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Title: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: loco on January 30, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Published: February 17, 2009

A man who founded a Muslim American television station to help fight Muslim stereotypes is to appear on Wednesday in a suburban Buffalo court on charges that he decapitated his wife last week.

The man, Muzzammil Hassan, 44, went to a police station in Orchard Park, N.Y., on Thursday to report that his wife, Aasiya Zubair Hassan, was dead, Chief Andrew Benz said on Tuesday. Mr. Hassan told the police that her body could be found in the nearby office of the television station, Bridges TV. The police later arrested him on charges of second-degree murder, Chief Benz said.

On Feb. 6, Ms. Hassan, 37, filed for divorce and obtained an order of protection against Mr. Hassan, Chief Benz said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18behead.html?_r=0



Title: Re: Upstate Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on January 30, 2013, 06:12:17 PM
Making retarded desperate threads again are we? Honor killings are not allowed in islam but endorsed in the bible.

Wait I can play this game, hi we are in 2013.

Speaking of 2012

Justice Story: Killer priest murders nun in chapel sacristy, leaves demonic stab pattern over her heart  
Rev. Gerald Robinson slays Sister Margaret Ann Pahl on Holy Saturday in Toledo

Comments (60)
BY DAVID J. KRAJICEK / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

PUBLISHED: SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2012, 12:35 AM
UPDATED: SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2012, 12:35 AM

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1162925.1348358144!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/justice23n-4-web.jpg)

Rev. Gerald Robinson was convicted of killing Sister Margaret Ann Pahl 26 years after her murder -- after investigators looking into child sex abuse allegations against Toledo priests reopened the case of the slain nun.
The nun's killer left behind a pointed message.


Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, 71, was murdered on the morning before Easter in 1980, an ungodly act on Holy Saturday. Her body was found in the chapel sacristy at Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio.

She had been confronted by her killer as she prepared for that day’s services. Pahl was choked to death’s door, jabbed mercilessly with a letter opener, and then sexually violated. She was found with an altar cloth shrouding her torso.

It was a ritual murder with hallmarks of pathological rage.

Among 31 stab wounds, nine punctures over her heart formed the outline of an inverted Crucifix, a demonic symbol. She had been stripped below the waist and defiled with a cross.

The homicide was unthinkable. Who would do such a thing to an elderly nun?

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1162926!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/justice23n-2-copy.jpg)

Sister Margaret Ann Pahl's defiled body was found covered by an altar cloth in the sacristy at Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio, in 1980.


On April 8, 1980, mourners attended Pahl’s funeral Mass in Fremont, Ohio. During his homily, the Rev. Jerome Swiatecki, assistant chaplain at Mercy Hospital, called the murder “not only blasphemous but patently absurd.”

Seated nearby, the priest’s co-celebrant — the Rev. Gerald Robinson, Mercy’s head chaplain — nodded in agreement.
Pahl had dedicated her life to her Catholic faith.

Born to an Ohio farm family, she was 19 when she joined the Sisters of Mercy, an order recognized for its nursing. She became a registered nurse and spent 50 years working in Catholic hospitals, mostly as an administrator.

The petite nun was known for her meticulousness, and she expected the same from subordinates. Those who did not measure up were subjected to her glowering wrath. Some complained that the bristly taskmaster treated colleagues like third-graders.

With her hearing failing as she reached her 60s, Pahl was assigned to Mercy Hospital in Toledo, an hour east of her hometown, to ease into retirement. She lived with about 20 other nursing nuns in a convent on the hospital’s top floor.

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1162924!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/justice23n-6-copy.jpg)
The scene of the crime: A chapel sacristy in Mercy Hospital in Toledo, Ohio, where Sister Margaret Ann Pahl was killed in 1980.


Pahl was Mercy’s sacristan, the caretaker of its two chapels. Her duties included everything from overseeing cleaning to preparing hosts and vestments for daily masses.

She hadn’t mellowed with age.

“She was very, very strict,” housekeeper Shirley Lucas told the Toledo Blade. “Things had to be done a certain way.”
But her fussiness hardly seemed a rational motivation for murder.

