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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Natural Bodybuilding => Topic started by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 09:28:54 AM

Title: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 09:28:54 AM
Excessive drug use by strength athletes at the competitive level is widespread. Hardcore bodybuilders today are using sophisticated arrays of anabolic steroids along with human growth hormone, insulin, thyroid preparations, and intravenous diuretics, often in staggering dosages. The obvious health dangers associated with such practices have spawned a backlash movement called "natural bodybuilding." But while avoiding these potentially hazardous drug practices is a sensible idea, and one that we strongly recommend, the concept of hardcore "natural bodybuilding" today is virtually an oxymoron and seriously flawed.

Modern Bodybuilding as a Concept

Physical enhancement through exercise probably began as a means toward better strength and fitness in prehistoric times. Strengthening the skeletal muscles meant increasing one’s physical abilities and chances of survival. At some point, however, the notion arose that improved physical appearance could be achieved through such efforts. In conjunction with proper diet, these exercises – performed against vigorous resistance – could improve the size and shape of the muscles. The overall physical form could be enhanced by engaging in specific exercises targeting the various muscles of the body. A so-called "physical culture" developed in dedication to these pursuits, with goals largely unrelated to traditional athletic goals. The object of the efforts: bigger muscles simply for the sake of having them … and showing them. As simply explained by Charles Gaines in his book Pumping Iron (page 105), "the nature of bodybuilding competition is aesthetic rather than athletic."

Around the turn of the last century, contests comparing the physiques of the competitors were being staged in America. The era of modern competitive bodybuilding formally began in 1939, when the American Athletic Union assumed the regulation of physique contests by sponsoring state and regional competitions and eventually a national one: the Mr. America contest. Today, the Mr. Olympia contest is the top professional competition for elite level bodybuilders.

Through the years, with the development of more sophisticated training methods and equipment and more scientific dietary and supplementation practices, there has been a gradual progression of professional bodybuilding standards of muscle size and conditioning. Even at the amateur competition level, the mass and definition of today’s high-placing athletes would have been incomprehensible just two decades ago. In gyms across the country now, it is not uncommon to see numerous hardcore noncompetitive bodybuilders weighing in excess of 230 pounds – a situation that did not exist a few years ago. It is highly likely that the standards of success in bodybuilding will continue to rise.

While successful bodybuilding involves the use of proper exercise and nutrition, it also relies on genetic factors generally beyond human control. Individuals born with favorable muscle shapes and strong propensities for the acquisition of muscle mass are more likely to excel in the sport. But whatever one’s natural aptitude, the ultimate goal of bodybuilding training is to overrule nature by sheer force of human will. The typical hardgainer engages in daily combat against the genetic limitations of the body, forcing it to abort its natural directives, abandoning, for example, the fourteen-inch arm that nature intended and adopting the eighteen-inch arm that the human desires. The female lifter sheds the bodyfat with which her body prefers to envelop itself and adopts instead an aesthetic based on hardness and power.

Modern Bodybuilding in Practice

The mechanics of modern bodybuilding involve the repetition ("reps") of contrived resistance-based movements over and over. Rep after rep, set and set, the hardcore bodybuilder subjects the muscles to sustained levels of stress non-existent anywhere else. Cams, pulleys and other complex machinery, invented to attack muscle kinetics from unique and unusual angles, are commonplace in gyms across the world. In some gyms, a backlash against the more "high tech" machines has resulted in a "back-to-basics" movement. Now personal trainers use free weights and Olympic-lifting-derived moves in aerobics classes, and encourage people in spinning classes to pretend they are actually sweating over real hills (the irony of jaded urbanites getting back to nature on their spinning bikes or on the "hill option" of their treadmills is inescapable). Yet despite claims of what is "natural" at present, the fact remains that bodybuilding involves a systematized manipulation of the physical body with a desire to transform it from its "raw" state.

The systematized manipulation of the body is further achieved through dietary methods. The typical bodybuilder’s diet is a highly regulated mix of ingredients, including far more protein and calories than are advisable for the general public. Most dietitians recommend less than 70 grams of protein per day. Hardcore bodybuilders consume at least one to one and a half grams per pound of body weight per day, with ordinary intakes of 200 or 300 grams per day or more. In fact, many bodybuilders actually count their grams of protein and otherwise carefully manipulate their daily food intake, rendering the entire concept of eating more one of function than of enjoyment. Many bodybuilders space their meals not according to natural hunger, but in order to achieve maximal protein absorption and assimilation.

Another component of the physical manipulation of the bodybuilder’s body is the ingestion of supplements. Most serious bodybuilders ingest large dosages ("megadoses") of many vitamins and minerals. These quantities vastly exceed the amounts that could be ingested by normal eating. Additionally, it is common practice to consume a variety of herbs and over-the-counter products designed for enhanced sports performance, such as creatine monohydrate. Many of these items would be found in greatly diminished amounts -- or not at all -- in the normal contemporary diet.

What is "Natural"?

The word natural is derived from the Latin word "naturalis," meaning "by birth." In other words, it connotes the state or condition that nature originally intended, as when one was born. (Interestingly, today we refer to delivering a baby without technological/pharmaceutical assistance by the linguistic redundancy of "natural child birth.") In this sense, none of us can ever be in a natural state. From the moment that we are fed, clothed and taught to use language, we become implicated in "culture."

