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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Radical Plato on December 11, 2013, 04:57:19 PM
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A judge has let off a 16-year-old boy who killed four people while driving drunk after the teen's lawyers claimed his rich parents spoiled him and never taught him about consequences.
Ethan Couch of Keller, Texas, had faced 20 years behind bars but walked away with 10 years of probation Tuesday, something that angered his victims' families.
Couch's blood alcohol reading was .24 and he also had a Valium in his system after he and a group of friends stole alcohol from Walmart, drank it and later piled into his pick-up truck. Driving 70 miles in a 40 miles per hour zone, he struck and killed four pedestrians as well as injuring two of his own passengers who remain paralyzed.
Youth pastor Brian Jennings; mother and daughter Hollie and Shelby Boyles; and 24-year-old Breanna Mitchell all died in the accident.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/11/article-2521743-1A05495C00000578-22_634x386.jpg)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521743/Ethan-Couch-crash-Drink-driving-teen-killed-spared-jail-hes-rich.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521743/Ethan-Couch-crash-Drink-driving-teen-killed-spared-jail-hes-rich.html)
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A judge has let off a 16-year-old boy who killed four people while driving drunk after the teen's lawyers claimed his rich parents spoiled him and never taught him about consequences.
Seemed like a perfect time to learn no?
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so the christians got smoked
and the devil kid walks
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A judge has let off a 16-year-old boy who killed four people while driving drunk after the teen's lawyers claimed his rich parents spoiled him and never taught him about consequences.
Ethan Couch of Keller, Texas, had faced 20 years behind bars but walked away with 10 years of probation Tuesday, something that angered his victims' families.
Couch's blood alcohol reading was .24 and he also had a Valium in his system after he and a group of friends stole alcohol from Walmart, drank it and later piled into his pick-up truck. Driving 70 miles in a 40 miles per hour zone, he struck and killed four pedestrians as well as injuring two of his own passengers who remain paralyzed.
Youth pastor Brian Jennings; mother and daughter Hollie and Shelby Boyles; and 24-year-old Breanna Mitchell all died in the accident.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/11/article-2521743-1A05495C00000578-22_634x386.jpg)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521743/Ethan-Couch-crash-Drink-driving-teen-killed-spared-jail-hes-rich.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521743/Ethan-Couch-crash-Drink-driving-teen-killed-spared-jail-hes-rich.html)
He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
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Seemed like a perfect time to learn no?
Actually, this proves that they were right. No consequences. But, this will weigh heavily on his conscious. He will forever be known as the guy who killed 4 people and got off. If he was drinking before, he's gonna be a stone cold drunk from now on....so the christians got smoked
and the devil kid walks
he just created his own hell...
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He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
One of these days your gonna get punched in the face hard, please use your fucktard reasoning when it happens.
Anyhow this kid reminds me of this guy.
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Actually, this proves that they were right. No consequences. But, this will weigh heavily on his conscious. He will forever be known as the guy who killed 4 people and got off. If he was drinking before, he's gonna be a stone cold drunk from now on....he just created his own hell...
Ironically I know a guy that did something similar guys a bit of soulless nothing now.
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Ironically I know a guy that did something similar guys a bit of soulless nothing now.
Because it (the incident) effs with the mind. That you got off and that you are guilty. Throughout his whole teen yrs, the kids will remind him of it. And he will be considered a pariah. Which leads to more drinking due to depression or trying to forget it.
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One of these days your gonna get punched in the face hard, please use your fucktard reasoning when it happens.
Anyhow this kid reminds me of this guy.
No I`m not. I am usually armed. ;D
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He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
Your trolling has been complete shit the past few days.
Sometimes there is such a thing as too much chum in the water.
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This kid is pathetic. He won't learn, because he still hasn't been taught the consequences of his actions. Hopefully he did learn, but I doubt it.
