Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Big_D on January 17, 2006, 07:59:52 AM
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
Are you afraid of addiction?
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
These are just sincere question, not to be interpreted as an attack!
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I don't juice however i do know that you dont always lose your gains. You might lose some but you dont lose all if you know what your doing.
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For me it's a case of "two steps forward and one step back." My experience has been that I keep anywhere from 5 to 8 pounds of muscle from a cycle and my biggest weight gain has been 30 pounds with the average at 20. I don't consider myself a guru and I don't experiment with a lot of different substances. My cycles revolve around Cyp, Winstrol, D-Bol, Arimidex, and Nolva. I would say that I am not addicted to the stuff, but if I were to be objective I'm not sure how I would react to not being able to cycle two or three times a year. When I'm on I feel (at times) unstoppable with a really good outlook and in increased sense of well being. That doesn't change a lot when I'm off but it does change a little. I'm 36 and have three kids so I'm not worried about any of that stuff. And from what I've read, I still haven't seen anything that can be related to long term health problems that couldn't be explained by other aspects of ones lifestyle or state of mind. At the doses I'm cycling, I don't forsee any adverse long term problems. I also visit my doctor after each cycle to make sure that I haven't overlooked something.
Parker Boy
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I don't juice however i do know that you dont always lose your gains. You might lose some but you dont lose all if you know what your doing.
yea if you keep eating like a horse and training like an animal
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Yes but that´s the case with natural training too.
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
Are you afraid of addiction?
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
These are just sincere question, not to be interpreted as an attack!
1) my body..my choice
2)yes personally i lost most of the gains i made...but then again..i eat like crap and hardly train when off
3) no i dont worry about producing my own test..sometimes not being horney is friggin great...you should see how much tail starts chasing ya all of a sudden when ya stop chasing it...thing is..you dont really want it..its great..
4) so what :-\
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
Are you afraid of addiction?
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
You dont lose the all the gains you made when on cycle.....for the most part all you lose is the water weight, if you continue to eat right and train well after the cycle there is no reason why you cant keep most of what you gained.....the problem is the crash in strength after a cycle can be demoralising and thats when people coming off cycle think 'fuck it' and start skipping the gym.....the hardest part of using gear is the 8 weeks or so after a cycle when you feel weak as a baby and the gym is the last thing on your mind....if you can keep lifting through this period then you will keep most of your gains.
How much you keep depends on how you keep eating and training after the cycle has finished, eat well and train hard (even though it may be the last thing you feel like doing) and you will keep a good ammount of your muscle gained on gear.
Other factors include what gear you've used during the cycle, test will bloat me right up and cause me to hold pounds and pounds of water....therefore i know when i come off cycle that i will lose a huge ammount of weight due to my body excreting all the water i've been carrying.
I tend to use cycles based around milder, low dosage gear like Winstrol, Primo, Anavar etc to minimize the water retention....the gains arent as dramatic as they are with test but i know that the weight i'm gaining is muscle and not water.
As for the psychological effect of dramatic gains when on cycle and losses when off cycle. Like i said above, the loss of weight after a cycle can be minimized, you will obviously lose all the water but the muscle can be held onto.
Part of the reason i switched over to non test cycles was because of the psychological effects of gaining 14lbs in 8 weeks, being strong as an ox and then losing 7lb of bloat and being weak as shit when i came off.....it was (as someone earlier wrote) two steps forward and one step back....and it wasnt for me.
I prefer steroids with less side effects, less water retention and steadier gains....when i gain 7lb on a Primo/Anavar cycle i know its muscle, theres no moonface, no back acne, no sweating that i used to get from test....and although i dont get the increases in strength that test used to give me, i can live with that....i'm not a power lifter.
Not afraid of addiction, dont have that type of personality.
What is a safe ammount?....how long is a piece of string?.....it will vary from person to person, some people can take huge ammounts of gear and have no sides and others (like me) only need 750mgs week of test and i'm sweating like a pig, breaking out in spots and filling up with water!.....if you dont like the sides, change the gear or drop the dose.
There are anti estrogens around to minimize gyno and other ancillaries that can be used for water retention, this all adds to the cost of a cycle though so thats another reason why i dont bother with gear that gives me nasty sides. Its trial and error a lot of the time until you find what works for you.
