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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on February 11, 2013, 12:40:47 PM



Title: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 11, 2013, 12:40:47 PM
According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D.

^^ Davis, SJ, Leo Donald (1990). The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology (Theology and Life Series 21). Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier/Liturgical Press. p. 68. ISBN 978-0-8146-5616-7.

Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century.

The early Christians had no idea what you guys are ranting on about. They worshiped God alone, they followed Jesus (pbuh). The trinity is a later invention and all the other doctrines you are  trying to propagate that justify to you the worship of a man.

The following narration recorded in the Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by orthodox Sunni scholars and provides a plausible explanation for the Qur'anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus:

    Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
    —Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489




Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From the Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus was Allah
Post by: a_ahmed on February 11, 2013, 12:45:37 PM
Okay?

It doesn't show that at all. It just shows that a group of people disbelieved and were misguided and made false claims about Jesus being God.

Muslims are anybody even before Muhammad (pbuh) who submit their will to God. That's the definition of a Muslim. It's not a name label but rather a definition of a believer who submits himself to God truly.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From the Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus was Allah
Post by: loco on February 11, 2013, 12:46:54 PM
Okay?

It doesn't show that at all. It just shows that a group of people disbelieved and were misguided and made false claims about Jesus being God.

I thought you said that did not happen until centuries later.  The Muslim narration above disagrees with you.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 11, 2013, 12:49:01 PM
It doesn't specify dates, it mentions that three groups developed there-from which is true.

In the US gov there were people who claimed sadam had wmd, there were poeple right away who said it was lies, there were people who were not sure and then there were people who brought further lies and did not stop lying until the very end.

That does not mean that therefore the US gov was 'right' as time passed by, it still was a lie regardless of time frame and as such there were three groups of people.

You're just chasing a wild card desperately.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 11, 2013, 12:58:13 PM
It doesn't specify dates, it mentions that three groups developed there-from which is true.

In the US gov there were people who claimed sadam had wmd, there were poeple right away who said it was lies, there were people who were not sure and then there were people who brought further lies and did not stop lying until the very end.

That does not mean that therefore the US gov was 'right' as time passed by, it still was a lie regardless of time frame and as such there were three groups of people.

You're just chasing a wild card desperately.

First of all, I do not believe that narration at all myself.  Just pointing out Muslim contradictions.  It goes both ways, the narration does not say it happened centuries later, more like it happened soon after the alleged Jesus clone was crucified.  


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: stingray on February 11, 2013, 01:02:39 PM
Not to sure what the issue is loco?



Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 11, 2013, 01:23:16 PM
He's desperate to try to prove that Jesus is God so with his lack of understanding of what is even being said here he is saying Muslims actually believe that Jesus was/is God or something from the very beginning lol or that the followers of Jesus immediately thought he was God.

Just whatever, he's trying too hard.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 11, 2013, 01:34:06 PM
Not to sure what the issue is loco?



No issue, just pointing out the Muslim contractions. One day Muslims say Christians did not believe Jesus is God until many centuries after Jesus walked the earth.  The next minute Muslims are saying that shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, many Christians believed that Jesus is Allah.   ::)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: stingray on February 11, 2013, 02:05:06 PM
No issue, just pointing out the Muslim contractions. One day Muslims say Christians did not believe Jesus is God until many centuries after Jesus walked the earth.  The next minute Muslims are saying that shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, many Christians believed that Jesus is Allah.   ::)

So, where are the contradictions in the hadith of ibn abbass?

Its a hadith anyway, not a quranic verse


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 11, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
He's thinking that the hadith is stating that immediately right after Jesus was taken to heaven POOF three groups emerged instantly: 1.  worshipped him as God 2. Called him son of God 3. Another which he is probably slightly confused about or does not understand said he was a servant of God. He thinks 'muslims' as in the muslims way after. When by definition that implies the true followers of Jesus those that submit to God just as Jesus over and over is said to have submitted his will in the bible itself TO God. "Not my will but your will". Definition of Muslim is one who submits to God.

Also what is stated at the end is indeed true but he omits that detail. The christian groups that prevailed and the teachings that prevailed exterminated the early christians that are called here muslims, the true followers of Jesus. This is fact. The early jewish 'sects' that were followers of Jesus and following the law, they were exterminated by the church and the beliefs that prevailed. The ones who were exterminated were dubbed heretics ultimately and done away with one by one. The trinitarianism ultimately prevailed.

Hence the final touching point onward Islam disappeared until the emergence of Muhammad (pbuh).

No where does it explicitly imply any date or anything it's the story generalized with the few true facts but he's desperate, but let him go on searching. We're here to clarify it for him inshAllah :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 12:14:56 PM
He's thinking that the hadith is stating that immediately right after Jesus was taken to heaven POOF three groups emerged instantly: 1.  worshipped him as God 2. Called him son of God

Not necessarily. It could have been days, weeks, months, maybe even years later.  But centuries?  I don't think so.  That narration does not say that and rather makes it look like it was shortly after the crucifixion. 


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 01:43:28 PM
And lets say what you're saying is true. That it was years after. How does that make it right? If no one ever worshipped him in the first place, and then afterwards people thought he was god and started worshipping him. When Jesus peace be upon him only called towards servitute and worship of God. Reminded people of the law, practiced the law, scrutinized the pharisees jews for inventing traditions of their own making over following the law, etc...

It still in fact proves our point. That after Jesus left, people started thinking he's God because he was saved and did not die. Amongst many other examples.

This is in fact what happened people turned him into a demigod and starte dworshipping him. While the true followers of Jesus were indeed exterminated. This is fact. They are no more. They were Jews. Not Romans.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Jon Harridan on February 12, 2013, 02:14:25 PM
He's desperate to try to prove that Jesus is God so with his lack of understanding of what is even being said here he is saying Muslims actually believe that Jesus was/is God or something from the very beginning lol or that the followers of Jesus immediately thought he was God.

Just whatever, he's trying too hard.

Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES. As usual Ahmed you're just talking out of your ass so it's no wonder that your claims are absolute bullshit!

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: stingray on February 12, 2013, 02:55:13 PM
Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES. As usual Ahmed you're just talking out of your ass so it's no wonder that your claims are absolute bullshit!

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm

Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Jon Harridan on February 12, 2013, 03:08:27 PM
Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.

That's not just my opinion, that's the TRUTH. I didn't claim that those who disagreed with me were necessarily Satanists but in reality those that are not of God are of the devil! Sadly that bracket includes you and that cheeky terrorist Ahmed. Humans cannot choose whatever they want because God has commanded them to serve and obey Him (and Jesus His Son) only. I don't bother about the Muslim perspective because it's one that has already been proven to be Satanic, devilish, Antichrist. Jesus is not a prophet, He is the Son of God as well as being none other than God Himself. Of course Jesus is God (not God the Father but God the Son); the Bible explicitly says so MANY TIMES and since the Bible's the word of God the Bible is 100% true. The facts totally disagree with you, my misguided/deluded Muslim friend (check the link below this time). The road to Mecca's the road to Hell!

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm#islam

http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 03:11:14 PM
Ok, thats your opinion, and thats fine.Just because soemone doesnt agree wwith you then there not satanists as you claim.

Humans can choose whatever they want.

But from a muslims perspective, we beleive in jesus and his miracles and beleive he is a prophet just like Mohamed, moses, abraham and every single prophet that came to mankind.

Jesus is no superior than any other prophets.Other prophets did miracles as well, they were not labelled son of god or God.

Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will return to earth to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 03:12:17 PM
If it were the truth we'd know it too. Unfortunately it is your opinion. Because as a former christian I too read the bible and I did not come across teachings that explicitly state Jesus is God or came as a human or whatever. In fact if one christian or non christian were to pick up a bible and read it, they would find out that Jesus in fact differentiated himself from God, was not like God, was not God, served God, prayed to God, and was hundreds of times refered to as a prophet of God, messenger of God, servant of God, dependant on God.

Somehow thouh those who are not out for the truth ignore these verses and keep focusing on elusive verses to try to justify to others why they are worshipping Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them both).


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 03:12:54 PM
Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will come back to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?

Because that is the role appointed to him by God. After all it will be the christ vs the false christ aka anti christ? Kind of common sense  by verbage alone isn't it?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 03:17:26 PM
Jesus himself asked God's help and said. "I by my own myself can do nothing".. So I rather say the GOD that Jesus prayed to is with me than his slave.. Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"...Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I by my own myself can do nothing"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, butonly the Father."

Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"

There's hundreds upon hundreds of these showcasing Jesus is not God and depended on God, prayed to God, cried to God, etc...


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: stingray on February 12, 2013, 03:41:18 PM
Jesus himself asked God's help and said. "I by my own myself can do nothing".. So I rather say the GOD that Jesus prayed to is with me than his slave.. Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"...Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I by my own myself can do nothing"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, butonly the Father."