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(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/11/article-2521743-1A05495C00000578-22_634x386.jpg)
Adonis pose
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No I`m not. I am usually armed. ;D
Yeah, 14 inch arms. ;D
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A judge has let off a 16-year-old boy who killed four people while driving drunk after the teen's lawyers claimed his rich parents spoiled him and never taught him about consequences.
Sounds about right
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It's what I've been saying for years about alcohol laws - they're intended to protect rich white people.
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He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
You are the only getbigger if I met in real life I would punch you in the face no questions ask.
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helps to be white and rich
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helps to be white and rich
I DO NOT trust rich WHITE people.
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Whitey is a pisser. No wonder he gets knocked the fuck out on WorldStarHipHop.
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Neither do I
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He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
What a sad little fella you are.. Don't give up on life man - you may have failed at everything so far but you can find soemthing your good at. I knew an insurance adjuster that your pic reminds me of - poor guy never realized what a laughing stock he was to the others.
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What a sad little fella you are.. Don't give up on life man - you may have failed at everything so far but you can find soemthing your good at. I knew an insurance adjuster that your pic reminds me of - poor guy never realized what a laughing stock he was to the others.
Sounds like you have some issues you need to work out with yourself. I knew you would get all curled up in a ball over this because of your penchant for overly attached youth ministers. Its okay to jettison your childhood superstition. However, I do not know if it will cure your lust.
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Ban Drunk Driving!!
and Trucks!!
and Wal-Mart for enabling!!!
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Even though his parents wealth and influence "saved" him from 20 years in prison, he is still fucked and he will not become the heir they were hoping for.
His life from now and 10 years won't be what they hoped it would be for him 5 years ago.
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'rich KID'
the kid is 16. so what, try him as an adult? put him on one of the toughest mainlines in the US penal system and have blacks split him up the middle like a ripe melon?
the judge clearly thought rehabilitation would be better than throwing this kids life away. he can still become a productive citizen. who knows maybe he'll save lives by sharing his experience with others.
the people he killed are dead. they aren't coming back. no amount of punishing this kid can fix that.
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'rich KID'
the kid is 16. so what, try him as an adult? put him on one of the toughest mainlines in the US penal system and have blacks split him up the middle like a ripe melon?
the judge clearly thought rehabilitation would be better than throwing this kids life away. he can still become a productive citizen. who knows maybe he'll save lives by sharing his experience with others.
the people he killed are dead. they aren't coming back. no amount of punishing this kid can fix that.
Good Idea, let's not punish people who kill others, after all, what's done is done. ::)
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Good Idea, let's not punish people who kill others, after all, what's done is done. ::)
what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives instead of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
forget the whole 'he's gotta live with what he's done for the rest of his life blah blah blah' it's a moot point cause so do the families of the people he killed.
your a fucked up angry dude. you can't see past your own hurt and pain from being attacked. in your mind you want everyone who wrongs someone to suffer the sAme pain as you or else 'they're getting off'.
look past yourself, your hatred and your pain and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything. he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid who might just be able to save a life.
of course that's not as good as getting your pound of flesh, is it?
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what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives I read of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
forget the whole 'he's gotta live with what he's done for the rest of his life blah blah blah' it's a moot point cause so do the families of the people he killed.
your a fucked up angry dude. you can't see past your own hurt and pain from being attacked. in your mind you want everyone who wrongs someone to suffer the sAme pain as you or else 'they're getting off'.
look past yourself, your hatred and your pain and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything. he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid who might just be able to save a life.
of course that's not as good as getting your pound of flesh, is it?
Good post
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Good post
thanks bro.
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Ironically I know a guy that did something similar guys a bit of soulless nothing now.
Sounds like me when I lived in the shit hole, Colorado. I was behind soulless minus killing people.