From an anthropological perspective, the word "natural" today conjures up nostalgia-tinted images of a bucolic and pre-civilized state of humanity in which people lived according to the whims of instinct rather than the sterner dictates of rational consciousness. The image of the "noble savage," primitive and unsullied by cultural corruption, leaps to mind. We think of Tarzan of the Apes, the Native American warrior, or Conan the Barbarian. "Nature," in this context, is conceived of as part of a binary (two-part combination of mutually exclusive opposites) with "culture." But it must be noted that historically, "natural" has invoked either positive or negative connotations depending upon the existing philosophical thoughts. For example, the anthropologist Levi-Strauss' famous study of "the raw" (nature) and "the cooked" (culture) positioned nature and culture firmly in binary opposition. As culture suppresses nature, so-called civilization (itself a heavily weighted notion) suppresses the baser desires of human beings. Thus, "nature" stands for everything that is chaotic, unformed, and uncontrolled. In this early twentieth-century context, culture was given preference and seen as a positive attribute.

Many people have argued that culture and civilization exist precisely for the purpose of containing humans' potentially uncontrolled natural impulses, and that as history progresses, cultural and social institutions become increasingly effective at regulating people's bodies and intellects. Michel Foucault, for example, argued in Discipline and Punish that the criminal justice system evolved as a way of producing docile citizens who would respond to regimented systems of discipline, both within the penal institutions and as workers in the industrial revolution. Others have suggested that the way in which "culture" and "nature" are construed in relation to one another enabled the promotion of particular political ideologies such as European expansionism and colonialism. The successful spread of Western civilization was founded upon the conquering and/or annihilation of more primitive societies. The nature-culture argument was also used to deny women a role in political and economic affairs: the male-dominated public sphere of the marketplace and government was likened to a jungle in which nature, red in tooth and claw, threatened to consume the delicate sensibilities of the more refined "fairer sex," who should direct their attentions more appropriately to civilizing their children and husbands. Thus the distinction between what is natural and what is cultural has long been under dispute, and has long been implicated, in diverse ways, in a variety of social practices and ideologies.

The notion of "natural" has been taken up recently in a variety of forms, and unlike in the model of Levi-Strauss, has been assigned a positive status. Sociobiology and evolutionary psychology, which first emerged in the 1970s and was heavily critiqued, is enjoying a resurgence of popular interest with its theories that use animal behavior and genetics to explain human behavior. New Age movements promote recapturing one's "natural element" and "natural magic." When "natural" is used to describe scenery, for example, it denotes that the beauty of the landscape is untouched by human design. When it is used to describe food, it connotes that the item is wholesome and pure, devoid of chemicals or additives. Advocates of healthy eating have recently espoused "eat like a caveman" theories in books such as NeanderThin and various other "Paleolithic diet" publications (my personal favorite is Starch Madness, apparently written with the same breathless technological-civilization-has-gone-mad tone as 1950s B-movies), as well as supplementation of phytonutrients and nutraceuticals touted as "natural" preventive cures for the rigors of the modern world. Increasingly, the civilized technological world, once seen as humankind's salvation (remember all those fantasies about flying cars?) is viewed as a source of stress, disease, and discontent (see, for example, the manifesto of the Unabomber). In this context, "natural" forms a binary with "artificial," "fake," or "technological." Implicit in this highly positive paradigm is the absence of any human-constructed changes or improvements, which are deemed bad.

When we talk about the idea of "natural" as applied to the human body, we tend to mean the absence of artificial or synthetic alterations. As an extreme example, a woman with breast implants would not be regarded as having a natural chest (although conversely, female bodybuilders are often criticized as "unnatural" if they don't get implants, even frankly fake ones). However, body practices which go against cultural norms are also seen as "unnatural". One example of this is decorative scarification; a scar is a very natural physiological formation, but when done in Western culture for the purposes of decoration, is seen as abnormal. What is "natural," then, does not exist independently of culture but rather depends on it for its definition. "Natural" these days is often synonymous with "normal," so we must be cautious about which social norms we are promoting when we laud the ideal of naturalness.

But the principles underlying the binary are not nearly so simple. A fertile area for examination can be found on the shelves of our local health food stores. For starters, the idea that so-called "natural" foods are devoid of chemicals is totally fallacious. All foods, "health foods" included, are composed entirely of chemicals, and often many different ones at that. So is the human body! Moreover, just because a food is free of artificial additives doesn’t necessarily make it healthy for us to eat. Many "natural" food substances, such as palm and coconut oils and even good ol’ sugar, have been linked to health dangers.

As can be seen, the concept of "natural" is quite complex, and becomes even more perplexing when abutted against the concept of "bodybuilding."

Natural and Bodybuilding – Concepts in Conflict

The many health supplements sold by health food stores raise other interesting issues, further complicating the evaluation of what is "natural." Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is sold as a natural food supplement. But is it "natural" to ingest Vitamin C not by the ingestion of various fruits and foods, but by swallowing it whole in processed tablet form? Further, how can anyone argue that it’s "natural" to take two, four or even more grams of Vitamin C daily – so-called "megadoses" – when nobody could possibly consume such quantities by eating food? Another example is creatine monohydrate, a substance that has recently been widely marketed as a supplement for building muscle. Red meat contains small quantities of creatine. But is it "natural" to consume five, ten or (during so-called "loading phases") up to a whopping thirty grams of creatine daily, when such amounts could only be consumed through artificially manufactured products? And yet, these wildly "un-natural" quantities are routinely consumed by many so-called "natural" athletes.

