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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: SF1900 on May 15, 2015, 10:58:03 PM
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I was watching the movie "Footloose" and thought of this question:
What is your opinion on Christian (or any other religious denomination) Rock music? My best friends brother (lets call him Joe) and wife are crazy religious. I mean, they make you and tbombz look normal when it comes to religion (no offense). They are so crazy, that they were going to move to the same state to be closer to their "leader." I forgot which religious sect they are.
Anyway, Joe and his family belonged to some church. I don't know the details, but there was a discussion about using Christian rock music to promote their religion (lets pretend they are christian, because I forgot which religious sect they belong to). The priest/pastor/minister (whatever he was) was highly against this. I guess he considered this "blasphemy." Joe was totally for christian rock music. He said as long as it praised God, its just fine. He said this is a good way to get teens into christianity. As long as the rock music praised God and Jesus, then that is what mattered. I believe Joe thought the priest was out of touch with today's times. Joe is about 40 years old. The priest was very old. Joe wound up leaving the church for another one.
Tdongz and MOS, would you be okay with Christian "rock" music? Using instruments to praise God? If God is in our hearts and mind, then clearly He has imbued himself into those who can play instruments to express themselves. Why give someone the beautiful gift of music (being able to play drums and guitar), yet not allow that person to express their love of God via music? It would seem counter-intuitive to give someone the gift of music, yet expect them to suppress it. Dancing and singing and praising the Lord!! I think Tbombz and MOS should start a christian rock group. :D ;D
In the movie "Footloose" Kevin Bacon (Ren) states:
"From the oldest of times, people danced for a number of reasons. They danced in prayer... or so that their crops would be plentiful... or so their hunt would be good. And they danced to stay physically fit... and show their community spirit. And they danced to celebrate."
Psalm 149 "Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song. Let them praise His name in the dance"?
"Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the LORD with all his might."
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I have no problem with Christian rock music. It's not a favorite of mine though.
I have no problem with some secular music either. That "some" isn't God-centered but it isn't anti-God either.
I'm simple. ...if something is offensive or offputting I don't listen. Majority of the time I'm listening to CCM or gospel music cause I enjoy it.
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I have no problem with Christian rock music. It's not a favorite of mine though.
I have no problem with some secular music either. That "some" isn't God-centered but it isn't anti-God either.
I'm simple. ...if something is offensive or offputting I don't listen. Majority of the time I'm listening to CCM or gospel music cause I enjoy it.
Why do you think this priest had such a problem with Christian Rock music? ???
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I have no problem with Christian rock music. It's not a favorite of mine though.
I have no problem with some secular music either. That "some" isn't God-centered but it isn't anti-God either.
I'm simple. ...if something is offensive or offputting I don't listen. Majority of the time I'm listening to CCM or gospel music cause I enjoy it.
MOS, which "secular" music/bands do you like? Slayer? Black Sabbath? ;D ;D
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Why do you think this priest had such a problem with Christian Rock music? ???
Some folks think it's a gateway to something sinful.....too much blending and indulgence of the secular world.
Scripture tells us to make a joyful noise unto the Lord....why can't Christian rock be that joyful noise?
Some just don't like the term "rock". There was a terrific youth group at a church I used to belong called "Solid Rock" but elders objected to the word "Rock" and wanted to call it "Solid Ground". Ignorant folks IMHO. Christ himself nicknamed his apostle Simon as Peter which means "rock". Christ also referred to himself as the rock upon which the church would be built. He nicknamed his apostles James and John the "Sons of Thunder". Sounds pretty 80s hairband LOL, but it's not.
I don't know. ...some folks think whatever they do.
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MOS, which "secular" music/bands do you like? Slayer? Black Sabbath? ;D ;D
I grew up on Metallica but I'm from South Texas so that's pronounced TALLICA (with a bad mexican accent)!!!!! From Kill Em All to Black albums I was faithful. I still know every word of Kill, Lightning, Puppets, Justice and Black LOL.
AC/DC, Sabbath, GnR, Pantera, 80s hairbands, Lynyrd Skynyrd and later Nirvana, STP, Pearl Jam, etc...were all part of the mix tapes.
Today I just want to glorify God because of the change he made in me.
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I grew up on Metallica but I'm from South Texas so that's pronounced TALLICA (with a bad mexican accent)!!!!! From Kill Em All to Black albums I was faithful. I still know every word of Kill, Lightning, Puppets, Justice and Black LOL.
AC/DC, Sabbath, GnR, Pantera, 80s hairbands, Lynyrd Skynyrd and later Nirvana, STP, Pearl Jam, etc...were all part of the mix tapes.
Today I just want to glorify God because of the change he made in me.
Okay, but you didn't answer which secular bands you now listen. The above bands were in the past. Which do you listen to NOW? You said there were still a few.
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Okay, but you didn't answer which secular bands you now listen. The above bands were in the past. Which do you listen to NOW? You said there were still a few.
Nothing of today's secular music interests me.....an occassional song does.
I primarily listen to CCM and gospel. Top40, today's rock, country, etc I don't follow.
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Nothing of today's secular music interests me.....an occassional song does.
I primarily listen to CCM and gospel. Top40, today's rock, country, etc I don't follow.
Whats wrong with Neal Diamond? :'( :'(
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Whats wrong with Neal Diamond? :'( :'(
I get my "Sweet Caroline" or "September Morn" on once in awhile!
Couple of weeks ago I listened to nothing but Christopher Cross. Sometimes I listen to nothing but Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder.
A couples month ago I listened to Stevie Ray Vaughn everyday for hours.
My wife and daughter keep me completely in touch with all things Taylor Swift so I know he current albums backwards and fowards LOL.
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I get my "Sweet Caroline" or "September Morn" on once in awhile!