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what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives instead of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
forget the whole 'he's gotta live with what he's done for the rest of his life blah blah blah' it's a moot point cause so do the families of the people he killed.
your a fucked up angry dude. you can't see past your own hurt and pain from being attacked. in your mind you want everyone who wrongs someone to suffer the sAme pain as you or else 'they're getting off'.
look past yourself, your hatred and your pain and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything. he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid who might just be able to save a life.
of course that's not as good as getting your pound of flesh, is it?
What an absolute load of rubbish. Let me get this straight, a spoiled rich kid with unlimited money and access to anything he wants, steals alcohol, quaffs down a load of booze and drugs, drives at excessive speed in a reckless manner and kills 4 innocent people and seriously injures two others, and the rich kid is the victim in all this. Oh Brother!
This kid will never ever help a soul. By his lawyers own admission he suffers from "affluenza". To actually be able to help people you need to have suffered consequences for your actions. The consequences act as an incentive to help other people. Your argument is nonsense. What I want is the LAW to apply equally to ALL. Otherwise there is no point having LAWS and we may as well live in an anarchist society.
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Guess the race. :D
It pays to be rich...well played. ;)
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What an absolute load of rubbish. Let me get this straight, a spoiled rich kid with unlimited money and access to anything he wants, steals alcohol, quaffs down a load of booze and drugs, drives at excessive speed in a reckless manner and kills 4 innocent people and seriously injures two others, and the rich kid is the victim in all this. Oh Brother!
This kid will never ever help a soul. By his lawyers own admission he suffers from "affluenza". To actually be able to help people you need to have suffered consequences for your actions. The consequences act as an incentive to help other people. Your argument is nonsense. What I want is the LAW to apply equally to ALL. Otherwise there is no point having LAWS and we may as well live in an anarchist society.
i get you like to twist things and put words in people's mouth because you lack the ability to debate someone based on pure intelligence. you generate mistruths and exaggeration in an attempt to discredit there y solidifying your stance. don't try it w me, sparky, as I'm far more intelligent that you'll ever live to be. where in my post did I say he was a victim. could you highlight it for me I missed it.
the second thing you like to do is make statements you say as fact when they are nothing more than your opinion. 'this kid will never help a soul' for example. how did the LAW not apply to him. I must have missed the part where the judge thru the case out of the court. or wait, maybe your just way more intelligent than the judge hearing the case, who no doubt has decades of experience and education, and precedence that helped form his decision... and your who again? sorry if I missed your qualifications. I'm sure a judge has a better grasp of the LAW than E-Kul from the Internet.
these two points are the backbone of every argument you take on. how anyone can take you or anything you ever say seriously given that is beyond me.
sad part is you don't even do it on purpose. your not smart enough to do it on purpose. you're an accidental idiot rather than an intelligent manipulator.
in short your a fumbling bozo.
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Too much hair.
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i get you like to twist things and put words in people's mouth because you lack the ability to debate someone based on pure intelligence, so you generate mistruths and exaggeration in an attempt to discredit there y solidifying your stance but don't try it w me sparky I'm far more intelligent that you'll ever live to be. where in my post did I say he was a victim. could you highlight it for me I missed it.
the second thing you like to do is make statements you say as fact when they are nothing more than your opinion. 'this kid will never help a soul' for example.
these two points are the backbone of every argument you take on. how anyone can take you or anything you ever say seriously given that is beyond me.
sad part is you don't even do it on purpose. your not smart enough to do it on purpose. you're an accidental idiot rather than an intelligent manipulator.
Your entire post was a sickening minimisation and denial of the reality of the situation. By suggesting that he was just a kid, and that he may be able to help someone in the future and therefore doesn't deserve to be punished by the law the way anybody else would a similar circumstance was is a blatant attempt and positioning the perpetrator as some type of victim. You can use semantics and vague innuendo all you like, the true meaning behind your disgusting liberal faggotry is as clear as day, anyone of even the slightest intellect can see through your perverse view of the world. It is obvious you have also lived a spoiled existence and if it was you that was seriously injured left a paraplegic with only basic facial movements to communicate, we all know your sick liberal attitude would disappear faster than lightning.
