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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Necrosis on February 28, 2013, 07:34:11 AM
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http://i.imgur.com/iwXft2Z.jpg
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(http://i.imgur.com/iwXft2Z.jpg)
What's up, Necrosis?
I've read a lot about this and the honest conclusion is that nobody knows what he was at any particular time. Some times he said stuff that made him sound like a theist, but nobody knows if it was propaganda to reach out to and persuade the theists. He later said stuff that made him sound like an atheist. He probably went from a deeply religious theist to an atheist, and possibly later to something weird(Satanism?) throughout the course of his life. People change, and leaders like Hitler lie.
The fact is that when history remembers someone as a good person, different groups want to claim him/her. But when history remembers someone as a bad person, no group wants to claim him/her.
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Hilter belonged to only one group.......deranged lunatics.
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Because Christians can't stand the thought he was one of them and did what he did in the name of God inspired by the Bible.
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Because Christians can't stand the thought he was one of them and did what he did in the name of God inspired by the Bible.
Billions refer to themselves as "Christian" or "spiritual" or "religious". The majority do nothing to represent Christ and are simply nominal Christians at best...it's an utterly meaningless association.
Hitler was simpy disturbed and deranged.
It matters not which "religion" he may have claimed to associate with be it Christianity or Hinduism or Islam or Catholicism or Satanism. Short story is, a representative of Christ he was not.....that he fully and completely demonstrated LOL.
It matters not if a library full of signed, authenticated documents (by Hitler) was produced that indicated his association with a Christian organization or if a 6-hour documentary was unearthed that showed nothing but Hitler's extensive collection of "I Love Jesus" tshirts and Christmas sweaters or if his personal diary including 100,000 entries of, "Boy howdy I love Jesus!" was uncovered. Simple fact is, Hitler did nothing to represent Christ or live his life according to the will and purposes of God.
The connection folks attempt to make between Hitler and Christianity is laughable and displays nothing but simple ignorance on part of those attempting to make that connection.....that's not an insult either....ignorance is simply ignorance.
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Because Christians can't stand the thought he was one of them and did what he did in the name of God inspired by the Bible.
Atheists can't stand the thought he was one of them and did what he did in the name of natural selection inspired by Darwin's theory of evolution.
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I am not sure what is going on with the pic, I can't see it. God help me.
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Atheists can't stand the thought he was one of them and did what he did in the name of natural selection inspired by Darwin's theory of evolution.
Atheists don't give a fuck, the fact their is even a word for people who don't believe in GOD is ludicrous. is their a word for people who don't believe in Aliens or ghosts or any matter of paranormal phenomenon, of course not. The simple fact is, and this is a fact. Hitler was a Christian, he was raised Christian, he was an altar boy and even dreamed of one day being a priest and his actions were inspired by the Bible and he believed god was on his side. As an atheist, I don't care what Hitler was, but the fact remains "He was a Christian"
And I think you are referring to Social Darwinism, which originated from Herbert Spencer, not Charles Darwin, which is a philosophy based on flawed readings of the biology text On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. Social Darwinists took the biological ideas of Charles Darwin and attempted to apply them to the social sciences. Social Darwinism is distinct from the biological theory of evolution, and only loosely connected with Charles Darwin, whom Hitler is not known to have ever mentioned. But he sure mentioned Christianity, Christ and God a lot.
Furthermore, it seems that there is at least some evidence to suggest that, far from embracing Darwin's work and social Darwinism, the Nazis tried to ban them. The 1935 edition of the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, Die Bücherei, contains a list of banned books. One of the entries in this edition of Die Bücherei is "Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)"
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LRkP47sDRrc/UEjPlkfpkII/AAAAAAAAHHA/2qu5Whh_rmQ/s1600/our-movement-is-christian-adolf-hitler-large.jpg)
(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-as-a-christian-i-have-no-duty-to-allow-myself-to-be-cheated-but-i-have-the-duty-to-be-a-fighter-adolf-hitler-85885.jpg)
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Atheists don't give a fuck, the fact their is even a word for people who don't believe in GOD is ludicrous. is their a word for people who don't believe in Aliens or ghosts or any matter of paranormal phenomenon, of course not. The simple fact is, and this is a fact. Hitler was a Christian, he was raised Christian, he was an altar boy and even dreamed of one day being a priest and his actions were inspired by the Bible and he believed god was on his side. As an atheist, I don't care what Hitler was, but the fact remains "He was a Christian"
And I think you are referring to Social Darwinism, which originated from Herbert Spencer, not Charles Darwin, which is a philosophy based on flawed readings of the biology text On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. Social Darwinists took the biological ideas of Charles Darwin and attempted to apply them to the social sciences. Social Darwinism is distinct from the biological theory of evolution, and only loosely connected with Charles Darwin, whom Hitler is not known to have ever mentioned. But he sure mentioned Christianity, Christ and God a lot.
Furthermore, it seems that there is at least some evidence to suggest that, far from embracing Darwin's work and social Darwinism, the Nazis tried to ban them. The 1935 edition of the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, Die Bücherei, contains a list of banned books. One of the entries in this edition of Die Bücherei is "Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)"
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LRkP47sDRrc/UEjPlkfpkII/AAAAAAAAHHA/2qu5Whh_rmQ/s1600/our-movement-is-christian-adolf-hitler-large.jpg)
(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-as-a-christian-i-have-no-duty-to-allow-myself-to-be-cheated-but-i-have-the-duty-to-be-a-fighter-adolf-hitler-85885.jpg)
Great post!
I think it is quite clear Hitler was in fact a christian. My fascination with the whole atheist spin is that what difference does it make, atheism has no tenets, no rules, only the disbelief in god, what meaning you attach to that is your own. There is no logical in road to genocide from atheism, no in road to lack of morality.
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Atheists don't give a fuck, the fact their is even a word for people who don't believe in GOD is ludicrous. is their a word for people who don't believe in Aliens or ghosts or any matter of paranormal phenomenon, of course not. The simple fact is, and this is a fact. Hitler was a Christian, he was raised Christian, he was an altar boy and even dreamed of one day being a priest and his actions were inspired by the Bible and he believed god was on his side. As an atheist, I don't care what Hitler was, but the fact remains "He was a Christian"
And I think you are referring to Social Darwinism, which originated from Herbert Spencer, not Charles Darwin, which is a philosophy based on flawed readings of the biology text On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. Social Darwinists took the biological ideas of Charles Darwin and attempted to apply them to the social sciences. Social Darwinism is distinct from the biological theory of evolution, and only loosely connected with Charles Darwin, whom Hitler is not known to have ever mentioned. But he sure mentioned Christianity, Christ and God a lot.
Furthermore, it seems that there is at least some evidence to suggest that, far from embracing Darwin's work and social Darwinism, the Nazis tried to ban them. The 1935 edition of the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, Die Bücherei, contains a list of banned books. One of the entries in this edition of Die Bücherei is "Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)"
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LRkP47sDRrc/UEjPlkfpkII/AAAAAAAAHHA/2qu5Whh_rmQ/s1600/our-movement-is-christian-adolf-hitler-large.jpg)
(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-as-a-christian-i-have-no-duty-to-allow-myself-to-be-cheated-but-i-have-the-duty-to-be-a-fighter-adolf-hitler-85885.jpg)
He was a nominal Christian as are billions of others. Only difference between Hilter and the vast majority of other nominal Christians is he was also a lunatic. As I said, he displayed no qualities of Christ or his divine purposes.....his life demonstrated the antithesis of Christ. He may have been raised in a Christian home and associated with Christianity yet did nothing to represent Christ......association does not make a representative of Christ. Love towards others and demonstration of the divine qualities of Christ does......Hitler had neither.....it's very straightforward.
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He was a nominal Christian as are billions of others. Only difference between Hilter and the vast majority of other nominal Christians is he was also a lunatic. As I said, he displayed no qualities of Christ or his divine purposes.....his life demonstrated the antithesis of Christ. He may have been raised in a Christian home and associated with Christianity yet did nothing to represent Christ......association does not make a representative of Christ. Love towards others and demonstration of the divine qualities of Christ does......Hitler had neither.....it's very straightforward.
I agree.
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Atheists don't give a fuck, the fact their is even a word for people who don't believe in GOD is ludicrous. is their a word for people who don't believe in Aliens or ghosts or any matter of paranormal phenomenon, of course not. The simple fact is, and this is a fact. Hitler was a Christian, he was raised Christian, he was an altar boy and even dreamed of one day being a priest and his actions were inspired by the Bible and he believed god was on his side. As an atheist, I don't care what Hitler was, but the fact remains "He was a Christian"
And I think you are referring to Social Darwinism, which originated from Herbert Spencer, not Charles Darwin, which is a philosophy based on flawed readings of the biology text On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. Social Darwinists took the biological ideas of Charles Darwin and attempted to apply them to the social sciences. Social Darwinism is distinct from the biological theory of evolution, and only loosely connected with Charles Darwin, whom Hitler is not known to have ever mentioned. But he sure mentioned Christianity, Christ and God a lot.