These "natural" athletes have convinced themselves that such extreme dietary supplement practices are perfectly natural, but for years have drawn a bright line to distinguish the difference between natural and non-natural athletes: the use of supplemental androgens. All supplemental androgens, including anabolic steroids, are derivatives of testosterone, a naturally-occurring hormone in both men and women. But unlike the athlete taking Vitamin C capsules or creatine powder to enhance his performance, one taking supplemental testosterone tablets is no longer considered "natural" and one taking supplemental testosterone injections is even less natural. (Ironically, the more hazardous anabolic steroids are orally ingested.)

Of course, the increased popularity of recently hyped products has further complicated the picture. Herbs, such as yohimbe and tribulus terrestris, can reputedly increase natural testosterone levels. The desired effect -- increased serum levels of male hormone -- is the same as with anabolic steroids. Yet the so-called natural athletes using these products seem oblivious to the hypocrisy. Even more troubling is the whole new class of supplements known as prohormones, such as androstenedione (andro), promoted as a natural alternative to steroids. While these substances are but one tiny molecular step away from testosterone, they can be readily converted into testosterone by the human body. Again, the effect -- increased serum levels of male hormone -- is the same as with anabolic steroids. Some have tried to argue that the difference is that these substances are legal, while steroids are not. Of course, that is not entirely true, as steroids are legal if prescribed for a legitimate medical condition. Further, we must recognize the arbitrariness of the laws – in some countries, steroids are legally available over-the-counter, while in others even creatine is banned! Most significant of all, President Clinton’s top drug policy adviser has recently renewed his vow to have andro classified as an anabolic steroid as quickly as possible. If he’s right -- that andro is and has always been an anabolic steroid -- haven’t all athletes who’ve ever tried it forfeited their "natural" status? Or do they exist in some gray area in between?

Some natural athletes cite the amounts of supplemental administration as relevant to the issue. Of course, this raises a lot of issues, such as whether an athlete with low or low-normal range testosterone levels who brings his levels up to high-normal range (or even to just mid-normal range), but not beyond, is "unnatural." To further complicate the picture, what if testosterone supplementation is lawfully and medically prescribed, such as in the case of the aging athlete whose endogenous levels have declined and who is restored to normal levels by hormonal supplementation? Can such an athlete still call himself natural? If so, what if the lawful dose administered restores higher serum testosterone levels than would be normal for a man his age -- i.e., a fifty-year-old athlete who now has a twenty-year-old’s testosterone levels?

Conclusion

Bodybuilding is, in its method and ideals, a contradictory practice. Bodybuilding both enhances and diminishes health – it increases bodyweight, the wear and tear on joints, and the risk of both chronic and acute injuries. It relies on a highly regimented nutritional intake in terms of food choice and caloric allowance. In terms of psychic health, it rewards its practitioners with increased self-esteem, self-discipline, and self-empowerment, but can also be driven by insecurity, shame over weakness, and for men, a desire to live up to a particular masculine ideal. The famous "muscle dysmorphia" study in Psychosomatics (1997) produced media hysteria over men obsessively scrutinizing their bodies (and subsequent mockery by many serious lifters who argued that there was no such thing as too big and people who said so were just jealous pencilnecks), but after hacking through the hype on both sides, it seems evident that some mental and emotional ambivalence is frequently at work when people strive to improve their physiques. The argument to be made here is that bodybuilding is not one thing or the other, but that it blurs facile categories of healthy/unhealthy, weakness/strength, and so forth, so that to label it one thing or the other is to miss the point. Bodybuilding is all of these things at once, in constant tension with itself. It is both natural and cultural. In the case of hardcore competitive bodybuilding, however, it is difficult to argue that anything about the sport is natural. It is, almost by definition, unnatural. While the safety risks of chemical enhancement rampant at today’s elite level is regrettable, the line between hardcore natural and unnatural bodybuilders is quite fuzzy.


by Rick Collins JD (http://www.steroidlaw.com/) and
Krista Scott-Dixon (http://www.stumptuous.com/)

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/collins/natural-bodybuilding.htm



Comments?
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 23, 2006, 09:55:39 AM
Hmmm.....this is similar to a topic me and Jenn have been debating about that last few days. 

We can even break down this further, what qualifies someone as a bodybuilder in general?  Do they have to compete?  Do they have to diet?  Do they have to bulk?  Do they have to train every bodypart?  Do they have to take supplements?

Discuss.....
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 10:53:24 AM
Hmmm.....this is similar to a topic me and Jenn have been debating about that last few days. 

We can even break down this further, what qualifies someone as a bodybuilder in general?  Do they have to compete?  Do they have to diet?  Do they have to bulk?  Do they have to train every bodypart?  Do they have to take supplements?

Discuss.....


Don't try to change the subject...
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 23, 2006, 11:23:37 AM

Don't try to change the subject...

Not trying to change the subject Johnny, just adding another view....
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 23, 2006, 11:38:44 AM
The "subject" is already almost too broad.  Basically you could break it into the easiest terms possible and say that no one and nothing human is nature.  If you were born in a hospital, put in an incubator, given any medicines/antibiotics, ever eaten any food that you didn't grow.  Well hell, if you are using pesticides then maybe even food you grow isn't natural.  Shot lets take it a step further, do you cut your hair or shave-well then folks you aren't natural either.  

