If you have a case, send me some and I'll let you know if it works. 

its not going to hurt, but I pity the fool who pays money for this product. I still remember when Muscletech was trying to use this to compete with prohormones like 1-AD, etc. 

fiber fiber fiber.

Fiber will save me anytime I have a craving, especially at night. If I'm on a pretty severe calorie resriction, one or two tablespoons of cottage cheese followed by 10 grms of sugar-free metamucil will kill any craving every time. It has an impact stabilizing your bloodsugar too so its usually a good choice.

Thanks for the headsup, I would assume someone with half a brain knows that independent means...independent, ie: found on pub-med, JAMA, etc. I'm giving Jaguar the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure if there's something valid out there she has access to it....

natural

made the best gains eating everything I could but keeping the cardio moderately high. I believe you get a better benefit from higher energy turnover, an upped metabolism, and the generally excessive calories.

I'm also an ecto-meso, so that wouldn't work for some one with a naturally slow metabolism

easy there, I was humoring Havenbull, I've seen his Jaguar MO. 

Other than that, honestly Judi, I appreciate your responses, but condense, my God woman condense!!  I'll pick through this later, but instead of spending the time to write pages after page in response, find me a reference. All I need is at least one single study showing me that this organic carrier is superior. I understand you're analogy just fine. It makes sense, but not is there's no scientific basis. If you can support it, I'll look into running a month or 2 of Pro-Argi, if I can get a break on it. Hell I'll promote just as much as you! I'm not anti-jaguar supps at all, but there's way to much BS/overhyping in this industry, and between you and me your long-winded stories aren't selling anyone here.  I've heard the history, I've read the articles, now its time to show me the cold hard facts. Either there's something out there to support all these claims or there isn't.

This is why I turn down offers to do the whole Advocare/Amway/etc.. thing. People get so wrapped up in the flowery explainations for why their products are so much better than anything on the market with absolutely no reason to other than that's what they were brainwashed with by whoever signed them up for the "program"... Prove me wrong.

  Men's Health.

At least they're half right. Multi's are more of a longevity thing. If you're diet is balanced enough you can get away without using one, but if you BB/work out consistently then its more of a necessity either way.

My standards -

Vit. Shoppe - Men's formula multi
any brand Vit. C - 3 grms/day
Vit. Shoppe or NOW Fish oil
Metamucil - 10gms per day.

Optimum Gold Standard Whey or Scivation WPI

any mainstream creatine (except Muscletech).
I'm also using Cellmass CEE right now, it seems to work well, better than mono for me because I'm a non-responder, but its overpriced as hell. You can find bulk CEE for cheap on the web now, try
bulknutrition.com.

Personally I'd stay away from malto dextrin, post workout or otherwise. If you have to have a post-workout sugar, I would vote for dextrose powder.

5 on 2 off is always a good regime, but to be technical if you are getting any kind of change in test levels (that's a big if), and not just libido, you would want those to remain consitently high. I honestly don't think it makes that big of an impact on your test levels, so 5 on 2 off would be ok. I'd do 3 morning, and 3 pre workout (if you workout in the evening)

I think you mean, 1000mg of fish oil, and it recommends 3 daily on the bottle. The EPA/DHA amount is 120/180mg I believe, so essentially 300mg's of Omega 3's per cap. I would shoot for 2-3gms of the EPA/DHA a day, more than that an you risk some blood thinning, possible toxicity from metals, depending on the brand.

Sam's and Costco are both brands that have to meet certain standards because of the type of stores its being sold in, so you know you're actually getting what's on the label. I use the vitamin shoppe brand, its more concentrated (500mg of EPA/DHA total per cap), distilled, and has a small amount of vit. E. I don't believe the Costco kind has vit. E, but its not like its hard to supplement.

It could be kidney's. What suppl. are you on? People get indigestion in weird places too, since it happens after eating it could be anything from that to a strained muscle to a kidney problem. Best to suck it up and see a Doc.

I think the quality is fine, all tribulus products run the risk of not being as "concentrated" as you think. If you have one that doesn't work, you'll know in the first few days. If you're not up to Peter North standards after 3 days of it, then you probably got a crap bottle.

I would take a lot of it though, I think the bottle recommends around 1-2 caps per day, but I usually did 6-8. From what I've read about it, if its going to work at all for you, you need to be at at least 1500mg of the actual saponins to get a benefit, libido or otherwise.
1 cap = 625mg trib. at 40% saponins = 250mg of the true "extract" X 6 = 1500mg saponins.

Yep, especially from red wine. Its a catch 22 though, the sugar alcohol content of wine can have a more significant impact on BF levels than a couple shots of vodka or whatever. Red wine's great for 1 or 2, but if you're going out with the purpose of getting proper f*cked, then stick to a small amount of concentrated liquor - shots. Then follow the above advice regarding vit. C, protein, water, etc...

