Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Natural Bodybuilding => Topic started by: Oliver Klaushof on January 22, 2006, 12:45:40 AM
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That's why you started bodybuilding right? You were a skinny kid. That's me anyway. 165 out of high school at 5'11''. I'm 6' 186 at age 21 now and gaining. I've only worked out a year or so and it was half-assed. Sometimes I took 2 weeks off. Still managed to gain 20 pounds of lean mass without using steroids.
I GNC weight gainer 2200 when I first started to kick start my training and get the necessary protein, calories, and amino acids. The stuff really worked for me. I ignored the directions and just used 2 scoops in 1 liter or so of whole milk once daily. I just cut the top off a 2-liter of Coca- Cola and that served as a good mixing jug. That was more than enough. That on top of eating everything in sight. At one point I was starting to collect some fat under my chin, but having a fast metabolism I was able to shed it very quickly. I think the stuff was great. It has 2200 calories, all your amino acids, and 40 grams of protein all in one. I'm to the point now that I don't feel like I need it.
Now I just eat whatever I want, but I make sure to get some extra protein in. I'm eating 4-6 eggs whites with 1 or 2 yokes daily. I try to get some red meat too. Nothing beats real food. Powders just don't compare. I'm going to incorporate situps in my routine shortly too. Doing situps when you just start is counterproductive for hardgainers. You just burn all the calories. Once you put on some weight and get the natural hormone levels going you can add them in.
I try to follow this guideline when working out -
I do 2 sets of each exercise and do about 3 or 4 exercises per bodypart.
I don't workout more than 3 days a week.
I only do heavy exercises like squats and deadlifts every other week, but not both the same week.
Once every month or so I take a week off.
On the second set of the exercise I go until failure using my other hand to assist the lift.
WEEK I WEEK II
SUNDAY-Biceps,Forearms SUNDAY-Biceps, Forearms
Cheat Curls - 1 set (SAME AS WEEK ONE)
Concentration Curls - 2 sets
Outer Bicep Curls - 2 sets
Hammer Curls - 1 set
Brachioradialis(reverse curl)- 2 sets
Extensors - 2 sets
Flexors - 2 sets
Grippers - failure
TUESDAY-Chest,Triceps TUESDAY-Deltoids, Triceps
Free Weight Press - 2 sets Overhead Press - 2 sets
Dumbell Flys - 2 sets Front Deltoid Raises - 1 set to failure
Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set Side Deltoid raises - 2 sets
Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set
Triceps Ext. Grip3 - 1 set Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set Tricep Ext. Grip3 - 1 set
FRIDAY-Back FRIDAY-Legs
Deadlift - 2 sets Front Squats - 2 sets
Shrugs - 2 sets Calf Raises - 2 sets
Fireman's carry - Failure
Bent Row - 2 sets
Single Arm Row - 1 set
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That's why you started bodybuilding right? You were a skinny kid. That's me anyway. 165 out of high school at 5'11''. I'm 6' 186 at age 21 now and gaining. I've only worked out a year or so and it was half-assed. Sometimes I took 2 weeks off. Still managed to gain 20 pounds of lean mass without using steroids.
I GNC weight gainer 2200 when I first started to kick start my training and get the necessary protein, calories, and amino acids. The stuff really worked for me. I ignored the directions and just used 2 scoops in 1 liter or so of whole milk once daily. I just cut the top off a 2-liter of Coca- Cola and that served as a good mixing jug. That was more than enough. That on top of eating everything in sight. At one point I was starting to collect some fat under my chin, but having a fast metabolism I was able to shed it very quickly. I think the stuff was great. It has 2200 calories, all your amino acids, and 40 grams of protein all in one. I'm to the point now that I don't feel like I need it.
Now I just eat whatever I want, but I make sure to get some extra protein in. I'm eating 4-6 eggs whites with 1 or 2 yokes daily. I try to get some red meat too. Nothing beats real food. Powders just don't compare. I'm going to incorporate situps in my routine shortly too. Doing situps when you just start is counterproductive for hardgainers. You just burn all the calories. Once you put on some weight and get the natural hormone levels going you can add them in.
^
What?
I try to follow this guideline when working out -
I do 2 sets of each exercise and do about 3 or 4 exercises per bodypart.
I don't workout more than 3 days a week.
I only do heavy exercises like squats and deadlifts every other week, but not both the same week.
Once every month or so I take a week off.
On the second set of the exercise I go until failure using my other hand to assist the lift.
WEEK I WEEK II
SUNDAY-Biceps,Forearms SUNDAY-Biceps, Forearms
Cheat Curls - 1 set (SAME AS WEEK ONE)
Concentration Curls - 2 sets
Outer Bicep Curls - 2 sets
Hammer Curls - 1 set
Brachioradialis(reverse curl)- 2 sets
Extensors - 2 sets
Flexors - 2 sets
Grippers - failure
TUESDAY-Chest,Triceps TUESDAY-Deltoids, Triceps
Free Weight Press - 2 sets Overhead Press - 2 sets
Dumbell Flys - 2 sets Front Deltoid Raises - 1 set to failure
Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set Side Deltoid raises - 2 sets
Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set
Triceps Ext. Grip3 - 1 set Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set Tricep Ext. Grip3 - 1 set
FRIDAY-Back FRIDAY-Legs
Deadlift - 2 sets Front Squats - 2 sets
Shrugs - 2 sets Calf Raises - 2 sets
Fireman's carry - Failure
Bent Row - 2 sets
Single Arm Row - 1 set
That routine looks horrible. You're training everything except bis, tris and forearms once every two weeks. WTF?
Where are you getting your info from?
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you really should visit the training forum more ::)
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I don't think anyone is more of a hardgainer than me. I started lifting at 108 pounds. Got out of high school at 130. I'm 186 now at 23. I've been bodybuilding consistantly for a year and 2 or 3 months. before i had done bodybuilding but never for more that 4 months at a time. I try to keep my workouts to 45 minutes. Anyone got advice on back training? My chest/back measurement is 41.5 and i wanna get to at least 45.
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That routine looks horrible. You're training everything except bis, tris and forearms once every two weeks. WTF?
Where are you getting your info from?
It's working for me great.
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I don't think anyone is more of a hardgainer than me. I started lifting at 108 pounds. Got out of high schoo at 130. I'm 186 now at 23. I've been bodybuilding consistantly for a year and 2 or 3 months. before i had done bodybuilding but never for more that 4 months. I try to keep my workouts to 45 minutes. Anyone got advice on back training? My chest/back measurement is 41.5 and i wanna get to at least 45.
Do deadlifts every other week. Keep the weight low enough so you can crank out 6-8 reps without a long pause in between. Do 1-3 sets and be damn sure to warm up. And make sure you use proper form. It's very easy to fuck up your back. In my experience, doing them more than every other week makes you worn out all the time. You can't recover properly.
Read this
http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/tech-deadlift.htm
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I don't think anyone is more of a hardgainer than me. I started lifting at 108 pounds. Got out of high school at 130. I'm 186 now at 23. I've been bodybuilding consistantly for a year and 2 or 3 months. before i had done bodybuilding but never for more that 4 months at a time. I try to keep my workouts to 45 minutes. Anyone got advice on back training? My chest/back measurement is 41.5 and i wanna get to at least 45.
chins and rows. once or twice a week.
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deadlifts have helped. currently i do deads and barbell rows one week and chins and cables the other week.
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http://www.weighttrainersunited.com/latshrug.html
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That looks thoroughly useless. Its got such a small ROM
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I think it could work if it's done slow and strict. There really isn't any other way to completely isolate the center of the back. You are already doing the important exercises. They should be working.
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That routine looks horrible. You're training everything except bis, tris and forearms once every two weeks. WTF?
Where are you getting your info from?
"Early on in my association with this young fellow I'm training, he observed that we weren't doing much. You never want to work a muscle more than twice in one week, and when you work it, you work it with intensity. You never rest for more than 15 or 20 seconds between sets. When you work with intensity you'll be surprised how fast you get the pump, which is what you're looking for. Remember, when you're trying to gain, you never work your stomach because the stress attacks and shocks the nerves in your solar plexus and then your hormone levels go down."
http://www.criticalbench.com/Gironda.htm
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Remember, when you're trying to gain, you never work your stomach because the stress attacks and shocks the nerves in your solar plexus and then your hormone levels go down."
I have heard this from time to time, heres my question. I started back into bodybuilding about 6 months ago when i started again i was about 155 i put myself on a bulking diet right away. I am now about 177 still bulking Ive noticed really good gains but naturally after bulking for so long i have developed a little bit of a gut which i never had before. I've asked some people if i should start cardio to get rid of it but they tell me if i start cardio I'm going to lose major size on my arms and other areas as well. So basically my question is when should a bulking diet stop and when you stop do you hit cardio right away and hit abs?
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I wouldn't do any cardio at all. I'm at the same stage you are right now. I think the only thing you need to do is change your eating habits and add crunches once you reach the size you want. Cut out soda pop and fattening foods and keep your protein intake high. It's simple as that.
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once you reach the size you want.
ok well right now i have not reached close to the size i want to end up with, so are you saying to bulk until you have reached that size then lean out. Clearly theres more to it then just bulking for a couple yrs then leaning.
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ok well right now i have not reached close to the size i want to end up with, so are you saying to bulk until you have reached that size then lean out. Clearly theres more to it then just bulking for a couple yrs then leaning.
You can start leaning out now and you will still make gains as long as you keep up with the training and keep your protein intake high. Cut down a little if the gut is getting out of control. I don't think it will be a real problem though. I don't know about you, but I can drop weight quickly if I choose to do so. You shouldn't have a problem shedding the weight. How big are you going for?
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i know i wont have a problem shedding weight at all, its shedding weight and losing chest and arms measurements thats going to be depressing
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i know i wont have a problem shedding weight at all, its shedding weight and losing chest and arms measurments thats going to be depressing
You will actually look bigger. It's all about the illusion of size. As soon as you cut out the soda and fattening foods you will look more vascular and defined giving the illusion of added size.
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You will actually look bigger. It's all about the illusion of size. As soon as you cut out the soda and fattening foods you will look more vascular and defined giving the illusion of added size.
yes, i might lean out for a bit just to change up my diet, then bulk for a couple more months before summer
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Sounds like a plan. Good Luck!
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Sounds like a plan. Good Luck!
Thanks mansonvier, i have a feeling you and I will be discussing alot on this board
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You will actually look bigger. It's all about the illusion of size. As soon as you cut out the soda and fattening foods you will look more vascular and defined giving the illusion of added size.
exactly...thats why the pros look soo big in a contest....in regular day life when they are just wearing jeans and a tshirt they look big but not as big.
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mansonvier where you from?
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The whole "hardgainer" thing is a myth. It's just an excuse to train like a sissy.