If we are comparing natural and, for lack of a better word, "enhanced" athletes why don't we look at the future to find our answer of what is natural and not natural.  If I take creatine or protein or vitamins my body will use what it can, dispose of the rest and really the functioning of my body does not change.  Now if I take steroids, my testesterone development will slow and stop and will rely on this supplement to manufacture more so I can function properly.  In females more then males the effects of taking steroids may last a lifetime-deeper voice, change in appearance as well as my hormone development being screwed with.  There is a difference between the two.  Obviously this argument will not hold up with every banned substance, but I would like to believe that substances are banned for the sake of the competitor (I'm sure I'll have quite a few of you yelling at me for this) but naive little me thinks that the majority of substances get banned because they are harmful to your body, addictive or change your chemical makeup.



Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 11:47:23 AM
Not trying to change the subject Johnny, just adding another view....


You're trying to change it from Natural Bodybuilding being an oxymoron to "What is bodybuilding?"

I think we should discuss natural bodybuilding being an oxymoron before touching on what "bodybuilding" is to begin with.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 23, 2006, 12:07:57 PM

You're trying to change it from Natural Bodybuilding being an oxymoron to "What is bodybuilding?"

I think we should discuss natural bodybuilding being an oxymoron before touching on what "bodybuilding" is to begin with.

Fair enough...........

I think it's more simple than we think, in my opinion.  To me a natural bodybuilder can be someone who doesn't take any type of supplementation whatsoever.  They may take their protein supplements, that may be the extent of it.  The basic form.  They are interested in manipulizing the size of their body by increasing muscle definition and size to their desires.  This could be  Mens Health type build, or it could be Hardcore Musclemag type.  I use the term more loosely that others that I know, but thats just my view. 

Your body will always adapt to the elements that you throw at it.  So naturally if you lift weights or even lay brick for that matter, you will tear down and rebuild muscle fibers which will increase muscle growth in the muscles you are using.  In my view supplements are resources, and to the extreme that you use those resources will determine how quickly you will build muscle.

So is Natural Bodybuilding an oxymoron.  IMO I don't think it is.

I think it is the means by which someone aspires to build their body.       
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 12:14:43 PM
The "subject" is already almost too broad.  Basically you could break it into the easiest terms possible and say that no one and nothing human is nature.  If you were born in a hospital, put in an incubator, given any medicines/antibiotics, ever eaten any food that you didn't grow.  Well hell, if you are using pesticides then maybe even food you grow isn't natural.  Shot lets take it a step further, do you cut your hair or shave-well then folks you aren't natural either.  

If we are comparing natural and, for lack of a better word, "enhanced" athletes why don't we look at the future to find our answer of what is natural and not natural.  If I take creatine or protein or vitamins my body will use what it can, dispose of the rest and really the functioning of my body does not change.  Now if I take steroids, my testesterone development will slow and stop and will rely on this supplement to manufacture more so I can function properly.  In females more then males the effects of taking steroids may last a lifetime-deeper voice, change in appearance as well as my hormone development being screwed with.  There is a difference between the two.  Obviously this argument will not hold up with every banned substance, but I would like to believe that substances are banned for the sake of the competitor (I'm sure I'll have quite a few of you yelling at me for this) but naive little me thinks that the majority of substances get banned because they are harmful to your body, addictive or change your chemical makeup.

There IS a difference between Anabolic Steroids and OTC supplements but that difference doesn't make one natural and the other not. Nowhere in the definition does it exclude "Things that don't change your cheical makeup"..Not that creatine doens't change the way your body functions!


And absolutely not..Substances do NOT get banned for the "good of the people". If that were true Alcohol would be illegal and marijuana legal since alcohol kills THOUSANDS of people every year and marijuana has not killed anyone...Ever!
Anabolic steroids are ALOT safer than tobacco or alcohol as a matter of a fact. They don't even fit the criteria for a substance to be scheduled..The DEA and the AMA both opposed steroids being banned..But the idiotic politicans did it anyway!
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 23, 2006, 12:18:33 PM
Fair enough...........

I think it's more simple than we think, in my opinion.  To me a natural bodybuilder can be someone who doesn't take any type of supplementation whatsoever.  They may take their protein supplements, that may be the extent of it.  The basic form.  They are interested in manipulizing the size of their body by increasing muscle definition and size to their desires.  This could be  Mens Health type build, or it could be Hardcore Musclemag type.  I use the term more loosely that others that I know, but thats just my view. 

Your body will always adapt to the elements that you throw at it.  So naturally if you lift weights or even lay brick for that matter, you will tear down and rebuild muscle fibers which will increase muscle growth in the muscles you are using.  In my view supplements are resources, and to the extreme that you use those resources will determine how quickly you will build muscle.

So is Natural Bodybuilding an oxymoron.  IMO I don't think it is.

I think it is the means by which someone aspires to build their body.       

However lifting barbells or dumbells isn't a natural thing. Nowhere in nature do these things naturally form. They are constructed by humans making them unnatural.

Also unless supplements occur in nature as they are(Non synthetic and non purified) then they aren't natural either.

The line between "natural" and "not natural" is extremly fuzzy.