Police questioned scores of witnesses and potential suspects, including hundreds of hospital staffers, her fellow Sisters of Mercy, and the Catholic clerics who worked with her.

But Toledo police said they could find none of the physical evidence — fingerprints, fabric threads, secondary blood — that often turns up at murder scenes. As months and years passed without an arrest, the shocking crime faded from the front pages and sank ever deeper in the homicide squad files.

It might have been buried forever except for a bit of crime kismet.

In 2003, at the height of the Catholic child-abuse scandal, a woman reported that she had been subjected to a childhood of ritualized sex assault by Toledo priests. She named Gerald Robinson, Mercy’s chaplain in 1980, as one of her abusers.

An investigation of that allegation went nowhere, but prosecutors took a fresh look at the Pahl case — dormant for two decades — when they discovered that Robinson had been the chief suspect in the murder.

Although it was not made public in 1980, detectives had found the letter opener used to stab the nun in Robinson’s office. He had been interrogated and given two lie-detector tests.


(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1162923!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/justice23n-7-copy.jpg)

ANDY MORRISON/POOL

The weapon in the murder of sister Margaret Ann Pahl is a letter opener belonging to Rev. Gerald Robinson. The round object is a medallion that has been taken off the letter opener.


But he was never charged — insufficient evidence, police said.

Robinson, a native of Toledo, grew up in the city’s Polish section, Kuschwantz, and was ordained in 1964. After a decade of parish pastoring, he was assigned as Mercy chaplain in the mid-1970s, which put him squarely in Sister Margaret Ann Pahl’s infamous glower.
The nun could not countenance what she saw as his laxity. And the priest could not stand her withering criticism.

On April 23, 2004, the case returned to front pages when Robinson was charged with the murder, based upon evidence available 24 years earlier.

What changed? In a book about the case, the Blade’s David Yonke wrote that the Catholic Church had Toledo “wrapped around its little finger” in 1980. Officer Dave Davison told Yonke that all five detectives who investigated the homicide were Catholics.
“They sat on it as a courtesy to the church,” Davison said.

Robinson’s trial in 2006 featured the testimony of Jeffrey Grob, a Catholic priest from Chicago who specialized in exorcism. He said Pahl’s killer was intimate with religious ritual. The mode of murder was meant to denounce her faith, Grob said.

Prosecutor Dan Mandross told the jury that Robinson, a timid introvert, grew furious over the nun’s nitpicks — for example, that he left the sacristy messy when he changed before Mass.

Their final argument came on Good Friday 1980, when Pahl criticized the priest for cutting short that afternoon’s traditionally long, solemn Mass. She was killed the next morning.

“I think this was the final straw,” Mandross said. “He just snapped.”

Robinson was convicted and sentenced to 15 years to life in prison. He continues to claim innocence, though he has failed in a series of appeals. Now 74, he becomes eligible to apply for parole in 2016.

(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1162922!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/justice23n-9-web.jpg)
In 2011, Rev. Gerald Robinson tried to get his conviction overturned. He failed. He is eligible for parole in 2016.


Title: Re: Upstate Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 01:47:27 AM
LOL

Took you long enough to respond to this thread.  How long did it take you to find that?

So it's okay that Muslims do this because Roman Catholics, according to you, do it too?

I am not Roman Catholic, never have been, even though I was born and raised in a country where the population is 99% Roman Catholic.  What was that again about my faith being a result of where I was born and raised?   ::)

I place the Roman Catholic Church in the same category as Islam:  Both worship the virgin Mary, both stress that you must earn your salvation through good works and rituals, both have had leaders accused of child rape, and apparently now according to you they both love honor killings.  

Thank you for proving my point.

And I would not be surprised if the feet of the statue in Daniel 2, made out of iron and clay, are some kind of future alliance between the Roman Catholic Church and Islam to form some kind of oppressive, global theocracy.


Title: Re: Upstate Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Thick Nick on January 31, 2013, 06:00:25 AM
Can't say in before Assmed, but he did exactly what I would have said... since some white dude somewhere did it too, this is fine. Nothing but Muslim hate.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on January 31, 2013, 10:00:42 AM
Quote
place the Roman Catholic Church in the same category as Islam:  Both worship the virgin Mary, both stress that you must earn your salvation through good works and rituals, both have had leaders accused of child rape, and apparently now according to you they both love honor killings. 