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"Early on in my association with this young fellow I'm training, he observed that we weren't doing much. You never want to work a muscle more than twice in one week, and when you work it, you work it with intensity. You never rest for more than 15 or 20 seconds between sets. When you work with intensity you'll be surprised how fast you get the pump, which is what you're looking for. Remember, when you're trying to gain, you never work your stomach because the stress attacks and shocks the nerves in your solar plexus and then your hormone levels go down."
http://www.criticalbench.com/Gironda.htm
sounds like a bunch of bull
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no it isn't a myth. there are many skinny people who try to train like what they see in the magazines and end up with nothing. i know for a fact that being a hardgainer is not a myth because i tried lots and lots of ways to train and never got any kind of results until i started training in a hardgainer style. fewer sets, lots of intensity, lots of rest, lots of food. i see how there are people who have a lot more carbs than protein and very little fat in their diets and they grow. people like jay cutler. i use more protein, then carbs and then fats but almost as much calories from fat as carbs. that's what works for me and i was skinnier than death when i started training.
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I think it could work if it's done slow and strict. There really isn't any other way to completely isolate the center of the back.
Sure there is, Cable rows, wide grip T-bar rows. That shrug thing wont do squat for ya.
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Hardgainers=People that don't eat enough!Or get enough rest also.
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are you saying everyone has the same capacity for gaining muscle and the same metabolism? of course there is such a thing as a hardgainer. there are people who work out hard 6 days a week and do cardio and still grow. that's impossible for a hardgainer. when most people start bodybuilding they try to copy the routines of pros because they dont know any better and end up with no results. a true mesomorph can handle that kinda work but if you're a real ectomorph you can't do that. different people work out differently according to what works for them and a hardgainer needs to work out a certain way to get results but the results will never be as fast as someone with better genetics. Would Mohammed Makkawy, Chris Dickerson or Frank Zane ever have been as big as Markus Ruhl or Ronnie Coleman? Impossible. They have different kinds of bodies.
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With regards to hardgainers and how one should train when he is one. I've been small my whole life, I have a metabolism that is terribly fast and I bust my ass in the gym. My training partners and I do about 16-20 sets per body part, supersetting certain exercises, it's not out of the question to throw in the occational tri-set when we are doing arms. I don't grow. I'm 160 and 6'0, a few months ago I was 150, needless to say, I'm eating everything in sight and my diet is spot on. My problem is that, I don't feel as though I am doing enough if I don't work in the range of 16-20 sets. It's always been this way for me. I have been at this for well over a year straight now and have been off and on for years. My genetics for building muscle suck, I'm not a naturally muscular guy to begin with. I take it, from the sounds of things, I'm doing too much? As I said, I just don't feel like I'm doing enough if if I'm not doing as many sets as I have been. The two guys I train with are naturally well over 200+ pounds so obviously this training style is suited to them. I've gotta get back to work right now but I would appreciate any thoughts or theories. I will get back to that which is said, as soon as I can.
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how many times a day do you eat? how many grams of protein? how many calories. I've gone from 108-187 without steroids.
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I eat between 6-8 meals a day. What is happening is that my training partner and I bought a house together, we split on all the groceries, and prepare all our meals together, we eat the exact same all throughout the day. He weighs 210, I'm 160 lol, his weight is going up, so too has mine, recently. My caloric intake is where it should be, protein, carbs and fats. I'm really curious as to whether or not I could make gains in muscle size and shape through the usage of fewer sets. My 16-20 is never a struggle and I would do even more if I wasn't told that I'm already doing what could be seen as too much.
Back to work I go, I'll check back throughout the day.
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There is definitly a difference in Hardgainers vs. Easygainers.
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your caloric intake is where it should be according to whom?
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your caloric intake is where it should be according to whom?
and for what purpose?
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According to me and others I have spoken to about it.
To gain weight, size.
My issue lies in the fact that I've always been ignorant to low set workouts, perhaps that isn't my issue, either way I'm curious as to how others feel about it.
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so how much DO You eat and what do you eat?
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Sure there is, Cable rows, wide grip T-bar rows. That shrug thing wont do squat for ya.
You are so far of, latshrugs or latshrugs done standing back i a 45 degree angle, are excellent innerbackbuilders. It isolates the upper innerback more than wide (or smal) T-bar rows. I like the T-bar rows aswell, and weighted chins with wide grip for some extra V-taper.
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Hardgainers=People that don't eat enough!Or get enough rest also.
A BF of 12-15% is ideal for putting on mass, but I don't feel comfortable, I'm at 8-10 % year round. This means it's harder for me to put on mass. So hardgaining is besides a genetic nondisposition to bodybuilding and massgaining it's also a kind of dieting style one chooses.
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i never gained significant mass until i started eating 2 grams per bodypound.
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i was only 5'5 & bout 120-125lbs when i got out of high school. i started on weight gain powders and just a little lifting after that. i slowly gained, but i took a while. no kidding, when hmb first cam out, i used that with protein shakes and creatine, and i gained! i'm 190lbs total now, and i'm almost 38. i think you just gain as you age bro! it's all about metabolism too! my appetite seems to be bigger now than when i was just 18! strange, huh?!
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When you're 18-20 you stop growing in length, but you broaden somewhat for a year or five. Late teens and mid-twenties can be a big difference.
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When you're 18-20 you stop growing in length, but you broaden somewhat for a year or five. Late teens and mid-twenties can be a big difference.
definately agree on the broadening, thats y so many men look large etc despite never doin weights etc. you do just fill out.
also i know a lot of strong young people who lack that thick muscle look you can only achieve in ur 20s and 30s. i have never seen a thickly muscled 18 or 19yr old natural lifter
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Thanks for the comments from those of you who posted in response to that which I had written. :)
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edit
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Ok gibberj2 i'll tell you what I think towards hardgainers & we'll see what you think of my way of thinking.Remember however that these are my own personal views after watching so called hardgainers & having a friend or 2 that said they were hardgainers.
Hardgainers in my opinion are ppl. that don't eat enough like I previously stated & don't get enough rest but also do everything wrong when they first start training.Just from your replies to some statements I wouldn't doubt that you yourself made some or if not all of them same mistakes.These are workouts of the pros from the magazines,not enough rest,not enough protein & other variables (supplements).
I'll put it this way.Let's take a friend I had as an example.When we were younger (now 38 btw) he had a classic Zane type of body (he weighed 140 lbs).Always was bitching about gaining etc.This guy was hyper beyond belief!!Always running around to do something or get to a meeting for school or some other "thing".He also partied on the week ends & during these week ends was always trying to score himself some poontang.Now, if he had taken the time used to score some poontang & go to a party & put that time to use eating & resting do you think it would have done his body good?That same guy today is now over a 200 lb person & he agrees w/me telling him when we were younger that he had too many things going on at once & if he had rested & eaten like myself & others told him he would have gained.
Also I believe that anyone can build muscle except for maybe a very few rare individuals of which I have never met.The thing is do they gain muscle the right way?This is in reference that not everybody can have great genes & place muscle how they want it.Some ppl. just have the genetic shape for bb'ing while others no matter how hard they train will never get the look that wins bb'ing contests.Some ppl. can build a great chest yet other places on their body can be abolsutely resistant to muscle.Others can just train & it all falls in place.So many different variables to the great state of bb'ing & so much info & styles of training can confuse even the most well knowledged person in this hobby.
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so you still say there's no hardgainers? that guy who said he couldn't gain size but was always running around didn't gain any because of all the running but there could be a big guy that did a lot of running around and did gain because the other guy was a hardgainer and he wasn't. a hardgainer can still reach the goals of having decent size but it's just harder for him and he must follow the rules or will never gain. what you're saying sounds like anyone can gain if they do the right thing. i agree. but the right thing is different for each individual and some gain easier than others, some much easier. i knew a guy in high school who was curling 135 on the preacher, benching 240 and was totally shreded at 185 5'9" this kid was like 16 years old doing this stuff. He also ran track and played soccer. He hardly ate protein and trained bodyparts 2 or 3 times a week. i said he hardly ate protein... he actually didn't take any supplements at all. today he has 18.5 inch arms (23 yrs old) and trains on and off and only drinks protein sometimes. he was a marine and in iraq until recently. this shows the difference between a hardgainer and someone who's not. when i talk to him on the phone now he's amazed that I weigh 189 because in high school my highest weight was 137 and he met me when i was 108.
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I don't "run around" at all. I work at a desk. I'm the opposite of hyper. I would still classify myself as a hardgainer/ectomorph. It could be that I'm young though(21). Point is, just because you haven't met someone like that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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The whole idea about hardgainer is that some gain much faster and easier than others. THAT'S IT! No denying that.
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eat and train
hardgainer
psh i started at 145
i got over 200 at under 10 percent in 3 yrs
strap on a set and lift
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there is definitely such a thing as hardgainers and easygainers. anyone whose ever known people who work out knows this clear as day. i could list countless examples.
some people gain muscle mass far easier than others, this is a fact.
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For all the so-called Hardgainers out there, I suggest you go back to the archives of MuscleMag International and look up some of Greg Zulak's articles on gaining size. My personal favorite is issue 145, his article on "Alternates".
It has a section on training and diet. Both will be of HUGE help to "hardgainers", no need for "Heavy Duty" or "H.I.T." In fact, Alternates involves training antagonistic body parts, with a rest period of 1-2 minutes between sets (i.e. chest and back, biceps and triceps, quads and hamstrings). I don't go to failure; to me, it's not necessary.
When it comes to calories, the basis is simple: it's all about gradually ingesting more calories in order to gain size. Remember John Parillo, the guy who had his clients consuming up to 10,000 calories per day.
Many critics, including Masters National champion, Jeff Everson and Ms. International, Tonya Knight, blasted Parillo for his dietary recommendations. But, it got many a "hardgainer" to pack on the pounds and achieve size and mass they never thought possible.
Go for six meals a day: Eat three of them; drink three of them. And, gradually bump up the calories. If 4000 calories don't get it done, go up to 4500; if that fails; go to 5000.
10 years ago, I had to go as high as 6500 calories per day to help me break the 200-lb. barrier, starting at 189 lbs that particular semester in college. At one point, I thought I couldn't do it, without taking anabolics, because I come from a family of skinny people.
The good thing about being an ectomorph, especially if you're young, is that you can ingest the calorie-dense foods needed for mass (whole eggs, beef, whole milk, etc.). Add three servings of a quality weight-gainer to the equation and you're in business. When I was doing the 6500-calories-per-day thing, half of those calories came from weight gainer (Mega Mass 2000, at that time).
If you're pressed for time, you may find yourself drinking more calories than you eat. I was in college 10 years ago, when I was on this diet, consuming a dozen eggs per day. Because of time constraints, I ended up making shakes from my eggs, blending them with milk and protein powder.
Above all, you have to be patient. As Zulak says, if you put on 30 lbs. in six months to a year, half of that might be fat. But, you'll be bigger and stronger, overall, and more filled out. Nobody puts on pure muscle all of the time. That doesn't mean turn yourself into a suckling pig, but don't be afraid of a little bodyfat.