If you had read the article..You would know that in the distant past people viewed weight lifting as unnatural! Many still do today! I often hear people say "Yes but my muscles are all natural,I don't lift weights!" Many more consider supplements to be very unnatural as well!
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 23, 2006, 01:00:14 PM



And absolutely not..Substances do NOT get banned for the "good of the people". If that were true Alcohol would be illegal and marijuana legal since alcohol kills THOUSANDS of people every year and marijuana has not killed anyone...Ever!
Anabolic steroids are ALOT safer than tobacco or alcohol as a matter of a fact. They don't even fit the criteria for a substance to be scheduled..The DEA and the AMA both opposed steroids being banned..But the idiotic politicans did it anyway!
I knew I would get this response
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 23, 2006, 01:12:18 PM
However lifting barbells or dumbells isn't a natural thing. Nowhere in nature do these things naturally form. They are constructed by humans making them unnatural.

Also unless supplements occur in nature as they are(Non synthetic and non purified) then they aren't natural either.

The line between "natural" and "not natural" is extremly fuzzy.

If you had read the article..You would know that in the distant past people viewed weight lifting as unnatural! Many still do today! I often hear people say "Yes but my muscles are all natural,I don't lift weights!" Many more consider supplements to be very unnatural as well!

Yeah, I probably should have read the article.  I did read the first paragraph, and conclusion   ;D
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 23, 2006, 02:19:29 PM
Yeah, I probably should have read the article.  I did read the first paragraph, and conclusion   ;D

These long articles are hard to get through...like I said I felt it tried to be "smarter" then it really was and getting through the whole thing wasn't easy.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 24, 2006, 03:23:52 AM
I knew I would get this response


Of course...Because it's TRUE.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 24, 2006, 06:56:33 AM
After reading the WHOLE thing........if you apply the standards used what in the world would be natural?  Is evolution natural?
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 24, 2006, 10:14:09 AM
After reading the WHOLE thing........if you apply the standards used what in the world would be natural?  Is evolution natural?


I suppose. Nature is natural obviously. Random mutations are natural....So i'd say Evolution is natural.

Going by the definition of "natural" meaning "From birth" I would say that no human can be "natural" since everything they do is due to their environment.


I agree with the conclusion...

Quote
The argument to be made here is that bodybuilding is not one thing or the other, but that it blurs facile categories of healthy/unhealthy, weakness/strength, and so forth, so that to label it one thing or the other is to miss the point. Bodybuilding is all of these things at once, in constant tension with itself. It is both natural and cultural. In the case of hardcore competitive bodybuilding, however, it is difficult to argue that anything about the sport is natural. It is, almost by definition, unnatural. While the safety risks of chemical enhancement rampant at today’s elite level is regrettable, the line between hardcore natural and unnatural bodybuilders is quite fuzzy.


I say that there is no "absolutely natural" since it is an extremly ambigious term among people and bodybuilders alike. Bodybuilding in and of itself is not "natural" by any stretch of the imagination considering the regimented diet and exercise would never occur in nature. Bodybuilding+consuming supplements is even less natural since none of these supplements in their synthetic purified form would ever occur naturally. People consuming 10-15grams of creatine a day are not "natural" since no one would possibly be able to consume that much creatine from food alone in nature.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 24, 2006, 10:30:18 AM

I


I say that there is no "absolutely natural" since it is an extremly ambigious term among people and bodybuilders alike. Bodybuilding in and of itself is not "natural" by any stretch of the imagination considering the regimented diet and exercise would never occur in nature. Bodybuilding+consuming supplements is even less natural since none of these supplements in their synthetic purified form would ever occur naturally. People consuming 10-15grams of creatine a day are not "natural" since no one would possibly be able to consume that much creatine from food alone in nature.

So could I be a "natural" bodybuilder if I ate McDonald's fries all day?  I mean all that saturated fat isn't natural either.  Creatine is found naturally in meats whereas steroids and other drugs that are banned are not found naturally, there is a difference for you.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 24, 2006, 11:02:30 AM
I would say that there is nothing unnatural about steroids, or lazers, or nukes, all of these things are created by an animal and are just as natural as a beaver dam or an ant hill.

That being said it might make more sense to say that natural bodybuilders are "exogenous hormone free" but this is not quite as euphonious.

-sS
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 24, 2006, 01:07:09 PM
So could I be a "natural" bodybuilder if I ate McDonald's fries all day?  I mean all that saturated fat isn't natural either.  Creatine is found naturally in meats whereas steroids and other drugs that are banned are not found naturally, there is a difference for you.


Did you even read the Article? Creatine is found in meats but nowhere near as much as you would get in creatine supplements. The creatine found in meats isn't the same as the synthetic purified creatine in supplements.

Also in many countries Anabolic Steroids aren't banned. So I guess someone using Steroids in say Mexico is a natural? Hmm
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 24, 2006, 01:46:55 PM
So what are you getting at?  Whats your point in essence?  You said you agree witht he conclusion of the article, "that there is a fuzzy line between natural and unnatrual"?
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 24, 2006, 02:01:22 PM
His ultimate objective is to provoke people.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Oliver Klaushof on March 24, 2006, 03:17:01 PM
His ultimate objective is to provoke people.

Yep. This whole thread is filled with retarded semantics.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: brianX on March 24, 2006, 04:29:03 PM
Straw man argument. "Natural" in bodybuilding circles simply means you've never used steroids. Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 25, 2006, 04:56:51 AM
Straw man argument. "Natural" in bodybuilding circles simply means you've never used steroids. Nothing more, nothing less.


Do you even know what a "Straw man" argument is? Even if my argument is wrong..Which it isn't, It's not a "Strawman argument" A strawman argument is where I change your argument to something else to fit my point.