Couple of weeks ago I listened to nothing but Christopher Cross. Sometimes I listen to nothing but Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder.
A couples month ago I listened to Stevie Ray Vaughn everyday for hours.
My wife and daughter keep me completely in touch with all things Taylor Swift so I know he current albums backwards and fowards LOL.
What would you do if your children or wife or friends were listening to Heavy Metal or Rock music?
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What would you do if your children or wife or friends were listening to Heavy Metal or Rock music?
Couple of my friends from years past are still huge metalheads. I used to go see Metallica or King Diamond with them, but today things are different.
They're grown men now so they do their own thing. They're more turned off today that I'm a family man.
My wife used to go to concerts with me and she used to love Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails and Tool, but she doesn't listen to it today. Today her favorite secular band is U2.
My musical tastes have been very broad. From metal, to rock, to top 40, to soft rock, bluegrass, blues, big band, straight up jazz, funk, country, classical, orchestral, CCM and gospel. Probably the only form of music that never resonated with me was reggae....don't hate it, but don't listen either.
Even during my metal years my favorite artist is still a Canadian born jazz musician (trumpet player) named Maynard Ferguson. I own about 70 of his albums, saw him many times over 20 years and met him a couple of times. Love his music from the 30s and 40s with the Stan Kenton big band up until he passed away in August 2006 with his Big Bop Noveau band.
There is no "what if" scenario for my wife....that time has come and gone.....her adult preferences are cemented. My daughter, on the other hand, is very young today and from me she gets exposure to CCM and gospel and she loves a lot of it. From her mother she gets CCM, some top 40 and country.
She'll make her own choices as she gets older, but she'll also know exactly where Mommy and Daddy stand.
[the underlined points above will be the initial foundation for the "brainwashing" charge later on]
******** Here's the shift in this topic.....this is where "the trap" is set based upon my next expected comments ******** :) :)
Now there will be no occult or Satanic music in my house though (whatever that entails)....still my house LOL. If she happens to want to indulge in that stuff she'll do it outside of the house.
I'll raise her in a Christian environment, but ultimately she'll make her own choices about everything and as she matures will work through those choices like each of us do. If she needs help she's got it.
The difference will be that when the she comes with questions about religion, the bible and God that her Daddy will be different from other parents in that he won't give her a "deer in the headlights" expression and stammer ignorantly with "uhhhhh.....uhhhhhh.....u hhhhhh" when she asks "tough bible questions" that she learned herself or were taught by others. I'll answer questions, walk her through scripture, walk her through theology and present the other side of the coin....as best I'm able. I won't do what so many other parents do and toss out a casual "you gotta have more faith" or "ask the teacher in Sunday school".....she'll get a confident, direct response from her Dad. ;)
[the underlined points above will be the secondary foundation for the later argument about brainwashing and challenging "I thought she could make her own choices"]
******** Here's the breaking point of things....the shift in topic if you will......already knew exactly where this was headed ******** :) :)
Now, I know you want me to give my daughter no religious influence whatsoever and allow her to discover all things on her own. Keep her a blank slate in that regard so that her choices to be religious or not religious are completely her own and "uncorrupted" by her religious-nutter parents because "religion and theism is the most divisive, dangerous position on earth". If me and her mother go to church that's fine, but don't take her with us....find her a non-religious alternative. If she later decides on her own to go to church then fine, but only then.
That isn't going to happen LOL.
To which you'll respond, "So you're comfortable brainwashing your child with religious nonsense and aren't really giving her a choice. Some parent you are.......etc." Some version of that, but more drawn out.
Everything I said previously about letting her makes her own choices will be tossed out and the word "influence" will be translated into "brainwashing". References to bizarre, fundamentalist religious camps with children weeping aloud to God will occur. More generalizations and offtopic comments about my "religious nuttery" will be casually tossed out in red herring fashion. All manner of "what if" circumstances will potentially be laid out and referenced as the truth of the matter going forward.
I'll refer you back to my original posts, but it won't matter. This would go on back and forth for several cycles. Me saying the same thing and you telling me why I'm wrong, a bad parent, a brainwasher of children, a religious tyrant forcing my beliefs on children. At this stage the scope of my "brainwashing" will have shifted from just my daughter to a generalization of ALL children I encounter....I'll be the "religious boogeyman" LOL.
It will literally follow something very close to this. And all this because of tastes in music.
There it's been nipped in the bud. ;)
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Couple of my friends from years past are still huge metalheads. I used to go see Metallica or King Diamond with them, but today things are different.
They're grown men now so they do their own thing. They're more turned off today that I'm a family man.
My wife used to go to concerts with me and she used to love Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails and Tool, but she doesn't listen to it today. Today her favorite secular band is U2.
My musical tastes have been very broad. From metal, to rock, to top 40, to soft rock, bluegrass, blues, big band, straight up jazz, funk, country, classical, orchestral, CCM and gospel. Probably the only form of music that never resonated with me was reggae....don't hate it, but don't listen either.
Even during my metal years my favorite artist is still a Canadian born jazz musician (trumpet player) named Maynard Ferguson. I own about 70 of his albums, saw him many times over 20 years and met him a couple of times. Love his music from the 30s and 40s with the Stan Kenton big band up until he passed away in August 2006 with his Big Bop Noveau band.
There is no "what if" scenario for my wife....that time has come and gone.....her adult preferences are cemented. My daughter, on the other hand, is very young today and from me she gets exposure to CCM and gospel and she loves a lot of it. From her mother she gets CCM, some top 40 and country.
She'll make her own choices as she gets older, but she'll also know exactly where Mommy and Daddy stand.