I just love how ignorant you are and how you epically self-own yourself all the time. Just give up man.

This thread was pathetic desperation on your path. You know well that Islam forbids honor killings so why post something retarded that some guy did that happens to be Muslim

Imagine, a story about Muslim getting piss drunk in a club. You post that and go look at these drunk mozzlems they get drunk all the time they sleep around and go to clubs. Wait what? Just because some idiot does something does not make it a part of islam.

I posted that article just to make you look like a fool, but no need! You make yourself look like a fool right on your own! So awesome!


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 10:51:41 AM

Quote
place the Roman Catholic Church in the same category as Islam:  Both worship the virgin Mary, both stress that you must earn your salvation through good works and rituals, both have had leaders accused of child rape, and apparently now according to you they both love honor killings. 

I just love how ignorant you are and how you epically self-own yourself all the time. Just give up man.

This thread was pathetic desperation on your path. You know well that Islam forbids honor killings so why post something retarded that some guy did that happens to be Muslim

Imagine, a story about Muslim getting piss drunk in a club. You post that and go look at these drunk mozzlems they get drunk all the time they sleep around and go to clubs. Wait what? Just because some idiot does something does not make it a part of islam.

I posted that article just to make you look like a fool, but no need! You make yourself look like a fool right on your own! So awesome!

a_ahmed,

I apoligize!  Both venerate the virgin Mary.

You complain about that and completely ignored the part about child rape?   ???   LOL    ;D


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on January 31, 2013, 12:25:23 PM
No you're just making a fool out of yourself. Catholics do worship Mary and call her the mother of God and have idols of her, jesus, other saints and people pray to them, supplicate to them etc...

In Islam we only worship the creator and anyone who worships the creation is not following the core fundamentals of Islam. There are deviant sects that supplicate to Muhammad, 'saints', etc... but this is not Islam as it goes against the core teachings of the qur'an. No one 'worships' Mary though even amongst the deviant sects (which puts them out of the folds of Islam anyway).

So... yet again you prove how ignorant you are... you're just filled with anger brah. Admit it, you fail to prove the trinity through any argument scriptural or historical and just over and over again try to say how Islam is of the devil, and post stupid stories.

And whether you like it or not more people are leaving Christianity than Islam, and more people are embracing Islam rather than Christianity and yes those that do become Muslims come through reasoning and intellectual debate, while those that embrace Christianity do so out of emotion. Hate what I say all day every day but it is what it is.

Likewise you are doing yourself disservice by posting stories of village idiots who do stupid things that have far more to do with their retarded cultures than Islam. It's just desperation on your end.

Both scripture and history are against your word.

Also look at the incentive christianity vs islam.

Christianity:
-Do whatever you want and you are saved you are 'gauranteed' heaven.
-Profit from bashing islam and make money even, become popular

Islam:
-You have to do good, you have to be just, you have to work hard and you are not 'guaranteed' heaven.
-Get demonized, get slandered, have the media against you, lose your job, etc...

Yet more people are embracing Islam despite all odds of Islam being portrayed as evil by politicians and crooks.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: loco on January 31, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
Likewise you are doing yourself disservice by posting stories of village idiots who do stupid things that have far more to do with their retarded cultures than Islam. It's just desperation on your end.


But a_ahmed, those people I posted about are not village idiots.  They are educated Muslims living in western countries.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 04, 2013, 08:22:57 AM
LOL

Took you long enough to respond to this thread.  How long did it take you to find that?

So it's okay that Muslims do this because Roman Catholics, according to you, do it too?

I am not Roman Catholic, never have been, even though I was born and raised in a country where the population is 99% Roman Catholic.  What was that again about my faith being a result of where I was born and raised?   ::)

I place the Roman Catholic Church in the same category as Islam:  Both worship the virgin Mary, both stress that you must earn your salvation through good works and rituals, both have had leaders accused of child rape, and apparently now according to you they both love honor killings.  