The law isn't just to punish, but to act as a deterrent. If the LAW isn't implemented in such a way to deter individuals from acting recklessly and killing other people, then it has failed in it's objective. Your argument that the kid MAY save someones life in the future means little, when had they imprisoned him, the deterrent effect would have saved far more lives than this spoiled brat ever will.
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Your entire post was a sickening minimisation and denial of the reality of the situation. By suggesting that he was just a kid, and that he may be able to help someone in the future and therefore doesn't deserve to be punished by the law the way anybody else would a similar circumstance was is a blatant attempt and positioning the perpetrator as some type of victim. You can use semantics and vague innuendo all you like, the true meaning behind your disgusting liberal faggotry is as clear as day, anyone of even the slightest intellect can see through your perverse view of the world. It is obvious you have also lived a spoiled existence and if it was you that was seriously injured left a paraplegic with only basic facial movements to communicate, we all know your sick liberal attitude would disappear faster than lightning.
1) where did I say he didn't deserve to be punished by the law? highlight that please.
2) where did I say he was a victim? oh wait your telling me what I meant to say which thereby makes him a victim.
3) I deal in fact. that's why you get angry. you can't twist facts to suit your needs with me. therefor your the one dealing in 'innuendo' - every post you make reeks of it.
4) you're a bozo.
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He did a good thing. He killed a youth pastor. Just think, this youth pastor will now never infect any more minds with Religious poison.
There is something very rotten inside you.
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1) where did I say he didn't deserve to be punished by the law? highlight that please.
2) where did I say he was a victim? oh wait your telling me what I meant to say which thereby makes him a victim.
3) I deal in fact. that's why you get angry. you can't twist facts to suit your needs with me. therefor your the one dealing in 'innuendo' - every post you make reeks of it.
4) you're a bozo.
1) 'and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything'.- by throwing the kids life away you mean punishing the kid.
2) 'he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid' - meaning he's not someone who recklessly took 4 innocent lives and seriously injured 2 others, he's just an innocent sweet harmless little boy. That poor kid, he's the real victim. Gangbangers on the other hand, lock them up for smoking weed.
3) The fact is you're a liberal mangina and part of the reason the world is so morally bankrupt
4) Refer to #3
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Currently dateing rich-rich chick, local cops loved vino Christmas present from her grandpa
4x12 boxes of a gods drop is very acceptable & this is "not" corruption ;D
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what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives instead of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
Punishment is a deterrent to committing a crime.
Hence the term "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime".
I'll tell you how to save countless others from making the mistake he did - put a picture of him in every rich kids school -before jail and after 1 year inside. That should help.
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Guess the r
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what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives instead of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
forget the whole 'he's gotta live with what he's done for the rest of his life blah blah blah' it's a moot point cause so do the families of the people he killed.
your a fucked up angry dude. you can't see past your own hurt and pain from being attacked. in your mind you want everyone who wrongs someone to suffer the sAme pain as you or else 'they're getting off'.
look past yourself, your hatred and your pain and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything. he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid who might just be able to save a life.
of course that's not as good as getting your pound of flesh, is it?
If he was found guilty...I don't know the max nor the min in that state for killing someone or manslaughter...but multiply it by 4. Chances are he would go to a juvie facility until he is 18, and then go onto another facility. For let's say 20-50 yrs...
His life is gone? Possibly, but so are 4 others. He ruined 5 lives that day.
And him being incarcerated, regardless if there are blacks and Hispanics in there with him is the punishment.
He was a drunk 16 yr old, who got off allegedly on the defense that his parents didn't discipline him on the consequences of his actions. And neither did the courts. So, what does this prove?
If you are familiar with the US Justice system, there is a high rate of recidivism, especially amongst DUI cases. And if he got off for this one...