[the underlined points above will be the initial foundation for the "brainwashing" charge later on]
******** Here's the shift in this topic.....this is where "the trap" is set based upon my next expected comments ******** :) :)
Now there will be no occult or Satanic music in my house though (whatever that entails)....still my house LOL. If she happens to want to indulge in that stuff she'll do it outside of the house.
I'll raise her in a Christian environment, but ultimately she'll make her own choices about everything and as she matures will work through those choices like each of us do. If she needs help she's got it.
The difference will be that when the she comes with questions about religion, the bible and God that her Daddy will be different from other parents in that he won't give her a "deer in the headlights" expression and stammer ignorantly with "uhhhhh.....uhhhhhh.....u hhhhhh" when she asks "tough bible questions" that she learned herself or were taught by others. I'll answer questions, walk her through scripture, walk her through theology and present the other side of the coin....as best I'm able. I won't do what so many other parents do and toss out a casual "you gotta have more faith" or "ask the teacher in Sunday school".....she'll get a confident, direct response from her Dad. ;)
[the underlined points above will be the secondary foundation for the later argument about brainwashing and challenging "I thought she could make her own choices"]
******** Here's the breaking point of things....the shift in topic if you will......already knew exactly where this was headed ******** :) :)
Now, I know you want me to give my daughter no religious influence whatsoever and allow her to discover all things on her own. Keep her a blank slate in that regard so that her choices to be religious or not religious are completely her own and "uncorrupted" by her religious-nutter parents because "religion and theism is the most divisive, dangerous position on earth". If me and her mother go to church that's fine, but don't take her with us....find her a non-religious alternative. If she later decides on her own to go to church then fine, but only then.
That isn't going to happen LOL.
To which you'll respond, "So you're comfortable brainwashing your child with religious nonsense and aren't really giving her a choice. Some parent you are.......etc." Some version of that, but more drawn out.
Everything I said previously about letting her makes her own choices will be tossed out and the word "influence" will be translated into "brainwashing". References to bizarre, fundamentalist religious camps with children weeping aloud to God will occur. More generalizations and offtopic comments about my "religious nuttery" will be casually tossed out in red herring fashion. All manner of "what if" circumstances will potentially be laid out and referenced as the truth of the matter going forward.
I'll refer you back to my original posts, but it won't matter. This would go on back and forth for several cycles. Me saying the same thing and you telling me why I'm wrong, a bad parent, a brainwasher of children, a religious tyrant forcing my beliefs on children. At this stage the scope of my "brainwashing" will have shifted from just my daughter to a generalization of ALL children I encounter....I'll be the "religious boogeyman" LOL.
It will literally follow something very close to this. And all this because of tastes in music.
There it's been nipped in the bud. ;)
Sorry, feeling saucy today! ;)
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Couple of my friends from years past are still huge metalheads. I used to go see Metallica or King Diamond with them, but today things are different.
They're grown men now so they do their own thing. They're more turned off today that I'm a family man.
My wife used to go to concerts with me and she used to love Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails and Tool, but she doesn't listen to it today. Today her favorite secular band is U2.
My musical tastes have been very broad. From metal, to rock, to top 40, to soft rock, bluegrass, blues, big band, straight up jazz, funk, country, classical, orchestral, CCM and gospel. Probably the only form of music that never resonated with me was reggae....don't hate it, but don't listen either.
Even during my metal years my favorite artist is still a Canadian born jazz musician (trumpet player) named Maynard Ferguson. I own about 70 of his albums, saw him many times over 20 years and met him a couple of times. Love his music from the 30s and 40s with the Stan Kenton big band up until he passed away in August 2006 with his Big Bop Noveau band.
There is no "what if" scenario for my wife....that time has come and gone.....her adult preferences are cemented. My daughter, on the other hand, is very young today and from me she gets exposure to CCM and gospel and she loves a lot of it. From her mother she gets CCM, some top 40 and country.
She'll make her own choices as she gets older, but she'll also know exactly where Mommy and Daddy stand.
[the underlined points above will be the initial foundation for the "brainwashing" charge later on]
******** Here's the shift in this topic.....this is where "the trap" is set based upon my next expected comments ******** :) :)
Now there will be no occult or Satanic music in my house though (whatever that entails)....still my house LOL. If she happens to want to indulge in that stuff she'll do it outside of the house.
I'll raise her in a Christian environment, but ultimately she'll make her own choices about everything and as she matures will work through those choices like each of us do. If she needs help she's got it.
The difference will be that when the she comes with questions about religion, the bible and God that her Daddy will be different from other parents in that he won't give her a "deer in the headlights" expression and stammer ignorantly with "uhhhhh.....uhhhhhh.....u hhhhhh" when she asks "tough bible questions" that she learned herself or were taught by others. I'll answer questions, walk her through scripture, walk her through theology and present the other side of the coin....as best I'm able. I won't do what so many other parents do and toss out a casual "you gotta have more faith" or "ask the teacher in Sunday school".....she'll get a confident, direct response from her Dad. ;)
[the underlined points above will be the secondary foundation for the later argument about brainwashing and challenging "I thought she could make her own choices"]
******** Here's the breaking point of things....the shift in topic if you will......already knew exactly where this was headed ******** :) :)
Now, I know you want me to give my daughter no religious influence whatsoever and allow her to discover all things on her own. Keep her a blank slate in that regard so that her choices to be religious or not religious are completely her own and "uncorrupted" by her religious-nutter parents because "religion and theism is the most divisive, dangerous position on earth". If me and her mother go to church that's fine, but don't take her with us....find her a non-religious alternative. If she later decides on her own to go to church then fine, but only then.
That isn't going to happen LOL.
To which you'll respond, "So you're comfortable brainwashing your child with religious nonsense and aren't really giving her a choice. Some parent you are.......etc." Some version of that, but more drawn out.