Secondly..It's irrelevant what "natural" means in "Bodybuilding circles". Nowhere in the definition of "natural" does it fit the definition you use it as. Nowhere does "natural" say "Without steroids".


My point is this..."Natural" is an ambigious and fuzzy term. Everyone's idea of "natural" is different as i've pointed out. Criticizing someone for using steroids and not being "natural" is hypocritical considering you could easly be called non natural for slimply taking food supplements or lifting weights or anything of the like.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: brianX on March 25, 2006, 09:06:34 AM
Natural bodybuilding simply means you bodybuild without the use steroids. There is nothing contradictory or oxymoronic about that.

It's a straw man argument because you're using a literal interpretation of the word "natural" which is irrelevant in the context of bodybuilding.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 25, 2006, 09:09:02 AM
Natural bodybuilding simply means you bodybuild without the use steroids. There is nothing contradictory or oxymoronic about that.

It's a straw man argument because you're using a literal interpretation of the word "natural" which is irrelevant in the context of bodybuilding.


I'm defining the word "natural" and adding "bodybuilding" and demonstrating how it doesn't go together. You can't just say "natural bodybuilding" means something different than "natural"+"Bodybuilding"..Nor can you invent your own definitions to fit your argument. What i'm doing isn't a strawman in any sense of the definition of "strawman".

Did you even read the article before you posted your comments? Doesn't look like you did.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: brianX on March 25, 2006, 09:34:02 AM
The "natural" in "natural bodybuilding" is really a reference to natural hormone levels. Creatine or protein power will not radically change serum hormone levels, hence they are not unnatural in the bodybuilding sense.

I don't agree with some of your other points, either. Lifting weights is not "unnatural". Humans have been building up their muscles through manual labor for many thousands of years. There is even evidence that the ancient Greeks engaged in weight training. People have only been injecting synthetic hormones into their ass since the 1960's. Steroid bodybuilding was only made possible once the knowledge of steroid chemistry reached an advanced state.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 25, 2006, 09:56:33 AM
The "natural" in "natural bodybuilding" is really a reference to natural hormone levels.

According to whom?


I don't agree with some of your other points, either. Lifting weights is not "unnatural". Humans have been building up their muscles through manual labor for many thousands of years. There is even evidence that the ancient Greeks engaged in weight training. People have only been injecting synthetic hormones into their ass since the 1960's. Steroid bodybuilding was only made possible once the knowledge of steroid chemistry reached an advanced state.

It doesn't matter how far back weight lifting goes...Unless it occurs naturally in nature it can't be called "natural". Where do dumbells and barbells occur in nature? Nowhere. Thus they can't be called "natural".
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 25, 2006, 11:52:22 AM
they occur in nature right here and now.  They are one of the tools we humans use.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 26, 2006, 10:05:00 AM
they occur in nature right here and now.  They are one of the tools we humans use.



By the strictest definition, If they are human created they can't be called "natural".
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 26, 2006, 04:37:45 PM
Fine you win...whatever-so I will continue to be a "natural bodybuilder" by only doing sit-ups, wall sits and push ups.  Maybe if I find a good branch outside I can do some pull ups too ::)
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 27, 2006, 04:58:45 AM
Fine you win...whatever-so I will continue to be a "natural bodybuilder" by only doing sit-ups, wall sits and push ups.  Maybe if I find a good branch outside I can do some pull ups too ::)


Or you can stop calling yourself a "Natural bodybuilder" and start just refering to yourself as a "Bodybuilder who does not use steroids".
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 27, 2006, 08:20:19 AM
Fine you win...whatever-so I will continue to be a "natural bodybuilder" by only doing sit-ups, wall sits and push ups.  Maybe if I find a good branch outside I can do some pull ups too ::)

Wow, he didn't say none of that is natural because it's not done in nature.  I have never seen an ape (not that I'm referring you to as an ape  ;D) doing situps or pushups on the discovery channel.  Well, maybe they do, maybe it's just not documented.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: GET_BIGGER on March 27, 2006, 08:24:02 AM
According to whom?


It's a "universal label", it's common knowledge. 
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 27, 2006, 08:48:56 AM
It's a "universal label", it's common knowledge. 


No..Bodybuilders who don't take steroids just like to label themselves "natural" in an attempt to sould purer or better than enhanced bodybuilders who use steroids. When in reality there isn't anything "natural" about what bodybuilders do..steroids or not.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 27, 2006, 09:00:55 AM
I move that we change the name of this board to "Bodybuilders who do not use steroids"  although that may make some steroid using bodybuilders angry since this also may indicate we are more pure and better then those who use.  How about Non-Enhanced Bodybuilders??? Though I didn't realize using steroids allowed you to be "enhanced!"

If you are trying to argue about word usage you may take a second look at the work "enhanced."  Since when does using an illegal substance enhance you????  The defintion of enhanced is to intensify or increase in value, quality or beauty...not everyone thinks a mass monster is "enhanced," please Johnny Apollo what are we to do????
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 27, 2006, 09:05:12 AM
I move that we change the name of this board to "Bodybuilders who do not use steroids"  although that may make some steroid using bodybuilders angry since this also may indicate we are more pure and better then those who use.  How about Non-Enhanced Bodybuilders??? Though I didn't realize using steroids allowed you to be "enhanced!"