Thank you for proving my point.

And I would not be surprised if the feet of the statue in Daniel 2, made out of iron and clay, are some kind of future alliance between the Roman Catholic Church and Islam to form some kind of oppressive, global theocracy.

Islam tends to believe that Catholicism and Christianity are one and the same.  

Certainly both faiths have roots in the Roman church, but they've moved along seemingly divergent paths over the course of millenia (one works-based, one faith-based).  

ahmed often refers to Christians and priests together and refers to himself as a "Christian convert to Islam", but inactuality he was a member of the Catholic church and a catholic that converted to Islam.   I would say 98% of his anti-Christian, posting campaign contains only anti-Catholic imagery and propaganda.

I get the reasoning behind lumping the two as one in Islam (despite that not being correct).  Christ is the son of God in the bible, but the son of Mary in the Quran....eh, seemingly harmless change yet still technically correct, right?  Believers in Christ understand the strategic subtlety though....it's a carefully laid out, antiChrist-sourced agenda.   For Islam, the nullification of the deity of Christ is absolutely essential.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 04, 2013, 08:27:06 AM

Christianity:
-Do whatever you want and you are saved you are 'gauranteed' heaven.
-Profit from bashing islam and make money even, become popular


Yep, this is Christianity in a nutshell  ::)


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 04, 2013, 02:03:25 PM
Yeah it is actually :) Or rather one of many flavours how you want to portray the convenience of Christianity as you shape what is God's word on your own.

And so you seem to have a problem with catholics, in case you were unaware i also have people in the family woh are east orthodox christian, and after dwelling in catholicism i moved onto protestantism, certianly less idols. None the les still man made stuff. The fact that someone had to realize that the roman chuch/catholicism was corrupt and man made and had to make a new group as well that's man made. Just debate upon debate, no root sources.

It is not on the basis of any divine decree what so ever, just the root cause of Paul's preaching and then ultimately the many debates of the 'church fathers' then the hundreds of groups that have spawned since that keep spawning to this day such as the many variations of 'gay churches'.

So lets say for sake of argument we agree, then out of the 2 billion some christians you are saying over 1.2 billion catholics are not christians at all... YET... catholicism by very definition is to be the 'universal church' in other words the very mesage that supposedly paul wanted was to preach to everyone, gentiles, non-jews since judaism was a race based religion.

Whether you like it or not, the split between the east and western chuch resulted in catholicism. You can ascribe yourself to newer groups that were created by newer movements all you want but it's all christianity. In the midst of it all christians pick and chose what they want to believe and the rules they believe or don't believe. THAT.. is why you'll never come to agreement even in debate as to what any christian believes. While in Islam we can go back to the quran and give a concise answer with context.

Bottom line with the roman church? After ww2 and the tarnished image of christianity and the roman catholic church, they changed from the old "you're going to hell for whatever you do", to "Jesus loves you, Jesus accept him, lalala".

Yes the old catholicism was brutal indeed with evertyhing you do on top of the fact you had to worship Jesus or else. The new school catholicism pretty much wants as many numbers as possible just say Jesus is God and you're saved.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 05, 2013, 06:54:10 AM
Yeah it is actually :) Or rather one of many flavours how you want to portray the convenience of Christianity as you shape what is God's word on your own.

And so you seem to have a problem with catholics, in case you were unaware i also have people in the family woh are east orthodox christian, and after dwelling in catholicism i moved onto protestantism, certianly less idols. None the les still man made stuff. The fact that someone had to realize that the roman chuch/catholicism was corrupt and man made and had to make a new group as well that's man made. Just debate upon debate, no root sources.

It is not on the basis of any divine decree what so ever, just the root cause of Paul's preaching and then ultimately the many debates of the 'church fathers' then the hundreds of groups that have spawned since that keep spawning to this day such as the many variations of 'gay churches'.

So lets say for sake of argument we agree, then out of the 2 billion some christians you are saying over 1.2 billion catholics are not christians at all... YET... catholicism by very definition is to be the 'universal church' in other words the very mesage that supposedly paul wanted was to preach to everyone, gentiles, non-jews since judaism was a race based religion.