Everything I said previously about letting her makes her own choices will be tossed out and the word "influence" will be translated into "brainwashing". References to bizarre, fundamentalist religious camps with children weeping aloud to God will occur. More generalizations and offtopic comments about my "religious nuttery" will be casually tossed out in red herring fashion. All manner of "what if" circumstances will potentially be laid out and referenced as the truth of the matter going forward.
I'll refer you back to my original posts, but it won't matter. This would go on back and forth for several cycles. Me saying the same thing and you telling me why I'm wrong, a bad parent, a brainwasher of children, a religious tyrant forcing my beliefs on children. At this stage the scope of my "brainwashing" will have shifted from just my daughter to a generalization of ALL children I encounter....I'll be the "religious boogeyman" LOL.
It will literally follow something very close to this. And all this because of tastes in music.
There it's been nipped in the bud. ;)
Maybe your friends don't hang out with you as much, not because you're a family man, but because you try to shove religion down their throat every time you hang out? Shit, if I was your friend, I would have probably told you to fuck off by now. I think youre telling yourself its because youre a family man. Maybe it has nothing to do with that. Perhaps they just don't like to be preached too because they are adults and can make their own decisions. I am sure you will tell me you never ever preach to them. :-\ :-\ :D :D Which is hard to believe, because we know religious people can't help themselves. Waking me up at 8am in the morning and handing out their pamphlets. >:( >:(
As for you brainwashing your child, well, I disagree that she should not be allowed to listen to certain music because its YOUR house. I do not think that is good parenting, but to each their own. Your child, her life. Not my child. Don't care about her. Do as you wish :D :D
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Maybe your friends don't hang out with you as much, not because you're a family man, but because you try to shove religion down their throat every time you hang out? Shit, if I was your friend, I would have probably told you to fuck off by now. I think youre telling yourself its because youre a family man. Maybe it has nothing to do with that. Perhaps they just don't like to be preached too because they are adults and can make their own decisions. I am sure you will tell me you never ever preach to them. :-\ :-\ :D :D Which is hard to believe, because we know religious people can't help themselves. Waking me up at 8am in the morning and handing out their pamphlets. >:( >:(
As for you brainwashing your child, well, I disagree that she should not be allowed to listen to certain music because its YOUR house. I do not think that is good parenting, but to each their own. Your child, her life. Not my child. Don't care about her. Do as you wish :D :D
Well, there are some that have abandoned ship because of my faith, but these guys are different. They left long ago because me and another friend we both got married and had kiddos. This was before I got my heart right with God.....they don't even know about my faith. They ran for the hills as soon as we announced my wife was pregnant.
But yes, faith in Christ does cause both family and friends to remove themselves from a believer's life. Not always, but it does happen. I have some family that won't talk about religion unless I'm not in the room. My best friend won't talk about religion at all anymore around me (he's a nonbeliever).
There's folks on GB that were cool with me for years and when my heart changed haven't said a word to me. Hey, it is what it is.
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i think for a lot of people, because they have been conditioned to respond certain ways to certain sounds, for example... the sound of heavy metal or the sound of hardcore rap, because these sounds have always been associated with sinful lyrics, many people automatically start feeling sinful emotions when they hear certain music. even if that music has God-honoring lyrics set to it. so.. while I do not think there is anything wrong with Christian heavy metal, Christian rap, etc... in fact, i think it is great to see any kind of art which glorifies God, however, for most people most the time, its probably best not to listen to certain kinds of music, regardless of lyrical content, because the music itself may arouse sinful emotions due to previous conditioning.
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Well, there are some that have abandoned ship because of my faith, but these guys are different. They left long ago because me and another friend we both got married and had kiddos. This was before I got my heart right with God.....they don't even know about my faith. They ran for the hills as soon as we announced my wife was pregnant.
But yes, faith in Christ does cause both family and friends to remove themselves from a believer's life. Not always, but it does happen. I have some family that won't talk about religion unless I'm not in the room. My best friend won't talk about religion at all anymore around me (he's a nonbeliever).
There's folks on GB that were cool with me for years and when my heart changed haven't said a word to me. Hey, it is what it is.
Most atheists stop being friends with religious people because religious people are constantly trying to shove it down their throats. Most atheists people have no problem with religious people, as long as they keep it to themselves. But if a religious friend is always trying to convert the atheist friend, like youre doing on here, you cant blame the atheist friend for leaving. I would tell the person to fuck off and I am an adult who can make my own decision.
The difference is that the atheist will only unfriend a theist if the theist tries to shove it down their throat. Whereas, the theist will just stop being friends with an atheist for no reason other than the person is an atheist (even if the atheist doesnt talk about his atheism).
Look at the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of families, friends and communities who reject someone because they are an atheist. It happens much more than an atheist unfriending or disowning a family member because they are a theist. Sorry, it just does. Heck, there are organizations for atheists to go to after having lost EVERYTHING--being disowned for being an atheist. It is A LOT more likely that a theist parent will disown their atheist child, as opposed to an atheist parent disowning their theist child. There are just so many more instances of this happening.
By the way, you can't use getbig as a barometer, as this place is like the wild, wild west.
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i think for a lot of people, because they have been conditioned to respond certain ways to certain sounds, for example... the sound of heavy metal or the sound of hardcore rap, because these sounds have always been associated with sinful lyrics, many people automatically start feeling sinful emotions when they hear certain music.
Where's your evidence? You're stating this as an assumption, without any evidence to back it up. I do not feel sinful emotions when I listen to heavy metal or rock.
even if that music has God-honoring lyrics set to it. so.. while I do not think there is anything wrong with Christian heavy metal, Christian rap, etc... in fact, i think it is great to see any kind of art which glorifies God, however, for most people most the time, its probably best not to listen to certain kinds of music, regardless of lyrical content, because the music itself may arouse sinful emotions due to previous conditioning.