But, life has a way of dealing with these folks, his life will be made a living hell.
Just like the teen who took to twitter after she hit an elderly woman, and the woman expired....
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It's what I've been saying for years about alcohol laws - they're intended to protect rich white people.
It's called capitalism. The strong survive, and the weak die off.
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It's called capitalism. The strong survive, and the weak die off.
amen
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I don't believe every crime needs punishment...especially in cases like this. However, this kids defense is total bullshit and he should be thrown in jail for not accepting responsibility for his actions.
if you don't own up to it you're not truly sorry.
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Probably a time when I would have said "Yeah, but his guilt will eat him up"... probably was around 19 yrs old when I would think that. Now I know that there are a great number of people in this world who could slit your throat for $10 and sleep well that night. This kid likely will justify his actions in his own mind and is relieved he got away with it. A year from now it won't cross his mind at all. Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Where do you think con artists come from who can rip off an 86 year old lady out of her life savings in a scam and laugh about it? (If you said Nigeria, you're technically right) but it is from people without a conscience
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1) 'and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything'.- by throwing the kids life away you mean punishing the kid.
2) 'he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid' - meaning he's not someone who recklessly took 4 innocent lives and seriously injured 2 others, he's just an innocent sweet harmless little boy. That poor kid, he's the real victim. Gangbangers on the other hand, lock them up for smoking weed.
3) The fact is you're a liberal mangina and part of the reason the world is so morally bankrupt
4) Refer to #3
Good post.
The kid should fry, period. An example to the other rich kids who now think they can get away with the same crime.
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Righteous indignation: 66%
Pontification: 33%
Proprietary matter: 1%
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This is what I would want to happen. In jail he is protected from me, but free I am able to have access to him, kidnap him and spend years torturing the mutherfucker
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You are the only getbigger if I met in real life I would punch you in the face no questions ask.
We can only hope and pray that some rich, drunk, spoiled kid runs over "True" Adonis with a truck one day...
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Probably a time when I would have said "Yeah, but his guilt will eat him up"... probably was around 19 yrs old when I would think that. Now I know that there are a great number of people in this world who could slit your throat for $10 and sleep well that night. This kid likely will justify his actions in his own mind and is relieved he got away with it. A year from now it won't cross his mind at all. Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Where do you think con artists come from who can rip off an 86 year old lady out of her life savings in a scam and laugh about it? (If you said Nigeria, you're technically right) but it is from people without a conscience
It's sad, but I think you're probably right.
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Probably a time when I would have said "Yeah, but his guilt will eat him up"... probably was around 19 yrs old when I would think that. Now I know that there are a great number of people in this world who could slit your throat for $10 and sleep well that night. This kid likely will justify his actions in his own mind and is relieved he got away with it. A year from now it won't cross his mind at all. Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Where do you think con artists come from who can rip off an 86 year old lady out of her life savings in a scam and laugh about it? (If you said Nigeria, you're technically right) but it is from people without a conscience
Since the dawn of mankind there has been this type of person. It will never change. technology today just makes you more aware of the look at me generation but historically these type of people have been around forever.
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For those responding to TA's comment on page one of the thread I'd suggest leaving it alone.
He says stuff like that all the time to elicit the exact response you're giving him....he gets off on it.
Of course he'll defend with, "No, I genuinely belief this to be true," or something similar shrouded in a "good for the betterment of mankind" spiel.....it's part of the game (he'll also say there's "no game").
Why? To further eliciting more of the same response LOL.
I responded initially also, but immediately deleted it when I realized I was feeding into his ploy.
In this case best to not feed the troll.....do that and they'll go away cause they're bored.
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how is he walking free bc his parents are rich?
are there similair cases where parents werent rich?
lets see if he learn something from it, the next time theres no excuse
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Seemed like a perfect time to learn no?
"June's car crash wasn't the first time underage drinking had got Couch in trouble.