Whether you like it or not, the split between the east and western chuch resulted in catholicism. You can ascribe yourself to newer groups that were created by newer movements all you want but it's all christianity. In the midst of it all christians pick and chose what they want to believe and the rules they believe or don't believe. THAT.. is why you'll never come to agreement even in debate as to what any christian believes. While in Islam we can go back to the quran and give a concise answer with context.

Bottom line with the roman church? After ww2 and the tarnished image of christianity and the roman catholic church, they changed from the old "you're going to hell for whatever you do", to "Jesus loves you, Jesus accept him, lalala".

Yes the old catholicism was brutal indeed with evertyhing you do on top of the fact you had to worship Jesus or else. The new school catholicism pretty much wants as many numbers as possible just say Jesus is God and you're saved.

“the convenience of Christianity”? 
“shape what is God’s word on your own”?


I’ll need a little more help with these statements.

“you seem to have a problem with catholics”

I noted that Christians and Catholics aren’t one and the same.    I also mentioned that Catholics have a works-based faith system.  But a problem with Catholics?  No, no mention of that.

“catholicsm by very definition is to be the ‘universal church’ that supposedly Paul wanted was to preach to everyone”

Would you be produce the scripture for me including the term “universal church”?   Since 1 Timothy 3:15 doesn’t indicate this  you must be referring to other scripture.  You can get back to me on it.

“Whether you like it or not, the split between the east and western church resulted in catholicism. You can ascribe yourself to newer groups that were created by newer movements all you want but it's all christianity. In the midst of it all christians pick and chose what they want to believe and the rules they believe or don't believe.”

Christians just follow Christ like the first Christians Peter, Paul, Timothy, James, Luke, etc….that’s what we’re about.  You should come visit the church sometime…..folks would love to have you.  If you're ever in my area you're welcome to attend with me.

“After ww2 and the tarnished image of christianity and the roman catholic church, they changed from the old "you're going to hell for whatever you do", to "Jesus loves you, Jesus accept him, lalala".”

Christian churches aligned with Christ teach, follow and represent his word…both the hard “fire and brimstone” passages and the passages about the love of God and love for one another.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 06, 2013, 12:29:12 PM
yep


so out of 2 some billion christians, 1.2 billion christians are not christians because they are catholics according to mos.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 06, 2013, 01:53:23 PM
yep


so out of 2 some billion christians, 1.2 billion christians are not christians because they are catholics according to mos.

"according to mos".....no, I didn't say that.  I'd suggest utilizing the quote feature...helps with reference and context.  

Christians are saved by grace through faith and not by their own works.  The Christian then lives a life indwelt and guided by the Holy Spirit in all things.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 06, 2013, 01:56:00 PM
"according to mos".....no, I didn't say that.  I'd suggest utilizing the quote feature...helps with reference and context. 

Christians are saved by grace through faith and not by their own works.  The Christian then lives a life indwelt and guided by the Holy Spirit in all things.

So are Catholics Christians then or not Christians? 1.2 billion Catholics world wide. Largest percentage of Christians are Catholics really. If you say Catholics are not Christians then 1.2 billion are not Christian.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 06, 2013, 02:03:59 PM
So are Catholics Christians then or not Christians? 1.2 billion Catholics world wide. Largest percentage of Christians are Catholics really. If you say Catholics are not Christians then 1.2 billion are not Christian.

Really it's about believers and nonbelievers or saved and unsaved....that's the only title that matters.   If members of the Catholic church have accepted Christ as their God, Lord and Savior they are saved by faith through grace and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  We have many folks that have left the Catholic church and joined my non-denominational church....we're just believers in Christ.  The world demands a title so we use Christian or followers of Christ.  Political ethusiasts prefer "Evangelical" or "Evangelical Christian".  In the end the Lord God knows the contents of all our hearts and if we live for Christ others will recognize that.  Some will be offended, others afraid and others encouraged. 


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 06, 2013, 02:17:02 PM
You're not giving a yes or no answer here. Are Catholics Christians?