Dont worry about my test levels in the future, if you could see me and my dad (and all the other blokes on my dads side of the family for that matter) then you would know why!....we seem to have high test levels anyway....i.e we look like a bunch of hairy apes even without gear.....maybe i'm being flippant but theres always HRT if i'm proved wrong.
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Now that was an answer, Deviant! Since you have changed your cycle to one with less side effects, is it not as effective as the other cycle?
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For me it's a case of "two steps forward and one step back." My experience has been that I keep anywhere from 5 to 8 pounds of muscle from a cycle and my biggest weight gain has been 30 pounds with the average at 20. I don't consider myself a guru and I don't experiment with a lot of different substances. My cycles revolve around Cyp, Winstrol, D-Bol, Arimidex, and Nolva. I would say that I am not addicted to the stuff, but if I were to be objective I'm not sure how I would react to not being able to cycle two or three times a year. When I'm on I feel (at times) unstoppable with a really good outlook and in increased sense of well being. That doesn't change a lot when I'm off but it does change a little. I'm 36 and have three kids so I'm not worried about any of that stuff. And from what I've read, I still haven't seen anything that can be related to long term health problems that couldn't be explained by other aspects of ones lifestyle or state of mind. At the doses I'm cycling, I don't forsee any adverse long term problems. I also visit my doctor after each cycle to make sure that I haven't overlooked something.
Parker Boy
Parker boy.....do you mind if i ask....Does your wife or family know that you do it?
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personally i lost most of the gains i made...but then again..i eat like crap and hardly train when off
Basically mindless. Reminds of those dumbasses on the MTV show whose lives & workout intensity both seem to revolve around their cycles.
As mentioned, some brands that seem to create slower growth also allow retention of most of the gains if coupled with maintenance of post-cycle workouts and diet.
Anyone who falls off of workouts post-cycle's got a problem and is using AAS as a crutch.
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Basically mindless.
As mentioned, it seems that each brand creates a different effect, as as do post-cycle workouts and diet. If everything's in place it seems that 60-70% of gains are retained.
What about strength?
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Yes but that´s the case with natural training too.
Not really....hard earned gains from natural training are much more lasting. Juiced gains require juice to maintain for the most part. Of course, you will retain a small portion of your sauced gains, but nothing like what you'll maintain with a natural training regimen. All things equal, I'd estimate if both juiced and natty lifters halted all training for a period of 6 months that the juicer would maintain <=20% of their gains while a natty would maintain 70-80%....I'm no expert though.....my conclusions are based own observations.
MOS
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Parker boy.....do you mind if i ask....Does your wife or family know that you do it?
No, I don't mind at all. No, they do not know that I juice. I struggle with that decision though.....
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Since you have changed your cycle to one with less side effects, is it not as effective as the other cycle?
Depends what you're looking for....i'm past the stage where i want to get as big as possible, have been heavy a few years ago and felt uncomfortable, unfit and sweated a lot!
My cycles when i was constantly trying to get bigger were always test based, with ususally deca or d-bol as the other gear added on.
Now i just do the occasional cycle (perhaps once a year) and i favour things like primo as the injectable and maybe anavar as the oral....keeps it simple, stops me blowing up like a balloon and negates the need for anti-estrogens and PCT as i have no noticeable sides from cycles like these.....keeps the cost down too!
These cycles dont give me the strength and pumps that the test based cycles gave but i also dont experience the crash from coming off test like i used to.....and obviously i dont gain the outright weight that test/deca/d-bol used to give but i also dont piss half of it away after 12 weeks!
Much happier now doing a milder 10 week cycle, gaining perhaps 5lbs and keeping it.
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Im not afraid of losing gains cos i wont lose them cos i plan to stay on gear all the time, i couldnt give a shit what the damage might be
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No, I don't mind at all. No, they do not know that I juice. I struggle with that decision though.....
ok i am sorry just a bit of confidence for myself....I'd have to hide it. I know that you gain but that can be anything.
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Im not afraid of losing gains cos i wont lose them cos i plan to stay on gear all the time, i couldnt give a shit what the damage might be
AWESOME!
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Depends what you're looking for....i'm past the stage where i want to get as big as possible, have been heavy a few years ago and felt uncomfortable, unfit and sweated a lot!
My cycles when i was constantly trying to get bigger were always test based, with ususally deca or d-bol as the other gear added on.