Remember, if bodybuilders (even those who use anabolics) put on pure muscle all the time, there'd be no need for them to be in "precontest" mode.
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there is definitely such a thing as hardgainers and easygainers. anyone whose ever known people who work out knows this clear as day. i could list countless examples.
some people gain muscle mass far easier than others, this is a fact.
A fact is something that can be proven. You can't prove that statement so it's not a fact.
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what you're saying proves the FACT that you must be retarded. everyone knows that some people gain muscle easier than others, are bigger than others, and naturally stronger than others. you saying that what i'm saying is not a fact is saying that the complete opposite could be true. If you're right why don't we just say that everyone has the same level of testosterone, the same frame and the same metabolism.
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I wouldn't do any cardio at all. I'm at the same stage you are right now. I think the only thing you need to do is change your eating habits and add crunches once you reach the size you want. Cut out soda pop and fattening foods and keep your protein intake high. It's simple as that.
Cardio builds a healthy heart. Cardio burns calories/fat. Unless someone is competing and getting paid to just build muscle, why in the world would you advocate not doing something that is so benificial for the body?
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running or bike or whatever isn't the only cardio there is. if you're not an athlete who has to run or whatever you're better off circuit training. it's not catabolic like "cardio"
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Cardio builds a healthy heart. Cardio burns calories/fat. Unless someone is competing and getting paid to just build muscle, why in the world would you advocate not doing something that is so benificial for the body?
If you have trouble putting on weight, and your goal is to build muscle - don't do cardio.
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cardio is over-rated. a person who lifts weights has above average cardio compared to the non exercise population. if you bodybuild to look good and you're not an athlete you don't need to do cardio. most people play sports once in a while anyway so what's all this running like a hampster crap?
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Yep.
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where you from mansonvier?
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Everything exists on a bell curve, everything! whether it be intelligence, artistic ability, height, weight, skin color, ability to build muscle, even genital size.
Some people on the left side of the curve will have less of an attribute, most in the middle will an average amount of a particular attribute, and some on the right will have a lot more of a particular attribute.
Its obvious that some people no matter what they do will not grow very large muscles even with drugs (that would be like trying to turn a poddle into a pitbull). These people are rare.
Most people can build an average well built body, one that turns the heads of most people (except for the genetically gifted and drug fiends), especially if they pay attention to balance and leaness.
Some people build muscle so rapidly without drugs its scarey, typically these people are well built even before training. They can get big from looking at weights, much to the chagrin of people busting their butts in the gym. These people are a rarity.
So most people are not hardgainers. What most people try to do that slows down their gains is train like a drug user or a genetically gifted person, as a result little or no progress in made and the person then assumes that he/she is a hard gainer.
Building muscle is simple and easy once you understand the principles, it really is easy. If you are not seeing progress in development, strength, definition, whatever your goal, month to month you are not doing the right thing.
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Everything exists on a bell curve, everything! whether it be intelligence, artistic ability, height, weight, skin color, ability to build muscle, even genital size.
Some people on the left side of the curve will have less of an attribute, most in the middle will an average amount of a particular attribute, and some on the right will have a lot more of a particular attribute.
Its obvious that some people no matter what they do will not grow very large muscles even with drugs (that would be like trying to turn a poddle into a pitbull). These people are rare.
Most people can build an average well built body, one that turns the heads of most people (except for the genetically gifted and drug fiends), especially if they pay attention to balance and leaness.
Some people build muscle so rapidly without drugs its scarey, typically these people are well built even before training. They can get big from looking at weights, much to the chagrin of people busting their butts in the gym. These people are a rarity.
So most people are not hardgainers. What most people try to do that slows down their gains is train like a drug user or a genetically gifted person, as a result little or no progress in made and the person then assumes that he/she is a hard gainer.
Building muscle is simple and easy once you understand the principles, it really is easy. If you are not seeing progress in development, strength, definition, whatever your goal, month to month you are not doing the right thing.
True!!
And for too many "hardgainers", that right thing is ingesting enough calories. Again, as Zulak stated in the aforementioned MuscleMag International issue (#145), the difference between gaining and not gaining can be as little as one piece of chicken a day.
If you need 4500 calories a day but only consume 4200, you will not grow. The "hardgainer's" best friend should be a blender, as he should be whipping up shakes on a regular basis, especially if his funds are limited. In my case, I took Mega Mass 2000 AND made shakes from eggs, milk, and cheap milk-and-egg protein powder.
Of course, there are drawbacks. Most notably, you'd better be within striking distance of a restroom throughout the day, as processing this much food will take a toll on your tummy.
But, once the pounds of muscle arrive and the weight, with which you once struggled, becomes lighter, you'll find that it's all worth it.
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this thread is really stupid. there IS such a thing as a hardgainer. they can still gain but it is harder for them. if you only needed 1 gram of protein per body pound to build muscle then you're not a hardgainer and you're lucky. if you need 4500 calories to grow then you are a hardgainer even if when you get those calories you do grow. why? because it's HARD to eat 4500 calories. it's hard to have to rest more than others. so what is a hardgainer? when you were in high school and lifted weights and didn't know a damned thing about what you were doing but you grew and saw another kid who was like 110 pounds try the same thing and nothing happened for him... that's a hardgainer. the fact that he has to train differently and eat a lot more than you is what makes him a hardgainer. people who say there is no such thing as a hardgainer are saying there's no such thing as genetics which is stupid. maybe they're genetically mentally retarded.
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I agree Gibber, there is such a thing as hardgainers and easygainers. I am luckily a easygainer and have some friends that have tried everything twice and can't gain 5 pounds.
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"hard" is only what you compare it to.
It really doesn't matter. It always come down to you versus you.
What benefit do you get by going around calling yourself a hardgainer?
Sympathy?
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True!!
And for too many "hardgainers", that right thing is ingesting enough calories. Again, as Zulak stated in the aforementioned MuscleMag International issue (#145), the difference between gaining and not gaining can be as little as one piece of chicken a day.
If you need 4500 calories a day but only consume 4200, you will not grow. The "hardgainer's" best friend should be a blender, as he should be whipping up shakes on a regular basis, especially if his funds are limited. In my case, I took Mega Mass 2000 AND made shakes from eggs, milk, and cheap milk-and-egg protein powder.
Of course, there are drawbacks. Most notably, you'd better be within striking distance of a restroom throughout the day, as processing this much food will take a toll on your tummy.
But, once the pounds of muscle arrive and the weight, with which you once struggled, becomes lighter, you'll find that it's all worth it.
I agree a lot of people who find it hard to gain muscle mass don't eat enough food, couple this with the fact that these people usually in their teens and early 20's are very active and the possibility of gaining weight drops.
Another factor that comes in to play is growth from childhood to adulthood, teens and people in their early 20's will usually find it harder than adults to gain muscle because their metabolism is so lifted; in a few years if you keep going weight gain becomes easier.
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this thread is really stupid. there IS such a thing as a hardgainer. they can still gain but it is harder for them. if you only needed 1 gram of protein per body pound to build muscle then you're not a hardgainer and you're lucky. if you need 4500 calories to grow then you are a hardgainer even if when you get those calories you do grow. why? because it's HARD to eat 4500 calories. it's hard to have to rest more than others. so what is a hardgainer? when you were in high school and lifted weights and didn't know a damned thing about what you were doing but you grew and saw another kid who was like 110 pounds try the same thing and nothing happened for him... that's a hardgainer. the fact that he has to train differently and eat a lot more than you is what makes him a hardgainer. people who say there is no such thing as a hardgainer are saying there's no such thing as genetics which is stupid. maybe they're genetically mentally retarded.
I think that most people will agree that their are hardgainers, there would have to be according to the bell curve rule. But these people are rare, how many people do you know who consume 4500 calories a day and only weight 110lbs?
All healthy trainees of average genetics will gain on such a diet (of course taking into account proper rest, training, moderate to low stress levels,etc.)
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"hard" is only what you compare it to.
It really doesn't matter. It always come down to you versus you.
What benefit do you get by going around calling yourself a hardgainer?
Sympathy?
The term can be self fullfilling. I have seen some people cut back their training to extreme points because they did'nt think that they could recover from more work.
Of course you have to know yourself, and if you know that you don't build muscle rapidly with traditional methods, your should seek out other less traditional methods to gain.
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this thread is really stupid. there IS such a thing as a hardgainer. they can still gain but it is harder for them. if you only needed 1 gram of protein per body pound to build muscle then you're not a hardgainer and you're lucky. if you need 4500 calories to grow then you are a hardgainer even if when you get those calories you do grow. why? because it's HARD to eat 4500 calories. it's hard to have to rest more than others. so what is a hardgainer? when you were in high school and lifted weights and didn't know a damned thing about what you were doing but you grew and saw another kid who was like 110 pounds try the same thing and nothing happened for him... that's a hardgainer. the fact that he has to train differently and eat a lot more than you is what makes him a hardgainer. people who say there is no such thing as a hardgainer are saying there's no such thing as genetics which is stupid. maybe they're genetically mentally retarded.
It's not a question of no such thing as genetics it's a question of the clearly obvious fact that nobody has any idea how much variation would exist in a bell curve of bodybuilders who trained ate rested and juiced/or didn't juice in identical measure.
I estimate of the bodybuilders who have the finances the desire the knowledge and the guts to really juice up, of the ones who survive without career ending complications or health scares, that have the right mental attitude and nutrition/training smarts who also put the work in elsewhere. I'd guess a reasonable percentage make it to the pro ranks. Most amatuer guys are not prepared to take the required levels of drugs the mere fact they're competing in a show where a pro card is up 4 grabs doesn't mean they're doing whatever it takes. What you read in the magazines about genetics is just hype!
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It's not a question of no such thing as genetics it's a question of the clearly obvious fact that nobody has any idea how much variation would exist in a bell curve of bodybuilders who trained ate rested and juiced/or didn't juice in identical measure.
I estimate of the bodybuilders who have the finances the desire the knowledge and the guts to really juice up, of the ones who survive without career ending complications or health scares, that have the right mental attitude and nutrition/training smarts who also put the work in elsewhere. I'd guess a reasonable percentage make it to the pro ranks. Most amatuer guys are not prepared to take the required levels of drugs the mere fact they're competing in a show where a pro card is up 4 grabs doesn't mean they're doing whatever it takes. What you read in the magazines about genetics is just hype!
Awesome point. Definitely at the highest levels of the sport genetics are not as important, especially nowadays when asthetics has taken a back seat to raw size.
This is my list of what I think it would take to become a pro level bodybuilder nowadays, anyone can add to it if they feel fit (numbered in no particular order). Also these factors will differ from one bodybuilder to another
1) financial resources to afford immense amounts of food
2) financial resources to afford high to immense amounts of growth promoting and cutting drugs
3) the ability to assimilate large amounts of calories (can be increased with drugs)
4) the ability to tolerate large amounts of drugs for years without extreme side effects
5) the ability to train at a moderate to high intensity levels without getting hurt
6) the mental capicity to focus for years on end, to withstand monotenous meals. training, whatever..