Matthew 26:39 "Jesus fell on his face and prayed to HIS GOD"

There's hundreds upon hundreds of these showcasing Jesus is not God and depended on God, prayed to God, cried to God, etc...

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Jon Harridan on February 12, 2013, 03:41:45 PM
Then why do Muslims believe that it is Jesus Christ, not Mohamed or any other prophet, who will return to earth to defeat the Antichrist and then rule the world?

Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 03:45:04 PM
Colossians 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

I assure you, I know the bible better than you... as I of my own accord read it, it was not shoved down my throat.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: B_B_C on February 12, 2013, 03:49:14 PM
Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.

Ms Johanna You shut up, you pubic munching troll. What can a sodomite  like you possibly know about life ? Just because you skimmed through porn mags  a few times doesn't mean you understand life . Jesus is very angry at you,


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:05:29 PM
Because that is the role appointed to him by God. After all it will be the christ vs the false christ aka anti christ? Kind of common sense  by verbage alone isn't it?

I don't think so.  The Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.

I care.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:14:16 PM
I don't think so.  The Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets

Wrong again.

Jesus will kill the anti-christ but the mahdi will be fighting the forces of the anti christ. The mahdi will be a muslim leader. When Jesus ascends into Syria he will be recognized by everyone and will be asked to lead the prayer but he will refuse and ask the mahdi to lead the prayer and he will pray behind him. That's about it. They will pray together.

Jesus is the one that will kill the anti-christ with as it's described his 'breath'. The anti christ will run away every time Jesus is around but ultimately will perish with Jesus killing him on what today happens to be an israeli air base if I recall (the location of the land where this battle will end)

We can see all that's happening today and God knows best. But the forces of the anti christ are none other than western governments which are godless and leading people away from Godliness and piety but instead towards corruption and this world's deceptions. The zionists in the region have their plots.

They await the messiah as well, who will be the anti-christ. Some of the jews will accept him, some will accept Jesus as we Muslims await. The anti christ will be followed by certain Jews, including Jews from Iran as it's described wearing blue shauls (sp?)

The anti christ will first make his mark in isfahan which is today a province of iran.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:18:54 PM
Wrong again.

Jesus will kill the anti-christ but the mahdi will be fighting the forces of the anti christ. The mahdi will be a muslim leader. When Jesus ascends into Syria he will be recognized by everyone and will be asked to lead the prayer but he will refuse and ask the mahdi to lead the prayer and he will pray behind him. That's about it. They will pray together.

I did not say who would kill the antichrist, did I?

I said that the Mahdi will fight the Antichrist.  Jesus will return to help the Mahdi.  The Mahdi dies, but Jesus lives to rule the world.

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:20:14 PM
You have a funny way of responding when proven silly and wrong. We don't try to prove superiority of one man to another man chosen by God. They all have their roles as chosen by God

Muhammad was sent to all mankind as the final messenger.

Jesus was sent to the jews as the promised messiah.

Jesus will return to fight the anti-christ and establish the rule of God on earth who will live out his life, marry and pass away after that blessed period will end, worse things will come before the day of judgment until eventually only the worst of people are left on the earth and God will eventually smite them.

Mahdi is a simple human being, nothing more, not a prophet or messenger of God.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:23:37 PM
You have a funny way of responding when proven silly and wrong.

Muhammad was sent to all mankind.

Jesus was sent to the jews.

Jesus will return to fight the anti-christ.

Mahdi is a simple human being, nothing more, not a prophet or messenger of God.

Then why is the Qur'an in Arabic?  Mohamed was sent to the Arabs.

Then why is Jesus the one who will return to rule the world and no Mohammad?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:27:09 PM
You ask the same way the Jews asked. So many questions. That's how they behaved in their haughtiness. It's interesting to observe.

God does what He wills and he chose specific tasks for certain human beings. Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the jews

Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."

Muhammad (pbuh) was sent for all mankind.

He had a role, and each one of them has a role.

Why is the bible in hebrew, latin, koine greek, aramaic?

One thing we can say for sure. Unlike the bible, the qur'an is memorized by people who don't even speak the arabic language. The qur'an is memorized word for word literally without any exageration word for word by hundreds of millions of human beings even 3 year old children. This is one of the miracles of the qur'an.

People can touch that very qur'an and every single one of them is the same.

The same cannot be said about the bible. If people wanted to touch the aramaic scripts or koine greek scripts, they wouldn't even be able to and there are many variations in parchments.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:30:30 PM
Man who memorized the entire qur'an word for word correctly without knowing the arabic language:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM

Can you believe that he actually memorized Quran in 8-9 month. He doesn't speak nor understand Arabic, does he? But he actually managed to memorize it in such a short time..

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404455_314363882000213_784961268_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:33:06 PM
You ask the same way the Jews asked. So many questions. That's how they behaved in their haughtiness. It's interesting to observe.

God does what He wills and he chose specific tasks for certain human beings. Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the jews

That's all you have?   :-\

Still doesn't answer my question:

Then why is it Jesus, and not Mohammad, the one who will return to rule the world?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:35:44 PM
You're being childish just like John.

I feel sorry for you although I'm not surprised.

Jesus is the messiah one chosen for this task. That's it. He will live in this life, rule the world by God's law, marry, die. That's what God wants.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 12, 2013, 04:41:40 PM
You're being childish just like John.

I feel sorry for you although I'm not surprised.

Jesus is the messiah one chosen for this task. That's it. He will live in this life, rule the world by God's law, marry, die. That's what God wants.

If Jesus = Mohammad then why is it Jesus, and not Mohammad, the one who will return to rule the world?

So

Jesus > Mohammad
Jesus > Mahdi
Jesus > all prophets


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 12, 2013, 04:48:36 PM
Jesus and Muhammad are not equal. Jesus was at the time sent to the children of israel. Muhammad was sent to deliver a message for all mankind. Jesus is also chosen to return to kill the false messiah.

Likewise Abraham had a purpose. Isac and Ishmael had a purpose. Jacob had a purpose. Moses had a purpose. Adam and his wife Eve had a purpose. All of them had their specific tasks. God's plan as it is whether you like these things or not. They are the way they are.

And now you're sounding like a clown copy pasting Jesus> Jesus> Jesus>. We don't deem one superior to another they are the best of mankind as chosen by God for their specific tasks.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 13, 2013, 04:20:54 AM
Jesus and Muhammad are not equal. Jesus was at the time sent to the children of israel. Muhammad was sent to deliver a message for all mankind. Jesus is also chosen to return to kill the false messiah.

Likewise Abraham had a purpose. Isac and Ishmael had a purpose. Jacob had a purpose. Moses had a purpose. Adam and his wife Eve had a purpose. All of them had their specific tasks. God's plan as it is whether you like these things or not. They are the way they are.

And now you're sounding like a clown copy pasting Jesus> Jesus> Jesus>. We don't deem one superior to another they are the best of mankind as chosen by God for their specific tasks.

a_ahmed,

Do you believe that the apostle John was a Muslim?  Do you believe that the book of Revelation in the Bible is the word of God?

In Revelation, God revealed to John the future and John wrote, hundreds of years before Mohamed was born, that Jesus would return, defeat the Antichrist and rule the world.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 14, 2013, 07:15:49 AM
Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

stingray,

In the verse that you quoted above, John 16:7, Jesus said "i will send him unto you."  Are you saying that Jesus sent Mohamed?  I thought God sent Mohamed.  Surely you, a Muslim, is not saying that Jesus is God, are you?

Anyway, that is not Mohamed.  That is the Holy Spirit.  The verses that you quoted say so themselves:

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:13-14
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 14, 2013, 11:16:44 AM
One thing we can say for sure. Unlike the bible, the qur'an is memorized by people who don't even speak the arabic language. The qur'an is memorized word for word literally without any exageration word for word by hundreds of millions of human beings even 3 year old children. This is one of the miracles of the qur'an.
My daughter turned 3 years old 2.5 weeks ago.  When was 2.5 years old she already had bible verses memorized.....as did some of her classmates.  My daughter also has Christian songs and prayers memorized.

People can touch that very qur'an and every single one of them is the same.

Quranic variations do exist....there are translations of the Quran that differ from culture to culture.  Most non-Muslims don't know this; in fact, most Muslims don't know this.  Those Muslims that do know it certainly don't talk about it.  It's more of a "well if it's discovered we'll address it then" kinda thing.

The same cannot be said about the bible. If people wanted to touch the aramaic scripts or koine greek scripts, they wouldn't even be able to and there are many variations in parchments.

An honest suggestion, read a book on textual criticism.  I'm just finishing one now...Bruce Metzger or Daniel Wallace are great resources to understand the field.  FYI ~ Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" is non-representative of the vast majority of the field...it's just a favorite for the sake of Christian opposition.....been fully refuted and debunked.  Same can be said for the infamous "Jesus Seminar"....debunked.  