Furthermore, it seems that there is at least some evidence to suggest that, far from embracing Darwin's work and social Darwinism, the Nazis tried to ban them. The 1935 edition of the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, Die Bücherei, contains a list of banned books. One of the entries in this edition of Die Bücherei is "Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)"
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Calm down, E-Kul! I was just kidding. Did you not read my first post? ::)
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He was a nominal Christian as are billions of others. Only difference between Hilter and the vast majority of other nominal Christians is he was also a lunatic. As I said, he displayed no qualities of Christ or his divine purposes.....his life demonstrated the antithesis of Christ. He may have been raised in a Christian home and associated with Christianity yet did nothing to represent Christ......association does not make a representative of Christ. Love towards others and demonstration of the divine qualities of Christ does......Hitler had neither.....it's very straightforward.
Man of Steel ain't lying. :)
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I agree he definitely did not represent Christ.
The question rises though, that since he was a Christian, albeit nominal, will he go to heaven because he believed that Jesus died for his sins while the Jewish victims he massacred go to hell for not believing Jesus died for their sins?
That is something that does not make any sense to me.
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I agree he definitely did not represent Christ.
The question rises though, that since he was a Christian, albeit nominal, will he go to heaven because he believed that Jesus died for his sins while the Jewish victims he massacred go to hell for not believing Jesus died for their sins?
That is something that does not make any sense to me.
It's a valid question, but ultimately the answer lies in the true contents of our hearts and God's ultimate judgement of those contents. "Saying the words" simply isn't enough if you know what I mean. Salvation through Christ also entails repentance which is the act of changing our minds about sin and living according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that indwells the Christian. In the end God will absolutely distinguish between the genuine article and the counterfeit. You could also question the notion that if Hitler was insane and not acting of his own volition because of mental illness is he truly accountable for his actions? Again, in the end only God will make the final judgement, but that judgement will be sufficient, righteous, appropriate, loving and in full accordance with his will. We discuss the finality of death in this life, but this life is merely setting the stage for eternity yet to come.
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It's a valid question, but ultimately the answer lies in the true contents of our hearts and God's ultimate judgement of those contents. "Saying the words" simply isn't enough if you know what I mean. Salvation through Christ also entails repentance which is the act of changing our minds about sin and living according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that indwells the Christian. In the end God will absolutely distinguish between the genuine article and the counterfeit. You could also question the notion that if Hitler was insane and not acting of his own volition because of mental illness is he truly accountable for his actions? Again, in the end only God will make the final judgement, but that judgement will be sufficient, righteous, appropriate, loving and in full accordance with his will. We discuss the finality of death in this life, but this life is merely setting the stage for eternity yet to come.
Thanks, that answers part of the question - the one on Hitler's destiny, which is basically "we are not sure how God will judge him and whether or not he will go to heaven."
Second and unanswered part is - do the massacred Jews go to hell despite their suffering in this world, because they did not believe Jesus died for their sins?
And perhaps a third off-topic question is - do you think that's fair (Hitler being a maybe heaven and his victims being definitely hell)?
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Thanks, that answers part of the question - the one on Hitler's destiny, which is basically "we are not sure how God will judge him and whether or not he will go to heaven."
Second and unanswered part is - do the massacred Jews go to hell despite their suffering in this world, because they did not believe Jesus died for their sins?
And perhaps a third off-topic question is - do you think that's fair (Hitler being a maybe heaven and his victims being definitely hell)?
I do not know who has gone to Heaven and who hasn't. All I know is that Jesus said:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" John 14:6
God is not fair. If God were fair, we would all get what we deserve, an eternity in hell for our sins.
We do not know how many of those Jews who died in the holocaust believed in Jesus before their death.
BTW, you believe everyone of those Jews went to hell because they weren't Muslims. In fact, many of them stopped believing in God before they died.
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I do not know who has gone to Heaven and who hasn't. All I know is that Jesus said:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" John 14:6
God is not fair. If God were fair, we would all get what we deserve, an eternity in hell for our sins.
Whoa! Of everything you've ever posted this I disagree with most strongly! God is perfect, and a result of bieng perfect is to be perfectly fair and just as well. I'm honestly shocked how anyone can claim to love God and believe that He is not fair. But it doesn't surprise me that you have to make such outrageous comments to blindly support what you want to believe.
We do not know how many of those Jews who died in the holocaust believed in Jesus before their death.
What do you mean by "believed in Jesus?" I can say I believe in Jesus. Are you referring to "how many Jews who died in the holocaust believed that Jesus died for their sins before their death?" If so, we both know that would be a small percentage. Despite the percentage, you still didn't answer the question of fairness, that the ruthless dictator "may" go to heaven whereas his suffering victims will eternally go to hell, unless some changed their beliefs sometime between their arrest and their execution.
BTW, you believe everyone of those Jews went to hell because they weren't Muslims. In fact, many of them stopped believing in God before they died.
Now you know what I believe, wow....didn't know you can read my thoughts? No I do not believe that everyone of those Jews will go to hell. In Islam everyone is judged based on actions and faith, there are lots of examples given where people who have done good deeds may not go to hell. And even among those who do spend time in hell, its not always eternal either. For example, one can go to hell for a year to "do their time" for their crimes and then be raised to heaven. This way Islam is most just and does not eternally damn anyone simply based on their beliefs.
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Whoa! Of everything you've ever posted this I disagree with most strongly! God is perfect, and a result of bieng perfect is to be perfectly fair and just as well. I'm honestly shocked how anyone can claim to love God and believe that He is not fair. But it doesn't surprise me that you have to make such outrageous comments to blindly support what you want to believe.
How anyone can tolerate Muslims is beyond me, but if you are suggesting that GOD is fair, you are saying that all the EVIL crap that happens like 5 year olds being murdered by crazy gunmen while at school is an example of GOD being fair. Well, either your interpretation of 'fair' is really psychotic or your GOD has some pretty fucked up issues he needs to deal with. Either way, if you think all the EVIL that happens in the world is symbolic of GOD being fair, I have no idea why anybody would want to worship such a being. By the way, all Muslims will spend eternity in HELL! Hope this helps.
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How anyone can tolerate Muslims is beyond me, but if you are suggesting that GOD is fair, you are saying that all the EVIL crap that happens like 5 year olds being murdered by crazy gunmen while at school is an example of GOD being fair. Well, either your interpretation of 'fair' is really psychotic or your GOD has some pretty fucked up issues he needs to deal with. Either way, if you think all the EVIL that happens in the world is symbolic of GOD being fair, I have no idea why anybody would want to worship such a being. By the way, all Muslims will spend eternity in HELL! Hope this helps.
Wow, another internet tough guy, I thought your immature types generally stay in the G&O.
Anyway God is fair, and for that reason those who suffer during this life are compensated for in the after-life, those who commit crimes can face punishment if not forgiven, etc. We use our own free will during this lifetime, and in using our own free will some do suffer from our evil actions, however God compensates them in the after-life because He is fair.
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Wow, another internet tough guy, I thought your immature types generally stay in the G&O.
Anyway God is fair, and for that reason those who suffer during this life are compensated for in the after-life, those who commit crimes can face punishment if not forgiven, etc. We use our own free will during this lifetime, and in using our own free will some do suffer from our evil actions, however God compensates them in the after-life because He is fair.
Their is no such thing as an afterlife, this is just a fairytale you have dreamed up to help explain the mystery of life and death. It helps you avoid reality and the truth that EVIL exists, GOD allows this EVIL and that a GOD could have easily devised a free will system that worked meaning that good deeds were immediately rewarded AND EVIL DEEDS IMMEDIATELY PUNISHED WITHOUT AFFECTING FREE WILL IN ANY WAY. Based on the reality of life, GOD himself is either not ALL GOOD or he doesn't exist. If anything, if their is a GOD, he is most certainly a DICTATOR and not operating on the human concept of fairness, good will and love. Hope this helps.
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Im not so well read about hitler and the holocost, but i hate when the jews complain about the trauma and terror in the holocoust, but then turn that around and do it on the palestinians.
A british MP, David Ward recently said this
"Having visited Auschwitz twice - once with my family and once with local schools - I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza."
Well said.
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Im not so well read about hitler and the holocost, but i hate when the jews complain about the trauma and terror in the holocoust, but then turn that around and do it on the palestinians.
A british MP, David Ward recently said this
"Having visited Auschwitz twice - once with my family and once with local schools - I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza."
Well said.
David Ward is a racist and his comments reflect that, and unlike the Jews who were persecuted under NAZI Germany for no Other reason than they were JEWS, and they offered little resistance, the MUSLIMS are more than a deserving recipient of the hostility they receive.