Now i just do the occasional cycle (perhaps once a year) and i favour things like primo as the injectable and maybe anavar as the oral....keeps it simple, stops me blowing up like a balloon and negates the need for anti-estrogens and PCT as i have no noticeable sides from cycles like these.....keeps the cost down too!
These cycles dont give me the strength and pumps that the test based cycles gave but i also dont experience the crash from coming off test like i used to.....and obviously i dont gain the outright weight that test/deca/d-bol used to give but i also dont piss half of it away after 12 weeks!
Much happier now doing a milder 10 week cycle, gaining perhaps 5lbs and keeping it.
So what is the benefit of this cycle and what is the benefit of cycling only once a year?
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
Assuming I did, I guess it woud be casue I like how I look from it.
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
None, you will eventually lose it all. Bigget misconception of all.
Are you afraid of addiction?
No
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Everyone is different
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
No
These are just sincere question, not to be interpreted as an attack!
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How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
None, you will eventually lose it all. Bigget misconception of all.
So you're saying you lose it all?
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So what is the benefit of this cycle and what is the benefit of cycling only once a year?
The benefit of the cycles i use now are that i dont get any side effects....
....as for my choice of using gear once a year?.....to be honest i'd struggle to answer that, there are no benefits and there are no drawbacks, i just like to use some juice once in a while and make some gains a little bit easier than i otherwise might have.
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So you're saying you lose it all?
Yes
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
Are you afraid of addiction?
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
These are just sincere question, not to be interpreted as an attack!
1.) I don't lose all gains because I use proper PCT (post-cycle therapy) thereby allowing my hormone levels to self-regulate faster, enabling me to keep a good amount of my gains, specifically strength.
2.) There is no set figure, it really depends on alot of factors. I don't mega-dose, so I would say on average I keep about 60%-70% of my gains from a cycle.
3.) I'm a Psychology major, addiction itself is something I've never been prone to and I can't see AAS changing that. It's all about realistic expectations knowing when you come off, there is an adjustment period when you need to be patient.
4.) If we're talking Testosterone alone, I would stay withing 250MG-1G ew, anything over for a recreational user is mega-dosing. The closer you stay to homeostasis, the more gains you will keep. This is law. Sides very according to the individual's genetic predisposition, so that's variable.
5.) I'm not worried about permanent HPTA suppression, because it has been shown consistently over time that once all AAS are ceased, the body's endegenous testosterone levels will rise to meet demand. I suppose it's a concern to be dependant on HRT for eternity for those IFBB pros who have been megadosing since their teenage years, but for the average lifter out there this is not a realistic fear.
"You don't know the power of the Dark Side........ "
DIV
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Why do you juice if you know that when you get off of a cycle you will lose those gains?
How much of the gains do you retain after a cycle?
Are you afraid of addiction?
The psychological effects of gaining when your on and losing when your not could be damaging, increasing your dependence.
What is consider a safe amount with minimal, if no negative side effects?
Do you worry about not being able to produce testosterone on your own in the future like Flex Wheeler?
These are just sincere question, not to be interpreted as an attack!
Ballooning up 45 pounds and resembling a gorrilla is addictive but not to the point of long term organ damage
No, you have to be a fool that you can hold onto one ounce of your gains when coming off.
No i Accept i will hit my natural bodyweight when off and to be quiet serious if you have a addictive side you could be in trouble as the most effective cycles are dangerous longterm.I enjoy going from a gorilla to a natural athletic physique no addictions.
I know guys who are on all year and they have the Don Youngblood look Red in the face circulation problems blueish hands, Scary These guys are addicted they cannot except the losses that will come with non use.
Just under 4 grams per week will miss a few weeks if the Doc tells me i am doing harm to my body.A cycle lasts 3 to 6 months depending on what im taking,once a year.
As long as my testicles have not shrunk my doctor uses HCG i think thats the name could be wrong as postcycle therapy.If i meet the right girl and want to have kids i will never use while trying for a baby because you are basically infertile and there is small chance it could fuck up your chance of having kids.
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No, you have to be a fool that you can hold onto one ounce of your gains when coming off.
You are a fool if you think you will lose every ounce of your gains. Of course if you are taking 4G of AAS ew, you are mega-dosing anyway and you will only keep a small percentage of your gains.
It's all about homeostatis. The more you go away from it, the less you will keep. Keep your cycles compact, tight and within reason and you will keep gains. If you megadose you will only set yourself up for a fall when you come off.