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 14, 2013, 12:06:26 PM
Man who memorized the entire qur'an word for word correctly without knowing the arabic language:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J95ArY8J2cM

Can you believe that he actually memorized Quran in 8-9 month. He doesn't speak nor understand Arabic, does he? But he actually managed to memorize it in such a short time..

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404455_314363882000213_784961268_n.jpg)
There are people worldwide of varying colors and creeds, across all faiths that have eidetic memories.  Others have become exceptional at memorization via mnemonic devices.  I memorized some spanish and some german and don't speak either language; granted I lost it overtime, but had I kept at it I would've retained it.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 14, 2013, 12:14:09 PM
Your daughter memorized verses from the bible? I was talking about the entire qur'an word for word memorized by little children.

I have yet to meet a single priest who has the entire bible memorized word for word. One of my pastors was well versed in the bible but still did not have the entire bible memorized. Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat were also well versed in the bible and memorized verses but not the entire bible.. No one has ever memorized the entire bible word for word and if they had they would be a single person memorizing maybe one versions of a bible.

Muslims invented referencing and textual criticism. The reason the bible is versionized and the authorship unknown is from this very lack of this. We don't know for surety who said what or authored/wrote what from the very beginning only speculation. That's why certain Christians get angry when the books of NT are accused of being 'written by Paul' and they will claim no it is by actual apostles of Jesus/etc. and the debate rages on.

Regardless even if one person has memorized the bible, there's hundreds of MILLIONS who have memorized the qur'an word for word EVEN if they don't speak Arabic. It's incomparable.

And sorry MOS, but every single Qur'an in existence today in Arabic is word for word the same, it's a living spoken language, and everyone has access to it freely.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 15, 2013, 11:42:00 AM
Your daughter memorized verses from the bible? I was talking about the entire qur'an word for word memorized by little children.

I have yet to meet a single priest who has the entire bible memorized word for word. One of my pastors was well versed in the bible but still did not have the entire bible memorized. Zakir Naik and Ahmed Deedat were also well versed in the bible and memorized verses but not the entire bible.. No one has ever memorized the entire bible word for word and if they had they would be a single person memorizing maybe one versions of a bible.

Muslims invented referencing and textual criticism. The reason the bible is versionized and the authorship unknown is from this very lack of this. We don't know for surety who said what or authored/wrote what from the very beginning only speculation. That's why certain Christians get angry when the books of NT are accused of being 'written by Paul' and they will claim no it is by actual apostles of Jesus/etc. and the debate rages on.

Regardless even if one person has memorized the bible, there's hundreds of MILLIONS who have memorized the qur'an word for word EVEN if they don't speak Arabic. It's incomparable.

And sorry MOS, but every single Qur'an in existence today in Arabic is word for word the same, it's a living spoken language, and everyone has access to it freely.

No, I personally don't know any children that have memorized the bible.  I also don’t know any children under the age of 5 that speak four languages fluently or have graduated college under the age of 10, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. 

There are many folks that have memorized the bible and memorized multiple translations of the bible.  Countless Jews have memorized the OT.  Many Christians and Catholics have memorized the OT and NT.

Textual criticism is roughly  500-600 years older than Islam…the field was not developed by Muslims.  Now, I have no issue with the notion that Muslim men and women may have made contributions to the field (even significant contributions)….I can’t confirm those contributions, but I believe that to be completely reasonable.

I actually don't contest the idea that millions of Muslims over the centuries have memorized the Quran, but hundreds of millions today is grossly false.  That would mean that about 1 out of 3 Muslims on the planet has the Quran memorized…they don’t.  Personally I know more than three Muslims and none of them have the Quran memorized…at best they have a handful of verses memorized.

Well, actually my comment was broader than just the original Arabic translation of the Quran, but there are multiple Arabic translations as well.  Variance in Quranic translation has occurred in both the Arabic and across other cultures/languages. 

When you begin to get more granular in your study of the Christianity, Catholicism or Islam you tend to find that none are as “bulletproof” as initially thought.  As believers the more militant members of our faiths will do their level best to disguise this reality; still, I think that despite the variant translation of the bible or Quran that the core of the message in both is completely intact; almost 100% so.   Variations in the bible that have impact on theology is less than 1% (actually about .04%) and even then the “impacted theology” is secondary or tertiary material and does nothing to jeopardize the core.   I believe the same is true of the Quran. 


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 15, 2013, 12:32:24 PM
Well I know it may not sound agreeable to you but it's pretty common and whether you like it or not yes hundreds of millions have it memorized, it's one thing thats common amongst muslims and one of the miracles of the nature of the qur'an. And I have yet to count on my fingers how many have memorized the bible. Even if you find such a person it will be a handful and you'll have to really look hard, I have yet to hear of one who has legitimately memorized a version of the bible. On the other hand finding people who memorized the qur'an word for word exactly with no errors, is pretty easy.

And the variations in the bible are pretty severe, such as insertions of verses that specifically try to imply trinity or deliberately are trinity messages and were not in the originals. That's pretty serious as it dictates opposing doctrines. Or invented stories, such as the story of the prostitute and not stoning her. It was not in the oldest scriptures but a later addition.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 15, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
Well I know it may not sound agreeable to you but it's pretty common and whether you like it or not yes hundreds of millions have it memorized, it's one thing thats common amongst muslims and one of the miracles of the nature of the qur'an. And I have yet to count on my fingers how many have memorized the bible. Even if you find such a person it will be a handful and you'll have to really look hard. On the other hand finding people who memorized the qur'an word for word exactly with no errors, is pretty easy.

And the variations in the bible are pretty severe, such as insertions of verses that specifically try to imply trinity or deliberately are trinity messages and were not in the originals. That's pretty serious as it dictates opposing doctrines.

I don't disgree with the notion that FAR more Muslims memorize the Quran than do Christians or Catholics memorize the bible, but hundreds of millions is false.  Again, I would agree that several million have over the centuries.  Since it's part of Islamic tradition I find it completely reasonable, but 1 out of 3 Muslims on planet Earth today?  Not a chance.

That's just it, the variations you refer to are not severe in anyway....that's a misnomer...plain and simple.  The most drastic variations make up less than 1% and even those variations don't compromise anything at all.  Again, that's why I suggested a book on textual criticism....it really helps to ground the variations in reality and shows that no part of the scripture is threatened. 


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 15, 2013, 02:08:29 PM
Well like I said you may not like it, but it's fact. There's two billion muslims today it's very common every where in every of our communities to have hundreds of people memorizing the qur'an word for word including little children. Hundred million people is not much in contrast to a total of two billion Muslims world wide. Even if it's just 10 million it's still far surpasses what you can count on hands of people who I have yet to find that have memorized the entire bible word for word whatever version it may be.

Again give me even a handful of people I can count on my fingers who have memorized the bible you'll have to spend some time looking and trouble finding them. I have yet to even hear of one much less meet one.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 15, 2013, 02:23:57 PM
Our religion defines a culture where people are striving to be in remembrance of God from a young age

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk

And when we pray we recite the qur'an. As such we are in constant reminder of God by praying every day and by reciting the qur'an as to what God reveals to us and teaches us.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 15, 2013, 02:29:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE

And it's not a 'few verses' that are memorized, but when i say word for word, this is entire chapters, to a complete completion of the entire qur'an WITH proper pronunciation. As reciting the qur'an there is a proper way to do it. Then there's people who memorize volumes of tafsir (commentary) with full understanding, there's levels to it, it's impressive.


The pope did not memorize the bible and neither have any high position christian leaders. It speaks volumes.

Regardless of how many people you believe memorize the qur'an, lets say JUST ten million out of two billion. How many can you find me that have memorized say the catholic bible or the protestant bible or the ethiopian bible just as an example.

All this stems from 'oh the quran was revealed in arabic' and so if it was, it is an eloquent and expressive language. God knows best and chooses the best out of His infinite wisdom. Far more so than any other language AND it is to this day a living spoken language. The same cannot be said about koine-greek, latin, aramaic and heck even hebrew. Hebrew as it's spoken today is spoken how and by how many million people? Aramaic same thing I actually had the opportunity to know an assyrian girl in college she spoke Aramaic i was so utterly impressed as it's borderline an extinct language!

So again, the two are not comparable not even close.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 17, 2013, 06:09:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPL4pc9afE

And it's not a 'few verses' that are memorized, but when i say word for word, this is entire chapters, to a complete completion of the entire qur'an WITH proper pronunciation. As reciting the qur'an there is a proper way to do it. Then there's people who memorize volumes of tafsir (commentary) with full understanding, there's levels to it, it's impressive.


The pope did not memorize the bible and neither have any high position christian leaders. It speaks volumes.

Regardless of how many people you believe memorize the qur'an, lets say JUST ten million out of two billion. How many can you find me that have memorized say the catholic bible or the protestant bible or the ethiopian bible just as an example.