Again, no evidence that music arouses sinful emotions. Just more conjecture. Second, even if it did arouse sinful emotion, who cares. Emotions are natural and part of life. What are these sinful emotions? Anger, lust, greed, temptation, etc? These are all human emotions. Every single person experiences them. You can't separate negative emotions from the person.
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SF, are you honestly asking me questions out of interest in my faith... or are you just trying to argue ?
On the one hand, you seem to deny that there is such a thing as sin... on the other, you seem to agree that sin exists but deny that you practice it ?
If you want my evidence that music can arouse sinful behavior, i could present to you my own experiences. or i could present to you the experiences of others...
but, i dont think you are actually interested in hearing what ive got to say about it...
i think youve got your mind made up...
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SF, are you honestly asking me questions out of interest in my faith... or are you just trying to argue ?
Me asking you a question does not preclude me from debating and asking questions in return. Most discussions are rarely ever one-sides. That is not how it works.
On the one hand, you seem to deny that there is such a thing as sin... on the other, you seem to agree that sin exists but deny that you practice it ?
Of course I deny there is such a thing as sin. "Sin" does not exist in the sense you're describing it.
I never stated that sin exists. I stated that EMOTIONS exist. You call them "sinful" emotions. I just call them "emotions," something we every human experiences. I deny that I practice sin, but fully acknowledge that I experience a range of emotions.
If you want my evidence that music can arouse sinful behavior, i could present to you my own experiences. or i could present to you the experiences of others...
Of course you can. And I can present counter-experiences to your experiences.
but, i dont think you are actually interested in hearing what ive got to say about it... i think youve got your mind made up...
How did you come to that conclusion? Sure, I am interested in what you have to say. It does not mean that its going to automatically change my mind.
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ok, well your questions were... 1) wheres my evidence? , and 2) why care about sin?
heres my answers..
1) my evidence is my own personal experience.. (although you can google search 'murderer inspired by satanic music' and find a ton of real world examples)
2) we should care about sin because sin separates us from God, and being in communion with God is the greatest pleasure in the universe.
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ok, well your questions were... 1) wheres my evidence? , and 2) why care about sin?
heres my answers..
1) my evidence is my own personal experience.. (although you can google search 'murderer inspired by satanic music' and find a ton of real world examples)
2) we should care about sin because sin separates us from God, and being in communion with God is the greatest pleasure in the universe.
Please provide me your evidence for #2. Also please provide a natural, testable, repeatable platform that allows for complete demonstration of "communion with God" and the existence of "God" and "sin"; in addition, please provide distinguished, scientific peer reviews and publications of findings in distinguished scientific journals.
In addition, I demand a cogent definition of your "God" and all theological terms therein (ex: think of President Clinton asking to define the word "is"). I have never heard a single cogent definition so make every attempt to "WOW" me.
Please ignore the following: scripture, apologetics, emotional appeals, testimonies of believers, archeological findings, manuscript evidence and God's requirements. What we demand is a "bottling" of the supernatural God in a natural, scientific testing environment so that we may see, touch, smell and taste him on our terms.
Once you satisfy this then I'll detail my other evidential yet fully subjective requirements. When those are complete then I'll review the data, have my findings peer reviewed and then we'll talk. Remember, this process is not about you. It certainly isn't about "God". It's about me.
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1) my evidence is my own personal experience.. (although you can google search 'murderer inspired by satanic music' and find a ton of real world examples)
Horrible evidence. There are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people who listen to heavy metal and rock music and never ever commit a crime. Those people who listen to satanic music and murder someone, have mental issues, above and beyond just listening to satanic music. Heck, I listen to Black Sabbath, Slayer and Deicide. Never committed a crime like you, Tbombz. Rather ironic, huh? :D :D
You're simplifying the mind of the killer, which has been extensively studied by crimonologists, psychologist, sociologists, neuroscientists, etc. To narrow down the behavior of murder to satanic music is extremely narrow minded and not taken into consideration other factors that contribute to a killer.
we should care about sin because sin separates us from God, and being in communion with God is the greatest pleasure in the universe.
I reject your God, so this means absolutely nothing to me. Its just sophistry.
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Please provide me your evidence for #2. Also please provide a natural, testable, repeatable platform that allows for complete demonstration of "communion with God" and the existence of "God" and "sin"; in addition, please provide distinguished, scientific peer reviews and publications of findings in distinguished scientific journals.
In addition, I demand a cogent definition of your "God" and all theological terms therein (ex: think of President Clinton asking to define the word "is"). I have never heard a single cogent definition so make every attempt to "WOW" me.
Please ignore the following: scripture, apologetics, emotional appeals, testimonies of believers, archeological findings, manuscript evidence and God's requirements. What we demand is a "bottling" of the supernatural God in a natural, scientific testing environment so that we may see, touch, smell and taste him on our terms.
Once you satisfy this then I'll detail my other evidential yet fully subjective requirements. When those are complete then I'll review the data, have my findings peer reviewed and then we'll talk. Remember, this process is not about you. It certainly isn't about "God". It's about me.
I can easily write a response refuting the emotional appeals, manuscripts, scripture, archeological findings, apologetics, etc. However, I will not because its obvious your post was seeped in sarcasm. So, no sense of even going there.
