 06:24:50 PM
A midget standing on a giant's shoulders can see much further than the giant.

I think this applies very well to training philosophy. The people that came before no matter how knowledgeable and intelligent, are inevitably limited by their time periods and the information available at that time. Those that come after them have the advantage of being able to build on the knowledge of their predecessors as well as their own experience, and so the cycle continues.



 
well put and understood. make sure you stay on the training threads because i think you have lots to offer ..


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on February 06, 2013, 06:52:15 PM
Yes, agree with OldTimer1. Always make an exercise harder, allowing the muscle to adapt, and progress will usually follow. Also agree the ROM is relative to each of us, as are muscle inserts, bone leverage/length, etc. All points placed under the mechanics (physics) of individual lifters. Considering the height/travel of a lift, as a short vs long arm person, can also become important.

If anyone thinks that Old School workouts means only heavy compound exercises, including full body workout, they are mistaken. Systems that have been around for a generation, or so, are SS, tri, quad  and giant sets, TUT, Rest Pause,drop sets, extended sets, moderate pump sets, negatives, 21's, half reps, GVT, etc. Guess you might call these modern thinking, because most top BB'ers follow these protocols every day of the week. Those BB'ers, back in he 60's & 70's weren't too bad either.  

Even the very old 5X5 system (long before Bill Star made it popular) is still used today, with good results. Old school or "modern thinking" are pretty much the same, only the label has been changed. Now I plan on doing some old school standing presses to get modern results. Good Luck.






Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on February 06, 2013, 07:57:25 PM
     JPM I think you're missing the point here. I don't think anyone implied that the "old school" methods don't work. What I am saying is that if you don't try build on something that is already there you are missing the point of basic human progression. The KISS principle is very catchy, but it can halt progress and foreward thinking. When the Soviet Union was dominating the Olympic games, they weren't re-hashing old 5x5 routines. They came up with new methods which most would think fall out of the realm of the KISS principle, but they were able to advance human performance to new levels.
      And just like getting an Olympic athlete to the podium might require some foreward thinking and complexity, it may take the same type of thought process for a 35 year old guy working 60 hours a week with stress levels through the roof to take his squat from 405 to 500.

      If a person thinks they have this whole training thing all figured out, they have stopped trying to learn. Nothing wrong with that, but if you decided to stop learning you shouldn't aggressively keep teaching at the same time.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 06, 2013, 07:58:32 PM
Hate to beat a dead horse but everything is relative concerning the range of motion. Simple physics and common sense shows that a weight moved further is more work. It seems everyone does half rep shoulder presses with dumbbells or barbells. I was using 135 reps touching the bar to my upper chest while fairly upright doing military presses. My buddy likes the smith machine and only goes low enough to have his upper arms parallel which is a half rep in my opinion. He disagrees. He had 4 45lbs on the machine. I don't know what the mechanism weighs on the track. I tried to imitate his style exactly pumping out reps with the 4 45lbs and he said I'm surprised you use such a light weight with a free barbell. I just shook my head.

It's the same with a bench press. Pull your feet back as close as you can to your head on the floor. Twist upright with a crazy arch inflating your chest. Use a fairly wide grip and press a barbell under a shortened range. I'm 5'8" and my friend who benches 400lbs. plus with a bench shirt uses that style in the gym and at bench contests. I estimate his press is about 12" from chest to lock out. I'm 5'8" and when I bench I measured close to 24 inches of travel.

If you want to get truly strong think of how you can make an exercise harder for your muscles not easier.


horse ain't dead... you're bang on

i like strength... but with form and a full ROM to get the benefits


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on February 06, 2013, 11:14:56 PM
Yev33:  Actually I understood that there was no dis against old school or anything else. It was admitted that it does work, in what you were referring too.  Old school can be a combo of just about any training protocol, because just about every thing has been attempted to gain size & strength. Most anything can work in one form or another, depending on the person using it. Seems always to be a new, can't miss workout program every 6 month or so. Finding out there really a rehash of a long ago forgotten idea. There are a couple of new approaches to gaining muscle & size, being researched and tested at present. (the 60's and 70's were great times for newer training ideas, a core of a lot of present workout programs).

The K.I.S.S. principle denoted that any training system need not be too complex in it's approach, that's all it suggest. It's not a program or set workout protocol. Simply put, need not have 6 exercises, for a targeted body part, when 2 or 3 can accomplish the same results. Or training 5 to 6 times a week, when 3 times a week may prove more rewarding. This over kill factor in BB'ing/lifting, is just wasted effort. If any one believes that more is better and works wonders for them...than God speed to them, they found their way to success. Let's face it, in reality, training to make progressive gains is pretty simple stuff, if you understand the body and give it ample recovery time.

That metaphor of standing on the shoulders of giants (or pioneers) is a suitable one. We all learn and gain from the experience of other, past and present. Having an open mind and exchanging ideas works wonders. Never know why some people get so emotionally bent out of shape if some  may disagree with them.  Good Luck


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 07, 2013, 03:01:14 AM
    JPM I think you're missing the point here. I don't think anyone implied that the "old school" methods don't work. What I am saying is that if you don't try build on something that is already there you are missing the point of basic human progression. The KISS principle is very catchy, but it can halt progress and foreward thinking. When the Soviet Union was dominating the Olympic games, they weren't re-hashing old 5x5 routines. They came up with new methods which most would think fall out of the realm of the KISS principle, but they were able to advance human performance to new levels.
      And just like getting an Olympic athlete to the podium might require some foreward thinking and complexity, it may take the same type of thought process for a 35 year old guy working 60 hours a week with stress levels through the roof to take his squat from 405 to 500.