All this stems from 'oh the quran was revealed in arabic' and so if it was, it is an eloquent and expressive language. God knows best and chooses the best out of His infinite wisdom. Far more so than any other language AND it is to this day a living spoken language. The same cannot be said about koine-greek, latin, aramaic and heck even hebrew. Hebrew as it's spoken today is spoken how and by how many million people? Aramaic same thing I actually had the opportunity to know an assyrian girl in college she spoke Aramaic i was so utterly impressed as it's borderline an extinct language!

So again, the two are not comparable not even close.

Our religion defines a culture where people are striving to be in remembrance of God from a young age

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIjsx8_dYhk

And when we pray we recite the qur'an. As such we are in constant reminder of God by praying every day and by reciting the qur'an as to what God reveals to us and teaches us.

Well like I said you may not like it, but it's fact. There's two billion muslims today it's very common every where in every of our communities to have hundreds of people memorizing the qur'an word for word including little children. Hundred million people is not much in contrast to a total of two billion Muslims world wide. Even if it's just 10 million it's still far surpasses what you can count on hands of people who I have yet to find that have memorized the entire bible word for word whatever version it may be.

Again give me even a handful of people I can count on my fingers who have memorized the bible you'll have to spend some time looking and trouble finding them. I have yet to even hear of one much less meet one.

Once again, I have no issue with several million Muslims over the centuries memorizing the Quran.  Recitation and memorization of the Quran is part of the Islamic belief system.   Much like the worship of Mary in Catholicism or the sacred treatment of cows in Hinduism...it is only a part of that belief system.  It makes perfect sense that many more Muslims will memorize the Quran than Christians will memorize the bible.....Christianity doesn't practice a regimen of scripture memorization or virgin Mary worship or sacred cow treatment.  For a comparitive count to be meaninful it must be a standard part of both groups being compared.  I have no doubt that Texas bbq'rs have eaten far more beef than California vegans.

Question:  Does the Quran state that Muslims should memorize its verses?  If so would you reference the verses for me so I can understand Allah's memorization requirement?



Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Hugo Chavez on February 17, 2013, 06:25:52 AM
Who the fuck cares about what the (godless) Muslims believe? Their beliefs are all stuff and nonsense anywhere; the (pagan) Muslims believe in fairytales and lies.
You can call muslims a lot of things but "pagan" probably is one term that doesn't at all fit.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
a_ahmed,

Do you believe that the apostle John was a Muslim?  Do you believe that the book of Revelation in the Bible is the word of God?

In Revelation, God revealed to John the future and John wrote, hundreds of years before Mohamed was born, that Jesus would return, defeat the Antichrist and rule the world.

BUMP.


a_ahmed?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 12:36:54 PM
Sorry you lost me when you started talking non-sense. You persist in quoting verses the same ones over and over again and ignoring the ones I present which crumble your arguments.

However the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) were Muslims yes, we believe in them. It's similar to how Muhammad (pbuh) had companions, Jesus had his companions. However what you have God only knows what's true and what's not true as it's riddled with contradictions and insertions by scribes. Plus we don't even know who really authored the books of the NT besides Paul.

I know what you're trying to say if we believe that 'apostle John' is a Muslim, then how are we denying the verses you are posting. Yeah okay  ::)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 12:41:19 PM
Sorry you lost me when you started talking non-sense. You persist in quoting verses the same ones over and over again and ignoring the ones I present which crumble your arguments.

However the apostles of Jesus were Muslims yes, we believe in them. However what you have God only knows what's true and what's not true as it's riddled with contradictions and insertions by scribes. Plus we don't even know who really authored the books of the NT besides Paul.

What?  What does that have to do with my questions?  And where in my post did I quote the Bible?

Do you believe that the book of Revelation in the Bible is the word of God?

In Revelation, God revealed to John the future and John wrote, hundreds of years before Mohamed was born, that Jesus would return, defeat the Antichrist and rule the world.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 12:47:25 PM
No I don't believe the bible as it is is the word of God. Because if it was it would have no errors in it or contradictions.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: stingray on February 20, 2013, 12:48:26 PM
BUMP.


a_ahmed?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?  Bueller?

Its not that i dont want to reply, but i think ahmed and big bobs are doing a good job in this section, also im not that well versed in the christian religion like ahmed is.

Im to busy now in the gossip section refuting bad boy dazzas and e-kuls anti muslim rhetoric lol.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

stingray,

In the verse that you quoted above, John 16:7, Jesus said "i will send him unto you."  Are you saying that Jesus sent Mohamed?  I thought God sent Mohamed.  Surely you, a Muslim, is not saying that Jesus is God, are you?

Anyway, that is not Mohamed.  That is the Holy Spirit.  The verses that you quoted say so themselves:

John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:13-14
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 12:58:43 PM
You're just being childish. You lost this argument a long time ago.

You contradict yourself and make yourself look a fool

"whom the Father will send"

Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 12:59:30 PM
You lost this argument a long time ago that's all I'm going to say :) You're holding tight onto web strings. Not only were you using elusive verses, now you're chopping up verses and ironically missing out parts such as whom the father will send.

So is the bible contradicting itself? I am being childish now like you.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 12:59:55 PM
No I don't believe the bible as it is is the word of God. Because if it was it would have no errors in it or contradictions.

So the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:02:12 PM
Well one thing's for sure Paul and the authors of the new testament certainly plagiarized the old testament.


Quote
From LUKE:

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...

3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.


Since you're so well versed in the bible you would be able to determine which verse above is from psalms which verse is from Deuteronomy, etc... :)


Woooooooooooosh


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:05:04 PM
Well one thing's for sure Paul and the authors of the new testament certainly plagiarized the old testament.



Since you're so well versed in the bible you would be able to determine which verse above is from psalms which verse is from Deuteronomy, etc... :)


Woooooooooooosh

Actually, unlike you Muslims, Christians believe that both the New Testament and the Old Testament are both the inerrant word of God.

So the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
Then if it is the 'innerant' word of God, why is it full of errors, absurdities, contradictions even math errors?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:09:11 PM
Then if it is the 'innerant' word of God, why is it full of errors, absurdities, contradictions even math errors?

That's what you choose to see.  I could point out hundreds of errors and contradictions in the Qur'an, but you won't see them as such.

So the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:13:01 PM
You already tried and they were not errors. Like saying how can man be made of water, soil, sperm, etc...

Yet our bodies are made of the elements of the earth, is made up majority from water and sperm is indeed a part of how we are created. Just one example.

On the other hand lets listen to the bible?

Apparently light was created FIRST then the sun, moon, stars which cause the light not to mention 'days' being mentioned when the earth was not even created our definition of days is by rotation of night and day.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:23:37 PM
You already tried and they were not errors. Like saying how can man be made of water, soil, sperm, etc...

Yet our bodies are made of the elements of the earth, is made up majority from water and sperm is indeed a part of how we are created. Just one example.

On the other hand lets listen to the bible?

Apparently light was created FIRST then the sun, moon, stars which cause the light not to mention 'days' being mentioned when the earth was not even created our definition of days is by rotation of night and day.

If you say so.

Did the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:25:13 PM
lol :) What a child  ;D

Jesus was but a mighty messenger of God.

Cute how you sweep under the rug the Luke incident with Jesus being tempted by the devil ;)

lol@plagarizing when I show you actual verses being copy pasted you don't even know I even gave you hints psalms, deuteronomy, etc... but you don't even know which parts of the Luke story or where they are from.

Just amsuing :)

And the bible and the qur'an are NOTHING a like. Oh and, the Jesus returning stuff is not in the Qur'an. It is in hadith. In either case if something is true it is true, but if someone takes something true and corrupts it, then even if it speaks truth we cannot rely on it.

I rather rely on the qur'an which has not been corrupted while we KNOW the new testament is a corruption upon corruptions in editing and manipulations in the parchments and in the selective translations


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 01:26:56 PM
lol :) What a child  ;D

Jesus was but a mighty messenger of God.

Cute how you sweep under the rug the Luke incident with Jesus being tempted by the devil ;)

Continue on with the insults ahmed and your posts will be deleted.....you can converse without insults.   If you're unable to do so I'll help you along.  Got it?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:29:16 PM
Oh come on now MOS, just because you're losing arguments you want to abuse mod powers? He is indeed being childish now. He has no leverage in his arguments and is all over the place in desperation. What do you call his threads about 'mosslem kills such and such' threads. DESPERATION

He keeps repeating oh so mozlemz plagaurized revelations. Seriously the guy hasn't even read the qur'an and doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

You're both being schooled in the bible by non-christians (aside from me having been a christian). You are hanging on deseperate strings and yes being childish.

Come open and true if you seek the truth don't be so selective and pick and chose what you want when you want.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:29:55 PM
lol :) What a child  ;D

Jesus was but a mighty messenger of God.