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 06, 2013, 02:37:24 PM
You're not giving a yes or no answer here. Are Catholics Christians?

I see through exactly what you're trying to do here.....you're not trapping me in anything.

As I noted above:
Really it's about believers and nonbelievers or saved and unsaved....that's the only title that matters.

If members of the Catholic church have accepted Christ as their God, Lord and Savior they are saved by faith through grace and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The world demands a title so we use Christian or followers of Christ.


If a Catholic follows the Roman Catholic churches works-based salvation theology then they are not saved nor are they Christians.....salvation is attained through Christ and Christ alone.  The counts of folks that do no adhere to this makes no difference (it's highly regrettable), but doesn't change scripture or Jesus Christ. 




Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 06, 2013, 02:42:08 PM
So you're avoiding to answer the question because you want to say Catholics are not Christians but to not make it sound like that you are giving a long winding answer instead. If you want to call that a 'trap' when trying to ascertain the truth, then so be it. Your underlining statement implies it clearly enough for everyone that 1.2 billion catholics are not really christians as furthermore to the point you are distancing yourself from them. Unless you say yes they are Christians implicitly and leave it at that.

So basically also to my earlier statement you are reaffirming what I said as well. You believe that through worshipping Jesus alone you are saved and it doesn't mater whether you do good or no good ('works', deeds). Which apparently Catholics encourage and deem important but you don't.

That's where I go back to what I said and deem "christianity" as you so portray it as a religion of convinience. You are 'saved' and do as you wish and make your rules as you wish. Hence every christian being the way they are the way they shape themselves to be differing from one another and having diferent beliefs and arguments than one another, except of course in this case, worshipping Jesus as supposed implicit 'indifference'.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 06, 2013, 02:51:01 PM
So you're avoiding to answer the question because you want to say Catholics are not Christians but to not make it sound like that you are giving a long winding answer instead. If you want to call that a 'trap' when trying to ascertain the truth, then so be it. Your underlining statement implies it clearly enough for everyone that 1.2 billion catholics are not really christians as furthermore to the point you are distancing yourself from them. Unless you say yes they are Christians implicitly and leave it at that.

So basically also to my earlier statement you are reaffirming what I said as well. You believe that through worshipping Jesus alone you are saved and it doesn't mater whether you do good or no good ('works', deeds). Which apparently Catholics encourage and deem important but you don't.

That's where I go back to what I said and deem "christianity" as you so portray it as a religion of convinience. You are 'saved' and do as you wish and make your rules as you wish. Hence every christian being the way they are the way they shape themselves to be differing from one another and having diferent beliefs and arguments than one another, except of course in this case, worshipping Jesus as supposed implicit 'indifference'.

If a Catholic follows the Roman Catholic churches works-based salvation theology then they are not saved nor are they Christians.....salvation is attained through Christ and Christ alone.  

Last post to you ahmed since we didn't wrap this one up, but I've said it in black and white a couple of times now.  

Just to close I'll leave you with "no, Catholics following a works-based salvation theology are not Christians".


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 06, 2013, 02:54:54 PM
Okay so 1.2 billion catholics are not christians. Only if they denounce 'good works' and only worship Jesus then they are good christians. Got it.

Well that's too bad cause all these billion some catholics strongly and firmly believe they are in fact christians and the roman catholic church is none other than the roman church in the new age as time went on.

Kind of goes by what I said earlier, the term catholic just means 'all embracing' literally.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 07, 2013, 07:00:49 AM
Okay so 1.2 billion catholics are not christians. Only if they denounce 'good works' and only worship Jesus then they are good christians. Got it.

Well that's too bad cause all these billion some catholics strongly and firmly believe they are in fact christians and the roman catholic church is none other than the roman church in the new age as time went on.

Kind of goes by what I said earlier, the term catholic just means 'all embracing' literally.

I understand what you are saying and as I’ve mentioned previously Christianity sprung out of the church of Rome, but Catholicism as it stands today is represented in a different form than originally intended by Christ and the apostles and early church fathers.  Catholicism is a works-based theology in that salvation is attained by our individual good works and not by the shed blood of Christ and his grace.  This is where the Council of Trent perverted Christianity and adopted their version of Catholicism.  