7) the genetic ability to have decent muscular proportions
8) the right bone structure: wide shoulders, smallish waist (in comparrison, even though this is'nt so apparent today)
9) The ability to attain single digit levels of body fat while retaining muscle (drugs help a lot here)
10) The ability to subordinate other peoples needs over years
I'm sure their are many more
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this thread is really stupid. there IS such a thing as a hardgainer. they can still gain but it is harder for them. if you only needed 1 gram of protein per body pound to build muscle then you're not a hardgainer and you're lucky. if you need 4500 calories to grow then you are a hardgainer even if when you get those calories you do grow. why? because it's HARD to eat 4500 calories. it's hard to have to rest more than others. so what is a hardgainer? when you were in high school and lifted weights and didn't know a damned thing about what you were doing but you grew and saw another kid who was like 110 pounds try the same thing and nothing happened for him... that's a hardgainer. the fact that he has to train differently and eat a lot more than you is what makes him a hardgainer. people who say there is no such thing as a hardgainer are saying there's no such thing as genetics which is stupid. maybe they're genetically mentally retarded.
Hold on a minute!
Nobody is discounting genetics at all. What separates the wheat from the chaff, in terms of building mass, is the successful don't use the "hardgainer" tag as a crutch or an excuse as to why they aren't growing.
The 110-lb kid doing the same thing as his buddy, yet not succeeding, is not necessarily an example of a hardgainer. It's an example of someone not doing what he needs to do to grow. If 4500 calories a day ain't working, why on Earth would you keep eating the same amount of food? That's the point: INCREASE THE CALORIES, until that scale starts moving and them weights get lighter. Consume 5000, 5500, 6000......whatever it takes (caloric-speaking) to get the job done.
When you go that high, most likely, you have to consume 50% of those calories in liquid form (MRP/Weight-gainers). But get the nutrients in the right quantity and quality in the body and it will grow.
Arnold Schwarzenegger said it best: Champions are the ones who find what WORKS BEST FOR THEM. Case in point: When he first came to America, The Oak tried making preacher curls the foundation of his biceps routine to improve his arms but got little results. He did that because he trained at Vince Gironda's gym, where Larry Scott trained and used preacher curls to build his legendary guns.
Did that mean that Schwarzenegger was a "hardgainer", when it comes to arm development? Hardly!! He simply understood that he wasn't Larry Scott. Preachers did wonders for Scott but little for Schwarzenegger. So, Arnold didn't blindly keep doing something that wasn't working. He kept pressing forward, until he found something that did.
And, that's the point.
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to be the best you have to do whatever it takes which means drugs. this is a natural board and a natural will never be the "best". you do have to find what works for you personally but let's take two examples.
-Trainee A needs 3000 calories to grow and trainee B needs 3600.
-Trainee A can train for long sessions without overtraining. Trainee B overtrains easily and needs to limit his physical activity outside the gym to make better gains.
-Trainee A has higher testosterone and slower metabolism. Trainee B has lower testosterone and a very fast metabolism.
Trainee B is a hardgainer. Hardgainer means that it's harder for you than it is for others.
If a Hardgainer and an easy gainer trained with extreme dedication, diet and supplementation the easygainer would win every time.
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Manfred before
Not an unusual physique especially for a young man who seems to have an interest in boxing
(http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~prajlich/manfred/manfred8.jpg)
Manfred after in the 90's B4 synthol plus strongmen can't afford to compramise strength with synthol anyway
(http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/~prajlich/manfred/iron/mss3.jpg)
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to be the best you have to do whatever it takes which means drugs. this is a natural board and a natural will never be the "best". you do have to find what works for you personally but let's take two examples.
-Trainee A needs 3000 calories to grow and trainee B needs 3600.
-Trainee A can train for long sessions without overtraining. Trainee B overtrains easily and needs to limit his physical activity outside the gym to make better gains.
-Trainee A has higher testosterone and slower metabolism. Trainee B has lower testosterone and a very fast metabolism.
Trainee B is a hardgainer. Hardgainer means that it's harder for you than it is for others.
If a Hardgainer and an easy gainer trained with extreme dedication, diet and supplementation the easygainer would win every time.
As I stated in my last post, you scenario merely shows that Trainee B CAN NOT do exactly what Trainee A does, if he wants to reach his goals.
Different does not automatically mean that A is more gifted than B (or vice versa). "A" can grow eating chicken breasts, egg whites, skim milk and tuna (packed in water). "B" probably can't grow as well eating like that; however, he CAN GROW as well (perhaps better) eating beef, whole eggs, whole milk, and tuna (packed in oil). How much more effort would "B" put into eating the foods he needs, as opposed to what "A" does? Virtually NONE!! A can of tuna in water is 250 calories; tuna in oil is about 400. Two cups of skim milk yields 160 calories and 16 grams of protein; the same amount of whole milk gives 300 calories and 16 grams of protein. "B" simply compensates for his faster metabolism by eating more calorie-dense food.
As for training, it doesn't matter how long/hard you train. If you don't recover, you don't grow, period. "B" could maximize his recovery ability by training no longer than an hour and not training to failure. If he recovers quickly from that style of training, he will grow.
It appears you equate "easygainer" primarily with someone who doesn't have to eat a lot and can train for long periods of time. But, if you look at a lot of bodybuilders who competed, that ain't always the case.
Would you consider former ASC Champion Mike Francois a "hardgainer"? Well, he once did. Francois was once a 185-lb lightheavyweight competitor, struggling to grow. He later hooked up with trainer Greg Greenzalis, a student of John Parillo. Greenzalis put Francois on a diet, bumping his caloric intake as high as 10,000 calories per day. In about two years, Francois became a 230-lb (competitive bodyweight) superheavyweight. He would later go one to win the NPC Nationals and four pro IFBB shows, including Night of Champions and, of course, the ASC title.
Francois has repeatedly stated that had he not increased his calories, he would not have achieved his physique goals.
As for your "easygainer" winning every time take, that really ain't the case. Frank Zane won the Mr. Olympia three-time, beating more "gifted" guys like Mike Mentzer and Robby Robinson and Tom Platz, in the process.
Furthermore, genetic potential isn't always on the surface. Case #1: Arnold Schwarzenegger. Many think he was genetically gifted. But, the Oak states clearly that when he started training, he weighed 150 lbs, at 6'1". That don't exactly sound like a freak in the making to me.
Case #2: Lou Ferrigno. Did you see the pics of him as a teen, with his father in Pumping Iron? He looked like a twig. Matty Ferrigno stated that his son was so small, he couldn't even make the football team. Who'd ever predicted that Lou would become a 6'5", 275-lb monster in the 70s......or go on to become an even BIGGER 315-lb. behemoth in the 90s?
Throw in the aforementioned Mike Francois and my point is clear. And as Greg Zulak states in many of his articles (including those interviewing Francois), once bodybuilders achieve a certain amount of size, they can maintain it (and, in many cases, build more size) with fewer calories. Francois, after turning pro, dropped his calories to 5000 per day. Yet, he still made progress. He stated that he didn't need as much food to grow as he once did, as his metabolism had become more efficient.
I've experienced that firsthand. I don't need to eat 6500 calories per day anymore to keep my bodyweight around 230 lbs (or to get it bigger). Ten years ago, that wasn't the case. Had I not jacked up the food intake to that level, it would have taken me FAR LONGER to reach my goal, if I reached it at all. It may have taken a year (or longer) to put on those 21 lbs. Instead, it took three months (without anabolics, I might add).
It is indeed "hard" to make gains, if you continue doing something that doesn't work for you, simply because you've seen it work for someone else. As Zulak also stated in one of his articles on Mike Francois, "One type of training and one type of diet CANNOT and WILL NOT produce a championship body.
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i think you may have a learning disability and that definately deserves quotation marks more than the word hard-gainer.
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i think you may have a learning disability and that definately deserves quotation marks more than the word hard-gainer.
Again, how much harder is it to drink whole milk, instead of skim milk? How much harder is it to eat beef, instead of chicken? How much harder it is to eat whole eggs, instead of egg whites?
The difference between gaining mass and not gaining mass can be just that small.
You seem determined to make excuses for pitiful progress. I used to think I was a hardgainer but I don't anymore. The reason for this is incorporating the very advice you've seen from my previous posts.
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Again, how much harder is it to drink whole milk, instead of skim milk? How much harder is it to eat beef, instead of chicken? How much harder it is to eat whole eggs, instead of egg whites?
The difference between gaining mass and not gaining mass can be just that small.
You seem determined to make excuses for pitiful progress. I used to think I was a hardgainer but I don't anymore. The reason for this is incorporating the very advice you've seen from my previous posts.
Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..
I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.
Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.
If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.
Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.
If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.
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Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..
I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.
Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.
If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.
Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.
If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.
John Parillo was among the folks, who emphasized diet. He felt that many bodybuilders weren't overtrained but merely underfed. He maintained that if you stuff a guy with the proper quality and QUANTITY of calories and put him to work in the gym, he'd swell up to massive proportions.
Too many people believe that there's only ONE way to train and diet, which explains why they so easily attach the hardgainer tag to themselves. If they don't grow via that one style, then "Screw it! I guess I'm not genetically gifted, like my friend. I'm a hardgainer. Woe is me!!".
I once had that mentality. It was only by learning and applying the advice I've posted that things change. I've met every physique goal I've set to date. And, I don't believe I'm close to exhausting my genetic potential.
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I agree with Borracho, ur workout is pointless. You might as well sit at home and play video games.
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Its not that hard at all, but a lot of new trainees focus on the things that count less in the whole equation such as, isolation exericese, nutritional supplements, intensifying techniques, etc..
I'll say it again if a beginner is not progressing in new mass he/she is doing something wrong or he or she is sick.
Typically most skinny beginner under eat, and they have to get used to consuming more calories.
If gains are still hard to come by once calories are shifted up by a significant amount (4000-6000 cal range) then other factors have to be looked at such as training and rest.
Training wise if I found it hard to put on new muscle I would follow a program like the 20 rep squat program or something similiar.
If the average so called hard gainer trained with weights 2-3 times a week on a full body or a split program, limited their total sets per session to 10-20 (depending on intensity), and progressively added weight to their compound exercises they would gain weight fairly rapidly.
As far as building mass is concerned, one thing we learned as kids holds true today: Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
It sets the tempo for making sure your diet is straight. Most people think breakfast is coffee, some processed cereal that's 95% sugar, donuts. That's a sure-fire recipe for disaster. It's really bad in college, because kids are rushing to class and don't prepare to eat right.
When I was in college a decade ago, I found myself falling into that same trap, either eating junk for breakfast or not eating at all. The food in the cafeteria wasn't all that great at breakfast (which is part of the reason I was skipping that meal). So, I fixed that, via my "Poor Man's MET-Rx" shake I mentioned earlier. A half-dozen eggs, 16 oz. milk, and one scoop of milk-and-egg protein powder, all blended up together. That rendered at least 65 grams of protein.
