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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Nutrition, Products & Supplements Info => Topic started by: DroppingPlates on February 16, 2013, 05:02:33 AM
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Is its high price -about two times a normal whey product- worth taking it, right after training like George Farah advocates it, or should I stick with some BCAA's?
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sounds like marketing to me
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No scientific references included, but poster tells about its dark side :-\
(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_hydrolyzed_protein_bad_for_you)
Is hydrolyzed protein bad for you?
Answer:
Answer (There are two view points here, read both)
Yes, it is bad for you. Hydrolyzed protein in products indicates the prescence of MSG or monosodium glutamate. Recent findings have found monosodium glutamate to cause brain lesions, brain neuron death, obesity and diabetes in mice. (what is your reference?) Other studies indicated that foods containing this chemical cause drastic rises in blood sugar levels, what this amounts to is feeling very hungry, only a short time after eating. (reference?) You can see how this would play a role in obesity. The FDA is able to label foods as "free of added MSG", because with hydrolyzed protein, disodium guanylate, and disodium isoinate, the MSG is naturally occurring.
Difference of Opinions
PROTEIN HYDROLYSATE AND GLUTAMATE ARE NOT TOXIC!
If you did some real research in a Physiology Text you would discover that all protein is hydrolyzed (digested) by enzymes in your gut to its component amino acids. Protein is made up of about 20 amino acids, eight of them essential. Aproximately 25-30 percent of any protein is a combination of two amino acids, glutamic and aspartic. If you eat a minimum of 60 grams of protein per day, roughly the RDA for a 140 lb person, digestion will release into you blood approximately 10 grams of glutamate (MSG component) and 5 grams of aspartate (Aspartame component). The liver and blood brain barrier regulate how much of these amino acids enter the brain tissue. And also regulates how your blood glucose rises in response to the meal. If it didn't we might be in serious trouble, but fortunately it does. Eating a well balanced diet with plenty of fruit and vegetables, low in saturated fat, with the right number of calories to balance your exercise, will keep you healthy and trim.
Another View Point
Hydrolyzed protein is a common ingredient normally found in food, but it is highly toxic. Research for yourself. SEE BELOW
Hydrolyzed protein IS one of the best proteins one can get, brain neuron death, obesity and diabetes IS A LOT OF TOSH!
hydrol... whey protein is even used in hospitals for greater and faster recovery!
it is one of the best suppl..... a bodybuilder can use, due too it being partly predigested
"into the amino acid structure needed for muscle growth. iam a bodybuilder and use hydro.... protein, and have been for ages,
insulin levels do rise ect, but this is a good thing for a bodybu..... taken with fast carbs after a workout. That is the only time an insulin spike along with hydr... protein is needed to shuttle the protein into the muscles. a chocolate bar will do more harm than a drink of hydro... whey protein" i would rather have hydrol.... and weight train.
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Is its high price -about two times a normal whey product- worth taking it, right after training like George Farah advocates it, or should I stick with some BCAA's?
Hydrolization is an expensive process. I read a study that traced hydrolyzed casein molecules through digestion. They found a faster transit than whole part casein, but unfortunately, a substantial amount of the amino content was destroyed during the rapid digestion process. Basically, the costly process resulted in faster, but less complete amino delivery.
I honestly don't know if the same would hold true for whey.
Regardless, whey is pretty fast-absorbing as it is. I don't know that a hydrolyzed form is meritted. Maybe it is; maybe it isn't. If you want to achieve faster blood delivery, consider consuming your whey drink before your workout is completed. That will give it a head start. I actually prefer consuming my carb drink, BCAA's, and creatine before training. It's given me much better results than waiting until after.
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Hydrolization is an expensive process. I read a study that traced hydrolyzed casein molecules through digestion. They found a faster transit than whole part casein, but unfortunately, a substantial amount of the amino content was destroyed during the rapid digestion process. Basically, the costly process resulted in faster, but less complete amino delivery.
I honestly don't know if the same would hold true for whey.
Regardless, whey is pretty fast-absorbing as it is. I don't know that a hydrolyzed form is meritted. Maybe it is; maybe it isn't. If you want to achieve faster blood delivery, consider consuming your whey drink before your workout is completed. That will give it a head start. I actually prefer consuming my carb drink, BCAA's, and creatine before training. It's given me much better results than waiting until after.
Interesting read Montague, thanks for sharing. So it seems that the current hydrolization methods might be unsafe and noneffective.
I decided to try a 97% whey isolate by taking 2 scoops pre- and 2 post workout (pre with some carbs, post without carbs, I'll eat them 30 mins later).
I've tried BCAA's in the past (post wo) and I noticed a slightly better recovery, but I prefer a complete amino acid spectrum, just to make sure.
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Interesting read Montague, thanks for sharing. So it seems that the current hydrolization methods might be unsafe and noneffective.
I decided to try a 97% whey isolate by taking 2 scoops pre- and 2 post workout (pre with some carbs, post without carbs, I'll eat them 30 mins later).