Cute how you sweep under the rug the Luke incident with Jesus being tempted by the devil ;)

lol@plagarizing when I show you actual verses being copy pasted you don't even know I even gave you hints psalms, deuteronomy, etc... but you don't even know which parts of the Luke story or where they are from.

Just amsuing :)

And the bible and the qur'an are NOTHING a like. Oh and, the Jesus returning stuff is not in the Qur'an. It is in hadith. In either case if something is true it is true, but if someone takes something true and corrupts it, then even if it speaks truth we cannot rely on it.

I rather rely on the qur'an which has not been corrupted while we KNOW the new testament is a corruption upon corruptions in editing and manipulations in the parchments and in the selective translations

I have already addressed Jesus Christ's temptation by Satan, and I dare you to create a thread on that topic alone and I will gladly discuss it with you to your heart's desire.

So did the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
No you haven't you just swept it under the rug.

There was plagiarizing of verses in there (you brought that upon yourself). You don't even know which parts or which verse, even MOS didn't know he ASSUMED Jesus was refering to himself as GOD LOL! It was a quotation from Deutoronomy refering to an incident. And in fact the devil's statement is plagiarizing verses from psalms.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 20, 2013, 01:31:08 PM
No you haven't you just swept it under the rug.

I dare you to create a thread on that topic alone and I will gladly discuss it with you to your heart's desire.

So did the Muslims plagiarized from the book of Revelation the return of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 01:38:33 PM
Oh come on now MOS, just because you're losing arguments you want to abuse mod powers? He is indeed being childish now. He has no leverage in his arguments and is all over the place in desperation. What do you call his threads about 'mosslem kills such and such' threads. DESPERATION

He keeps repeating oh so mozlemz plagaurized revelations. Seriously the guy hasn't even read the qur'an and doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

You're both being schooled in the bible by non-christians (aside from me having been a christian). You are hanging on deseperate strings and yes being childish.

Come open and true if you seek the truth don't be so selective and pick and chose what you want when you want.

I've asked you politely for 6 months to stop with the constant jabs and insults and you've ignored that.   I care nothing about who you think you are "schooling" or how you attempt to get a rise out of folks.  You're absolutely welcome to post and discuss with others, but leave out the insults and jabs...that's all that's being asked of you.



Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:45:25 PM
Well if you had some substance to offer and not act childish, I wouldn't return the comment. You are not the one 'debating' you come in with smirky remarks yourself. Loco is the one that's being a child and you don't mind because you are a Christian yourself. For instance you let a bunch of stupid articles fly that loco posted about 'muslims' committing crimes. And that proves what exactly? I didn't mind, in the same thread I posted a christian priest doing something and you say oh but Catholics are not really Christians. Come on now. It doesn't bother me that you or him post such things but to me it yes it shows just one thing deseperation. You have no more arguments to prove anything with the trinity so you resort to such tactics.

Desperation.

Otherwise if you were sincere you wouldn't allow him to act like he does either? He has been made a fool from his ignorance and arrogance more than once but he is asking for it and he gets it. Fair is fair?

On the other hand I 'trap you' as you said. Well, if you were holding the truth, you wouldn't feel trapped. Stating "I have the holy spirit in me that's enough" is not truth. It's just an emotional utterance as well.

You didn't know the book of Luke devil incident was Jesus quoting deutoronomy. You assumed and yes I 'trapped you' that Jesus was refering to himself.

I am just illustrating how little knowledge you have of your own bible but you try to super impose your personal trinitarian beliefs upon it.

If anyone ever read the bible from cover to cover, they would not leave thinking Jesus is God.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 01:49:25 PM
Well if you had some substance to offer and not act childish, I wouldn't return the comment. You are not the one 'debating' you come in with smirky remarks yourself. Loco is the one that's being a child and you don't mind because you are a Christian yourself. For instance you let a bunch of stupid articles fly that loco posted about 'muslims' committing crimes. And that proves what exactly? I didn't mind, in the same thread I posted a christian priest doing something and you say oh but Catholics are not really Christians. Come on now. It doesn't bother me that you or him post such things but to me it yes it shows just one thing deseperation. You have no more arguments to prove anything with the trinity so you resort to such tactics.

Desperation.

Otherwise if you were sincere you wouldn't allow him to act like he does either? He has been made a fool from his ignorance and arrogance more than once but he is asking for it and he gets it. Fair is fair?

On the other hand I 'trap you' as you said. Well, if you were holding the truth, you wouldn't feel trapped. Stating "I have the holy spirit in me that's enough" is not truth. It's just an emotional utterance as well.

You didn't know the book of Luke devil incident was Jesus quoting deutoronomy. You assumed and yes I 'trapped you' that Jesus was refering to himself.

I am just illustrating how little knowledge you have of your own bible but you try to super impose your personal trinitarian beliefs upon it.

If anyone ever read the bible from cover to cover, they would not leave thinking Jesus is God.

If you disagree with my beliefs that's not a problem.  You can freely post that all day long provided you can do it without insults. 

Are you able to do that?


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:51:45 PM
Define insult? I call him childish?  ??? When he's acting childish I'll call him for it.

If he has any proof or facts we can discuss we can try. I guess the best he can do after all these arguments is to say "oh but then you mosslemz plagiarised revelations". He hasn't even read the qur'an, he doesn't even know that's not in the qur'an but hey! We're hearing to clear it up.

That's jumping like a grass hopper :)  You both have failed to prove the trinity from the bible that's what all these threads are about.

Loco even resorted to trying to prove the trinity by quoting a hadith LOL. Come on now? Feel free, but you're not proving it thus far.

Like I said, if anyone not influenced by you or loco or the chuch were to read the bible cover to cover, they would not leave thinking Jesus is God.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
Define insult? I call him childish?  ??? When he's acting childish I'll call him for it.

If he has any proof or facts we can discuss we can try. I guess the best he can do after all these arguments is to say "oh but then you mosslemz plagiarised revelations". He hasn't even read the qur'an, he doesn't even know that's not in the qur'an but hey! We're hearing to clear it up.

That's jumping like a grass hopper :)  You both have failed to prove the trinity from the bible that's what all these threads are about.

Loco even resorted to trying to prove the trinity by quoting a hadith LOL. Come on now? Feel free, but you're not proving it thus far.

Like I said, if anyone not influenced by you or loco or the chuch were to read the bible cover to cover, they would not leave thinking Jesus is God.

You know what an insult is.  Can you continue discussions on this board without insults and jabs?  All that is needed is either a reply of "yes" or "no".

I won't allow it from others or myself either.....I'm tired of it.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 01:57:50 PM
You know what an insult is.  Can you continue discussions on this board without insults and jabs?  All that is needed is either a reply of "yes" or "no".

I won't allow it from others or myself either.....I'm tired of it.

Define insult or show me an example of an insult? If you don't want to take part in the debate or have anything to offer you don't have to be a part of it.

No one is cussing or swearing at the other thus far (Jon harden lol that gimmick) was the exception. Loco in the beginning DID go at it "you satan worshippers, Muhammad was a satan worshipper" etc.. too but we cleared that up.

Like I already said you let him post more than one stupid article after he gets infuriated that he can't prove the trinity to take 'jabs' at islam (primarily) by talking about some idiot muslims (yes muslims commit crimes like all mankind) and that's okay, actually personally i don't mind, but ?

I guess you're searching for that insult of mine.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 01:58:31 PM
Define insult or show me an example of an insult?

Yes or no ahmed, last chance


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 02:03:42 PM
Give me one example of insulting someone on here in the past week? Close ended questions are 'trapping' aren't they? I thought you didn't like answering that yourself why the double standard?

Remember when you refused to answer your own statement about Catholics not being true christians? You didn't want to answer me yes or no.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 20, 2013, 02:24:15 PM

Give me one example of insulting someone on here in the past week? Close ended questions are 'trapping' aren't they? I thought you didn't like answering that yourself why the double standard?

Remember when you refused to answer your own statement about Catholics not being true christians? You didn't want to answer me yes or no.

Well, I guess we'll see if you stop or not.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 20, 2013, 02:29:29 PM
Well, I guess we'll see if you stop or not.

So you're accusing me of something without being able to produce evidence? And threatening me "if I do". Interesting...


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 08:50:34 AM
So you're accusing me of something without being able to produce evidence? And threatening me "if I do". Interesting...

All you have to do is play nice ahmed.  No additional jabs or insults.  Jabs and insults do nothing to help advance the conversation…it often stops it dead in its tracks.

He was quoting the OT not referring ::) to himself. Because people used to say the same thing we'll do such and such and God will save us. So if Jesus listened to satan's 'advice' of committing suicide and then letting God save him if he is truly God's servant, but that would be 'tempting' God just like the examples in OT where people would try to act in such a manner.

Why would God be tempted by his own creation, think for a second and use your brain seriously.

Anyways.

Muhammad (pbuh) also uttered "your sins are forgiven" on numerous accounts.