Now, I have more time and can actually eat a solid meal. But, the key is still to get that FIRST good meal in your system. The rest seem to fall into place after that.
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As far as building mass is concerned, one thing we learned as kids holds true today: Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
It sets the tempo for making sure your diet is straight. Most people think breakfast is coffee, some processed cereal that's 95% sugar, donuts. That's a sure-fire recipe for disaster. It's really bad in college, because kids are rushing to class and don't prepare to eat right.
When I was in colleged a decade ago, I found myself falling into that same trap, either eating junk for breakfast or not eating at all. The food in the cafeteria wasn't all that great at breakfast (which is part of the reason I was skipping that meal). So, I fixed that, via my "Poor Man's MET-Rx" shake I mentioned earlier. A half-dozen eggs, 16 oz. milk, and one scoop of milk-and-egg protein powder, all blended up together. That rendered at least 65 grams of protein.
Now, I have more time and can actually eat a solid meal. But, the key is still to get that FIRST good meal in your system. The rest seem to fall into place after that.
I agree, breakfast is very important. I think that most new trainees, the ones that are really excited about getting bigger, shoot themselves in the foot so to speak. They tend to go to the gym too much (most people make best gains weight training 3 times a week max), they tend to under sleep, they tend to be wowed by nutritional supplements, they tend to not focus on getting stronger on compound exercises, they use to much isolation exercises, and their form really sucks.
Add all that up and is it any suprise that most people don't gain well. Unfortunately the popular magazines are filled with information which is worse that useless, in in some cases outright hazadous to health, fitness, and muscular development. Who really cares about Greg Valentino's feces, or about some new exotic supplement that increase testosterone in male butterflies, or how big some fitness chicks new tits are? what does this have to do with building a stronger body?
So people who read and follow the advice in the magazines are left with information that will either cause them to fail, make progress at a snails pace, or encourage them to take drugs to grow on the ridiculous advice.
Like I said getting bigger muscles is simple, it could be summed up in the following
1) apply sufficient intensity of stress to a muscle group to stimulate muscle growth; leaving sufficient recovery reserves left to allow for recovery and more importantly supercompensation (i.e. muscle growth and strength gains)
2) Eat enough calories along with sufficient protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water to support full muscle recovery and growth
3) Allow enough time (days) to go by for a muscle that has been worked as well as all the other systems (particularly the nervous system) of the body to recovery and supercompensate. Also means get sufficient sleep and relaxation.
4) When supercompensation has been completed (gains in strength typically come before gains in new muscle) then train the muscle again with a slightly greater intensity (ex. increase resistance, or reps, or make careful use of intensity enhancers)
Another important factor that most motivated trainees ignore
As a trainee becomes stronger his ability to place greater stress on his body with exercise becomes greater. Even though a trainee will also build recovery has he builds strength (and muscle), eventually his strength will overtake his recovery ability. Eventually if a trainee continues using the exact same amount of sets, exercises, off days that produced gains earlier; he will eventually hit a plateau in strength and muscle size because the workout will have become to stressful (owing to the increase in strength).
The remedy:
Reduce the amount of work done, this can be done by reducing the amount of sets performed in the workout. The best way is to take additional rest hours or days before training not only the muscle group again but the body. For example if you are training every other day and reach a plateau for a few week, then schedule in an extra day or two between workouts to recover, and fight the desire to go into the gym and you will start progressing again. (most people do the exact opposite when they plateau, training more, adding more sets and exercises, and usually end up injured, tired, overtrained= no gains)
I figure most people will ignore this advice, not because it doesn't make sense but because most people are motivated to train out of emotion. They don't want to risk the chance, despite the logic, that they will shrink. Because of this they probably will not reach their goal, if they do it will take them years when it could have taken months.
Lawrence
(understand that genetics have a profound effect on what you can develop, but the application of the right technology and knowledge allow for greater strides.
Most people get wrapped up in the nonsense, and I really blame the magazines for this.
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Good post.
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To any true hard gainers out there I strongly recommend the BRAWN series of books. Basically it says
that more is less.
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To any true hard gainers out there I strongly recommend the BRAWN series of books. Basically it says
that more is less.
Agreed, All the Brawn books are awesome.
A few more books
HIT the mike mentzer way Mike mentzer
Dinosaur training
The Ripped series by Clarence Bass
any book or article by Arthur Jones
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I would also add anything by charles poliquin.
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I would also add anything by charles poliquin.
I haven't read much of Poliquins work; what has your personal and others (that you know) success been with his methods?
Lean muscle mass gained?
Strength gains?
I'm curious, and I like to expand my knowledge and understanding.
Lawrence
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cardio is over-rated. a person who lifts weights has above average cardio compared to the non exercise population. if you bodybuild to look good and you're not an athlete you don't need to do cardio. most people play sports once in a while anyway so what's all this running like a hampster crap?
If you bodybuild and not an athlete...
Meaning there are bodybuilders who are athletes! HAHA.
And weight training is not cardio, even after a toughs set where your heart is racing. Cardiovascular exercise is not just about getting your heart running faster for a minute after a tough set. It is about training your utilizing the Krebs cycle.
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If you bodybuild and not an athlete...
Meaning there are bodybuilders who are athletes! HAHA.
And weight training is not cardio, even after a toughs set where your heart is racing. Cardiovascular exercise is not just about getting your heart running faster for a minute after a tough set. It is about training your utilizing the Krebs cycle.
[/quote
I don't agree (respectfully), you can get a terrific cardiovascular workout from weight training. Specifically if you are training a lot of muscle groups and going from one exercise to the next without or very little rest. For example if you go from a set of squats to a set of leg extensions to a set of leg curls to a set of calf raises, rest a minute and repeat a few times you will get a heck of a cardiovascular workout.
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I haven't read much of Poliquins work; what has your personal and others (that you know) success been with his methods?
Lean muscle mass gained?
Strength gains?
I'm curious, and I like to expand my knowledge and understanding.
Lawrence
Poliquin is a strength coach and most of his stuff is focused on building strength. They have a lot of his articles on
T-nation.
George.
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Poliquin is a strength coach and most of his stuff is focused on building strength. They have a lot of his articles on
T-nation.
George.
Yeah I know that he used to write for Muscle media 2000; and every now and then writes for the popular bodybuilding rags.
Have you had any success with his methods?
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if i was to write a book on my own theories it wud not be a hell of a lot different from brawm
u can prob get it from libraries and everyone shud read it if not for info tips etc but for the fun of it.
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if i was to write a book on my own theories it wud not be a hell of a lot different from brawm
u can prob get it from libraries and everyone shud read it if not for info tips etc but for the fun of it.
Yeah Brawn is a good all around book for the serious trainee. Its written in a moderate style so would appeal to moderate minded people.
The second Brawn is good, but my favorite is the first one, just a good overall read.
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you guys read these books? are they for naturals?
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Yeah I know that he used to write for Muscle media 2000; and every now and then writes for the popular bodybuilding rags.
Have you had any success with his methods?
He introduced me to 5x5 and a few other techniques that help me put on strength - although I would say some
of his methods are a bit advanced and not for the beginner. When I do read his workouts he does not advise on
too much volume which is where most muscle rags fall down - obviously though if you buy the supplements they
advertise you "will" get the results ;D.
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you guys read these books? are they for naturals?
Brawn should be your first stop as a natural.
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i only bought it a few months ago but did apply the principle of cycling and it worls so well. my training is bascially 6 exercises apliut over a wee. also what brawn advocates
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Why would most hard gainers be on a natural forum? Seems to me hard gainers will be the most likely ones to consider the dark side. I do not claim to know the percentage of hard gainers who juice or juicers who are hard gainers but your deductive powers are a sight to behold.
Can you draw a generic Venn diagram to do the population balance? Go ahead use google which is now the last court of redress for the less educated.
Not really, some people refuse to cross the line no matter what. I would easy gainers tend to stray more to the dark side of the force. Probably because they get so much attention from others with a little effort, and start to get a swollen head, and think that they have the ability to compete successfully.
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Polloquin sounds as if he knows his stuff. I'd also go with some old-school articles from Greg Zulak. They've definitely been of benefit to me.
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I agree, breakfast is very important. I think that most new trainees, the ones that are really excited about getting bigger, shoot themselves in the foot so to speak. They tend to go to the gym too much (most people make best gains weight training 3 times a week max), they tend to under sleep, they tend to be wowed by nutritional supplements, they tend to not focus on getting stronger on compound exercises, they use to much isolation exercises, and their form really sucks.
Add all that up and is it any suprise that most people don't gain well. Unfortunately the popular magazines are filled with information which is worse that useless, in in some cases outright hazadous to health, fitness, and muscular development. Who really cares about Greg Valentino's feces, or about some new exotic supplement that increase testosterone in male butterflies, or how big some fitness chicks new tits are? what does this have to do with building a stronger body?
So people who read and follow the advice in the magazines are left with information that will either cause them to fail, make progress at a snails pace, or encourage them to take drugs to grow on the ridiculous advice.
Like I said getting bigger muscles is simple, it could be summed up in the following
1) apply sufficient intensity of stress to a muscle group to stimulate muscle growth; leaving sufficient recovery reserves left to allow for recovery and more importantly supercompensation (i.e. muscle growth and strength gains)
2) Eat enough calories along with sufficient protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water to support full muscle recovery and growth
3) Allow enough time (days) to go by for a muscle that has been worked as well as all the other systems (particularly the nervous system) of the body to recovery and supercompensate. Also means get sufficient sleep and relaxation.
4) When supercompensation has been completed (gains in strength typically come before gains in new muscle) then train the muscle again with a slightly greater intensity (ex. increase resistance, or reps, or make careful use of intensity enhancers)
Another important factor that most motivated trainees ignore
As a trainee becomes stronger his ability to place greater stress on his body with exercise becomes greater. Even though a trainee will also build recovery has he builds strength (and muscle), eventually his strength will overtake his recovery ability. Eventually if a trainee continues using the exact same amount of sets, exercises, off days that produced gains earlier; he will eventually hit a plateau in strength and muscle size because the workout will have become to stressful (owing to the increase in strength).
The remedy:
Reduce the amount of work done, this can be done by reducing the amount of sets performed in the workout. The best way is to take additional rest hours or days before training not only the muscle group again but the body. For example if you are training every other day and reach a plateau for a few week, then schedule in an extra day or two between workouts to recover, and fight the desire to go into the gym and you will start progressing again. (most people do the exact opposite when they plateau, training more, adding more sets and exercises, and usually end up injured, tired, overtrained= no gains)
I figure most people will ignore this advice, not because it doesn't make sense but because most people are motivated to train out of emotion. They don't want to risk the chance, despite the logic, that they will shrink. Because of this they probably will not reach their goal, if they do it will take them years when it could have taken months.
AMEN!!!