Anyway, I know its tough when people ask really hard questions and demand solid evidence. Ruffles your feathers, so you make sarcastic posts like the one above. :D :D I bet you wished we lived in the 1500s where people blindly accepted God, and anyone who questioned God was burned alive. And you know what? The fact that theists get so angry and make sarcastic posts like you did makes me giggle every time. You can just sense the frustration of your post :D I absolutely love it! :D :D I love seeing the religious nutters on the news that are all like, "Christianity is dying" or "Christianity is under attack" or "They are taking away my religion." lol. You can just feel how angry they are that there are organizations and people fighting back against religion. You can sense the anger, the resentment, the frustration in their emotions, thoughts, and behaviors. There is a definite cultural shift in terms of religion over the last 50 years. And it eats those religious people alive. And I love it. :D
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I can easily write a response refuting the emotional appeals, manuscripts, scripture, archeological findings, apologetics, etc. However, I will not because its obvious your post was seeped in sarcasm. So, no sense of even going there.
Anyway, I know its tough when people ask really hard questions and demand solid evidence. Ruffles your feathers, so you make sarcastic posts like the one above. :D :D I bet you wished we lived in the 1500s where people blindly accepted God, and anyone who questioned God was burned alive. And you know what? The fact that theists get so angry and make sarcastic posts like you did makes me giggle every time. You can just sense the frustration of your post :D I absolutely love it! :D :D I love seeing the religious nutters on the news that are all like, "Christianity is dying" or "Christianity is under attack" or "They are taking away my religion." lol. You can just feel how angry they are that there are organizations and people fighting back against religion. You can sense the anger, the resentment, the frustration in their emotions, thoughts, and behaviors. There is a definite cultural shift in terms of religion over the last 50 years. And it eats those religious people alive. And I love it. :D
Please refute it....fire away chief! Let's take the "emotional appeals" for example. Tell me why you know better about the personal revelations I've had with God and why it wasn't real and isn't evidence. Tell me why with zero experience or knowledge of God you know this with certainty. Keep in mind this isn't science or naturalism being discussed and attempts to conform the situation to fit it's requirements does not work. And please don't take the "you can't prove it either" angle otherwise I just have to restate the "can't lead a horse to water" comment again and my typing fingers are tired.
LOL!! You can feel my Christian rage!! All I did was cobble together every generic atheist evidence requirement into a few sentences.....atheists hate tastes of their own medicine. Christians are just used to this stuff.
The tough questions are now pretty easy to answer for me....other theists not so much....I listen, study and think. What's truly difficult for theists is leading a horse to water and making it drink.
Problem with so many folks is that they live on Planet Burger King and want everything their way.
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Please refute it....fire away chief! Let's take the "emotional appeals" for example. Tell me why you know better about the personal revelations I've had with God and why it wasn't real and isn't evidence. Tell me why with zero experience or knowledge of God you know this with certainty. Keep in mind this isn't science or naturalism being discussed and attempts to conform the situation to fit it's requirements does not work. And please don't take the "you can't prove it either" angle otherwise I just have to restate the "can't lead a horse to water" comment again.
LOL!! You can feel my Christian rage!! All I did was cobble together every generic atheist evidence requirement into a few sentences.....atheists hate tastes of their own medicine.
The tough questions are now pretty easy to answer for me....other theists not so much....I listen, study and think. What's truly difficult for theists is leading a horse to water and making it drink.
Problem with so many folks is that they live on Planet Burger King and want everything their way.
haha, sure. If you were not frustrated or angry you would not have posted such a sarcastic comment. No one who is totally okay with an idea would post such a response. Come on, you know as well as I do that you wish it was 500 years ago so the church can rule like it used to. Its obvious people like yourself hate the fact that people talk so outright against religion. You know as well as I do that you wish that would not happen. Cut the crap. :D :D
The taste of my own medicine? Giving me a taste of my own medicine would be showing me scientific proof that God exists, since atheists rely so heavily on science. Hate to break it to you, you did not give me a taste of my own medicine. But whatever helps you sleep at night. :D
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haha, sure. If you were not frustrated or angry you would not have posted such a sarcastic comment. No one who is totally okay with an idea would post such a response. Come on, you know as well as I do that you wish it was 500 years ago so the church can rule like it used to. Its obvious people like yourself hate the fact that people talk so outright against religion. You know as well as I do that you wish that would not happen. Cut the crap. :D :D
The taste of my own medicine? Giving me a taste of my own medicine would be showing me scientific proof that God exists, since atheists rely so heavily on science. Hate to break it to you, you did not give me a taste of my own medicine. But whatever helps you sleep at night. :D
I respond with far more sarcasm today because I've exhausted the sincerity and already know the end result. The sincerity is still there....I've made that plain. I just attempt to keep things brief today and just use more sarcasm and humor and generic replies. The gospel message has been spread many, many times over by me. You've made it plain you don't want it....so I don't give it anymore or keep it very, very limited for you. How many times have I heard by you and others "MOS you don't need to be so serious....lighten up....have some fun.....have a sense of humor!"
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I respond with far more sarcasm today because I've exhausted the sincerity and already know the end result. The sincerity is still there....I've made that plain. I just attempt to keep things brief today and just use more sarcasm and humor and generic replies. The gospel message has been spread many, many times over by me. You've made it plain you don't want it....so I don't give it anymore or keep it very, very limited for you. How many times have I heard by you and others "MOS you don't need to be so serious....lighten up....have some fun.....have a sense of humor!"
As AVXO said to you, just because you provide an answer it doesn't mean we have to accept, nor does it mean it has satisfied us. So, whenever you say, "I already gave an answer," I reply with, "So what?"
Discourse doesn't end because YOU feel like you gave a necessary answer. That is not how it works.
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Please provide me your evidence for #2. Also please provide a natural, testable, repeatable platform that allows for complete demonstration of "communion with God" and the existence of "God" and "sin"; in addition, please provide distinguished, scientific peer reviews and publications of findings in distinguished scientific journals.
In addition, I demand a cogent definition of your "God" and all theological terms therein (ex: think of President Clinton asking to define the word "is"). I have never heard a single cogent definition so make every attempt to "WOW" me.