Prophets can assure people of forgiveness as they receive divine revelation and are in contact with God as their representatives on earth.

That does not make them God.

Stop being childish, it's making you look pathetic "are you saying Jesus is a liar". You are being pathetic and childish seriously. Absolute desperation on your part. I've been sarcastic in response to your things but you're not even arguing with facts anymore, just desperation.

#1 The books we have in the bible are not authored by Jesus nor authored by anyone near Jesus and we know they've been tampered with.

Want one small mind bursting fact? The prostitute incident, a story created was it 400 years after or was it 700 years after? So it was not Jesus' words.

#2 Jesus also said he does these things granted through the power of God and it's stated as such.

Was Moses God? Because he could turn a staff into a snake? Or make his hand shine under his garment?

It's pretty simple how can God be tempted by his own creation to commit a sin? Do you not even think? And God being weak and vulnerable to the devil? Seriously

The context of it is as per old testament 'tempting God' in the sense that you are saying hey I'll kill myself but because I believe in God he will save me. Or something along those lines.

Jesus and Muhammad are not equal. Jesus was at the time sent to the children of israel. Muhammad was sent to deliver a message for all mankind. Jesus is also chosen to return to kill the false messiah.

Likewise Abraham had a purpose. Isac and Ishmael had a purpose. Jacob had a purpose. Moses had a purpose. Adam and his wife Eve had a purpose. All of them had their specific tasks. God's plan as it is whether you like these things or not. They are the way they are.

And now you're sounding like a clown copy pasting Jesus> Jesus> Jesus>. We don't deem one superior to another they are the best of mankind as chosen by God for their specific tasks.

Oh MOS, stop being angry it's irrational. Ascertain the truth, don't defend your beliefs blindly.

Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.


Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.

So Jesus cried to be saved from death!

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.


You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.

Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:

1. No one has to die for God to forgive
2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.
3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.

And we can go on.

The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same

I didn't become a Muslim from reading a few cliche lines from the bible. I became Muslim by reading the whole bible. That's how truth is ascertained, not by a few selective verses like you do. You delibereately ignore the verses I post as they change what you're trying to paint and put forward.


I've asked you for 6 months to stop (both prior to becoming a mod and now as a mod).  I'm sure you find these comments harmless, but I'm politely letting you know they are not harmless.  Like I mentioned, feel free to contribute, disagree, agree, share your beliefs and post as much as you'd like.....just keep the unnecessary jabs and insults to yourself....that's it.  I will continue to remove the anti-Islam comments and anything that is insulting or reported to moderator.  I will also ask others to leave the insults out of discussions as well.  If someone does insult and I miss it just let me know and it will be handled.  As I mentioned yesterday, I will do my level best to keep my thoughts in check as well...it goes both ways and I should be held accountable as well.  If I have offended you then I apologize and will my best to not offend going forward.

Honestly, is it too much to ask to be respectful even when we disagree?  If you don't share my beliefs that's just fine, but I don't need you to include a comment to "use my brain" or "don't you know how to think" or "stop being pathetic" or "quit being desperate" or "stop acting like a clown"....ad nauseum for at least 6 months.  Most of the time I quite responding when your replies begin to include such statements because I know the conversation has instantly degraded and anything I post thereafter will be met with similar responses....that's often why your comments are left unanswered by me.  

I would actually enjoy continuing to engage you in healthy conversation....even if we disagree at every turn.  


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 10:28:52 AM
You call that insults? Wow lol. And it would help give context and perspective if you posted what I was responding to.

The being childish comment for example was loco pasting over and over again every post after another post

Jesus>Muhammad
Jesus>Muhammad
Jesus>Muhammad

etc...

It indeed is childish and not proving anything but being childish.

Just one example.

The other one where you were getting angry you were starting to get irritated because you were not able to provide any evidence to your argument and I was providing evidence to the contrary from the bible. You lost it for a moment and I said stop getting angry and getting irrational.

Notice I always focus on using the bible, rarely do I talk about the qur'an because you're not even interested in the first place. I did however post certain things about Islam's view on God's mercy and that was about it.

Instead of providing evidence for arguments loco for instance has resorted to childish manoverous and I'll call him out for it. It's not insults even if you 'see it' as an insult.

I already said, him creating multiple threads about Muslims committing crimes (okay for what argument to show that Islam is of zee devilz and evil?!) was another example of being pretty pathetic and childsih.

You are failing to prove your arguments so you resort to such tactics and again I am calling it out for what it is.

Now you're losing it and because you're a mod threatening me. No, that's just you losing arguments here. We can continue to debate and not threaten each other with silly things.

I will call loco out for what he does if he continues to do it, it's not insults unless you consider losing an argument an insult.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2013, 11:51:58 AM
It's okay, Man of Steel.  I can take it, and I don't mind.  This is how a_ahmed is, he resorts to insults as soon as he runs out of arguments, which happens very often.

a_ahmed acts like this on the Nutrition board too, and he has been warned by the mods there too.

Man of Steel, I realize you are just doing your job as mod and you are doing a great job, as you did with Jon Harridan when he was insulting the Muslims.  a_ahmed doesn't want equal treatment here.  He wants special treatment.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 12:19:33 PM
It's okay, Man of Steel.  I can take it, and I don't mind.  This is how a_ahmed is, he resorts to insults as soon as he runs out of arguments, which happens very often.

a_ahmed acts like this on the Nutrition board too, and he has been warned by the mods there too.

Man of Steel, I realize you are just doing your job as mod and you are doing a great job, as you did with Jon Harridan when he was insulting the Muslims.  a_ahmed doesn't want equal treatment here.  He wants special treatment.

Nutrition board? Oh yes, because someone was being cynical to me back and forth for posting about supplements I call them a tool for being cynical I'm the bad guy. He kept ridiculing certain supplements without providing any proof himself that they are not worth it, while evidence is on the contrary. Sarcasm was being lame there. It was wow coming in every thread being sarcastic. That I do not excuse myself for.

Yes I took a jab at 33386 do you even work out, because all he does is have angry rants in the politics section about democrats lol. That was uncalled for fine I admit this I should have refrained from and I appologized. He pokes at everyone but rules are different in politics section vs nutrition section vs gossip section etc... It did not relate to the thread and was unecessary on my part.

Back to you ::) So, I guess you think that losing an argument is insulting you? Sarcasm much? I never insult Jesus, I love Jesus. I argue with you using the bible alone. For whatever you argue for, I present you opposing verses. Insulting huh?

Special treatment huh? You're a hypocrite, what about your behaviour? In the beginning you came in hear screaming "islam is of the devil", "muhammad was a devil worshipper", and then you subsided as it make you look like a fool. In fact I thought Jon Harden was you after you were filled with rage and unable to debate anymore as it reminded me of your previous statements.

Speaking of special treatment. You are losing the argument so this is the tactics you are using now huh? Mos should keep quiet if he doesn't want to be in any debate. As he himself said he won't respond to me anymore as we were not seeing eye to eye on the beliefs and he just kept saying "ya" in sarcasm. That does not mean because he is a christian and he favors you as a mod that he can abuse his powers either.

It's not special treatment on my part. You want to debate, fine, that's what we've been doing, however when you start losing the debate and arguments you resort to childish tactics.

Tell me how were you proving your arguments by posting threads about 'muslims' committing crimes? You are unable to prove your arguments so you resort to something like that. Weak indeed. You've created numerous such threads with what point to prove in your arguments? It goes back to your islam is satanic, islam is of the devil crap. So please, keep your hypocrisy to yourself.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 12:26:31 PM
Oh yes in case you have a short term memory both of you.

Both threads created less than a week ago:

N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife

UK Muslim mom kills boy for not memorizing Quran


What did I call it as? Desperation. Yes that's an insult too of course.

You guys are hypocrites and losing the arguments thus resorting to such weak tactics.

Lets spare the childish non-sense and continue the debates in the threads. It seems you're intimidated and want me gone that's about it.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
You call that insults? Wow lol. And it would help give context and perspective if you posted what I was responding to.

The being childish comment for example was loco pasting over and over again every post after another post

Jesus>Muhammad
Jesus>Muhammad
Jesus>Muhammad

etc...

It indeed is childish and not proving anything but being childish.

Just one example.

The other one where you were getting angry you were starting to get irritated because you were not able to provide any evidence to your argument and I was providing evidence to the contrary from the bible. You lost it for a moment and I said stop getting angry and getting irrational.

Notice I always focus on using the bible, rarely do I talk about the qur'an because you're not even interested in the first place. I did however post certain things about Islam's view on God's mercy and that was about it.

Instead of providing evidence for arguments loco for instance has resorted to childish manoverous and I'll call him out for it. It's not insults even if you 'see it' as an insult.

I already said, him creating multiple threads about Muslims committing crimes (okay for what argument to show that Islam is of zee devilz and evil?!) was another example of being pretty pathetic and childsih.