This reminds me of something that Jeff Everson mentioned in Muscle & Fitness, back in the 80s. "If you're having trouble growing, despite stuffing yourself, then it's time you learned the real secret to gaining weight: Liquid Nutrition."
This falls right in line with what Greg Zulak says in his articles, "It's much easier to drink 1000 calories and 100 grams of protein, than it is to eat it."
I follow this advice to this day. The only difference between what I do now and what I did when I was younger is that I've replaced the weight gainers with MRPs, simply because I don't need as many calories to grow as I did 10-15 years ago.
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AMEN!!!
This reminds me of something that Jeff Everson mentioned in Muscle & Fitness, back in the 80s. "If you're having trouble growing, despite stuffing yourself, then it's time you learned the real secret to gaining weight: Liquid Nutrition."
This falls right in line with what Greg Zulak says in his articles, "It's much easier to drink 1000 calories and 100 grams of protein, than it is to eat it."
I follow this advice to this day. The only difference between what I do now and what I did when I was younger is that I've replaced the weight gainers with MRPs, simply because I don't need as many calories to grow as I did 10-15 years ago.
Yeah liquid meals are great for people who have a hard time eating enough. A definite advantage of being a little older is that gains can be made with less calories than when you were older. I used to consume aprox. 7000 cals a day and had to fight to gain mass, now I can easily do it with 4500-5000 cals.
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Yeah liquid meals are great for people who have a hard time eating enough. A definite advantage of being a little older is that gains can be made with less calories than when you were older. I used to consume aprox. 7000 cals a day and had to fight to gain mass, now I can easily do it with 4500-5000 cals.
I certainly don't miss those days of feeling bloated, having ingested 4000 calories, sipping a seemingly bottomless mug of protein drink, knowing that I still had about 2000 calories yet to consume.
But, the weirdest thing was that, no matter how stuffed I was going to bed, my stomach would be growling severly in the morning, as if I hadn't eaten a thing in days.
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I certainly don't miss those days of feeling bloated, having ingested 4000 calories, sipping a seemingly bottomless mug of protein drink, knowing that I still had about 2000 calories yet to consume.
But, the weirdest thing was that, no matter how stuff I was going to bed, my stomach would be growling severly in the morning, as if I hadn't eaten a thing in days.
Yeah I used to drink two servings of Mega mass 2000 a day, a long with copious amounts of chicken, ground meat, potatoes, bread, and what ever else I could shove down. Walking around bloated was not fun.
If I had to do it again, I would'nt have stuffed myself though, force feeding is a losing proposition. I think slow to medium gains over the long haul is the way to go.
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Yeah I used to drink two servings of Mega mass 2000 a day, a long with copious amounts of chicken, ground meat, potatoes, bread, and what ever else I could shove down. Walking around bloated was not fun.
If I had to do it again, I would'nt have stuffed myself though, force feeding is a losing proposition. I think slow to medium gains over the long haul is the way to go.
In a way, I feel that's the way to go as well. But, when I was younger, I don't think that would have worked. The example I gave (regarding what I did ten years ago, gaining 21 lbs in three months) was a BIG boost to me. It made me believe that I could make serious gains in size and mass WITHOUT using anabolics.
Even if half of that weight was fat, that's still 10.5 lbs of lean mass in a three-month span of time. To wait a year (or longer) to gain that kind of mass would have been discouraging, to say the least.
When I first broke 240, I enjoyed the fact that I was the biggest I'd ever been in my life. And, I could still see my abs (somewhat). However, my biceps disappeared. My arms were just two limbs.
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In a way, I feel that's the way to go as well. But, when I was younger, I don't think that would have worked. The example I gave (regarding what I did ten years ago, gaining 21 lbs in three months) was a BIG boost to me. It made me believe that I could make serious gains in size and mass WITHOUT using anabolics.
Even if half of that weight was fat, that's still 10.5 lbs of lean mass in a three-month span of time. To wait a year (or longer) to gain that kind of mass would have been discouraging, to say the least.
When I first broke 240, I enjoyed the fact that I was the biggest I'd ever been in my life. And, I could still see my abs (somewhat). However, my biceps disappeared. My arms were just two limbs.
Yeah I see your point, different mind set back then.
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Yeah I see your point, different mind set back then.
The biggest problem I have now is the temptation to go back to the old ways, when the gains start to stall. If I hit a sticking point, sometimes, I'm just itching to get that bag of Mega Mass or that bucket of N-Large2 and act a fool.
I was using gainers as recently as September of last year. I hit 252 lbs. and benched 405 for the first time EVER. But, my waist took a beating, particularly on the sides. One day, I hope to push that kind of iron again, but with a leaner physique.
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The biggest problem I have now is the temptation to go back to the old ways, when the gains start to stall. If I hit a sticking point, sometimes, I'm just itching to get that bag of Mega Mass or that bucket of N-Large2 and act a fool.
I was using gainers as recently as September of last year. I hit 252 lbs. and benched 405 for the first time EVER. But, my waist took a beating, particularly on the sides. One day, I hope to push that kind of iron again, but with a leaner physique.
Yeah the extra calories definitely helps the strength levels, also helps the low handles. I don't think that this would be a bad way to go for 3-4 months out of the year though. Congrats on the lifting achievement, You did it before you can do it agai a bit leaner.
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Yeah the extra calories definitely helps the strength levels, also helps the low handles. I don't think that this would be a bad way to go for 3-4 months out of the year though. Congrats on the lifting achievement, You did it before you can do it agai a bit leaner.
It also helps with the joints. When I started trimming down, my elbows were KILLING me. I had to eliminate certain triceps exercises, because the pain was getting to be too much. My elbows are fine now, but I've virtually eliminated overhead barbell extensions, and any other exercise where my forearms go upward. Now, I use dips, pushdowns, and an old-school exercise that not a lot of people do, the pullover-and-press.
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I had the same problem with elbow pain from doing overhead tricep extensions. Now I lay on my back and do them, elbow 90degrees to my chest. I extend it straight out. Not sure what that's called.
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I had the same problem with elbow pain from doing overhead tricep extensions. Now I lay on my back and do them, elbow 90degrees to my chest. I extend it straight out. Not sure what that's called.
Aren't those French presses? Those hurt my elbows as well. But, the thing was that, when I was heaiver, doing overhead barbell (and dumbbell) triceps extensions didn't hurt my elbows at all. When my weight started coming down....YYEEEEOOOOOOWWW!!! Serious pain!
I even bought some Glucosamine capsules. But, since dropping those exercises (and well as not doing shoulder presses with 100-105 lb. dumbbells), my elbows feel just fine. In fact, I haven't even cracked open that bottle of pills yet.
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I read in some mag that it's easier on the joints to lift when you're heavy because you have more lubrication on the joints. Probably why.
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It also helps with the joints. When I started trimming down, my elbows were KILLING me. I had to eliminate certain triceps exercises, because the pain was getting to be too much. My elbows are fine now, but I've virtually eliminated overhead barbell extensions, and any other exercise where my forearms go upward. Now, I use dips, pushdowns, and an old-school exercise that not a lot of people do, the pullover-and-press.
I think that the joint pain comes from the reduced fluid volume in the muscles and around the joints, due to the lowered carb intake that is in fashion today. Since carbs hold onto water. I have found that taking creatine helps in this regard, but then again I never go low on the carbs.
Also taking the ephedrine, asprin, caffeine stack tends to dehydrate the body which can lead to joint issues.
The pulloer and press, awesome movement.
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I think that the joint pain comes from the reduced fluid volume in the muscles and around the joints, due to the lowered carb intake that is in fashion today. Since carbs hold onto water. I have found that taking creatine helps in this regard, but then again I never go low on the carbs.
Also taking the ephedrine, asprin, caffeine stack tends to dehydrate the body which can lead to joint issues.
The pulloer and press, awesome movement.
I read about that exercise in an issue of IronMan magazine from the mid 90s. A guy named Johnny McWilliams used it, supposedly getting his arms to 20" inches, drug-free. If I remember correctly, the pics showed he had a huge (albeit smooth) biceps and triceps.
Another exercise I love is the bench dips. The problem is that, without weights in my laps, I can do lots of them which doesn't really help my arms grow. And, piling too many plates in my laps is dangerous; I almost twisted my knee doing it.
So, I've found a way to duplicate the movement safely, using one of three types of machines:
1) The assisted chin/dip-machine, where your hands are on the platform where you rest your feet or knees. Simply sit on the rails (or squat in between them, depending on the type of machine) and push down on the platform.
2) Ab Crunch machine: If you have the kind with the rectangular pads, where you rest your chest on it and lean foward, all you have to do is push it downward, get in position, and start doing the dip motion, the rest of the way down.
3) Hammer Strength Seated Leg Curl machine: Same principle as the Ab Crunch machine.
That's how I've learned to train my triceps, while having mercy on my elbows. As for ephedrine, the last time I used any ephedra/ma huang product extensively was 2002; that was the old Hydroxycut. It worked well; but, I don't care for the heart-jumping-out-of-the-chest feeling ma huang tends to give.
2003 was the last time I used any product with ma huang. That was Nitro-Glycerol. But, I only used it, because it was an RTD with 50 grams of protein that GNC had marked down for $0.50, and I was looking for protein supplements, not fat-burners/thermogenics.
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Yeah I used to drink two servings of Mega mass 2000 a day, a long with copious amounts of chicken, ground meat, potatoes, bread, and what ever else I could shove down. Walking around bloated was not fun.
If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have stuffed myself though, force feeding is a losing proposition. I think slow to medium gains over the long haul is the way to go.
Definitely!
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i've found the reason most natural guys cry hard gainer is because they either don't eat enough to constitute any kind of gains, don't work on on a regular basis and monitor progress, or don't lift like they're there to get big.
I've only taken ONE cycle in my life..and have gained more in the past 6 months OFF the juice than I did when I was on it...granted i liked the recovery and quicker gains, but once everything got lined up like it was supposed to be...i'm benching 425 now without the aid of pharmeceuticals.
i'ts all a state of mind. I'm tired of hearing this word used WAY too much in the gym by people that have used the same amount of weight every time they've shown up or refuse to train accessory muslce groups for the bigger lifts.
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The whole "hardgainer" thing is a myth. It's just an excuse to train like a sissy.
best post in this whole thread right HERE!
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Hardgainers=People that don't eat enough!Or get enough rest also.
You forgot, don't train with true intensity!
thats pritty much the simplest way to put it all in a nut shell.
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You forgot, don't train with true intensity!
thats pritty much the simplest way to put it all in a nut shell.
It's not so much training with intensity, as it is recovering from such. Part of that, of course, is consuming the right quality and quantity of calories.
As I said before, I eat fewer calories now than I did years back. Weight gainers aren't part of my diet and supplement regime anynore. Ten years ago, I lived off them. Back then, I need the extra calories, 5000-6500, to get the job done. I don't need that much to grow anymore.