If you are trying to argue about word usage you may take a second look at the work "enhanced."  Since when does using an illegal substance enhance you????  The defintion of enhanced is to intensify or increase in value, quality or beauty...not everyone thinks a mass monster is "enhanced," please Johnny Apollo what are we to do????


On the contrary using steroids does "enhance" you. It enhances muscle mass. Enhances protein synthesis. Enhances recovery. Enhances stamina...Ect..Ect.

Enhance just means "increase" and steroids increase the rate protein is synthesized, Steroids increase recovery time, Steroids increase muscle strength....


So yes...Anabolic Steroids enhance.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: The BEAST on March 27, 2006, 10:12:28 AM
But enhance is used almost always used as a positive (like the examples you gave) and steroids to do have all positive side effects.  Well, I suppose we could say it enhanced HER masculinity...it enhanced his chance of cardiovascular disease. 

It seems you are implying non-steroid using athletes are inferior then those enhanced ones...you'll enjoy this article given to me by another member.
http://www.thebrushback.com/pussies_full.htm
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 27, 2006, 10:39:49 AM
But enhance is used almost always used as a positive (like the examples you gave) and steroids to do have all positive side effects.  Well, I suppose we could say it enhanced HER masculinity...it enhanced his chance of cardiovascular disease. 

It seems you are implying non-steroid using athletes are inferior then those enhanced ones...you'll enjoy this article given to me by another member.
http://www.thebrushback.com/pussies_full.htm

You don't seem to know anything about Anabolic Steroids. If used correctly the effects are ALL positive. You can prevent side effects from appearing by cycling correctly and using proper post cycle therapy.

Strength gain
Muscle gain
Faster recovery time
Increased apetite
Sense of well being
More energy
More motivation
Faster protein synthesis


These are negative side effects? I think NOT.

If used correctly the ONLY side effects that are even notable(Not even that common) are..

Acne
Temporary breast tenderness
Mild mood swings
Increased cholesterol count
Higher blood pressure

That's about it as far as proven immediate side effects go when cycling correctly and using proper PCT(Cycling "correctly" means no women or children)..ALL of which are temporary..ALL of which can be reduced by cycling correctly and all of which are fairly rare among steroid users.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: MCWAY on March 28, 2006, 01:08:44 AM

No..Bodybuilders who don't take steroids just like to label themselves "natural" in an attempt to sould purer or better than enhanced bodybuilders who use steroids. When in reality there isn't anything "natural" about what bodybuilders do..steroids or not.

As I said, the last time you and Robocop engaged in this pitiful whinefest, If you're so convinced that you must use roids to get the physique you desire, use them and quit blubbering about it; or find a way to get big without them.

Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: gcb on March 28, 2006, 06:25:41 AM

By the strictest definition, If they are human created they can't be called "natural".

You're being very pedantic - I mean I could say sitting at a keyboard reading decoded binary data coming
from a remote server is not very natural. Sure dumbbells and barbells don't occur in nature but it has been
in mans nature to train and improve himself both physically and mentally for as far back as we can remember
- bodybuilding is just a specific manifestation of this. The fact that specific tools have been created for this
purpose does not make it less natural.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 28, 2006, 06:32:02 AM
As I said, the last time you and Robocop engaged in this pitiful whinefest, If you're so convinced that you must use roids to get the physique you desire, use them and quit blubbering about it; or find a way to get big without them.




It depends on the "Physique you desire". You can get to a point naturally but if you desire more...
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 28, 2006, 09:41:50 AM
I don't like your definition of natural.  Why should fusion and black holes be considered natural phenomenon while an iron dumbell is considered unnatural just because it is created by a hairless ape.  I don't think there is a meaningful distinction to be found between natural and unnatural, as there is between natural and supernatural/imaginary.

-sS
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 28, 2006, 10:04:32 AM
I don't like your definition of natural.  Why should fusion and black holes be considered natural phenomenon while an iron dumbell is considered unnatural just because it is created by a hairless ape.  I don't think there is a meaningful distinction to be found between natural and unnatural, as there is between natural and supernatural/imaginary.

-sS


That's my point. "Natural" is ambigious.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 28, 2006, 12:14:48 PM
ok we are basically in agreement here that the line between natural and unnatural is arbitrary.  Where we disagree is that you think that weight lifting and steroids should both be considered unnatural whereas I think they are both natural. 

From your posts I take it that you are not natural.  How long did you lift before you got on teh juice?

I tend to think that talk of building a natural base is bollocks.  If you want to get super big I think the best bet is get on as soon as possible.  it takes many years of juicing full steam ahead to get huge.

That being said, it's not important enough for me to get huge to risk the sides (I'm prone to acne, only got it under control with the help of accutane) and have baldness in my family so I might start really losing hair if I tried it.  I'm also reluctant to mess with my cholesteral and liver chemistry.

So until the myostatin blocking antibody's are availible and proven safe I will have to settle for looking like an average joe.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on March 28, 2006, 05:28:06 PM
ok we are basically in agreement here that the line between natural and unnatural is arbitrary.  Where we disagree is that you think that weight lifting and steroids should both be considered unnatural whereas I think they are both natural. 

From your posts I take it that you are not natural.  How long did you lift before you got on teh juice?

I tend to think that talk of building a natural base is bollocks.  If you want to get super big I think the best bet is get on as soon as possible.  it takes many years of juicing full steam ahead to get huge.