You are failing to prove your arguments so you resort to such tactics and again I am calling it out for what it is.

Now you're losing it and because you're a mod threatening me. No, that's just you losing arguments here. We can continue to debate and not threaten each other with silly things.

I will call loco out for what he does if he continues to do it, it's not insults unless you consider losing an argument an insult.

I'm failing to prove my arguments?   I'm gettin angry and irrational?  I'm losing it?  I'm threatening you?  Really??

I'm doing my job as a mod of this board.   This isn't the G&O, Politics or Sex board....members of this board are simply held to a higher standard.  I've asked you politely to stop and told you that if you don't I will be forced to delete your posts...that's my job as mod.   I really don't know how to help you otherwise.  I've deleted all your reported posts and threads, I've catered to the Muslims on this board when I didn't have to and have eliminated more anti-Islamic posts and threads than every Muslims on this board has fingers and toes to collectively count with.  I deleted more stuff than was ever asked of me.  I've aggregated your threads and stickied them so they wouldn't be lost in the Getbig void of threads.  I've entertained so many PMs from members asking that you be banned from Getbig...and I've repeatedly defended you! 

Again, I don't know how to help you ahmed or make you understand.....I don't think I can.   







Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 12:32:15 PM
Decided to stop and answer some of you lingering objections ahmed.  You often cite the contradicting accounts of created light in Genesis, the tempting of Christ and Paul's contradicting conversion accounts.  

Hope this helps:

Creation of light in Genesis:  On day 1 God created the heavens and the earth.  He then said, “let there be light” on day one and in doing so he established day from night.  This notion lends itself to the scientific theory of angular momentum in that when the earth was formed it was created by a spinning mass of gases and material that maintains the same spinning momentum today that it did during creation.  The earth spins on its axis facing towards and away from the sun during a 24-hour period distinquishing day and night respectively.  The gravitational pull of the sun causes the earth to rotate around it while the angular momentum from creation caused the earth to spin on its axis.  That said, the earth and sun (part of the heavens) were both created on day one, but the “let there be light” comment indicates the first penetration or appearance or visibility of the sun’s light through earth’s recently formed atmosphere (firmament) that was initially full of spinning debris and gas (clouding the view of the heavens).  Then on day 4 the earth was continuing to be formed and shaped and the atmosphere (firmament) further cleared.  Remember, the heavens and earth were created on day one, but the “let there be” phrase does not indicate further creation….it indicates the greater visibility of light emitted from previously created heavenly bodies through earth’s atmosphere.  Although, Genesis 1:16 indicates that God “made two great lights” and thereinlies some confusion.  The English word “made” comes from the Hebrew “asah” which can be translated “had made” (a past tense reference).  Given that, the two great lights referenced were already made on day one with the creation of the “heavens and earth”.    The light producing celestial bodies on day four (that were created on day one) were more visible through earth’s clearing atmosphere on day four as the earth was continuing to be formed.
    
Jesus’ temptation: The first idea we must acknowledge is that God (who is one) limited his Sonship essence/personhood into that of a man in Jesus Christ who was born by the Holy Spirit and lived as a sinless, mortal man on Earth.  Christ’s plan on earth was to live and die as the perfect, sinless sacrifice for all of us.  He was fully a human man with all the limitations therein, but he drew strength, guidance and power from his Fatherly essence/personhood in heaven.  That said, he prayed, worked, hungered, thirsted and was even tempted by Satan as any man on Earth, but make no mistake he was no ordinary man.  Satan sought to tempt the man Jesus Christ, but was does it mean to tempt?  It means he tested the temporarily limited God-man Jesus Christ in hopes that Christ would fall prey to the temptation and sin, but Christ defended himself with nothing but the word by referencing the old testament scripture indicating that you “do not test the Lord your God” thereby defending himself and affirming the reality of who he was to Satan…..he is God.   Satan left shortly thereafter and the man Jesus Christ who has affirmed that he was God was them tended to and comforted by the angels because he was still a mortal man at that point.  

Yes, Christ did forgive some sins without his shedblood on the cross, but those acts were special displays of his mercy and grace.  The reality is Christ died for us, shed his blood for us so that we may in turn desire to choose him as our Lord and Savior.  He wants us to recognize our own faults, repent of our sins, acknowledge him as God, Lord and Savior, be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and live our lives according to his divine will for our lives.   If Christ simply forgave us with no effort on our parts what hope is there that we would be truly repentant and seek his will for our lives thereafter?   A “get outta jail free” card doesn’t help us move towards a true changing of our minds about sin…that’s why it’s so important that we acknowledge Christ’s act on calvary’s cross and what that means for the remainder of our earthly life and all of eternity.

Paul’s conflicting accounts in Acts:   First off, we need to understand that Paul did not write the book of Acts which details the separate accounts of his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus.  Paul’s companion and physician Luke wrote the book of Acts.  That said, any confusing language is attributable to Luke not Paul; regardless, the “contradicting accounts” are easily reconcilable if an explanation of the source language (Greek) is provided.   That said, the primary contradiction often referred to is the notion of both “hearing the voice” and “not hearing the voice” in two separate accounts.   The reconciliation comes in understanding the use of the Greek word “akouo” which means “hearing”.  When the voice was heard the genitive case of “akouo” is used which means they heard a sound.  When the voice was not heard it refers to accusative case of “akouo” which means that the voice was heard but not understood.  Theology has often cited that Luke was very accurate and specific in the use of language so the alternative use of the Greek translated “akouo” reconciles the initial contradiction into definite non-contradiction.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
Oh yes in case you have a short term memory both of you.

Both threads created less than a week ago:

N.Y. Muslim Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife

UK Muslim mom kills boy for not memorizing Quran


What did I call it as? Desperation. Yes that's an insult too of course.

You guys are hypocrites and losing the arguments thus resorting to such weak tactics.

Lets spare the childish non-sense and continue the debates in the threads. It seems you're intimidated and want me gone that's about it.

There is nothing wrong with this.  It's news.  Are you trying to sensor the news?    ::)

These were posted in response to your claim that Christianity is for the emotional, dumb and uneducated while Islam is for the educated intellectuals.  They are also in response to your claim that in Islam, only "village idiots" do these kinds of things.    ::)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 12:50:56 PM
There is nothing wrong with this.  It's news.  Are you trying to sensor the news?    ::)

These were in response to your claim that Christianity is for the emotional, dumb and uneducated while Islam is for the educated intellectuals.  They are also in response to your claim that in Islam, only village idiots do these kinds of things.    ::)

Nope it's just showing hypocrisy and your desperation.

You were angry that you could not prove your arguments so you resort to posting some articles that are suppose to make Muslims and Islam look bad  ::). And again what do the actions of an individual plus contrary to Islam's teachings have anything to do with Islam? Likewise I responded and posted articles of Christians doing something but Mos said well they are not really Christians because they are catholic.

you're the one opening a can of whoops ass each time for yourself, so when you're served back you whine and mos comes to your rescue.

The same with your ridicule of the qur'an being 'in arabic' and how i responded about it actually being a living language unlike koine-greek, latin, aramaic, ancient hebrew, etc... and the qur'an despite being in arabic memorized by millions today.

Likewise with your ridicule of the qur'an/islam plagarizing the bible. The qur'an and bible are nothing alike. Nothing. It shows you have not read the qur'an. The fact that 'same characters' or issues are mentioned does not mean its plagarized otherwise Jesus would have plagarized from Moses, Moses from Abraham, etc... etc... you get the idea. There is only one God and he has sent messengers and prophets over and over again.

These are not even arguments, that's why I call them desperate tactics on your end and I call you out for it. Especially when suddenly it switches from the topic.

Not much better than your initial slanders of Islam is of the devil type statements and Muhammad was a satan worshipper. Not that much different than Jon Harden now was it?

All of these were grass hopper, hopping around when you can't prove an argument you resort to these silly things.

Tell me what is the point of saying

Jesus>Muhammad and copy pasting it like ten times over and over again? Are you proving anything or being immature? I called you out for it as well.

Come on now grow up. You two back each other up and just because Mos is a mod doesn't mean he can get away with it, even though to be fair, Mos has been of good character most of the time, loco you have not from the get go.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2013, 01:04:15 PM
Nope it's just showing hypocrisy and your desperation.

You were angry that you could not prove your arguments so you resort to posting some articles that are suppose to make Muslims and Islam look bad  ::). And again what do the actions of an individual plus contrary to Islam's teachings have anything to do with Islam? Likewise I responded and posted articles of Christians doing something but Mos said well they are not really Christians because they are catholic.

you're the one opening a can of whoops ass each time for yourself, so when you're served back you whine and mos comes to your rescue.

The same with your ridicule of the qur'an being 'in arabic' and how i responded about it actually being a living language unlike koine-greek, latin, aramaic, ancient hebrew, etc... and the qur'an despite being in arabic memorized by millions today.