According to Canon 12 of the Council of Trent:

"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."

According to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church:

"No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."

This is a complete departure from scripture.

Salvation by faith through grace does not mean that a believer denounces good works.  What it means is that our individual good works are simply insufficient to attain salvation and eternal life by themselves.  The wages of our sin is death, but life resides in the blood.  The Israelites sacrificed the best of their flocks and herds as blood atonement for their sins, but Jesus came and established a new covenant in which his perfect shed blood on Calvary’s cross paid the sin debt for all that belief by faith that he is our risen God and Savior.  His sufficient grace is enough for all that believe.   Believers are then indwelt by the Holy Spirit and guided accordingly in our new faithful walk with God.   It’s at this point that our good works make the difference because as believers we know that faith without good works is essentially a dead faith….it produces no good fruit.  Further, God knows the contents of our hearts and we'll be judged accordingly....none shall escape his perview.  Salvation through faith by grace is not about reciting magic words and "poof"...go sin like a devil.  That's simply fallacious and ignorant.

As believers in Christ we live our lives as representatives for Christ giving of ourselves and our resources for others.  Sharing the good news of the gospel with those that don’t know or don’t belief.  As believers we repent of our sins.  That repentance is not just turning away from but sin, but changing our minds about our sinful, human ways.  We desire and choose to live as sin free as possible while remaining faithful representatives for Christ and living according to his standards for us.   We are to give of ourselves as Christ gave of himself and should desire to do so.  The indwelling of the Holy Spirit helps guides us in our walk and convicts us when we’re acting inappropriately.  As believers in Christ we should fellowship with believer and nonbeliever alike, worship our God, study his word, praying earnestly seeking God’s will for our lives in all things.  We should aspire to be as Christ like as we are humanly able to be, but knowing that we will succumb to sin from time to time.  This does not equate to a license to sin as there is no such thing…that’s merely a twisted interpretation and nothing more so discard it from your vernacular and you’ll be much better off.    


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: bigbobs on February 07, 2013, 08:03:53 AM
lol I know a strict Catholic who tells me that protestants are not real Christians.  MOS says Catholics are not Christians.

I guess there are only .8 to 1.2 billion Christians in the world.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 07, 2013, 09:07:50 AM
lol I know a strict Catholic who tells me that protestants are not real Christians.  MOS says Catholics are not Christians.

I guess there are only .8 to 1.2 billion Christians in the world.

That's the way of religion LOL...."my religion is correct and you're religion is incorrect."  That said, I don't prescribe to the generic concept of " organized religion"....I'm just a believer in Christ Jesus.  If sects of the Catholic church adhere to salvation by grace through faith then I have no problem considering them believers in Christ....they're more Christian than Catholic at that point (IMHO).   It's about scripture and what is represented therein....veer from that and you represent something different (that population that veers could be 10 or 1 billion).   There are billion Muslims that don't agree with Catholicism or Christianity.

I'm not here to bash the Catholic church, but I will call out the differences in theology and associated origins (as best I'm able to). 


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: bigbobs on February 07, 2013, 09:10:27 AM
That's the way of religion LOL...."my religion is correct and you're religion is incorrect."  That said, I don't prescribe to the generic concept of " organized religion"....I'm just a believer in Christ Jesus.  If sects of the Catholic church adhere to salvation by grace through faith then I have no problem considering them believers in Christ....they're more Christian than Catholic at that point (IMHO).   It's about scripture and what is represented therein....veer from that and you represent something different (that population that veers could be 10 or 1 billion).   There are billion Muslims that don't agree with Catholicism or Christianity.

I'm not here to bash the Catholic church, but I will call out the differences in theology and associated origins (as best I'm able to).  

You can call out the differences in theology all you want but you are not convincing anyone else that your interpretation is scriptural while theirs is non-scriptural.  You state your opinions as though they are universally accepted concrete facts (ex. "Catholics are not Christians" rather than "I don't consider Catholics as Christians."  From what little I know of Catholicism I actually find it more reasonable than what Protestants teach.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 07, 2013, 09:27:06 AM
I went between catholic church and protestant church myself, the one thing I can say about protestants is that they are more loose but that they represent idolatry less in the sense unlike catholics who have idols all over the churches, praying to Jesus, praying to Mary, praying to saints, etc.. I didn't find the same in protestantism. If you go to a protestant church you will not find idols like you will in catholic churches.