Again, if you weigh 150 and gain 5-10 lbs. of muscle in a year, you've merely gone from being a twig to a slightly less scrawny twig. That's hardly enough motivation to keep training and buying food and supplements.
If, however, you put on, say, 30-40 lbs. in three or four months, you'll be psyched and want to keep training. Even if half that weight gain is fat, you still have 15-20 lbs. of muscle on your frame. Furthermore, the more gains you make early on, the less likely you are to use anabolics.
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best post in this whole thread right HERE!
Nah, I don't believe that. You were closer about the lack of eating IMO.
I'm a "hard gainer" simply because I'm genetically predispositioned not to store weight. I have to eat a shitload of food to grow. I train like a mad man, yet because of lack of food, I hardly grow at all. That's my reason, anyway. It's not possible for me to train any harder.
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whether you like the word hardgainer or not it is a fact that some grow easier than others. what's "hard" about it? it's harder because you have to eat more and train a certain way when others can train pretty much in any way and eat little and always make more progress. stupid thing to say that it doesn't exist. what if you have naturally low testosterone? can't grow much without that. If there's no such thing then there's no such thing as genetics. why's cutler 60 pounds heavier than troy alves? why did it take kris dim way longer than other bodybuilders to put on size? How stupid is it that everyone here is always saying "wow great genetics" or "horrible genetics" but are still saying there's no such thing as a hardgainer. it's a genetic thing.
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whether you like the word hardgainer or not it is a fact that some grow easier than others. what's "hard" about it? it's harder because you have to eat more and train a certain way when others can train pretty much in any way and eat little and always make more progress. stupid thing to say that it doesn't exist. what if you have naturally low testosterone? can't grow much without that. If there's no such thing then there's no such thing as genetics. why's cutler 60 pounds heavier than troy alves? why did it take kris dim way longer than other bodybuilders to put on size? How stupid is it that everyone here is always saying "wow great genetics" or "horrible genetics" but are still saying there's no such thing as a hardgainer. it's a genetic thing.
The emphasis here is that far too many of the "hardgainer's" woes are self-inflicted.
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STUART MC ROBERT SUMMED IT UP IN HIS BOOK BRAWN
WHERE HE STATED THAT MOST EASY GAINERS CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND THE PLIGHT OF THE HARDGAINER BECAUSE THEY TRAIN AND THEY GROW
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STUART MC ROBERT SUMMED IT UP IN HIS BOOK BRAWN
WHERE HE STATED THAT MOST EASY GAINERS CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND THE PLIGHT OF THE HARDGAINER BECAUSE THEY TRAIN AND THEY GROW
Great point, and IMO most hardgainers don't understand that they need to eat and train differently than the easy gainer to get results.
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MCWAY start out by saying what the woes are. then how they are self inflicted.
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Nothing in life is either "hard" or "easy." The Law of Relativity says that nothing has any value until compared to something else.
People who label themselves hargainers are comparing themselves to people the "wish" they were like. This is not a healthy mental approach.
You only have your own body. It's you against you. That's it.
Wouldn't you go through the process with a lot less frustration by not labeling yourself a hardgainer?
What purpose does that serve?
And, if you insist on calling yourself a hardgainer, you better sure as hell never miss a workout and never skip a meal. If you aren't doing all of the basiscs and are still blaming your lack of success (which iss all relative), then calling yourself a hardgainer is just your excuse and a diversion.
A self-proclaimed hardgainer, in my humble opinion, will not have the mental fortitude to get the job done day in and day out.
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Great point, and IMO most hardgainers don't understand that they need to eat and train differently than the easy gainer to get results.
i agree thats why they should all read brawn that book would put more people on the right path than any of these message boards
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http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1651
Stuart McRobert's visit to the shrink
In a small office on the thirteenth floor of a large office building there sits a very skinny man with tears running down his cheeks and big black bags under his eyes. Then all of a sudden an older man with a big grey beard enters the room and introduces himself as Dr. Psychiatrist.
Dr. P: "What seems to be the problem, Mr Mcrobert?"
Stuie: "I-i-it's m-m-my n-nightmares!!!
Dr. P: "Nightmares? Explain."
Stuie: "W-well, every night I go to sleep exactly 4 hours and 53 minutes after my weight training. I do this to ensure that the one muscle fiber I stimulated has enough time to think about how it is genetically disadvantaged before going to bed. But for the last week or so I have been waking up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night. My heart is racing, my eyes are tearing up and my Barbie pyjamas are soaked!"
Dr. P: "I see, I see. Now what is happening in these nightmares?"
Stuie: "Well, it's very difficult to remember exactly what happened but I remember that I was on my way to the local gym. I was wearing my usual Batman costume so no one at the gym would notice how small my muscles are. After calibrating the genetic potential of my new running shoes. I headed over to the weight room. But when I got there, it was full of people with...with...muscles! Waaaaaahhh!"
Dr. P: "But isn't a gym a place where people build their muscles?"
Stuie: "What are you, some kind of drug user?!!"
Dr. P: "Sorry, go on."
Stuie: "Anyway, all of the guys in the gym were huge. I did what any normal person would do and openly declared all of them drug users. Not one of them payed any attention to me and just kept on working, their muscles getting bigger with each rep! I was too angry at this complete disregard of sound training to begin my workout, so I just stood in a corner thinking about how much good advice I could give these guys if they would just stop training."
Dr. P: "Stuart, why would you give them advice? They are already big and strong."
Stuie: "What are you some kind of a drug user?!!"
Dr. P: "Stuart, calm down. I don't even lift weights."
Stuie: "See how easy it is for you easy gainers!"
Dr. P: "Just finish your damn story!"
Stuie: "Ok! Anyway, I was at this point amazed at the complete lack of sensible training. I even caught several of them doing 2 or more sets of a weight that would crush an army of hard gainers. I had to put a stop to this! I shouted and shouted at them to reduce the weight and increse the complaining but no one payed any attention. Them in the corner of the room a man dressed all in black just pointed at me and said "you go downstairs". I did as he said without even thinking and went down some stairs into the basement and was amazed what I found."
Dr. P: "What was there, Stuie?"
Stuie: "Well, the whole basement was a giant gym just like upstairs, but this time it was full of very skinny, sad men who just sat on benches and sighed. "Why aren't my arms bigger?" one said. Another spoke out "I wish someone could give me that great routine that will take my bench press from 80 to 82lbs". I was so happy that I was finally in a place where REAL trainers worked out. These guys were so well educated that they didn't even risk overtraining BY training. I was so fired up for a workout that I ran to the power rack. I loaded the bar with the standard 2.5lb plates. This would be the week that I hit 50lbs for 8 reps. I psyched myself up but at the same time promised that even if I missed the goal I would still buy myself an ice cream for trying. I bent down to tighten my shoe lace and then when I looked up...the..the"
Dr. P: "What Stuie? You have to let loose your feelings."
Stuie: "Well, (gulp) when I looked back at the squat bar it was now all of a sudden loaded with 2 45lb plates!!! 135lbs of overtraining, failure, and bad genetics. I was so scared that I squeeled like a girl scout that just burnt her brownies. But then after I blinked they were back to just the 2.5lb plates. Chalking this hallucination up to an animal product I had eaten when I was 5, I decided to continue. I placed my motivational cassette player on the floor and my photo radar machine on a bench near by to make sure I didn't exceed a 2/4 rep cadence. I decended for my first rep. Tough, but great work for a hardgainer who is doomed to never become strong. Three reps in I was feeling good but then all of a sudden the plates...the turned into...(gulp) 45 pounders again!"
Dr. P: "Sigh"
Stuie: "The weight was so heavy it felt like there was a herd of elephants having a disco party on my back. I Fell to the ground like a discarded kleenex and actually broke through the floor! I just kept falling down into this abyss until I finally landed in a pit of..of..supplements! There were supplements everywhere! Then from behind me I heard these guys talking. I looked and there was a man who also had muscles buying a can of basic milk and egg protein powder. Of all the nerve! I junged out to try and stop him from further destroying his body but he just tossed me like a frisbee into the air and I just kept going. Then I finally landed in a different gym, equally loaded with muscular strong men. But this time they noticed me immeadiatly. One shouted "Hey! That's Stuie McRobert! Look how fucking small he is! And he writes books on weight training?! Ha ha ha ha ha!". And then all of them were laughing at me, none of them even considering the fact that I could actually be Batman. Then I just fell to the ground crying, and that's when I woke up."
Dr. P: "Ah, I see. Well Stuie, I think I know what the problem is."
Stuie: "Really?!! Oh good! What is it? Train less often? Reduce the poundage? Spout more negative jargon?
Dr. P: "No, none of them will help you."
Stuie: "Then what should I do Doc?"
Dr. P: "Well, you can start by NOT BEING SUCH A FUCKING WHINY LITTLE BITCH!!! Start training like a man, you little rectal wart! Your nothing but a baby looking for excuses not to work hard, eat lots, and work hard some more! Get with the fucking program! Stop hiding behind your genetic imperfections and be glad you've got 2 arms, 2 legs, and some very small balls! My sister is a quadroplegic and she manages to race in the provincial games by training 5 times a week and not letting her limitations limit her achievments! So get off your ass, hoist some big weights, and for christ's sake take off that ridiculous Batman outfit!
Stuie: --- "What are you, some kind of drug user?!!"
Stuart then leaves the office and never returned to that Psychiatrist. The next day Dr. P took up weight training and is now a runner up powerlifting champion in the 55+ age category.
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Nah, I don't believe that. You were closer about the lack of eating IMO.
I'm a "hard gainer" simply because I'm genetically predispositioned not to store weight. I have to eat a shitload of food to grow. I train like a mad man, yet because of lack of food, I hardly grow at all. That's my reason, anyway. It's not possible for me to train any harder.
You just mentioned the solution to your own problem. If you need lots of food to grow, then get them calories by any means you can. Your blender should be your best friend, whirling and churning, making shakes left and right. What you can't eat in solid food, DRINK in liquid food: MRPs, weight-gainer shakes, or old-school protein drinks, using recipes from old muscle magazines.
I've been where you are now. As stated earlier, it once took consuming over 5000 calories (and at times, as many as 6500) to get my bodyweight well over 200 lbs. I was going through those 12 lb. bags of Mega Mass 2000 left and right, as well as making shakes from eggs, milk, and cheap milk-and-egg protein powder.
You know where your problem lies, YOUR DIET!!! Make the changes, consume them calories (eat 'em, drink 'em, whatever), and business will pick up. Use the "Poor Man's MET-Rx" recipe I outlined, if necessary.
BTW, Gibber, LovetheSport's dilemma is a prime example of "self-inflicted" wounds.
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You just mentioned the solution to your own problem. If you need lots of food to grow, then get them calories by any means you can. Your blender should be your best friend, whirling and churning, making shakes left and right. What you can't eat in solid food, DRINK in liquid food: MRPs, weight-gainer shakes, or old-school protein drinks, using recipes from old muscle magazines.