I've tried BCAA's in the past (post wo) and I noticed a slightly better recovery, but I prefer a complete amino acid spectrum, just to make sure.
Oh, yeah - full spectrum amino's are a must. A good balanced diet will provide most of that. The Branched chain's are most critical for protein synthesis, which is why I believe in using additional amounts around workouts.
If you want to really split hairs, Leucine plays the biggest synthesizing role, and HMB is the primary metabolite of Leucine. I've used HMB in the past and was quite happy with it. I was going to use it in lieu of BCAA's when my current supply runs out, but I may instead just add it.
Straight Leucine powder is also available, but you'll have to take more of it to achieve the effects of the more concentrated HMB.
Personally, I feel that my money would be better spent on either of those instead of any hydrolyzed protein products.
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Oh, yeah - full spectrum amino's are a must. A good balanced diet will provide most of that. The Branched chain's are most critical for protein synthesis, which is why I believe in using additional amounts around workouts.
If you want to really split hairs, Leucine plays the biggest synthesizing role, and HMB is the primary metabolite of Leucine. I've used HMB in the past and was quite happy with it. I was going to use it in lieu of BCAA's when my current supply runs out, but I may instead just add it.
Straight Leucine powder is also available, but you'll have to take more of it to achieve the effects of the more concentrated HMB.
Personally, I feel that my money would be better spent on either of those instead of any hydrolyzed protein products.
money is better saved and spent on steak & chicken IMO
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i live by my words
42oz of chicken so far today....
back to tilapia tomorrow
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money is better saved and spent on steak & chicken IMO
Maybe 'spent', but not 'saved'.
Here's some math, over here in Europe 100 grams of protein from whey concentrate is about 1.15, isolate is 1.55, while an egg is 2.27 and chicken is 2.84. The American/Canadian prices might differ from this but prob not that much.
Other than this, there is the convenience factor; I eat 6 meals per day with a busy schedule.
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money is better saved and spent on steak & chicken IMO
Food goes without saying.
In regards to supplements, I feel BCAA's carry greater merit than hydrolyzed proteins.
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Maybe 'spent', but not 'saved'.
Here's some math, over here in Europe 100 grams of protein from whey concentrate is about 1.15, isolate is 1.55, while an egg is 2.27 and chicken is 2.84. The American/Canadian prices might differ from this but prob not that much.
Other than this, there is the convenience factor; I eat 6 meals per day with a busy schedule.
i keep it simple...
2-3 meals... big ones
and a shake in the AM
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I have found that carbs pre and intra workout are all thats needed. Post workout i rarely if ever get carbs only protein.
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I have found that carbs pre and intra workout are all thats needed. Post workout i rarely if ever get carbs only protein.
I like fruit before/during workouts. I training the morning. I usually have an orange with my Creatine.
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I DO 2/4 SCOOPS WHEY PER DAY AROUND 2/3 MEALS PER DAY ,SO 5 PROTEIN MEALS SOMETIMES 6,,
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I like fruit before/during workouts. I training the morning. I usually have an orange with my Creatine.
Check into that, brother. I've read that orange juice denatures creatine.
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Check into that, brother. I've read that orange juice denatures creatine.
I eat the orange and take the Creatine in water about 30-45 minutes later to be precise. I do this with the hope that the it coincides with peak blood sugar.
Then I have coffee about an hour later at the end of my workout. Then a shake.
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I eat the orange and take the Creatine in water about 30-45 minutes later to be precise. I do this with the hope that the it coincides with peak blood sugar.
Then I have coffee about an hour later at the end of my workout. Then a shake.
It's my understanding that creatine has a longer transit time through digestion than carbs.
Also, why do you consume the coffee after your training rather than taking advantage of the caffeine push for the exercise?
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It's my understanding that creatine has a longer transit time through digestion than carbs.
Also, why do you consume the coffee after your training rather than taking advantage of the caffeine push for the exercise?
having just woken up i don't need a push...
i typically only have 1 coffee and then oolong tea all day
not sure about creatine... i've read conflicting things... i also consume 5g at noon and 5g at night...
creatine is safe/cheap so i figure i can afford to hit it
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Is its high price -about two times a normal whey product- worth taking it, right after training like George Farah advocates it, or should I stick with some BCAA's?
It works a lot quicker than Isolate as the particle size is so tiny - I wouldn't bother with extra BCAAs if you are using a quality Whey (prefer isolate or hydrolysed isolate mover concentrate) as it is naturally rich in BCAA's and Glutamine. :)
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supplements are snake oil
HTH
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It works a lot quicker than Isolate as the particle size is so tiny - I wouldn't bother with extra BCAAs if you are using a quality Whey (prefer isolate or hydrolysed isolate mover concentrate) as it is naturally rich in BCAA's and Glutamine. :)
Yes, I understand the faster absorption speed, but this hydrolisation process seems debatable when certain studies suggest that this method may result in incomplete/damaged protein (BTW, it's hard to find objective sources to confirm this).