This is real.
Learn.
DIV
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I say......
get juiced to the gills!
You too can look like this after a few cycles:
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/knny187/chubs.jpg)
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You are a fool if you think you will lose every ounce of your gains. Of course if you are taking 4G of AAS ew, you are mega-dosing anyway and you will only keep a small percentage of your gains.
It's all about homeostatis. The more you go away from it, the less you will keep. Keep your cycles compact, tight and within reason and you will keep gains. If you megadose you will only set yourself up for a fall when you come off.
This is real.
Learn.
DIV
Its all relative using a postcycle therapy,maybe you will hod on to your gains longer but not for ever,eventually they will dissapate over time unless start the whole cycle over again.
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It's correct that you are not going to keep gains using pct when someone uses 1-3 grams a week. For those of you who think that your going to keep some of your gains doing "compact" cycles, well if using a few clomid tabs and HCG helps you keep the gains you got from steroids then you should have just used clomid and hcg in the first place cause your steroids cycle was worthless to begin with.
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i keep most of my size and strength gains off cycle, reps decrease a little, after 3-5 months off i start losing size, so yes you will eventually lose the size you gained on cycle maybe not all of it but most of it, depends on the person.
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Its all relative using a postcycle therapy,maybe you will hod on to your gains longer but not for ever,eventually they will dissapate over time unless start the whole cycle over again.
Time on = Time off.
Assuming you are in this game for the long haul, you will be going on cycle again, so your theory of losing all gains holds no merit.
Who does one cycle and stops? People who aren't committed to begin with.
It's correct that you are not going to keep gains using pct when someone uses 1-3 grams a week. For those of you who think that your going to keep some of your gains doing "compact" cycles, well if using a few clomid tabs and HCG helps you keep the gains you got from steroids then you should have just used clomid and hcg in the first place cause your steroids cycle was worthless to begin with.
Evidently you aren't skooled on new PCT strategies.....
HCG taken on-cycle will help keep your nuts functioning so they don't shrivel up.
Cutting down the lag between the end of the cycle and start of PCT is what allows one to keep the majority of gains (provided you aren't megadosing).
All you need for PCT: Nolvadex, HCG and Aromasin......
Clomid is outdated for PCT purposes......as Nolvadex can fill estrogen receptors and stimulate LH/FSH much better and HCG is the be all/end all for stimulating the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Aromasin is an anti-aromatase that won't inhibit the function of the Nolvadex.
I know you haven't tried this PCT, Disgusted, because if you had you wouldn't be whining......
DIV
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The facts
1. PCT will not help one keep gains from megadosing
2. (in your case) No combo albeit fancy as you may try of non steroidal drugs will let you keep gains that you have made from using steroids.
Once you quit your pct and steroids your gains will disappear eventually. The only reason to do PCT is if you want your testicals to work again. Clomid alone will do this and I have seen it done many times.
Use steroids and grow. Stop steroids and shrink back to normal. Do PCT and delay (slightly) the inevitable.
PCT is a waste of time for any other reason.
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The facts
1. PCT will not help one keep gains from megadosing
2. (in your case) No combo albeit fancy as you may try of non steroidal drugs will let you keep gains that you have made from using steroids.
Once you quit your pct and steroids your gains will disappear eventually. The only reason to do PCT is if you want your testicals to work again. Clomid alone will do this and I have seen it done many times.
Use steroids and grow. Stop steroids and shrink back to normal. Do PCT and delay (slightly) the inevitable.
PCT is a waste of time for any other reason.
Those aren't facts, Disgusted.
Unless you have clinical studies backing that, they mean nothing.........only your opinion.
As I said before.......who does one cycle and stops? Those who aren't committed to this game for the long haul.
In that case, yes, eventually they would regress to the mean; though if they quit after one cycle they probably wouldn't care anyway. See my point?
Cycling isn't something you do once and never again. Common sense?
DIV
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You guys are going above my head. This leads me to ponder how many users are this well schooled on the subject?
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WHERE'S PART ONE?
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You guys are going above my head. This leads me to ponder how many users are this well schooled on the subject?