Please ignore the following: scripture, apologetics, emotional appeals, testimonies of believers, archeological findings, manuscript evidence and God's requirements. What we demand is a "bottling" of the supernatural God in a natural, scientific testing environment so that we may see, touch, smell and taste him on our terms.
Once you satisfy this then I'll detail my other evidential yet fully subjective requirements. When those are complete then I'll review the data, have my findings peer reviewed and then we'll talk. Remember, this process is not about you. It certainly isn't about "God". It's about me.
:'(
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we should care about sin because sin separates us from God, and being in communion with God is the greatest pleasure in the universe.
I reject your God, so this means absolutely nothing to me. Its just sophistry.
SF... when i was 10 years old, i made better arguments against Christ than you are making now.
:)
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SF... when i was 10 years old, i made better arguments against Christ than you are making now.
:)
As if your argument that Satanic music made them kill people is any better lol.
Pot meet kettle.
Of course I can come up with a better argument. But, like MOS, Id rather be sarcastic and troll.
PS - sure, when you were 10 years old you made better arguments ::) ::). you're not as smart as you think you are. If you were, you would have never dressed up in a bunny suit, posed half naked, posted pics on the internet, got arrested, and stole from your parents. 😂😃
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SF... please let me apologize for being somewhat argumentative with you... I love you, man..
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:'(
I was just kidding there LOL!! A little poke at our atheist counterparts. ;)
I'm on board with you brother!!
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As AVXO said to you, just because you provide an answer it doesn't mean we have to accept, nor does it mean it has satisfied us. So, whenever you say, "I already gave an answer," I reply with, "So what?"
Discourse doesn't end because YOU feel like you gave a necessary answer. That is not how it works.
Well on certain topics it kinda does because my answers have been given....those are my answers....they aren't changing. Now, you're welcome to rephrase a question in hopes of a different answer, but unless the topic shifts the answers will be the same answers. There's a lesson to be learned from Einstein in these moments. I know my answers aren't accepted, liked, deemed "cogent", considered correct or sufficient. None of that matters though because the old atheists or agnostics I'm replying to here aren't my audience. They just pose the questions and objections....just glorified mouthpieces that create a platform.
My approach to atheists is changing though. If you've spoken to me for years and years that means I've written and written and written and and answered and answered. For those folks they're going to be directed to my old posts or a Google search because once an issue has been rehashed I'm probably not going to entertain it anymore unless the spirit leads me to do so. If a thread is the same atheist and theist players I'm not gonna waste time....gonna be a lot of one liners and generics. If it's new folks I'll definitely take the time, but I'll evaluate how they respond to me and remember that going forward. If I give an exhaustive reply to a classic new atheist "red herring dump" and all I get is "TL/DR" or "not gonna respond to this" or "bull$*!t".....I'm basically done with that person going forward. They've earned their membership to the short, generic replies club.
Again, I'm not concerned whether or not the atheists will accept my answers....I never....EVER.....expect they will. Further the atheist can't discern the things of the spirit because the Holy Spirit is not in them.....even that statement is meaningless or considered foolishness to the atheist.
I'm here to provide the other side for consideration by others that have not made choices. [<<<==== this sentence is probably all most would get] Posted this more times than I have fingers and toes to count. ;D
I still reply to you more exhaustively at times because you do want to discuss.....feel privileged ;)....you're one of the few LOL!! ;D We get heated and all that at times. I've said stuff to you in the heat of discussion and vice versa.....I just try to be cool about things in the end.
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Losing argument on both sides, colossal waste of time and energy.
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I was just kidding there LOL!! A little poke at our atheist counterparts. ;)
I'm on board with you brother!!
I know, dude! :)
I was crying over the fact that your post is actually representative of the reality concerning people who question God
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I know, dude! :)
I was crying over the fact that your post is actually representative of the reality concerning people who question God
Sorry, sometimes I'm just flat out dense. ;D
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SF... please let me apologize for being somewhat argumentative with you... I love you, man..
You can't love me like my parents or friends love me. Its erroneous to throw around the word "Love." In what context are you using the word "Love?"
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I know, dude! :)
I was crying over the fact that your post is actually representative of the reality concerning people who question God
Yes, reality, we all live in it. Well, not you and MOS. :D ;D
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Well on certain topics it kinda does because my answers have been given....those are my answers....they aren't changing. Now, you're welcome to rephrase a question in hopes of a different answer, but unless the topic shifts the answers will be the same answers. There's a lesson to be learned from Einstein in these moments. I know my answers aren't accepted, liked, deemed "cogent", considered correct or sufficient. None of that matters though because the old atheists or agnostics I'm replying to here aren't my audience. They just pose the questions and objections....just glorified mouthpieces that create a platform.
My approach to atheists is changing though. If you've spoken to me for years and years that means I've written and written and written and and answered and answered. For those folks they're going to be directed to my old posts or a Google search because once an issue has been rehashed I'm probably not going to entertain it anymore unless the spirit leads me to do so. If a thread is the same atheist and theist players I'm not gonna waste time....gonna be a lot of one liners and generics. If it's new folks I'll definitely take the time, but I'll evaluate how they respond to me and remember that going forward. If I give an exhaustive reply to a classic new atheist "red herring dump" and all I get is "TL/DR" or "not gonna respond to this" or "bull$*!t".....I'm basically done with that person going forward. They've earned their membership to the short, generic replies club.
Again, I'm not concerned whether or not the atheists will accept my answers....I never....EVER.....expect they will. Further the atheist can't discern the things of the spirit because the Holy Spirit is not in them.....even that statement is meaningless or considered foolishness to the atheist.