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David Ward is a racist and his comments reflect that, and unlike the Jews who were persecuted under NAZI Germany for no Other reason than they were JEWS, and they offered little resistance, the MUSLIMS are more than a deserving recipient of the hostility they receive.
It just proves that there are forces hostile to muslims, and they have a right to dfend themselves.You claim God is not fair, you yourself are unfair aswell, you cant differenitate between right and wrong.
What did the palestinains do to receive there terror?
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1. "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
2."We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."
Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
3. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."
Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
4. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
5."We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, what is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"
Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs,
published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
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Like your dead mate atheist chris hitchens mentions,
1.A review of his autobiography Hitch-22 in the Jewish Daily Forward refers to Hitchens as "a prominent anti-Zionist" and says that he views Zionism "as an injustice against the Palestinians".
2.In his 2006 debate with Martin Amis, Hitchens stated that "one must not insult or degrade or humiliate people.
3.Hitchens argued that instead of supporting Zionism, Jews should help "secularize and reform their own societies", believing that unless one is religious, "what the hell are you doing in the greater Jerusalem area in the first place?" Indeed, Hitchens goes so far as to claim that the only justification for Zionism given by Jews is a religious one.
4.Hitchens described Zionism as "an ethno-nationalist quasi-religious ideology" and stated his desire that if possible, he would "re-wind the tape [to] stop Hertzl from telling the initial demagogic lie (actually two lies) that a land without a people needs a people without a land".
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Great post!
I think it is quite clear Hitler was in fact a christian. My fascination with the whole atheist spin is that what difference does it make, atheism has no tenets, no rules, only the disbelief in god, what meaning you attach to that is your own. There is no logical in road to genocide from atheism, no in road to lack of morality.
That's right! Hitler WAS a Christian. But, by the time he got to power, he made it clear that he wanted to stamp out Christianity "root and branch". He wanted the swastika to replace the cross. He wanted people to see HIM as God, not Jesus Christ.
It pretty much goes to what I've said for years (which almost always gets under atheists' skin). Atheism, in its purest form, is simply man worshipping HIMSELF.
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That's right! Hitler WAS a Christian. But, by the time he got to power, he made it clear that he wanted to stamp out Christianity "root and branch". He wanted the swastika to replace the cross. He wanted people to see HIM as God, not Jesus Christ.
It pretty much goes to what I've said for years (which almost always gets under atheists' skin). Atheism, in its purest form, is simply man worshipping HIMSELF.
Other way around, worshipping GOD is man worshipping his projected self. Atheism is worshipping nothing, Atheism simply sees reality as it is, nothing of any real worth, life has much good, but also much evil suffering, this is nothing to be worshipped. To worship creation and it's Creator is to not only celebrate the good, but the EVIL, a very ignoble act indeed.
And Hitler never wanted to stamp out Christianity, he realised what a powerful political tool it was. besides, Hitler truly believed he was doing Gods work, as most do-gooders do on their way to making life miserable for everyone else.
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Whoa! Of everything you've ever posted this I disagree with most strongly! God is perfect, and a result of bieng perfect is to be perfectly fair and just as well. I'm honestly shocked how anyone can claim to love God and believe that He is not fair. But it doesn't surprise me that you have to make such outrageous comments to blindly support what you want to believe.
What do you mean by "believed in Jesus?" I can say I believe in Jesus. Are you referring to "how many Jews who died in the holocaust believed that Jesus died for their sins before their death?" If so, we both know that would be a small percentage. Despite the percentage, you still didn't answer the question of fairness, that the ruthless dictator "may" go to heaven whereas his suffering victims will eternally go to hell, unless some changed their beliefs sometime between their arrest and their execution.
Now you know what I believe, wow....didn't know you can read my thoughts? No I do not believe that everyone of those Jews will go to hell. In Islam everyone is judged based on actions and faith, there are lots of examples given where people who have done good deeds may not go to hell. And even among those who do spend time in hell, its not always eternal either. For example, one can go to hell for a year to "do their time" for their crimes and then be raised to heaven. This way Islam is most just and does not eternally damn anyone simply based on their beliefs.
Of course God is fair, and perfect, and just, and merciful, and God is love. Mine was sarcasm, in response to you repeatedly saying in this and in other threads "it's not fair."
In fact, I believe God is fair more so than you do. I believe that God is so fair and so just that He does not let sin go unpunished, even when God forgives sin. And that is why Jesus said the Father sent him to die for our sins.
bigbobs, do you remember this when you read Matthew? It is very relevant to your question.
Matthew 20:1-16
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
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Thanks, that answers part of the question - the one on Hitler's destiny, which is basically "we are not sure how God will judge him and whether or not he will go to heaven."
Second and unanswered part is - do the massacred Jews go to hell despite their suffering in this world, because they did not believe Jesus died for their sins?
And perhaps a third off-topic question is - do you think that's fair (Hitler being a maybe heaven and his victims being definitely hell)?
Sorry bobs, I did gloss over the second half your question....got caught up in thought on Hitler and ignored the rest. I'll address later on today when I have a bit more time.....most likely in a couple of hours.
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Of course God is fair, and perfect, and just, and merciful, and God is love. Mine was sarcasm, in response to you repeatedly saying in this and in other threads "it's not fair."
In fact, I believe God is fair more so than you do. I believe that God is so fair and so just that He does not let sin go unpunished, even when God forgives sin. And that is why Jesus said the Father sent him to die for our sins.
LOL what would be the "fairness" if God, as you claim, were to never let sin go unpunished when He created us imperfect in a manner knowing that we will sin. So you create something which you know is incapable of not sinning, then punish it for sinning - how fair is that? Even our man-made justice system has provisions for those deemed "insane" in that they were born in a way that they were not at a capacity to differentiate between right and wrong as those who are sane.
I'm not saying that God is not fair - He is - and the fact that He is fair is in total conflict with your belief that sin never goes unpunished.
Also hypothetically if Jesus did indeed die for our sins, woudlnt we all be forgiven? Why would we have to then believe that he died for our sins in order to be forgiven?
bigbobs, do you remember this when you read Matthew? It is very relevant to your question.
Matthew 20:1-16
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
And the point of this is...?
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LOL what would be the "fairness" if God, as you claim, were to never let sin go unpunished when He created us imperfect in a manner knowing that we will sin. So you create something which you know is incapable of not sinning, then punish it for sinning - how fair is that? Even our man-made justice system has provisions for those deemed "insane" in that they were born in a way that they were not at a capacity to differentiate between right and wrong as those who are sane.
I'm not saying that God is not fair - He is - and the fact that He is fair is in total conflict with your belief that sin never goes unpunished.
Also hypothetically if Jesus did indeed die for our sins, woudlnt we all be forgiven? Why would we have to then believe that he died for our sins in order to be forgiven?
And the point of this is...?
Jesus said
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
John 8:24
And Jesus also said
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
John 3:18
bigbobs, did you read Jesus' Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? What do you thinks Jesus was teaching here?
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Jesus said
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
John 8:24
And Jesus also said
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
John 3:18
bigbobs, did you read Jesus' Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? What do you thinks Jesus was teaching here?
What you believe Jesus said or meant does not change the fact that your beliefs suggest an unfair unjust God.
Didn't pay too much attention to the Parable story, as I dont see how it relates to the topic at hand. If you can show how it does then I'll address it, otherwise I'll see it as just a derailment and ignore it.
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What you believe Jesus said or meant does not change the fact that your beliefs suggest an unfair unjust God.
Didn't pay too much attention to the Parable story, as I dont see how it relates to the topic at hand. If you can show how it does then I'll address it, otherwise I'll see it as just a derailment and ignore it.
Actually, what Jesus said suggests a loving, just and fair God.
I thought you would ignore Jesus' parable. ::)
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Actually, what Jesus said suggests a loving, just and fair God.
Agreed. Except the difference is I don't believe Jesus taught that every single human goes to hell for eternity unless they believe Jesus died for their sins. That's your belief, and no one in their right mind can say that's fair given that God did not create us capable of avoiding sinning.
I thought you would ignore Jesus' parable. ::)
I thought you would not be able to describe how Jesus' parable is related to the topic at hand. ::)
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Thanks, that answers part of the question - the one on Hitler's destiny, which is basically "we are not sure how God will judge him and whether or not he will go to heaven."
Second and unanswered part is - do the massacred Jews go to hell despite their suffering in this world, because they did not believe Jesus died for their sins?
And perhaps a third off-topic question is - do you think that's fair (Hitler being a maybe heaven and his victims being definitely hell)?
Sorry bobs, I did gloss over the second half your question....got caught up in thought on Hitler and ignored the rest. I'll address later on today when I have a bit more time.....most likely in a couple of hours.