That being said, it's not important enough for me to get huge to risk the sides (I'm prone to acne, only got it under control with the help of accutane) and have baldness in my family so I might start really losing hair if I tried it.  I'm also reluctant to mess with my cholesteral and liver chemistry.

So until the myostatin blocking antibody's are availible and proven safe I will have to settle for looking like an average joe.


1.I've never used steroids myself.

2.I strongly disagree as far as the "natural base" goes. I say that you need atleast 8 years of good training before you should ever use anabolic steroids(And be over 18 years old).

3.We aren't in disagreement as far as the natural/unnatural thing goes.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: shiftedShapes on March 28, 2006, 06:40:05 PM

2.I strongly disagree as far as the "natural base" goes. I say that you need atleast 8 years of good training before you should ever use anabolic steroids(And be over 18 years old).

From looking at most of the pics of the pros it seems like they get on juice in their teens or early 20's.  You gain faster on roids then off them, sp it just seems like a better way to get big.  I know people say receptors burn out after a while but I think that the palumbo, kovacs, nasser look is more a result of too much eating, GH, and Slin.  Look at guys like Dave Drapper, who has probably been on some kind of exogenous hormones for 40 years and he still looks awesome.

Then there is the argument that without a natural base you are more likely to grow too fast and muscle gains will outpace tendon strength increasing the chances of injury.  I think that this could be avoided with conservative progression and a solid background as a natural (no way that 8 years is necessary though, 2-3 of serious training should be plenty). 

To some extent I think that talk of the natural base is just another way for pro BBs to claim that their results are not all caused by sauce.

-sS
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Dos Equis on April 15, 2006, 11:49:52 AM
Straw man argument. "Natural" in bodybuilding circles simply means you've never used steroids. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree.  It's that simple. 
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on April 15, 2006, 12:01:58 PM
I agree.  It's that simple. 


But bodybuilding circles don't define the word "natural". Natural is defined by common usage which is in the dictionary. Nowhere in the definition of "natural" in any reputable dictionary does it say "not using anabolic steroids". You can't just make up your own definitions to words to fit your argument.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Dos Equis on April 15, 2006, 12:58:10 PM

But bodybuilding circles don't define the word "natural". Natural is defined by common usage which is in the dictionary. Nowhere in the definition of "natural" in any reputable dictionary does it say "not using anabolic steroids". You can't just make up your own definitions to words to fit your argument.

You can't just rely on dictionary definitions to fit your argument either.  I use the dictionary a lot, but there are connotative meanings too.  The connotative meaning of "natural bodybuilding" is "drug free." 
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on April 15, 2006, 02:48:17 PM
You can't just rely on dictionary definitions to fit your argument either.  I use the dictionary a lot, but there are connotative meanings too.  The connotative meaning of "natural bodybuilding" is "drug free." 


Well your "connotative" definition is hypocritical. That's what i'm pointing out. You say "natural" means "drug free". Why? Why does it mean drug free? How are steroids unnatural and synthetic chemicals like creatine natural? Creatine can be found in food, Occurs in the body..So what? That doesn't mean the synthetic purified form that is injested in supplements is natural. In fact every single definition of natural...Creatine would be unnatural!
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Dos Equis on April 15, 2006, 07:48:10 PM

Well your "connotative" definition is hypocritical. That's what i'm pointing out. You say "natural" means "drug free". Why? Why does it mean drug free? How are steroids unnatural and synthetic chemicals like creatine natural? Creatine can be found in food, Occurs in the body..So what? That doesn't mean the synthetic purified form that is injested in supplements is natural. In fact every single definition of natural...Creatine would be unnatural!


This is kind of a circular argument, but "natural" means drug free because drugs aren't involved.   :)  Not sure how else to say it. 

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think creatine is a synthetic chemical.  Sounds like you're putting nutritional supplements in the same category as steroids.  I don't think that argument works.   
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: Johnny Apollo on April 16, 2006, 07:58:53 AM
This is kind of a circular argument, but "natural" means drug free because drugs aren't involved.   :)  Not sure how else to say it. 

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think creatine is a synthetic chemical.  Sounds like you're putting nutritional supplements in the same category as steroids.  I don't think that argument works.   


The creatine powder you get is synthetic creatine constructed from the amino acids that make up creatine. It doesn't come from food. They synthesize the amino acids and then combine them into a powder for consumption.

I'm not compairing creatine to anabolic steroids. I'm just saying your definition of "natural" is hypocritical.
Title: Re: "Natural Bodybuilding" Modern Oxymoron?
Post by: AMNIMAL on May 11, 2006, 01:54:33 PM
Hmmm.....this is similar to a topic me and Jenn have been debating about that last few days. 

We can even break down this further, what qualifies someone as a bodybuilder in general?  Do they have to compete?  Do they have to diet?  Do they have to bulk?  Do they have to train every bodypart?  Do they have to take supplements?

Discuss.....

IMO...When I think of Bodybuilding...I think building a BETTER body than what you started with, no matter what your "starting point" is. Doesn't necessarily have to mean BIGGER body does it? Of course most of us (who call ourselves bodybuilders) HOPE our body gets bigger in the process of all our hours spent carefully planning and preparing our meals, busting our A$$es tossing around iron in the gym and then enduring the long periods of strict dieting to be able to get on stage and let all your hard work be recognized! Again...IMO I think bodybuilding is finishing with a better "product" than what you started of with. There is  such a big stereotype attached to the word BODYBUILDER. Definitely makes for some great debates ;D