Likewise with your ridicule of the qur'an/islam plagarizing the bible. The qur'an and bible are nothing alike. Nothing. It shows you have not read the qur'an. The fact that 'same characters' or issues are mentioned does not mean its plagarized otherwise Jesus would have plagarized from Moses, Moses from Abraham, etc... etc... you get the idea. There is only one God and he has sent messengers and prophets over and over again.

These are not even arguments, that's why I call them desperate tactics on your end and I call you out for it.

Not much better than your initial slanders of Islam is of the devil type statements and Muhammad was a satan worshipper. Not that much different than Jon Harden now was it?

All of these were grass hopper, hopping around when you can't prove an argument you resort to these silly things.

Tell me what is the point of saying

Jesus>Muhammad and copy pasting it like ten times over and over again? Are you proving anything or being immature? I called you out for it as well.

Come on now grow up. You two back each other up and just because Mos is a mod doesn't mean he can get away with it, even though to be fair, Mos has been of good character most of the time, loco you have not from the get go.

Sorry you feel this way.  I am simply making legitimate arguments and posting facts.  It is not my intention to ridicule Islam by posting facts about its followers.  It is not my intention to ridicule Islam by asking legitimate questions about your religion and pointing out contradictions, error and plagiarism.  

Unlike you, I have not insulted you personally, not once.  Unlike you, I have not once questioned your intelligence and/or ability to "use your brain."   Only you resort to personal attacks often when you run out of arguments.  That's why mods in multiple boards have warned you.  


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 01:21:20 PM
lol at legitimate arguments.  ;D

Funny guy indeed. Well I stated what I stated calling you out for what you're doing. Feel free to continue and I'll continue to call you out for it. But lets be fair and your special treatment by Mos when you cry out to him when you're called out for it.

You are not making legitimate arguments, when you're losing arguments you're resorting to these weak tactics I posted about.

For instance in your claim that only through Jesus dying are sins forgiven, I gave you bible verses illustrating the contrary. That is a valid argument. You swerving off topic or in desperation creating threads to make muslims or islam look bad is not an argument.

It's very weak, because I could be like you and post all day about what 'christians do', but that's not an argument, that's being immature. I only ever so responded to you in your thread by posting a priest what he did to a nun otherwise I wouldn't go out of my way to look for these things and post them, I stick to the arguments and topics at hand.

Yes use your brain, God gave us intellect. It doesn't take a lot to think for a brief moment, that an individual who commits a crime (contrary to the teachings of Islam) does not represent Islam but is an individual sinful action. You are losing your argument on that very basis as well by posting such threads. It's not smart one bit.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
lol at legitimate arguments.  ;D

Funny guy indeed. Well I stated what I stated calling you out for what you're doing. Feel free to continue and I'll continue to call you out for it. But lets be fair and your special treatment by Mos when you cry out to him when you're called out for it.

You are not making legitimate arguments, when you're losing arguments you're resorting to these weak tactics I posted about.

For instance in your claim that only through Jesus dying are sins forgiven, I gave you bible verses illustrating the contrary. That is a valid argument. You swerving off topic or in desperation creating threads to make muslims or islam look bad is not an argument.

It's very weak, because I could be like you and post all day about what 'christians do', but that's not an argument, that's being immature. I only ever so responded to you in your thread by posting a priest what he did to a nun otherwise I wouldn't go out of my way to look for these things and post them, I stick to the arguments and topics at hand.

Yes use your brain, God gave us intellect. It doesn't take a lot to think for a brief moment, that an individual who commits a crime (contrary to the teachings of Islam) does not represent Islam but is an individual sinful action. You are losing your argument on that very basis as well by posting such threads. It's not smart one bit.

You've received more personal attention from the religion board mods than every member of the religion board combined.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2013, 01:34:16 PM
You've received more personal attention from the religion board mods than every member of the religion board combined.

a_ahmed does not want equal treatment.  He wants special treatment.  He is one angry individual, resorting to personal attacks and insults in this and in other boards.  He's a pain in the rear to mods in all boards he has had a presence.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 01:45:42 PM
You've received more personal attention from the religion board mods than every member of the religion board combined.
I'm also the most active member on this board.

And it seems loco enjoys special treatment as a christian. Hey just remember, it is God who will judge us all ;) And can see straight through you and me with whatever you plot or intend :)

I will keep my arguments to the topic at hand, while if you chose to swerve off topic, I will call you out for it whether you like it or not. You can hide behind Mos all you want loco, but it shows that you guys are not able to argue or debate sometimes and need to resort to this.

Lol at me being filled with anger :) Loco, it's not me who goes out of his way to create threads to show what chrisitans comit crimes to make myself 'feel better' when I'm losing an arugment :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 01:51:58 PM
I'm also the most active member on this board.

And it seems loco enjoys special treatment as a christian. Hey just remember, it is God who will judge us all ;) And can see straight through you and me with whatever you plot or intend :)

I will keep my arguments to the topic at hand, while if you chose to swerve off topic, I will call you out for it whether you like it or not. You can hide behind Mos all you want loco, but it shows that you guys are not able to argue or debate sometimes and need to resort to this.

Lol at me being filled with anger :) Loco, it's not me who goes out of his way to create threads to show what chrisitans comit crimes to make myself 'feel better' when I'm losing an arugment :)

You back up true or "bobbers" anytime they post because you are all Muslim.   When loco posts I agree with his perspective as a Christian.....simple as that.  You're attempting to create a scenario that doesn't exist to help lend credibility to your argument.   :) :) :)

The only double standard on this board from "mod to member" is the excess attention you receive that others don't.    :) :) :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: loco on February 21, 2013, 01:57:20 PM
I'm also the most active member on this board.

And it seems loco enjoys special treatment as a christian. Hey just remember, it is God who will judge us all ;) And can see straight through you and me with whatever you plot or intend :)

I will keep my arguments to the topic at hand, while if you chose to swerve off topic, I will call you out for it whether you like it or not. You can hide behind Mos all you want loco, but it shows that you guys are not able to argue or debate sometimes and need to resort to this.

Lol at me being filled with anger :) Loco, it's not me who goes out of his way to create threads to show what chrisitans comit crimes to make myself 'feel better' when I'm losing an arugment :)

Well, you are the one annoying the heck out of the mods in this and in other boards, not me.

You are the one resorting to personal attacks and insults, not me.

I am the one calling you out, whether you like it or not.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 02:53:16 PM
Tell me loco, how did me misspelling devil as devli and you being sarcastic, contribute in any discussion :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Man of Steel on February 21, 2013, 03:01:38 PM
Tell me loco, how did me misspelling devil as devli and you being sarcastic, contribute in any discussion :)

Reasonable question.  My answer: it didn't.

I'd then pose a second question to you:

Tell me ahmed, how did you telling me and/or loco to "use my brain" or "don't you know how to think" or "stop being pathetic" or "quit being desperate" or "stop acting like a clown" contribute in any discussion :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on February 21, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Reasonable question.  My answer: it didn't.

I'd then pose a second question to you:

Tell me ahmed, how did you telling me and/or loco to "use my brain" or "don't you know how to think" or "stop being pathetic" or "quit being desperate" or "stop acting like a clown" contribute in any discussion :)


By pointing out how your statement wasn't contributing at all. Calling you out. Just as I called you out again on quoting me misspelling devil LOL

Don't start beef and don't expect beef lol. I don't just spontaneously say stop being childish, stop acting like a clown. You do something to begin with.

Imagine I troll a thread with

Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus
Muhammad>Jesus


Over and over again, that would be retarded, plus it's not true of us as Muslims, we don't believe in acting like that, nor in saying one is better than the other. You resorting to such tactics on the other hand just shows your own tact. So yes I call it pathetic and childish, stupid too.

To us all messengers=all messengers. As given to the task by God.

Jesus was awesome
Abraham was awesome
Muhammad was awesome
Moses was awesome
Jacob was awesome
Job was awesome

Etc... that's how we view it.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Rhino on July 22, 2013, 11:19:44 PM
in arabic god is allah... issa is jesus (pbuh) go away anglo :(


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Rhino on July 23, 2013, 05:56:57 PM
Jesus is the way. Islam is a nice story that comes after. Just take it for what it is. It was all copied anyway. Today plagarism would be the word that best describes... Not divine instruction. Experts agree... Islam is nothing more than a cult and a dangerous one at that. Love ALLAH forget islam as divinity... Islam is not divine nor the way... We are all sinners and Jesus will save all man kind and walks the earth :)


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: a_ahmed on July 23, 2013, 09:00:09 PM
Loco you're lame. Get a real hobby.


Title: Re: Muslim Narratioin: From The Very Beginning, Christians Believed Jesus Is Allah?
Post by: Rhino on July 24, 2013, 10:48:12 AM
Loco = crazy = espanol :) you speak spanish man? Hola :) hasta la vista... Baby :) lol