Your second and third points certainly reference eternity, but frame the reasoning for eternity within a finite, human perspective based upon suffering in this life. Your argument also goes along with the assumption that everything I said regarding Hitler's mental capacity is the reality of the situation (and that may not the reality of the situation). Our individual suffering or non-suffering in this finite, human existence has no bearing on eternity....we're all going to suffer in this life and some more than others. This is why I mentioned previously that this life, this blink of an eye existence, is merely a prepping grounds for the eternity yet to come. God never promised that this life would be without trials; in fact, he assured us there would be trials. Most often it's the trials we endure, those moments of humility and pain in which God can do his greatest work in our lives.....whew, he did in mine!! This life will involve numerous decisions we have to make, but the most important decision any of us has to make (since Christ established the new covenant for both jew and gentile) is whether or not we accept him as Lord Savior and are thereby saved by grace through faith and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
So, do I think it's fair that the jews slaughtered by "mentally-ill Hitler" that refused to accept Christ during their lives spend eternity in hell while "mentally-ill Hitler" that was not of right mind and able to make a rational decision in that state and therefore slaughtered the jews because of the illness goes to heaven for eternity because prior to his mentally handicapped state he made a decision to accept Christ? Yes, I believe it's fair.
Here’s the thing, I don't know whether Hilter was mentally ill or if he was fully sane and fully evil during his life on earth, but I do know that in terms of the millions of jews he had slaughtered that their place in eternity was completely based on the individual decisions they made about Christ and it had nothing to do with their suffering at the hands of Nazis. Believers and nonbelievers pass everyday, some die in anguish and chaos and some die in peace and comfort. Hitler exhibited numerous qualities that would easily define him as a lunatic, but he may have been completely sane and fully evil. I can't know for sure, but that doesn't mean God won't handle the situation appropriately. Just because we can't fully reason through a situation doesn't mean God can't either.
A lot of people scoff at the notion of mental illness, but unfortunately it's very real and an unfortunate part of this earthly existence. Do I belief that God is all-knowing, all-loving and fully just? Yes, I do. Do I believe that the same God would condemn a person with mental illness or some other mental handicap that prevents them from making a genuinely informed decision about right and wrong to an eternity separate from him? No I don't. Do I know for certain that Hilter had mental illness? No I don't. Still, it's hard for me to imagine that someone that is not mentally ill is simply consumed with evil and absolutely cognizant of right and wrong and fully conscious of their evil intent and actions and is fine with that evil. It's hard for me to imagine that, but that doesn't mean it's outside of reality. Hitler could be nothing but evil and completely sane at the same time. Remember, sin entered the world when Adam and Eve chose to defy God's only rule in the garden and in doing so they became aware of sin and death and became aware of the difference to commit sin or not to commit sin...this was the turning point, here entered awareness and accountability. There are mentally handicapped among us today that are fully alive, but fully ignorant and unaware of sin because of their mental limitations and because of that are not held accountable by God. They need not make a choice for Christ because they're already without blame and have no sins which require atonement and will be apart of Christ's eternal kingdom when they leave this life.
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Agreed. Except the difference is I don't believe Jesus taught that every single human goes to hell for eternity unless they believe Jesus died for their sins. That's your belief, and no one in their right mind can say that's fair given that God did not create us capable of avoiding sinning.
I thought you would not be able to describe how Jesus' parable is related to the topic at hand. ::)
Jesus taught plenty in the Gospels about dying for our sins to save us from hell, and about the importance of believing this about him.
Oh, I am able to see what Jesus' parable teaches, and so are you. All you have to do is read it.
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It's a valid question, but ultimately the answer lies in the true contents of our hearts and God's ultimate judgement of those contents. "Saying the words" simply isn't enough if you know what I mean. Salvation through Christ also entails repentance which is the act of changing our minds about sin and living according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that indwells the Christian. In the end God will absolutely distinguish between the genuine article and the counterfeit. You could also question the notion that if Hitler was insane and not acting of his own volition because of mental illness is he truly accountable for his actions? Again, in the end only God will make the final judgement, but that judgement will be sufficient, righteous, appropriate, loving and in full accordance with his will. We discuss the finality of death in this life, but this life is merely setting the stage for eternity yet to come.
Let'a assume that he wasn't insane. And let's also assume, for a second, that Hitler genuinely repented in the last millisecond of his life and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. If that's all it takes, then Hitler would end up in Heaven. Are you really OK with that notion?
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Let'a assume that he wasn't insane. And let's also assume, for a second, that Hitler genuinely repented in the last millisecond of his life and accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. If that's all it takes, then Hitler would end up in Heaven. Are you really OK with that notion?
Yes, I'm ok with anyone that honestly and humbly seeks to be saved by grace through faith in Christ and who then genuinely repents of their sin. Now, I can't fully comprehend the depth of God's love, mercy and forgiveness, but despite that I still trust that he is absolutely just and will evaluate and handle all situations appropriately.
I've heard believers speak that were missionaries that were beaten and bound and forced to watch their remaining family members be tortured, raped and murdered in front of them and still forgive those that committed the acts. Some of those folks that committed those heinous acts later surrendered their lives and became believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I pray I never have to make a decision as incredible as that because my ability to forgive hasn't been tested at that level in my life. Can't say for certain if I could respond with that level of maturity, forgiveness and love.
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Yes, I'm ok with anyone that honestly and humbly seeks to be saved by grace through faith in Christ and who then genuinely repents of their sin. Now, I can't fully comprehend the depth of God's love, mercy and forgiveness, but despite that I still trust that he is absolutely just and will evaluate and handle all situations appropriately.
If what Jesus said is true, there's nothing to evaluate and handle - you believe and *boom* the blood of the lamb cleans you better than CLOROX cleans your favorite white t-shirt from highschool. If nothing else, that one single fact is enough to keep me from being a Christian.
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If what Jesus said is true, there's nothing to evaluate and handle - you believe and *boom* the blood of the lamb cleans you better than CLOROX cleans your favorite white t-shirt from highschool. If nothing else, that one single fact is enough to keep me from being a Christian.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The evaluation I'm referring to is the whether or not the profession of faith and repentance by Hitler was genuine or not in our hypothetical "last millisecond of life conversion". Just saying the words isn't like "abracadabra" if you don't truly mean them. Almost anyone can "say the words" and not mean a word of it or do so to mock believers. I've seen that happen in person, I've watched it occur in atheist/theist debates online, read about it in books and online articles and I've seen it repeatedly occur on discussion boards online (ex: the G&O, Politics and Religion boards of Getbig is riddled with that stuff). I've heard Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins all do so in debates and interviews (both video recorded and in print). For us, we get to witness the transformation of new believers and how they demonstrate their new faith and live it out after conversion and for believers that validates for us the sincerity of the new believer; regardless, that demonstration for us isn't necessary to fulfill God's purposes. In any instance only God can truly know the "contents of our hearts" (or our "true intentions" since we all know that the heart is only a muscle that pumps blood and isn't physically indwelt by the Holy Spirit). That said, I trust that the millisecond profession of faith and repentance will be justly evaluated by God as sincere or insincere belief.
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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The evaluation I'm referring to is the whether or not the profession of faith and repentance by Hitler was genuine or not in our hypothetical "last millisecond of life conversion". Just saying the words isn't like "abracadabra" if you don't truly mean them. Almost anyone can "say the words" and not mean a word of it or do so to mock believers. I've seen that happen in person, I've watched it occur in atheist/theist debates online, read about it in books and online articles and I've seen it repeatedly occur on discussion boards online (ex: the G&O, Politics and Religion boards of Getbig is riddled with that stuff). I've heard Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins all do so in debates and interviews (both video recorded and in print). For us, we get to witness the transformation of new believers and how they demonstrate their new faith and live it out after conversion and for believers that validates for us the sincerity of the new believer; regardless, that demonstration for us isn't necessary to fulfill God's purposes. In any instance only God can truly know the "contents of our hearts" (or our "true intentions" since we all know that the heart is only a muscle that pumps blood and isn't physically indwelt by the Holy Spirit). That said, I trust that the millisecond profession of faith and repentance will be justly evaluated by God as sincere or insincere belief.
Ah, I understand. I'm not sold, but I understand. Thanks MoS.
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Ah, I understand. I'm not sold, but I understand. Thanks MoS.
No problem, sorry my words weren't more clear....I'm working on that actually.
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Hitler was also in cahoots with the Church. The Reichskonkordat (concordat) was a treaty between the Church and Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg respectively. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, and placing constraints on Catholic critics of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to Nazi policies.
Hitler won the church’s approval, thereby gaining international recognition of his Nazi regime. Eugenio Pacelli/Pope Pius XII was anti-Semitic and didn't care at all about the Jews. Millions of Catholics joined the Nazi Party, because it had the support of the Pope. It has been argued that the NAZI party could have never risen to power the way it did without the co-operation of the Catholic Church. pope Pius XII facilitated the rise of Hitler first through the negotiation of the Reichskonkordat and subsequently through his passivity, silence and inaction, which ultimately condoned and enabled the Holocaust.