I've been where you are now. As stated earlier, it once took consuming over 5000 calories (and at times, as many as 6500) to get my bodyweight well over 200 lbs. I was going through those 12 lb. bags of Mega Mass 2000 left and right, as well as making shakes from eggs, milk, and cheap milk-and-egg protein powder.
You know where your problem lies, YOUR DIET!!! Make the changes, consume them calories (eat 'em, drink 'em, whatever), and business will pick up. Use the "Poor Man's MET-Rx" recipe I outlined, if necessary.
BTW, Gibber, LovetheSport's dilemma is a prime example of "self-inflicted" wounds.
That is exactly what I am doing today! I'm about to head to the gym, and then to the grocery store to buy the food for the recipes in Arnold's encyclopedia. I wasn't complaining, just saying that I'm pretty sure where my problem lies. I'm sure alot of others are in the same boat (lacking the nutrients needed to grow.) They just don't realise it or simply can't be bothered to do something about it (like me for quite a long time.)
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what if your problem lies in trying to do the stuff arnold did or claimed to do. a hardgainer could never handle that kind of training. each muscle for and hour or two 3 times a week? training twice a day? If arnold could handle it... well he was huge and on drugs. human beings can't do that stuff.
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what if your problem lies in trying to do the stuff arnold did or claimed to do. a hardgainer could never handle that kind of training. each muscle for and hour or two 3 times a week? training twice a day? If arnold could handle it... well he was huge and on drugs. human beings can't do that stuff.
Then, back off and train differently. Reduce your volume and, if necessary, stop training to failure. As the Awesome One, Lee Haney, liked to say, "Stimulate; don't annihilate. Not even Arnold HIMSELF would suggest that someone should train like him, if they can't recuperate from it, especially if their development is not on par with what his was in the Oak's prime.
Most of all, get those calories into that tummy. If it takes 4000 calories to get it done, eat/drink them. If that doesn't work, bump it up to 4500. Still stalled? Go for 5000!!
Don't stop until the scale starts moving and you start getting bigger and stronger.
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is't the tape measure and mirror more important than the scale. natural trainers grow muscle very slowly after their first year of "virgin gains". the extra food won't force the muscle to grow any faster.
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is't the tape measure and mirror more important than the scale. natural trainers grow muscle very slowly after their first year of "virgin gains". the extra food won't force the muscle to grow any faster.
The heck it won't!!! My "virgin gains" came in 1990, when I went from 142 to 163 lbs. in one semester of high school. I thought that this would be the only time I'd make gains that quickly, especially after I got to college.
Fast forward to 1996. I managed to get to 189 lbs. I re-read that issue of MuscleMag I mentioned, when I first posted on this thread (#145). This time, I paid specific attention to the diet section. I started that spring semester of school at 189 lbs., with the goal of hitting 200 by semester's end.
I hit 200 about 6-7 weeks ahead of schedule. So, I kept it up to see how much more progress I could make. The end result (as mentioned before): 210 lbs!! (with the abs all present and accounted for). So much for the slow progress after the "virgin gains".
And, NO!!! I did not take any anabolics. Every tip I have mentioned, I did myself (the blended home-made shakes, the bags of Mega Mass 2000, etc.).
I put on over 20 lbs. in three months in 1990. I duplicated that feat six years later. Granted, it took WAAAAAAY more calories to do it in '96 than it did in '90. But, I did it nonetheless.
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that's very good. but you still ate what you needed right? if that happened to be a lot then it was a lot.
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that's very good. but you still ate what you needed right? if that happened to be a lot then it was a lot.
Exactly!!! At that time, I needed several thousand calories to get bigger and stronger. So, that's what I did. I gave my body what it needed and it responded accordingly.
You may need 4000 calories (or more) to grow. If that's the case, let the eating/drinking begin. If you make the kind of gains that I did, you certainly won't feel like a hardgainer, anymore.
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Mcway-did you just eat 'clean' calories or just anything in order to bulk up?
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Hey MCWAY i posted tgis on nutrition board, have always thouight of myself as hardgainer (well not hardgainer, but a sometimes stuborn gainer).... but am finding ur posts on this interesting. Here is a rough diet etc, im 6'1/6'2 at about 185.
Il be spending £40 on supps wether i get 1 gainer and 1 weigh, or just 2 gainers, a month.
Iv sometimes had probs getting in enough daily calories/meals. I wanna make sure im really forcing the food in and feeding the muscles, i have pretty fast metabolism and think i can handle the extra carbs that the gainers has+i think i need the extra protein the gainer has.
Im in gym 3 times a week +hav rugby 3 times a week (2 training sessions and a game), so im burning up a fair few calories+i hav pretty fast metabolism, so can u see y i think i can handle/need the extra carbs aswell as protein?!
Diet looks roughly like this.
1. cereal+4 egg ommelette (i know cereal aint great but iv always loved it).
2. gainer shake with added protein, fruit.
3. 2 baked potatoes with can of tuna.
4. cup of whole wheat pasta+ cans tuna.
GYM
5. gainer shake with added protein (45g's protein, 62g's carbs).
6. evening meal e.g. salmon and boiled potatoes adn veggies.
7. gainer shake with added protein.
BED
Comes to about 253 g's carbs (not including baked potatoes as i dont no the carb numbers per potato) + about 223g's protein.
davie
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Mcway-did you just eat 'clean' calories or just anything in order to bulk up?
I listed the foods I ate, several posts ago: whole eggs, milk, beef, vegetables (from the salad bar in the college cafeteria) and Mega Mass 2000. If by your definition of "clean" you mean egg whites, chicken breasts, etc., NO!! I did not eat "clean".
With that said, just because you can eat more calorie-dense foods doesn't give you a license to pig out on junk. Truth be told, consuming such stuff gave me little room for any junk food (except for the occasional order of hot wings). I went without eating candy for nearly 2 years (when you're guzzling Mega Mass shakes repeatedly, the appetite for sweets just ain't there).
Keep in mind that this was about 10 years ago. I was younger, had a faster metabolism, and was more active outside the gym than I am now.
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Hey MCWAY i posted tgis on nutrition board, have always thouight of myself as hardgainer (well not hardgainer, but a sometimes stuborn gainer).... but am finding ur posts on this interesting. Here is a rough diet etc, im 6'1/6'2 at about 185.
Il be spending £40 on supps wether i get 1 gainer and 1 weigh, or just 2 gainers, a month.
Iv sometimes had probs getting in enough daily calories/meals. I wanna make sure im really forcing the food in and feeding the muscles, i have pretty fast metabolism and think i can handle the extra carbs that the gainers has+i think i need the extra protein the gainer has.
Im in gym 3 times a week +hav rugby 3 times a week (2 training sessions and a game), so im burning up a fair few calories+i hav pretty fast metabolism, so can u see y i think i can handle/need the extra carbs aswell as protein?!
Diet looks roughly like this.
1. cereal+4 egg ommelette (i know cereal aint great but iv always loved it).
2. gainer shake with added protein, fruit.
3. 2 baked potatoes with can of tuna.
4. cup of whole wheat pasta+ cans tuna.
GYM
5. gainer shake with added protein (45g's protein, 62g's carbs).
6. evening meal e.g. salmon and boiled potatoes adn veggies.
7. gainer shake with added protein.
BED
Comes to about 253 g's carbs (not including baked potatoes as i dont no the carb numbers per potato) + about 223g's protein.
davie
You might want to add a little more protein to some of those meals, particularly meals 1 and 3. How about a cup of yogurt with each of those meals, which can tack on about 8-12 extra grams of protein. Overall, you should try to push your protein intake to 300 grams. At 6'2", 185, you appear to be an ectomorph, so the extra protein and calories should serve you well.
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You might want to add a little more protein to some of those meals, particularly meals 1 and 3. How about a cup of yogurt with each of those meals, which can tack on about 8-12 extra grams of protein. Overall, you should try to push your protein intake to 300 grams. At 6'2", 185, you appear to be an ectomorph, so the extra protein and calories should serve you well.
Cheers buddy, il keep that in mind, i can see this diet cost creaping up lol.
I was wandering, how did u training program look when u wer doing this heavy bulking? Has it changed alot from then until now??
davie
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Cheers buddy, il keep that in mind, i can see this diet cost creaping up lol.
I was wandering, how did u training program look when u wer doing this heavy bulking? Has it changed alot from then until now??
davie
My training program has changed very little. As I mentioned earlier, I train (at least, with my upper body) using Alternates. Again, that simply means that I train antagonistic bodyparts together (chest and back, biceps and triceps, shoulders and traps). For instance, when doing back and chest, I'll do rows, rest for about 2 minutes, then do bench presses.
I don't train to failure, as doing so in the past hampered my ability to recover. Remember this: you can beat yourself in the gym all you want. But, if you don't recover from that beating, you WILL NOT GROW!!!
My split was (and still is) fairly simple: Monday and Thursday - upper body; Tuesday and Friday - legs. The one major change I've made over the years is that on Thursdays, I do arms first.
A minor change is that, as far as triceps is concerned, I've dropped barbell and dumbbell extensions. When I was heavier, such exercises didn't bother me. But, since I've leaned out somewhat, those moves were killing my elbows.
If you can hammer yourself in the gym and be slightly sore (or not sore at all), that's a good sign that you're recovering from your training. Again, based on your height and weight (and your assumed young age), you can certainly afford to pack away the groceries. I'd say your protein content should be 300 grams of protein, at a minimum.
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Nothing in life is either "hard" or "easy." The Law of Relativity says that nothing has any value until compared to something else.
People who label themselves hargainers are comparing themselves to people the "wish" they were like. This is not a healthy mental approach.
You only have your own body. It's you against you. That's it.
Wouldn't you go through the process with a lot less frustration by not labeling yourself a hardgainer?
What purpose does that serve?
And, if you insist on calling yourself a hardgainer, you better sure as hell never miss a workout and never skip a meal. If you aren't doing all of the basiscs and are still blaming your lack of success (which iss all relative), then calling yourself a hardgainer is just your excuse and a diversion.
A self-proclaimed hardgainer, in my humble opinion, will not have the mental fortitude to get the job done day in and day out.
Agreed!!
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gaining weight isnt just about eating enough, its about eating smart. sometimes hardgainers think they are eating a lot because of teh amount of food they eat in a meal, but in reality, the meal was large, but had very few calories.
try to make 5 super thick peanut butter sandwiches everyday, and i mean thick. the peanut butter should be oozing out the sides. put them in a tupper wear container and take them with you throughout the day whereever you go. eat a sandwich between every regular meal.
also, start buying milk. drink 1/2 a gallon a day, and then build up to a gallon a day.
milk and peanut butter will put on weight.
Throw in a cup of yogurt, with those sandwiches, and you're in busniess.
Or, if you're really strapped for cash, you can downevaporated milk. A 12-oz. can has 25 grams of protein and 300-500 calories, depending on the fat content.
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I was just wondering if this thread was still here!!!