      If a person thinks they have this whole training thing all figured out, they have stopped trying to learn. Nothing wrong with that, but if you decided to stop learning you shouldn't aggressively keep teaching at the same time.
THIS... ;)


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 07, 2013, 03:41:49 AM
THIS... ;)

Bah
You'll agree
With anyone
Who disagrees
With JPM.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 07, 2013, 04:16:26 AM
Bah
You'll agree
With anyone
Who disagrees
With JPM.
no no...i just hear this "KISS" advice over and over again.... everyone trains how they feel. lost count of how often the man writes this. I agree with his post because he is 100% correct and i think itīs about time there was some fresh advice in here. wooo you canīt make progress always going by what guys like AJ said 30 years ago. you use and make your own lifting bags Wooo because YOU get results and YOU know how your body adapts.. NO "Guru" can tell you this wooo.. Krank is another guy on here who trains HIS way...take what you need and disgard what does not suite you...get the point ?


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 07, 2013, 05:10:48 AM
fair enough... but all things being equal, KISS is a good place to start and a good foundation to go back to as needed

IMO


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Donny on February 07, 2013, 05:38:26 AM
fair enough... but all things being equal, KISS is a good place to start and a good foundation to go back to as needed

IMO
Ok wooo no probs...


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on February 07, 2013, 07:24:24 AM
         WOOO, there is nothing wrong with the KISS principle and it's actually sound advice. BUT.... you have to consider your audience (this isn't intended at you). When you have someone come on here who has been training for 3 months and is looking to overcomplicate things, yes KISS is great advice. But when you have people here with a lot of productive training experience, 5,10,20,30 years, and you tell that to them over and over, it sounds extremely condescending. I guess it can work if you are proven expert in the training field and everyone knows who you are. Even a picture or a video to at least show people that you yourself have been applying your own advice with results that speak for themselves. But when you are an anonymous poster on a forum that doesn't go over so well.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 07, 2013, 08:10:14 AM
        WOOO, there is nothing wrong with the KISS principle and it's actually sound advice. BUT.... you have to consider your audience (this isn't intended at you). When you have someone come on here who has been training for 3 months and is looking to overcomplicate things, yes KISS is great advice. But when you have people here with a lot of productive training experience, 5,10,20,30 years, and you tell that to them over and over, it sounds extremely condescending. I guess it can work if you are proven expert in the training field and everyone knows who you are. Even a picture or a video to at least show people that you yourself have been applying your own advice with results that speak for themselves. But when you are an anonymous poster on a forum that doesn't go over so well.

Meh. I'm relatively anonymous. I live by the "ya take some, ya leave some" principle.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on February 07, 2013, 09:54:19 AM
   There is nothing wrong with anonymous, people participate in an online forum any way they choose.
But when someone always has advice and never any questions for other members, and it comes off in a condescending tone for multiple people reading it, the individual comes off as a know-it-all expert, an anonymous know-it-all expert.   


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: jpm101 on February 07, 2013, 12:14:34 PM
Sorry I hurt the feeling of some of the more sensitive members of GB. If they would just read (and not read into) what my post say, perhaps things would be different.  I don't always stress K.I.S.S. (but it can be a good policy) or anything else. No matter if I did, make up our own minds, not what I or anyone else may suggest. I have said this over and over again, for many years now.

Rereading Yev33's post: always been anonymous on GB. Am a very private person and don't need 15 minutes of fame, or shame, on a web site. Hard to understand for a lot of people who post on here. My main pursuit in life is not to have any deep personal information or pictures of myself on the internet or anywhere else. I know some who are attention whores can be puzzled by that. I have no photos of myself, during workouts., or will ever pose for any. I train at a semi private gym. And other times at college gyms (a few..I travel a lot at certain time of the year). Non do I have any photos of men training or in a near state of undress, while working out or posing.

Never claimed to be any expert. But do have hands on experience and have come in contact with many people more knowledge than myself, with regards to sports medicine and training expertise. Always time to learn, though thing are still pretty basic in BB'ing/lifting. The law of cause, recovery and effect when it comes to training.

To my man WOOO: Yes, ya take some, ya leave some. And it's nobody's business but your own.  

For people who have formed a dislike for me, or even a grudge: Oh Well, do what you want..being low key, I don't care either way. It's your life, dislike anybody or anything you want. But do try to understand the person before hand.

Good Luck.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Montague on February 07, 2013, 09:14:54 PM
Some folks come here looking for information and help.
Others come here to offer it.
Some - like me - engage in both, but neither can exist without the other.

The diversity is what makes this board productive, and no member should ever be put down for his/her contributions; whatever they may be, provided they constructively fall into one of the categories above.



Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: Yev33 on February 07, 2013, 09:22:58 PM
Some folks come here looking for information and help.
Others come here to offer it.
Some - like me - engage in both, but neither can exist without the other.

The diversity is what makes this board productive, and no member should ever be put down for his/her contributions; whatever they may be, provided they constructively fall into one of the categories above.



Thank you for posting this and putting things back into perspective. I agree 100%.

WOOO, I apologize for taking your thread off track.


Title: Re: Old school standing shoulder presses
Post by: WOOO on February 08, 2013, 03:30:56 AM
Thank you for posting this and putting things back into perspective. I agree 100%.

WOOO, I apologize for taking your thread off track.

Dude. This is Getbig. No apologies required ever.

Fuck yeah.