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(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/174016/1288103869395.png)
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Hitler was also in cahoots with the Church. The Reichskonkordat (concordat) was a treaty between the Church and Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg respectively. The concordat has been described as giving moral legitimacy to the Nazi regime soon after Hitler had acquired dictatorial powers, and placing constraints on Catholic critics of the regime, leading to a muted response by the Church to Nazi policies.
Hitler won the church’s approval, thereby gaining international recognition of his Nazi regime. Eugenio Pacelli/Pope Pius XII was anti-Semitic and didn't care at all about the Jews. Millions of Catholics joined the Nazi Party, because it had the support of the Pope. It has been argued that the NAZI party could have never risen to power the way it did without the co-operation of the Catholic Church. pope Pius XII facilitated the rise of Hitler first through the negotiation of the Reichskonkordat and subsequently through his passivity, silence and inaction, which ultimately condoned and enabled the Holocaust.
That's why there was a 'second reformation' of sorts in the church where basically they wanted to repair their own image. The church went from you're going to hell you filthy sinner to Jesus loves you and all that jazz. Totally turn around. I remember studying this in catholic school ironically :P
Facts are facts... and also Christianity historically wanted to annihilate Jews. That's why Jews actually hate Christians even though evangelical and zionist organizations sleep in bed together, the common christian doesn't realize Israeli Jews hate Christians and Jesus (pbuh). They just want their money lol. For centuries the church was hunting down jews. Thus it only makes sense that they had common interests.
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That's why there was a 'second reformation' of sorts in the church where basically they wanted to repair their own image. The church went from you're going to hell you filthy sinner to Jesus loves you and all that jazz. Totally turn around. I remember studying this in catholic school ironically :P
Facts are facts... and also Christianity historically wanted to annihilate Jews. That's why Jews actually hate Christians even though evangelical and zionist organizations sleep in bed together, the common christian doesn't realize Israeli Jews hate Christians and Jesus (pbuh). They just want their money lol. For centuries the church was hunting down jews. Thus it only makes sense that they had common interests.
A-ahmed you are so predictable, you hate me when I bash on your religion but join in with me when I bash someone else's religion.
Hitler was inspired by the way the Arabs spread Islam by force, but he considered Arabs racially inferior. The Arabs believed that had they won the Battle of Tours in the 8th Century AD, that the Germans would have become heirs to "a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and subjugating all nations to that faith." Hitler spoke how this ideology was perfectly suited to the German temperament, and he countered the Arab belief that they would have ruled Germany by stating "That the conquering Arabs, because of their racial inferiority, would in the long run have been unable to contend with the harsher climate of the country. They could not have kept down the more vigorous natives, so that ultimately not Arabs but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire" In other words Hitler believed Germans would have beaten the Arabs at their own game and raised it a notch.
A lot of Arabs thought Hitler would free them from the rule of the old colonial powers France and Britain. Posters with Arabic sayings: "In heaven God is your ruler, on earth Hitler" were frequently displayed in shops in the towns of Syria. The Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party stated that Fascism and Nazism had greatly influenced ba'athist ideology. An associate of al-Arsuzi wrote: "We were racists. We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books that were the source of the Nazi spirit...We were the first who thought of a translation of Mein Kampf."
One could go on all day about Islamic support of Hitler, I don't think you could find two groups who hated Jews more.
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A-ahmed you are so predictable, you hate me when I bash on your religion but join in with me when I bash someone else's religion.
I see you admit that you're bashing religions regardless of mine or someone else's but I didn't bash Christians just stating facts about the church. Besides I knew about this stuff while I was a christian. Hardly 'bashing'. And please don't ever equate me and you. You and I are nothing alike nor anything in common. Even my skin color as far as I'm concerned is a different shade of white than you. You're an evil individual and that's that. You are filled with hate of all religions and God and just try to play a smart ass in this section.
Jews survived because of Islam and Muslims, they themselves admit it. Their own historians speak of it. Their own historians speak of Jewish glory under Muslim rule. Christians indeed did persecute Jews for centuries and tried to exterminate them. These are facts. Unlike your fantasy tales of Islam and Muslims being 'after everyone'.
So go on and rant about your usual crap. You're actually predictable :)
"The arab socialist party" LMAO, they are against islam you dimwit. Who do you think Muslims are fighting in Syria? Muslims? No they are fighting the baathist scum, secularists. Aren't secularists your freinds? Yes being Arab is not being Muslim, just as I'm not Arab. But you know that ::) It's as retarded as equating zionist Jews who were atheists/secularists and just racist nationalists with domination as their ultimate goal with religious torah Jews. Just because they have the same race doesn't mean they believe the same things.
Hardcore Torah ultra orthodox Jews for example are very anti-israel. You know that, but you seem to circle around facts just so you can dish out your hate against Islam and Muslims.
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good post on reddit
Hitler's entire crusade was set forth by Martin Luther himself, after getting thoroughly educated as a Catholic in his youth, and then furthering his education with reading Martin Luther's book "On the Jews and Their Lies," as explained by Julius Streicher, an Adolf Hitler admirer, and Nazi member since 1922, during the Nuremberg trials:
"Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them..."
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As for Hitler, he has plenty of quotes, both before and during the Third Reich, which more than proves his justification for such savagery:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... … And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."
-[Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)]
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"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."
-[Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."
-[Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
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"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk."
-[Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
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"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
-[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]
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"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
-[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
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"…the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
-[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]
(The idea of the devil/Jew relationship started with medieval anti-Jewish beliefs, based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this "tradition" up until the 20th century, which was where Hitler learned such ideas.)
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"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-[Adolf Hitler, speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933]
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"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."
-[Adolf Hitler, speech in Koblenz, August 26, 1934]
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"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work."
-[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
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"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God.<
-[Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923]
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If you have evidence to the contrary, or sources/citations for where you claim he was not religious, or that WWII was not a modern day Christian crusade, please, feel free to rewrite the history books.
Otherwise, to put it in short, from all of his collective speeches and writings...
"I am now, as before, a Catholic, and will always remain so... I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator... our movement is Christian... I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.
I recognize the representatives of [the Jewish] race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.
Christianity is the basis of our collective morality, and it matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God."
-[Adolf Hitler]
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Yet still today people have the audacity and ignorance to say he was atheist.
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good post on reddit
Hitler's entire crusade was set forth by Martin Luther himself, after getting thoroughly educated as a Catholic in his youth, and then furthering his education with reading Martin Luther's book "On the Jews and Their Lies," as explained by Julius Streicher, an Adolf Hitler admirer, and Nazi member since 1922, during the Nuremberg trials:
"Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them..."
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As for Hitler, he has plenty of quotes, both before and during the Third Reich, which more than proves his justification for such savagery:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... … And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."
-[Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)]
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"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."
-[Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."
-[Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
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"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk."
-[Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich] ]
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"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
-[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]
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"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
-[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
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"…the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
-[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]
(The idea of the devil/Jew relationship started with medieval anti-Jewish beliefs, based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this "tradition" up until the 20th century, which was where Hitler learned such ideas.)
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"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-[Adolf Hitler, speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933]
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"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."
-[Adolf Hitler, speech in Koblenz, August 26, 1934]
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"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work."
-[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
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"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God.<
-[Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923]
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If you have evidence to the contrary, or sources/citations for where you claim he was not religious, or that WWII was not a modern day Christian crusade, please, feel free to rewrite the history books.
Otherwise, to put it in short, from all of his collective speeches and writings...
"I am now, as before, a Catholic, and will always remain so... I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator... our movement is Christian... I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.
I recognize the representatives of [the Jewish] race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.
Christianity is the basis of our collective morality, and it matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God."
-[Adolf Hitler]
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Yet still today people have the audacity and ignorance to say he was atheist.
Billions refer to themselves as "Christian" or "spiritual" or "religious". The majority do nothing to represent Christ and are simply nominal Christians at best...it's an utterly meaningless association.
Hitler was simpy disturbed and deranged.
It matters not which "religion" he may have claimed to associate with be it Christianity or Hinduism or Islam or Catholicism or Satanism. Short story is, a representative of Christ he was not.....that he fully and completely demonstrated LOL.
It matters not if a library full of signed, authenticated documents (by Hitler) was produced that indicated his association with a Christian organization or if a 6-hour documentary was unearthed that showed nothing but Hitler's extensive collection of "I Love Jesus" tshirts and Christmas sweaters or if his personal diary including 100,000 entries of, "Boy howdy I love Jesus!" was uncovered. Simple fact is, Hitler did nothing to represent Christ or live his life according to the will and purposes of God.
The connection folks attempt to make between Hitler and Christianity is laughable and displays nothing but simple ignorance on part of those attempting to make that connection.....that's not an insult either....ignorance is simply ignorance.
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Yet still today people have the audacity and ignorance to say he was atheist.
Necrosis, nobody will ever know what Hitler really was. He was not a Christian. Hitler himself even admitted Christianity is a religion of peace and therefore incompatible with Hitler and Nazism.