I decided to take 2 scoops whey isolate pre- & post wo, so that means 50 grams of extra protein on a workout day. Other than my back, I experience a better recovery process and more hard- & fullness.
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supplements are snake oil
HTH
Most of them are. You need to be selective, just like on women ;)
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Yes, I understand the faster absorption speed, but this hydrolisation process seems debatable when certain studies suggest that this method may result in incomplete/damaged protein (BTW, it's hard to find objective sources to confirm this).
I decided to take 2 scoops whey isolate pre- & post wo, so that means 50 grams of extra protein on a workout day. Other than my back, I experience a better recovery process and more hard- & fullness.
I'd stick with isolate - don't really think the hydro is going to make much difference that it's worth the extra cost - Isolate is very effective and works well :)
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I have found that carbs pre and intra workout are all thats needed. Post workout i rarely if ever get carbs only protein.
This is exactly what I do, and find it provides better pumps and energy for my training. Waiting until after the workload is done to begin glycogen replenishment seems late and much less productive.
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Yes, I understand the faster absorption speed, but this hydrolisation process seems debatable when certain studies suggest that this method may result in incomplete/damaged protein (BTW, it's hard to find objective sources to confirm this).
This is the link I referred to above: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/casein-hydrolysate-and-anabolic-hormones-and-growth-research-review.html
Again, it looks at hydrolyzed casein; not whey. I don't know if the same applies to casein, but you can read the article and decide for yourself.
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Summing up: Hydrolysates are not only not superior to intact protein in terms of providing amino acids to skeletal muscle, they are distinctly inferior. Their fast digestion speed leads to greater digestive losses, more oxidation via deamination and provides less amino acids to skeletal muscle.
The concluding statement seems to suggest the findings apply to protein sources in general.
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supplements are snake oil
HTH
Proof, or future comments of this type will be deleted.
We engage in constructive, credible discussion here. So far, you have demonstrated neither.
The G&O may be a better place for you.
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Proof, or future comments of this type will be deleted.
We engage in constructive, credible discussion here. So far, you have demonstrated neither.
The G&O may be a better place for you.
bluto is an idiot (i trust you agree that no link is required to justify this)
but he is somewhat correct... supplements in general as snake oil:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/ (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/play/snake-oil-supplements/)
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/ (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/)
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2011/snake-oil-version-2/ (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2011/snake-oil-version-2/)
hydrolyzed whey protein commentary:
http://proteinfactory.com/blog/?p=1039 (http://proteinfactory.com/blog/?p=1039)
Question
Hello Alex,
I am trying to compare some of the hydrolyzed proteins that you guys carry. Can you give me your opinion on the range of hydrolyzed proteins that you carry?
Thanks
George
Answer
Sure thing. When buying a hydrolyzed protein the main thing to know (really the ONLY thing to know) is what the molecular weight average is. This tell you EVERYTHING about the quality of a hydrolyzed protein. If you don’t know the MW average there really is no point in buying the product. And the whole reason you are buying a hydrolyzed protein is because its pre digested. Well just how much is it predigested? Well the smallest a hydrolyzed protein can be pre digested is 200 to 300 daltons. This is the average MW of Peptopro. (anything that weights 100 daltons would be a free form amino acid). Next up would be the hydrolyzed 520 with an average MW of 520 daltons (or 5 amino acids long). Next is the 1400 at 14 amino acids long. Then the Optipep with a 15,000 MW average.
The smaller the peptides the faster the absorption. The smaller the peptides the worse the taste. However Peptopro is somewhat de bitterized. It’s still really bitter but just not horrific.
I do not predigested food....
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if you've never used the 'information is beautiful' chart before than be sure to play with it for a while... great tool... all linked to pubmed or other studies
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...he is somewhat correct... supplements in general as snake oil:
Percentage-wise, I agree, but only because of the sheer number of "supplements" that are sold, including ones never discussed here like cat's claw and horse chestnut seed extract.
The actual number that do work and have legitimate value is too great to make over-simplistic generalizations like, "supplements are snake oil," and, "I think supplements are fake."
It is also important to remember that not all supplements have been given proper research. That doesn't mean they don't work, and we can't disqualify their effectiveness based on that fact alone, especially in the presence of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. We also cannot ignore the possible synergistic effects of combinations of certain supplements, on which even less formal research has been devoted many times.
I like the balloon chart idea, but it's a little hard to follow, particularly near the bottom. I'm unclear on how some of the items are categorized. Potassium, for instance, seems to be on its own, so I don't understand the reason for its placing. Then, some of the balloons near the top contain symptoms/conditions, again on their own. The organization is a little unclear in certain areas.
Interesting source, though. I hope they clean it up some and update it with more supplements and details.
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good points...
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This is the link I referred to above: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/casein-hydrolysate-and-anabolic-hormones-and-growth-research-review.html
Again, it looks at hydrolyzed casein; not whey. I don't know if the same applies to casein, but you can read the article and decide for yourself.
Thanks for the link , will read with interest tonight :)