For me it was always the food that came along with the after-hours drinking, especially in college. Its not like I ever wake up in the middle of the night when I'm sober and say - hey, I think I'll go eat my bodyweight in tortillas and queso at Taco Cabana.    Make it a point to stick to the diet and prepare your damage control supps. ahead of time.

But of course, there's plenty of Jaguar pwning to go around. 

JamieX - the verdict's still out for me, but my purpose here is just to show people you don't have to spend @ssloads of $$$ on fancy NO/arginine supps, the regular stuff works just fine. I've been on it for @ 2 weeks now. So far I notice slightly more strength when taken with creatine, than taking creatine on its own in previous trials (ie, compared to the first two weeks of a creatine-only phase).

Tribex was always hit or miss for me. The first time I used it, nothing, the second, it worked ok. For all their talk about consistent trib levels, it didn't seem that way. Vitrix was one of my favorites, and suprisingly the cheap Optimum stuff worked just as well.

What metabolic pathway? The process in which the body uses the supplement is essentially the same every time. The metabolic pathway in which Arginine is broken down directly resulted in increase fertility and sperm motility, as demonstrated by this study. If you seem to think otherwise please show me an independent peer reviewed study that demonstrates this.


That's great, the only reference in there is to "L-arginine":

(from the article) "Dr. Pauling recommended a protocol of antioxidants, vitamin C, and amino acids (using L-arginine as the main amino acid)"

She used an amino acid combination. Period. Either your marketing people need to re-write that for product placement or the woman in the article was given free-form arginine, the same form used in the studies I cited above. I see no reference to super-duper glycocide arginine in the article at all. Furthermore - you even said so yourself - she developed this organic process after dealing with her recovery. Wonderful, if Arginine even played a part in her recovery, it was the free-form kind she was given in the hospital, not the Pro-Argi you're trying to sell.

Flatery gets you no where. I respect the fact you're trying to take the time to validate your claims, but so far you haven't offered anything specific to support your product. Show me a study that demonstrates the superiority of using glycosides as a "carrier molecule" specific to arginine vs. regular free form L-arginine.   

Well if anything I guess that book you just wrote is at leat something to get along with my $91 arginine 



Free radicals are produced from birth, they're simply a by-poduct of almost every internal system a human has. Likewise the body has just as many defenses against them. For God's sake, every time you breath the process in which your body utilizes oxygen produces free radicals. This is a natural process - do not make a leap from this to implying a cause for cancer.

Well while your "researching" your studies, feel free to take a look at these fee form arginine studies--

FYI, One take- away (among others) from these - "Subsequent studies have shown that L-arginine improves sperm count and motility. A recent small study credited L-arginine with producing pregnancies, but larger clinical trials are needed to confirm the efficacy seen in the early work. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adams MR, McCredie R, Jessup W, et al. Oral L-arginine improves endothelium-dependent dilatation and reduces monocyte adhesion to endothelial cells in young men with coronary artery disease. Atherosclerosis. 1997; 129:261-269.

Andres A, Morales JM, Praga M, et al. L-arginine reverses the antinatriuretic effect of cyclosporin in renal transplant patients. Nephrol Dial Transplant. 1997; 12:1437-1440.

Barbul A. Arginine: biochemistry, physiology, and therapeutic implications. JPEN. 1986; 10:227-238.

Barbul A, Sisto DA, Wasserkrug HL, Efron G. Arginine stimulates lymphocyte immune response in healthy human beings. Surgery. 1981; 90:244-251.

Bode-Boger SM, Boger RH, Galland A, et al. L-arginine-induced vasodilation in healthy humans: pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic relationship. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1998; 46:489-497.

Brandes RP, Brandes S, Boger RH, et al. L-Arginine supplementation in hypercholesterolemic rabbits normalizes leukocyte adhesion to non-endothelial matrix. Life Sci. 2000; 66:1519-1524.

Cartledge JJ, Davies A-M, Eardley I. A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover trial of the efficacy of L-arginine in the treatment of interstitial cystitis. BJU Int. 2000; 85:421-426.

Chan JS, Boger RH, Bode-Boger SM. Et al. Asymmetric dimethylarginine increases mononuclear cell adhesiveness in hypercholesterolemic humans. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2000; 20:1040-1046.

Chen J, Wollman Y, Chernichovsky T, et al. Effect of oral administration of high-dose nitric oxide donor L-arginine in men with organic erectile dysfunction: results of a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study. BJU Int. 1999; 83:269-273.

Clarkson P, Adams MR, Powe AJ, et al. Oral L-arginine improves endothelium-dependent dilation in hypercholesterolemic young adults. J Clin Invest. 1996; 97:1989-1994.

Cooke JP. Singer AH, Tsao P, et al. Antiatherogenic effects of L-arginine in the hypercholesterolemic rabbit. J Clin Invest. 1992; 90:1168-1172.