"The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay."
Joseph Goebbels(one of Hitler's closest associates and most devout followers), The Holy Reich by Richard Steigmann-Gall, p. 253
“You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
Adolf Hitler as reported by Albert Speer(Hitler's chief architect before becoming his Minister for Armaments during the war), The Holy Reich by Richard Steigmann-Gall, p. 252-253
On Martin Bormann, Head of the Party Chancellery and private secretary of the Fuhrer
"Nazism, based as it was on a 'scientific' world-view, was completely incompatible with Christianity whose influence was regarded by Bormann as a serious obstacle to totalitarian rule"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/bormann.html
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Necrosis, nobody will ever know what Hitler really was. He was not a Christian. Hitler himself even admitted Christianity is a religion of peace and therefore incompatible with Hitler and Nazism.
"The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay."
Joseph Goebbels(one of Hitler's closest associates and most devout followers), The Holy Reich by Richard Steigmann-Gall, p. 253
“You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
Adolf Hitler as reported by Albert Speer(Hitler's chief architect before becoming his Minister for Armaments during the war), The Holy Reich by Richard Steigmann-Gall, p. 252-253
On Martin Bormann, Head of the Party Chancellery and private secretary of the Fuhrer
"Nazism, based as it was on a 'scientific' world-view, was completely incompatible with Christianity whose influence was regarded by Bormann as a serious obstacle to totalitarian rule"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/bormann.html
I guess for me, despite all the discussion, let's say Hitler was completely verified as associating with Christianity and it was proved that he deemed himself a Christian.
And?? So??
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Fine, but it appears religious motivations sparked this and he believed himself to be doing god's work.
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Fine, but it appears religious motivations sparked this and he believed himself to be doing god's work.
Crazy people do crazy things.
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Bush also believed he was doing God's work. Even Obama believes he's doing God's work. Together they have caused the death of over one and a half million people.
"[Genocide] certainly is a valid word in my view, when you have a situation where we see thousands of deaths per month, a possible total of 1 million to 1.5 million over the last nine years. If that is not genocide, then I don't know quite what is." -- Denis Halliday, former UN humanitarian coordinator - on effect of US sanctions on Iraqi people
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
Obama keeps talking about what a good christian he is i want to find that one quote of him but im too lazy now and yet he has caused even more bloodshed than either of these previous morons
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/552142_191903840943229_921563778_n.jpg)
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lol at e-kul not reading quran and copy pasting islamophobe contents. Quran doesn't call Jews apes and pigs. It describes a group of them that was cursed and dubbed as such.
Otherwise why would the quran speak of protecting Jews and Christians in other places, or call Jews God's chosen people (at the time), or praising those that fear God and obey God from amongst the Jews.
Silly e-fool.
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lol at e-kul not reading quran and copy pasting islamophobe contents. Quran doesn't call Jews apes and pigs. It describes a group of them that was cursed and dubbed as such.
Otherwise why would the quran speak of protecting Jews and Christians in other places, or call Jews God's chosen people (at the time), or praising those that fear God and obey God from amongst the Jews.
Silly e-fool.
There are three instances (Surahs 2, 5, and 7), the Quran tells of Muhammad turning Jews into apes and/or pigs.
For instance, Surah 5:60 states, “Those (Jews) who incurred the curse of Allah and his Wrath, and those of whom (some) He transformed into apes and swine.”
Another section of the Quran compares the Jews to donkeys. There are two differing traditions in Islam regarding what happened to the Jews who were turned into pigs.
One view maintains that all pigs alive today are descendants of the Jews who were turned into pigs by Allah. The other view holds that all the Jews who were turned into pigs by Allah died out without reproducing, and therefore there is no relationship between today’s pigs and Jews:
There is a long history of anti-Semitism practised by Muslims till this day. To assert anything else is disingenuous. And it doesn't matter if there are contradictory passages in the Koran, it is this fact that makes it particularly psychotic. If the text only stated the one without the opposite, then that would be a different story, but because it is contradictory, it therefore can easily be interpreted in anyway one pleases. A well written ideology could never be interpreted in a paradoxical fashion, if some people are saying, NO, it means LOVE and others are saying, no it doesn't, it means KILL, then it is a poorly written piece of text and should be discarded. As should any literature that people use for inspiration to commit atrocities. If people can't practise basic love and kindness to their fellow man without a book telling them how to do this, then there is something wrong with them in the first place.
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Well again you are not reading the qur'an so you're talking ignorantly.
Secondly the hadi'th about the day that will come where Jews will hide and rocks and trees will speak and show where they are is a future prophecy as in something that they will do that the whole world will be against them. Indeed we can see what's happening in Palestine and what certain Jews are doing there.
However your premises are all false as Jewish historians and Jews themselves illustrate a complete contrast to the hate filled lies and ignorance you're preaching. Jews prospered and survived under Islam and the golden Jewish age was under Muslim rule. If it weren't for Muslims there would be no Jews today left as Christians were hunting them down and persecuting them wherever they were while they sought Muslims' help to protect them and got protection.
Zionists are atheist secularists and not Orthodox torah jews. Orthodox Torah Jews are against Israel and rightly so as they pervert God and God's religion for their goals.
So, what did the Muslims do for the Jews?
By David J Wasserstein, May 24, 2012
Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity - also in Christendom - through the medieval period into the modern world.
By the fourth century, Christianity had become the dominant religion in the Roman empire. One aspect of this success was opposition to rival faiths, including Judaism, along with massive conversion of members of such faiths, sometimes by force, to Christianity. Much of our testimony about Jewish existence in the Roman empire from this time on consists of accounts of conversions.
Great and permanent reductions in numbers through conversion, between the fourth and the seventh centuries, brought with them a gradual but relentless whittling away of the status, rights, social and economic existence, and religious and cultural life of Jews all over the Roman empire.
A long series of enactments deprived Jewish people of their rights as citizens, prevented them from fulfilling their religious obligations, and excluded them from the society of their fellows.
Had Islam not come along, Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance and Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult
This went along with the centuries-long military and political struggle with Persia. As a tiny element in the Christian world, the Jews should not have been affected much by this broad, political issue. Yet it affected them critically, because the Persian empire at this time included Babylon - now Iraq - at the time home to the world's greatest concentration of Jews.
Here also were the greatest centres of Jewish intellectual life. The most important single work of Jewish cultural creativity in over 3,000 years, apart from the Bible itself - the Talmud - came into being in Babylon. The struggle between Persia and Byzantium, in our period, led increasingly to a separation between Jews under Byzantine, Christian rule and Jews under Persian rule.
Beyond all this, the Jews who lived under Christian rule seemed to have lost the knowledge of their own culturally specific languages - Hebrew and Aramaic - and to have taken on the use of Latin or Greek or other non-Jewish, local, languages. This in turn must have meant that they also lost access to the central literary works of Jewish culture - the Torah, Mishnah, poetry, midrash, even liturgy.
The loss of the unifying force represented by language - and of the associated literature - was a major step towards assimilation and disappearance. In these circumstances, with contact with the one place where Jewish cultural life continued to prosper - Babylon - cut off by conflict with Persia, Jewish life in the Christian world of late antiquity was not simply a pale shadow of what it had been three or four centuries earlier. It was doomed.
Had Islam not come along, the conflict with Persia would have continued. The separation between western Judaism, that of Christendom, and Babylonian Judaism, that of Mesopotamia, would have intensified. Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance in many areas. And Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult.
But this was all prevented by the rise of Islam. The Islamic conquests of the seventh century changed the world, and did so with dramatic, wide-ranging and permanent effect for the Jews.
Within a century of the death of Mohammad, in 632, Muslim armies had conquered almost the whole of the world where Jews lived, from Spain eastward across North Africa and the Middle East as far as the eastern frontier of Iran and beyond. Almost all the Jews in the world were now ruled by Islam. This new situation transformed Jewish existence. Their fortunes changed in legal, demographic, social, religious, political, geographical, economic, linguistic and cultural terms - all for the better.
First, things improved politically. Almost everywhere in Christendom where Jews had lived now formed part of the same political space as Babylon - Cordoba and Basra lay in the same political world. The old frontier between the vital centre in Babylonia and the Jews of the Mediterranean basin was swept away, forever.
Political change was partnered by change in the legal status of the Jewish population: although it is not always clear what happened during the Muslim conquests, one thing is certain. The result of the conquests was, by and large, to make the Jews second-class citizens.
This should not be misunderstood: to be a second-class citizen was a far better thing to be than not to be a citizen at all. For most of these Jews, second-class citizenship represented a major advance. In Visigothic Spain, for example, shortly before the Muslim conquest in 711, the Jews had seen their children removed from them and forcibly converted to Christianity and had themselves been enslaved.