In February of this year, in the town Lakeside, northwest of Fort Worth, police found Couch with a 12-ounce can of beer and a 1.75-liter bottle of vodka in the early hours and gave him two citations - one for being a minor in possession of alcohol, the other for consuming alcohol as a minor."
Yeah, he's a real quick learner this one.
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so the christians got smoked
and the devil kid walks
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a 1%er rolled over 4 peasant-proles, whats there to be upset about?
the 1% er needed bit drug time and fun out to be creative , and the proles jump infront of his car?what were they thinking?
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this is why you don't let fucking 16 year olds drive. change the shit to drinking age, 21 minimum.
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i dont get it, if this bastard walks free what example is given to the other spoiled bastards who drive boozed? 0, they have a precedent where the criminal escapes easy and they have 0 motives to not push the pedal
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how is he walking free bc his parents are rich?
are there similair cases where parents werent rich?
lets see if he learn something from it, the next time theres no excuse
Simple formula: rich family uses the best lawyers because they can afford to pay $ 2000 to 5000 per hour
public prosecutor has no chance against top guns from law establishments
as one person told me, only the stupid end up behind bars ;)
Just like someone who makes 1 billion dollars, easily pays much less tax than someone who makes far far less, law was written by
rich for the rich.
How many billioners kids/grand kids died or went to Iraq,Afghanistan ??? 1 English prince & he was guarded to the max ! , just
for publicity , now masses adore his courage :-\ while nobody care about Paddy from Royal Irish brigade or James from Bravo Company.
The 2nd formula: if you can't beat them (rich ones), join them there is always whore in the family ;) :D
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Rich people don't go to jail. Life's like a shit sandwich and the more doe you have the less shit u gotta eat
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i get you like to twist things and put words in people's mouth because you lack the ability to debate someone based on pure intelligence. you generate mistruths and exaggeration in an attempt to discredit there y solidifying your stance. don't try it w me, sparky, as I'm far more intelligent that you'll ever live to be. where in my post did I say he was a victim. could you highlight it for me I missed it.
the second thing you like to do is make statements you say as fact when they are nothing more than your opinion. 'this kid will never help a soul' for example. how did the LAW not apply to him. I must have missed the part where the judge thru the case out of the court. or wait, maybe your just way more intelligent than the judge hearing the case, who no doubt has decades of experience and education, and precedence that helped form his decision... and your who again? sorry if I missed your qualifications. I'm sure a judge has a better grasp of the LAW than E-Kul from the Internet.
these two points are the backbone of every argument you take on. how anyone can take you or anything you ever say seriously given that is beyond me.
sad part is you don't even do it on purpose. your not smart enough to do it on purpose. you're an accidental idiot rather than an intelligent manipulator.
in short your a fumbling bozo.
For someone so smart you sure do a look of name-calling ???
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For someone so smart you sure do a look of name-calling ???
this is the dumbest thing i have ever read. are you retarded?
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what's punish? throwing the kid to the Hispanics and blacks? have him come out of there worthless and broken? does that make it all better A-Fool? lose 5 lives instead of 4 when you could have saved one that could possibly save countless others from making the same mistake he did?
forget the whole 'he's gotta live with what he's done for the rest of his life blah blah blah' it's a moot point cause so do the families of the people he killed.
your a fucked up angry dude. you can't see past your own hurt and pain from being attacked. in your mind you want everyone who wrongs someone to suffer the sAme pain as you or else 'they're getting off'.
look past yourself, your hatred and your pain and see that throwing this kids life away isn't going to help anything. he's not some 25 year old gangbanger on strike 3. he's a 16 year old kid who might just be able to save a life.
Great post.
of course that's not as good as getting your pound of flesh, is it?
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What's the parents net worth? There are a few times when it may be acceptable to take the law in your own hands and provide "street" justice...A simple sniper shot to the kids head would give many victims family members a lot of satisfaction and make it easier to move on...