Unfortunately I think there are a lot of users out there that are pressured, either by themselves or by other users, to cross over to the dark side based simply by what they see and hear. IMO you can't be lazy when it comes to the knowledge surrounding steroid use but many jump in without knowing exactly what effects they may encounter. So and so is taking 1,000 mg and he is bigger than me so I need to take 1,000 mg. Based on what I know about AAS and the people that I know are using, I would say that less than 20% are "schooled" enough on the subject. Also, I learned a lot about how my body responded and recovered from cycles as I went along. This is valuable knowledge but if you jump into the "deep end" too soon your lesson may be harder to learn.
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Unfortunately I think there are a lot of users out there that are pressured, either by themselves or by other users, to cross over to the dark side based simply by what they see and hear. IMO you can't be lazy when it comes to the knowledge surrounding steroid use but many jump in without knowing exactly what effects they may encounter. So and so is taking 1,000 mg and he is bigger than me so I need to take 1,000 mg. Based on what I know about AAS and the people that I know are using, I would say that less than 20% are "schooled" enough on the subject. Also, I learned a lot about how my body responded and recovered from cycles as I went along. This is valuable knowledge but if you jump into the "deep end" too soon your lesson may be harder to learn.
This is what I see a lot. Uniformed men and teenagers jumping in and looking crazy as hell, then when they get off, they crash hard. When they are on, they look sick as hell, red and unhealthy.
A pro works out at my gym and he talked about people going over board, especially in the pro's. He says he uses moderate doses and he looks big and healthy all year round. He is big on Insulin though and I don' think that is too safe.
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WHERE'S PART ONE?
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Go back a few pages :P!
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Mike Matarazzo never used insuline.
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Those aren't facts, Disgusted.
Unless you have clinical studies backing that, they mean nothing.........only your opinion.
As I said before.......who does one cycle and stops? Those who aren't committed to this game for the long haul.
In that case, yes, eventually they would regress to the mean; though if they quit after one cycle they probably wouldn't care anyway. See my point?
Cycling isn't something you do once and never again. Common sense?
DIV
Then prove me wrong with your clinical studies? I know of no clinical studies on PCT for bodybuilders and even if there were it is of no use other than what I mentioned in my last post. Stop trying to complicate things by pretending bodybuilding is a science experiment.
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Evidently you aren't skooled on new PCT strategies.....
HCG taken on-cycle will help keep your nuts functioning so they don't shrivel up.
Cutting down the lag between the end of the cycle and start of PCT is what allows one to keep the majority of gains (provided you aren't megadosing).
All you need for PCT: Nolvadex, HCG and Aromasin......
Clomid is outdated for PCT purposes......as Nolvadex can fill estrogen receptors and stimulate LH/FSH much better and HCG is the be all/end all for stimulating the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Aromasin is an anti-aromatase that won't inhibit the function of the Nolvadex.
I know you haven't tried this PCT, Disgusted, because if you had you wouldn't be whining......
DIV
Dude, I suspect you have read Anthony Roberts' PCT article. Correct?
You need to take a harder look at this stuff and not just swallow up everything some new "guru" is touting for the moment. Fact is, Roberts' pulls a bunch of stuff out of his ass and a lot of it is more hypothesis than fact. Clomid isn't outdated. It has been shown to work in restoring the HPTA after a steroid cycle in studies. Sure, nolva might work a bit better, who knows, but a lot of people also think it's more toxic than clomid. It's a known carcinogen also. Liver toxic too.
Don't be so uncritical Div. Just because you do the latest, greatest PCT doesn't mean it fail safe. Are you getting your T levels checked frequently?
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Then prove me wrong with your clinical studies? I know of no clinical studies on PCT for bodybuilders and even if there were it is of no use other than what I mentioned in my last post. Stop trying to complicate things by pretending bodybuilding is a science experiment.
That's my point, Disgusted.
There are no clinical studies for our control group (lifters using AAS) because it doesn't apply to medical research, has no realistic application that the FDA considers "worthy".
As far as I'm concerned this is all the undiscovered country. What works for you may not work for me due to genetic predisposition, but on that same token you can't make hard and fast rules based on hearsay. Your "facts" are bullshit, and can't be proven. You only know what works for you, so keep your comments limited to that and you'll be fine. Otherwise you're reaching...........and I caught you.