In the developing Islamic societies of the classical and medieval periods, being a Jew meant belonging to a category defined under law, enjoying certain rights and protections, alongside various obligations. These rights and protections were not as extensive or as generous as those enjoyed by Muslims, and the obligations were greater but, for the first few centuries, the Muslims themselves were a minority, and the practical differences were not all that great.
Along with legal near-equality came social and economic equality. Jews were not confined to ghettos, either literally or in terms of economic activity. The societies of Islam were, in effect, open societies. In religious terms, too, Jews enjoyed virtually full freedom. They might not build many new synagogues - in theory - and they might not make too public their profession of their faith, but there was no really significant restriction on the practice of their religion. Along with internal legal autonomy, they also enjoyed formal representation, through leaders of their own, before the authorities of the state. Imperfect and often not quite as rosy as this might sound, it was at least the broad norm.
The political unity brought by the new Islamic world-empire did not last, but it created a vast Islamic world civilisation, similar to the older Christian civilisation that it replaced. Within this huge area, Jews lived and enjoyed broadly similar status and rights everywhere. They could move around, maintain contacts, and develop their identity as Jews. A great new expansion of trade from the ninth century onwards brought the Spanish Jews - like the Muslims - into touch with the Jews and the Muslims even of India.
A ll this was encouraged by a further, critical development. Huge numbers of people in the new world of Islam adopted the language of the Muslim Arabs. Arabic gradually became the principal language of this vast area, excluding almost all the rest: Greek and Syriac, Aramaic and Coptic and Latin all died out, replaced by Arabic. Persian, too, went into a long retreat, to reappear later heavily influenced by Arabic.
The Jews moved over to Arabic very rapidly. By the early 10th century, only 300 years after the conquests, Sa'adya Gaon was translating the Bible into Arabic. Bible translation is a massive task - it is not undertaken unless there is a need for it. By about the year 900, the Jews had largely abandoned other languages and taken on Arabic.
The change of language in its turn brought the Jews into direct contact with broader cultural developments. The result from the 10th century on was a striking pairing of two cultures. The Jews of the Islamic world developed an entirely new culture, which differed from their culture before Islam in terms of language, cultural forms, influences, and uses. Instead of being concerned primarily with religion, the new Jewish culture of the Islamic world, like that of its neighbours, mixed the religious and the secular to a high degree. The contrast, both with the past and with medieval Christian Europe, was enormous.
Like their neighbours, these Jews wrote in Arabic in part, and in a Jewish form of that language. The use of Arabic brought them close to the Arabs. But the use of a specific Jewish form of that language maintained the barriers between Jew and Muslim. The subjects that Jews wrote about, and the literary forms in which they wrote about them, were largely new ones, borrowed from the Muslims and developed in tandem with developments in Arabic Islam.
Also at this time, Hebrew was revived as a language of high literature, parallel to the use among the Muslims of a high form of Arabic for similar purposes. Along with its use for poetry and artistic prose, secular writing of all forms in Hebrew and in (Judeo-)Arabic came into being, some of it of high quality.
Much of the greatest poetry in Hebrew written since the Bible comes from this period. Sa'adya Gaon, Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Ezra (Moses and Abraham), Maimonides, Yehuda Halevi, Yehudah al-Harizi, Samuel ha-Nagid, and many more - all of these names, well known today, belong in the first rank of Jewish literary and cultural endeavour.
W here did these Jews produce all this? When did they and their neighbours achieve this symbiosis, this mode of living together? The Jews did it in a number of centres of excellence. The most outstanding of these was Islamic Spain, where there was a true Jewish Golden Age, alongside a wave of cultural achievement among the Muslim population. The Spanish case illustrates a more general pattern, too.
What happened in Islamic Spain - waves of Jewish cultural prosperity paralleling waves of cultural prosperity among the Muslims - exemplifies a larger pattern in Arab Islam. In Baghdad, between the ninth and the twelfth centuries; in Qayrawan (in north Africa), between the ninth and the 11th centuries; in Cairo, between the 10th and the 12th centuries, and elsewhere, the rise and fall of cultural centres of Islam tended to be reflected in the rise and fall of Jewish cultural activity in the same places.
This was not coincidence, and nor was it the product of particularly enlightened liberal patronage by Muslim rulers. It was the product of a number of deeper features of these societies, social and cultural, legal and economic, linguistic and political, which together enabled and indeed encouraged the Jews of the Islamic world to create a novel sub-culture within the high civilisation of the time.
This did not last for ever; the period of culturally successful symbiosis between Jew and Arab Muslim in the middle ages came to a close by about 1300. In reality, it had reached this point even earlier, with the overall relative decline in the importance and vitality of Arabic culture, both in relation to western European cultures and in relation to other cultural forms within Islam itself; Persian and Turkish.
Jewish cultural prosperity in the middle ages operated in large part as a function of Muslim, Arabic cultural (and to some degree political) prosperity: when Muslim Arabic culture thrived, so did that of the Jews; when Muslim Arabic culture declined, so did that of the Jews.
In the case of the Jews, however, the cultural capital thus created also served as the seed-bed of further growth elsewhere - in Christian Spain and in the Christian world more generally.
The Islamic world was not the only source of inspiration for the Jewish cultural revival that came later in Christian Europe, but it certainly was a major contributor to that development. Its significance cannot be overestimated.
David J Wasserstein is the Eugene Greener Jr Professor of Jewish Studies at Vanderbilt University. This article is adapted from last week's Jordan Lectures in Comparative Religion at the School of Oriental and African Studies.
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Well again you are not reading the qur'an so you're talking ignorantly.
Secondly the hadi'th about the day that will come where Jews will hide and rocks and trees will speak and show where they are is a future prophecy as in something that they will do that the whole world will be against them. Indeed we can see what's happening in Palestine and what certain Jews are doing there.
However your premises are all false as Jewish historians and Jews themselves illustrate a complete contrast to the hate filled lies and ignorance you're preaching. Jews prospered and survived under Islam and the golden Jewish age was under Muslim rule. If it weren't for Muslims there would be no Jews today left as Christians were hunting them down and persecuting them wherever they were while they sought Muslims' help to protect them and got protection.
Zionists are atheist secularists and not Orthodox torah jews. Orthodox Torah Jews are against Israel and rightly so as they pervert God and God's religion for their goals.
Oh Brother, Now the Muslims not only don't persecute Jews, they are in fact their saviours. You are living proof that ISLAM equals DELUSION.
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No the only one delusional and having constant fits of anger and rage and desiring death upon others is you.
Apparently those Jews must be crazy for stating the facts while you know better. You are so blinded by hate that you have advocated and commended genocide of Muslims. You're a mentally sick person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
That article I posted was from the Jewish Chronicle by a Jew.
The only ones who speak crap like you are Zionists who want to rewrite history.
And it was a comittee of Jews and Unitarian Christians who came to the Muslims of North Africa to seek help to overthrow the oppressive Christian rule in Al-Andalus. They fought alongside Muslims against the trinitarian oppressive christians of the north. After the conquest, al-andalus prospered and it was responsible for fruition of much that we should be thankful for in the modern world, from medicine, to mathematics, to preservation of ancient knowledge transmitted and translated, etc...
The Europeans did not have the original greek works but used to study the arabic translations that were preserved and then re-translated them to greek for example. The list of things goes on and on.
Historians and history is against you. Only selective hate mongerers such as yourself will spew non-sense that you spew.
Even in Jerusalem it was under Muslim rule that the three monotheistic religions co-existed peacefully. NOT under christian rule and NOT under zionist pseudo-jewish rule.
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No the only one delusional and having constant fits of anger and rage and desiring death upon others is you.
You are so blinded by hate that you have advocated and commended genocide of Muslims. You're a mentally sick person.
The only ones who speak crap like you are Zionists who want to rewrite history.
ROFL. Must I post your most recent meltdowns
Ban this fucker
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=472559.msg6742812#msg6742812
I am angry and not in my senses that I posted in the wrong section, LO AND BEHOLD there is already a petition ban this pile of SHIT.
Ban him! Read my post.
This degenerate has no respect for human life or DIGNITY.. NO NOTHING.. he needs to be institutionalized in a mental institute and if i had the means i would contact the local authorities.
Interesting that he ridiculed boston bombings, he plays both sides even in the religion section. He hates ALL RELIGIONS, but will play sides to attack one then the other.
He has fits of rage, anger and comes and trolls in the religion section with his random outbursts. He has no respect for anything.
HE NEVER brings anything useful to discussion, he admits he hates religion, god, etc... what the hell is he even doing in the section?
I can tolerate ppl's ignorance and hate to an extent but with his latest stunt he has FUCKING CROSSED THE LINE.
You will barely even see me angry or swearing in real life or even online... but this douchebag sub human has CROSSED THE LINE and broke my total limits which are PRETTY HIGH.
He is nothing but a troll and a low life with nothing in his life, as it's already known on the site he was abused as a child, he admitted he never worksouts (wth is he on here for period?) and so on and so on.