None the less both teach and ascribe to the trinity end of story. And both have man made things. The thing is catholics are more strict in preserving what they 'believe', while protestants well.. change. Protestantism was born out of recognition of the corruption in catholicism.

Buying your way into heaven was a big one. Literally paying priests to 'enter heaven' lol. How brainless people are to fall for crap like that. Of course that was in medieval times not today but still.

I personally felt more comfortable in a protestant church than a catholic church. Catholic churches felt 'ritualized' with pagan stuff (which it indeed is) and all the idols etc... it just didn't fly with me. Protestantism you could debate but then they became too lose in belief.

None felt as the word of God but quite clearly the work of men.

My family and I used to be all members of the united church of canada. We even had our own photos in the church book :P

Kind people, we still keep in touch with them, but Islam is the truth.

There are just so many offshoot branches its hard to keep up...

If anything I found catholics far more endorsed in the whole holy spirit, son of God ordeal than protestants themselves. They were adamant over it hence like I said very strict and form on trinitarian beliefs not that the protestants weren't.

I also remember with my catholic school going to a school field trip where we had people 'talk in tongues' to us. I 'fell to the ground' (faked it -- i dunno i saw others doing it so i felt inclined) lol.. later we found out they injected some of the girls with some drug and that's why they fainted. I was like WOW AM I GLAD I FAKED IT LOL

Sorry to dissapoint you again MOS, but unless protestants are now also non-christians, I don't know who's left to be a 'true christian'.


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: Man of Steel on February 07, 2013, 09:39:56 AM
You can call out the differences in theology all you want but you are not convincing anyone else that your interpretation is scriptural while theirs is non-scriptural.  You state your opinions as though they are universally accepted concrete facts (ex. "Catholics are not Christians" rather than "I don't consider Catholics as Christians."  From what little I know of Catholicism I actually find it more reasonable than what Protestants teach.

Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation".  Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context.  Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at.  Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included.  If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required.  If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored.  Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?"  Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice.  You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL.  I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient.  Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though".  Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking).  I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.

It's really not my problem anymore.

I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.

If you'd like, read Paul Copan's "That's Just Your Interpretation" or “How Do You Know You’re Not Wrong” or “True For You, But Not For Me” or “Is God A Moral Monster”.  You’d could probably pick up a good used copy of all on Amazon for a few bucks each….all good reads.

So I’m unclear, do I point out theological differences (as I noted) or do I state everything as though it's universally accepted fact?  If it’s universally accepted I probably shouldn’t have noted the 1 billion dissenting Catholics and 1 billion dissenting Muslims.   As I mentioned yesterday, Christians appear narrow-minded because Christ is the narrow gate to salvation…..I follow the master, the master doesn’t follow me.    

I think it’s completely reasonable that a Muslim would find Catholicism more appealing than Christianity….they do align better in terms of a works-based theology (not exact alignment of course LOL).


Title: Re: N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife
Post by: a_ahmed on February 07, 2013, 09:42:45 AM
They don't align at all but okay.

All we have in relation to chrsitianity is Jesus. OTherwise we are far closer to the true religion that Jesus followed which is far closer to judaism than what paul and the church invented later for example throwing away God's law and replacing it with man made laws. In either cases for example protestants and catholics follow man made laws.

God did not forbid religious men from marrying yet catholics do.

Amongst certain protestants gay marriage has been 'okayed' yet God does not approve of homosexuals in teh first place and destroyed a whole nation upon it. But anyways

The question of divorce in chrsitianity was another big debate. According to catholic's view based on paul's view, they saw divorce as a form of adultery.

You will find many of Jesus' teachings and sayings as mentioend in the bible, mentioned by Muhammad in hadith and mentioned by the quran by God. But you will NOT find the doctrines of the church or paul.