Griffith RS, DeLong DC, Nelson JD. Relation of arginine-lysine antagonism to herpes simplex growth in tissue culture. Chemotherapy. 1981; 27:209-213.

Hambrecht R, Hilbrich L, Erbs S, et al. Correction of endothelial dysfunction in chronic heart failure: additional effects of exercise training and oral L-arginine supplementation. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2000; 35:701-713.

Horton JW, White J, Maass D, Sanders B. Arginine in burn injury improves cardiac performance and prevents bacterial translocation. J Appl Physiol. 1998; 84:695-702.

Isidori A, Lo Monaco A, Cappa M. A study of growth hormone release in man after oral administration of amino acids. Current Med Res Opinion. 1981; 7:475-481.

Kapuler AM, Gurusiddiah S. The amino acids precursory to proteins are primary human food: proline, glutamine, and arginine found free in the juices of common vegetables and herbs. J Med Food. 1998; 1:97-115.

Korting GE, Smith SD, Wheeler MA, et al. A randomized double-blind trial of oral L-arginine for treatment of interstitial cystitis. J Urol. 1999; 161:558-565.

Lerman A, Burnett JC Jr, Higano ST, et al. Long-term L-arginine supplementation improves small-vessel coronary endothelial function in humans. Circulation. 1998; 97:2123-2128.

Loukides S, Kharitonov S, Wodehouse T, et al. Effect of arginine on mucocilliary function in primary ciliary dyskinesia. Lancet. 1998; 352:371-372.

Lubec B, Hayn M, Kitzmü ller E, et al. L-arginine reduces lipid peroxidation in patients with diabetes mellitus. Free Rad Biol Med. 1997; 22:355-357.

Mantha SV. Mediation of L-arginine-induced retardation of hypercholesterolemic atherosclerosis in rabbits by antioxidant mechanisms. Nutr Res. 1999; 10:1529-1539.

Nagase S, Takemura K, Ueda A, et al. A novel nonenzymatic pathway for the generation of nitric oxide by the reaction of hydrogen peroxide and D- or L-arginine. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1997; 233:150-153.

Narita I, Border WA, Ketteler M, et al. L-arginine may mediate the therapeutic effects of low protein diets. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA. 1995; 92:4552-4556.

Reis DJ, Regunathan S. Is agmatine a novel neurotransmitter in brain? Trends Pharmacol Sci. 2000; 21:187-193.

Sandrini G, Franchini S, Lanfranchi S, et al. Effectiveness of ibuprofen-arginine in the treatment of acute migraine headaches. Int J Clin Pharmacol Res. 1998; 18:145-150.

Schachter A, Goldman JA, Zuckerman Z. Treatment of oligospermia with the amino acid arginine. J Urology. 1973; 110:311-313.

Scibona M, Meschini P, Capparelli S, et al. [L-arginine and male infertility]. [Article in Italian]. Minerva Urol Nefrol. 1994; 46:251-253.

Tangphao O, Grossman M, Chalon S, et al. Pharmacokinetics of intravenous and oral L-arginine in normal volunteers. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1999; 47:261-266.

Tentolouris C, Tousoulis D, Davies GJ, et al. Serum cholesterol level, cigarette smoking, and vasomotor responses to L-arginine in narrowed epicardial coronary arteries. Amer J Cardiol. 2000; 85:500-503.

Wascher TC, Posch K, Wallner S, et al. Vascular effects of L-arginine: anything beyond a substrate for the NO-synthase? Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1997; 234:35-38.

Diet Mt. Dew I believe, but as mentioned its a small difference, @ 10-20mg of caffeine between that and other diet drinks.

Actually it doesn't. How am I "risking my health", by taking a non-jaguar brand arginine supplement?

Please tell me you're not resorting to scare tactics to sell your supps now?  The only side effect that's worth a damn mentioning is free radical production - which DOESN'T happen unless you're pushing the 10+ grms a day limit. Not to mention most people here take more than adequate anti-oxidant supps. Please post an independent peer reviewed study that shows arginine suppl. can result in low sperm count and infertility. Seriously, please do. I'm not entirely trying to discredit you, I'll look at anyone's evidence and make a decision for myself. At this point you've posted a lot of theoretical crap and synergy brand-name dropping, and everything else I've read about free form arginine (ie: the Now brand/Vitamin Shoppe Brand, etc) shows that in its simplist form its just fine to use.

All that and only $91 per bottle!!! 

Jodster - Free form Arginine/Orthinine products work just fine, you will get minimally more absorption from Arginine AKG, Aginine Esters, etc.  Regular arginine works fine for most people, I've had great results with the Vitamin Shoppe brand Arg./Orth. stack for $14 a bottle, results comparable to Dymatize Xpand. Try it and see what works for you.

digestive enzymes can help - pinneaple extract/acidophilis - but I most people that are lact. int. should just stay away all together, there's other options if you want a slowly digested protein.