Dude, I suspect you have read Anthony Roberts' PCT article. Correct?You need to take a harder look at this stuff and not just swallow up everything some new "guru" is touting for the moment. Fact is, Roberts' pulls a bunch of stuff out of his ass and a lot of it is more hypothesis than fact. Clomid isn't outdated. It has been shown to work in restoring the HPTA after a steroid cycle in studies. Sure, nolva might work a bit better, who knows, but a lot of people also think it's more toxic than clomid. It's a known carcinogen also. Liver toxic too.
Don't be so uncritical Div. Just because you do the latest, greatest PCT doesn't mean it fail safe. Are you getting your T levels checked frequently?
I form my beliefs based on experience and reading all the latest information from all the gurus: Roberts, Llewellyn, Duchaine, Rea.....
I don't weigh any one more than the others, but I take what they say and apply it, and if it works for me, then so be it. I know it's not the gospel, that's understood.
Nolvadex works better than Clomid for purposes of a PCT stack. It blocks estrogen more readily and stimulates FSH/LH and at a lower dose than Clomid. You need 150MG of Clomid to get the same benefit from 20MG of Nolvadex.
If Nolvadex was that much of a danger, carcinogenic as you say, then why is it given to female cancer patients? I get regular bloodwork, so my Test, hepatic, BP, thyroid are all in check.
Say what you will about Roberts, but his adding Aromasin to PCT for purposes of an anti-aromatase was genius. Arimidex and Femara inhibit Nolvadex, while Aromasin provides a synergistic effect for bringing endegenous hormone levels back up to par.
DIV
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That's my point, Disgusted.
There are no clinical studies for our control group (lifters using AAS) because it doesn't apply to medical research, has no realistic application that the FDA considers "worthy".
As far as I'm concerned this is all the undiscovered country. What works for you may not work for me due to genetic predisposition, but on that same token you can't make hard and fast rules based on hearsay. Your "facts" are bullshit, and can't be proven. You only know what works for you, so keep your comments limited to that and you'll be fine. Otherwise you're reaching...........and I caught you.
Come on Div, caught me? ::) Your the one making the claims. Your argument is obviously falling apart since you are resorting to name calling.
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why do people do anything that is bad for them? Do you eat beef? Is it organic? Do you follow strict regimen of whole organic foods? Then you are doing damage to your body. Do you drink alcohol? Juice? Soda? All bad for you. Do you have a genetic predispoition to cancer? Diabetes? Do you have unprotected sex?
At least steroids have some kind of positive effect on people. Otherwise they wouldn't take them. Who gives a shit what you are gonna be like when you are 60, with your liver falling out. Chances are it would happen anyway from something else.
I don't take AAS but I learn about them and i toy with the idea of trying a cycle to see for myself what the hype is about. Are there risks? Sure, what doesn't have risks? You risk your life every time you open your eyes to start the day. Why don't you find a rave bulletin board and ask people why they do Extacy? Go to a bar and pester the smokers. Don't come in here and badmouth steroids, that's just trolling.
This advice brought to you from a steroid free weightlifter. Oh shit wait, I eat meat that was fed bovine growth hormones, I guess Im on the shit too.
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Everyone has to make up their own mind. I think it's safe to say this protocol is experimental at this point, and far from proven superior. How many do blood work after PCT anyway?
Here's a good read for those interested in this new protocol:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595
Here's a bit about Nolva's carcinogenic effects from one article:
CARCINOGENENIC EFFECTS
It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.
In California there is a law called "Proposition 65" that requires the state to publish and maintain a list of all known carcinogens. In May 1995, the state's Carcinogen Identification Committee voted unanimously to add tamoxifen to its list.
Following suit, in 1996 the World Health Organization formally designated tamoxifen a human carcinogen, grouping it with 70 other chemicals — about one quarter of them pharmaceuticals — that have received this dubious distinction.
Cont...
Liver Cancer and Liver Disease
Tamoxifen is toxic to the liver, and there have been reports of acute hepatitis in patients treated with tamoxifen. Liver damage has occurred in every animal given tamoxifen. According to Gary Williams, medical director of the American Heart Foundation, tamoxifen has been shown in animal studies to be a "rip-roaring" liver carcinogen, inducing highly aggressive cancers in about 12 per cent of rats. (7)
The latest human studies show a six-fold increase in liver cancer among women taking tamoxifen for more than two years." Liver failure and tamoxifen-induced hepatitis, although rare, have been reported. Even Zeneca admits that tamoxifen is a liver carcinogen — while nevertheless aggressively promoting its use.