You know what, shut the fuck up you sick mentally deranged old bastard. I don't know how a slimey pile of degenerate old shit human being like yourself can even exist and feel good with himself being alive.
You fucking crossed the line. Not only are you disrespectful for human life or dignity of other humans, you are the lowest of the lowest of scum that humanity has to offer. You are the one that's lesser than an animal. I normally don't cuss out but I swear to God if you were in front of me I would break your fucking face. Yes oooh violent muslim. Any sane human would fucking put some sense into you, you sick mentally derranged bastard. Some day God will curse you, you heartless lonely jobless old bastard. You are already cursed, you're old and useless.
Go rot from disease and decay you pile of sick shit. I am the most calm and composed down to earth guy, I never pick fights, i keep cool, but you fucking crossed the line, I would break your fucking jaw if you were in front of me. You are sub human.
There's a line and I have my limits, when a pile of shit like yourself speaks. If any human being regardless of nationality, race, age, religion saw another moron like yourself boast about other humans being killed and slaughtered in the way you are speaking they would fucking grab you and take you to a mental institute in shackles.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you even fucking hear yourself or wait before you speak? I have never heard a more degenerate individual than yourself exist. I am logging off cause I am so fucking angry at hearing the vomit coming out of your mouth. Thank God you're not around me. I don't hang around losers like yourself in real life. Degenerates attract degenerates. A sub human pile of shit such as yourself that has no respect for human life and ridicules genocide of a people, needs to be fucking hospitalized in a mental institution. The amount of hate and anger you have should be reported to local authorities. You're the kind of sick bastard that would actually enjoy killing a Muslim as you've already joked about Muslim lives more than once.
What the hell are you even on this forum for? You admitted to not working out, you admit you were fired/jobless, you admitted you are a loner, you admitted you were abused as a child, you admitted you don't care about religion yet you troll this section over and over again and HATE everyone, but just try to play sides when you are attacking one religion. You are so pathetic. I wish... I don't know... you need some fucking mental help, as it shows all your 'experiences' have led to a sick personality.
You should be banned from this section once and for all. You bring NOTHING but hate, anger and rage and you're nothing but a TROLLER in this section. You don't believe in God, you don't follow any religion, you hate God, you hate religion, you hate people of faith. Why is a fraud like yourself in this section.
And you CROSSED THE LINE this is too much. To an extent I can tolerate your moronic ignorance and hate, but this is too much where you are praising genocide of a people as a joke to further 'pleasure' your sick mind with your hatered.
^^^^ That was quite the display of ISLAM in action a-ashamed. Good to see you finally showing your true colors and dropping the pious act. It was obvious to me you are a massive hypocrite and only a matter of time before you exposed yourself for the whole world to see. Muslims have trouble containing their true selves when challenged. I wonder if this was the same repressed feeling that the recent terrorists from Boston were feeling. By giving you a chance to vent here, I may have saved some people from a terrorist act, as you had obviously been building up quite the Infidel Rage internally. No need to thank me though, the terrorist acts you may have committed and I have now helped prevent and the lives saved is all the thanks I need.
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It's the only time I really got angry because you crossed the line. I feel disgusted even responding to you. You ridiculed the genocide of muslims in Burma. I still will say it again go off yourself. You're a disgrace to mankind and deserve to be in a mental institute. Your posts were deleted but you are going to go on and on about this now. Yes if you said all the garbage you said in real life I am sure others would gladly beat the crap out of you and drag you straight to a mental institute. It's no different than a slimeball that would boast about genocide of Jews in public. He would be taken by his teeth and dragged straight to an instutition or jail. Douchebags like you don't last in real life, that's why you hide on an internet forum and spread your hate. Generally speaking even unrelated to islam or Muslims, pick any topic where you are a demeaning slimeball, even in a low life bar with drunks or an office space, you cross the limit with people in this manner and you won't be tolerated.
You're a twisted, sick and two faced person. I've already seen it before where you try to play both sides and behind the other side hate everyone or attack everyone. Go fool someone else e-fool. Admit it this is all you have in your life anyway be thankful that MOS is on your side and allows you to troll this section. Otherwise you'd have nothing left in life.
Btw how's that hate going for you and your buddy Geert Wilders cause his former buddy is a Muslim now and has been going around with Muslims.
What says you? He was educated in your hateful ways and yet he is today a Muslim abandoning ignorance and educated on Islam.
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It's the only time I really got angry because you crossed the line. I feel disgusted even responding to you. You ridiculed the genocide of muslims in Burma. I still will say it again go off yourself. You're a disgrace to mankind and deserve to be in a mental institute. Your posts were deleted but you are going to go on and on about this now.
You're a twisted, sick and two faced person. I've already seen it before where you try to play both sides and behind the other side hate everyone or attack everyone. Go fool someone else e-fool. Admit it this is all you have in your life anyway be thankful that MOS is on your side and allows you to troll this section. Otherwise you'd have nothing left in life.
Btw how's that hate going for you and your buddy Geert Wilders cause his former buddy is a Muslim now and has been going around with Muslims.
What says you?
Stop pretending the Muslims are victims, this is why Muslims are despised. The Muslims in Burma gang-raped a girl and this was on top of many other provocations and terrorist acts. Everywhere Muslims go, they do this, they provoke and antagonise, this eventually forces other people to stand up for themselves, and whenever the victims stand up, Muslims try and paint them in a negative light. This is a well known Muslim tactic. It is juvenile and in most cases deadly. It is indeed you, as a muslim who ignores, supports and makes fun of the regular terrorist acts of your Islamic brothers. Not only do you not show the appropriate shame for such an action, you take pride in it. A more perverse human would be hard to find.
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You see this is where you are mentally sick in the head. You think you are actually speaking truth but you are so brainwashed with hate and lies that you don't even realize it. Somehow everyone is wrong and you are right. Jews are wrong when they speak truth about Muslims. White people who become Muslim are all brainwashed. 50% of American Muslims being converts they are all brainwashed. Geert Wilders' ex partner is not really a Muslim its all a plot. Muslims being victims its all an illusion its computer animated, its all lies.
Only you see things as perverted and demented and will make up bullshit on the go. "Muslims are raping everyone, Muslims are killing everyone, Muslims are going to eat your families, Muslims have lasers".
You're full of it and just don't know it yet.
And if an incident indeed occurs that involves a Muslim. There are Hindus raping, Christians raping, Atheists raping however your HATE and RAGE redirects your attention to Islam and Muslims. Yet the one thing you hate in Islam SHARIAH endorses punishment on Muslims who RAPE, the punishment for rape is DEATH and NO the victim does not get punished by protected and reconmpensed under SHARIAH.
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between an incident and an ALL OUT GENOCIDE against a people. Or ARMIES capturing people and killing thousands in a single line lined up with shooting squads.
You are mentally sick I swear to God if i was australian I would seek you out and local authorities and have you get some help.
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You see this is where you are mentally sick in the head. You think you are actually speaking truth but you are so brainwashed with hate and lies that you don't even realize it. Somehow everyone is wrong and you are right. Jews are wrong when they speak truth about Muslims. White people who become Muslim are all brainwashed. Geert Wilders' ex partner is not really a Muslim its all a plot. Muslims being victims its all an illusion its computer animated, its all lies.
Only you see things as perverted and demented and will make up bullshit on the go. "Muslims are raping everyone, Muslims are killing everyone, Muslims are going to eat your families, Muslims have lasers".
You're full of it and just don't know it yet.
Careful a-ahmed, you are beginning to melt again. I am trying hard to prevent extreme actions from you but you keep slipping back into the stereotypical rage filled Muslim, and we wouldn't want others to get the wrong idea about moderate Islam would we?
It's funny how others in the mainstream feel the same way I do.
Bill Maher recently said. “I mean there’s only one faith, for example, that kills you or wants to kill you if you draw a bad cartoon of the Prophet. There’s only one faith that kills you or wants to kill you if you renounce the faith. An ex-Muslim is a very dangerous thing. Talk to Salman Rushdie after the show about Christian versus Islam. So you know, I’m just saying, let’s keep it real. All religious are not alike. As many people have pointed out — ‘The Book of Mormon,’ did you see the show? … OK, can you imagine if they did ‘The Book of Islam’? Could they do that? There’s only one religion that threatens violence and carries it out for things like that. Could they do “The Book of Islam” on Broadway?”
After Maher’s guest tried to suggest that his point was mildly Islamophobic, the host took offense.
“You’re wrong about that, and you’re wrong about your facts,” he said. “Now, obviously, most Muslim people are not terrorists. But ask most Muslim people in the world — if you insult the Prophet, do you have what’s coming to you? It’s more than just a fringe element.”
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=468765.0;attach=514948;image)
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=468765.0;attach=514946;image)
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYJ8DMNRfqWoMy_3lK15AhJ8glxJZ7hge1ccBoTXMS14IxNNou)