I'm here to provide the other side for consideration by others that have not made choices. [<<<==== this sentence is probably all most would get] Posted this more times than I have fingers and toes to count. ;D
I still reply to you more exhaustively at times because you do want to discuss.....feel privileged ;)....you're one of the few LOL!! ;D We get heated and all that at times. I've said stuff to you in the heat of discussion and vice versa.....I just try to be cool about things in the end.
The same goes for the theist, never ever accepting an answer by an atheist.
Trust me, its not just atheists. ::)
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You can't love me like my parents or friends love me. Its erroneous to throw around the word "Love." In what context are you using the word "Love?"
It's a love that extends from a regenerated heart in Christ. It's a love that extends beyond the love of ones family and friends. It's not an intimate love like a love for family and friends, but it's a brotherly love that desires for the soul's of all men to be redeemed in Christ. A love that desires for all to experience the love of Christ. A love that desires for all to spend eternity in fellowship with one another in communion with Christ. On the other hand, it's also a similar love that some experience in which they desire to express compassion and charity for their neighbors, their community, for the sick, the hurting, the abandoned. As an unbeliever I did experience that type of love for others on occassion, but with Christ in me that love has swelled, it remains in me always and it grows. It's a love that desires for me to pray for and lovingly consider those that ridicule me or would consider me an enemy.
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The same goes for the theist, never ever accepting an answer by an atheist.
Trust me, its not just atheists. ::)
I do this often and I can do it this case also....I can go through my post history and show plenty of examples in which I continually agree with atheists on both both topics of science and religion. "Agreement" with atheists is a non-issue for me. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't.
What I don't do is enter into discussions with atheists with the notion that I will convert them or that they will agree with anything I say. If they do then wonderful, but I have no expectation of that.
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Yes, reality, we all live in it. Well, not you and MOS. :D ;D
Agreed we all exist and live in reality, but we don't live according to your worldview. ;)
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You can't love me like my parents or friends love me. Its erroneous to throw around the word "Love." In what context are you using the word "Love?"
Very true, I cannot love you in exactly the same manner as someone else does.
I love you in the context of loving you: I love you.
I love you because you are a living, breathing, thinking, feeling, LOVING, human being created in the image of God.
And I care about you. I do not want you to suffer, or to feel pain, or to feel lonely or unloved.
I want you, my fellow human being, to experience joy, and happiness, and love, and communion with God!
I want to spend eternity with you, rejoicing together in the presence of Jesus.
I love you!
:)
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Very true, I cannot love you in exactly the same manner as someone else does.
Agreed.
I love you in the context of loving you: I love you. I love you because you are a living, breathing, thinking, feeling, LOVING, human being created in the image of God. And I care about you. I do not want you to suffer, or to feel pain, or to feel lonely or unloved.
We all suffer at some point in our life. Suffering and pain is inevitable. Life would be very boring without some amount of pain or suffering. Imagine if life was all just a smooth ride. How boring it would be.
I do not feel lonely or unloved at all. I have many strong connections with family and friends and feel very loved and close to them. But thanks.
I want you, my fellow human being, to experience joy, and happiness, and love, and communion with God!
I experience joy and happiness and love without God. But thanks, anyway.
I want to spend eternity with you, rejoicing together in the presence of Jesus. I love you!
Yeah, Ill pass on that.
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SF1900, would you really pass on eternal life in Heaven with Jesus Christ.. or are you just saying that because you don't believe in it?
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SF1900, would you really pass on eternal life in Heaven with Jesus Christ.. or are you just saying that because you don't believe in it?
Its an impossible question to answer. Thats assuming that a God exists. I can't answer that question because I do know if there is a God or not. If I die and I am faced with a "God" of some sort, then I will face that conflict when it is time. And when that time does come, I sure do have a lot of questions for this "God" that would perhaps help me decide where I want to go. Plus, it would also depend what God I am faced with. Whether its the Judeo-Christian God or Allah. Or perhaps its Thor or Zeus.
Anyway, thats like asking you, "If you found out tomorrow that there is 100% no God, would you reject your religion and faith?" To answer this question, you would need to suspend all of your beliefs and faith and assume you've been wrong. However, you cannot conceive that a God does not exist because in your eyes, all evidence points that he does. So, it would probably be impossible for you to answer that question, until you die and your faced with the Truth.
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Its an impossible question to answer. Thats assuming that a God exists. I can't answer that question because I do know if there is a God or not. If I die and I am faced with a "God" of some sort, then I will face that conflict when it is time. And when that time does come, I sure do have a lot of questions for this "God" that would perhaps help me decide where I want to go. Plus, it would also depend what God I am faced with. Whether its the Judeo-Christian God or Allah. Or perhaps its Thor or Zeus.
Anyway, thats like asking you, "If you found out tomorrow that there is 100% no God, would you reject your religion and faith?" To answer this question, you would need to suspend all of your beliefs and faith and assume you've been wrong. However, you cannot conceive that a God does not exist because in your eyes, all evidence points that he does. So, it would probably be impossible for you to answer that question, until you die and your faced with the Truth.
I can answer your question, in fact. If I found out that there was no God, then I would absolutely reject my faith!
(that would be a very sad day)
If you were to meet Jesus face-to-face, what specific questions would you ask Him (assuming He wanted you to serve God in Heaven with Him for eternity) ?
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I can answer your question, in fact. If I found out that there was no God, then I would absolutely reject my faith!
If you were to find out there was no God, what would be left of your faith to reject? Nothing.
If you were to meet Jesus face-to-face, what specific questions would you ask Him (assuming He wanted you to serve God in Heaven with Him for eternity) ?
"Are you able to convince me that your story is true and that you aren't completely insane? Please start at the beginning by offering a consistent, rational and useful definition of God that allows me to distinguish him from, say, a rock."
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ready to answer any of your questions my dear brethren...
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;D that is amazing lol
have a cup of coffee with Jesu :D