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13226  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 21, 2008, 12:50:50 PM
I meant you were assuming the child was older because you made reference to his being a drunkard.

Not quite. The point I was making to Deicide is that the passage (Deut 21:18-21) makes reference to a rebellious son. But, nothing indicates that this son is a child. On the contrary, the context of the verses would suggest that this is a grown man (which, by OT law, means he's at least 20).


Please don't ask me to go back and find verses.  Tongue The context doesn't really matter since our laws and rules as a society today don't condone these acts no matter what the context is. Parents don't have their children executed for being drug addicts or drunkards. I think most rape victims today would prefer a prison sentence over marrying their assailant.

In the ancient world, the family made the call. The assailant wasn't forced to marry the rapist. And, the whole purpose was to ensure care for the victim. That's for unmarried ones. For those who already had husbands to care for them, the rapist got executed. I'm sure many rape victims would prefer that to a prison sentence (subject to reduction, based on "good behavior"). Again, a rape victim may have a host of wounds (physical, psychological, and financial), because of the crime. The assailant isn't responsible for any of that, either in prion or upon his release. Is that necessarily a better way to handle the situation? And, if there are other means to take care of those things for the victim (married or single), why is the rapist still alive?

I'll go out on a limb and say that, if we were talking about Catholic priests or other religious leaders molesting people, some of our non-religious buddies wouldn't have such a problem with the death penalty for rapists.


Kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach and causing a miscarriage carries more than a fine as penalty. Women who touch the genitals of a man when breaking up a fight between him and her husband don't get their hands chopped off. It goes on and on. The point is simply we don't live by those rules anymore.

Indeed, context is important when comparing laws then and now. (i.e. causing a miscarriage in a pregnant woman was yet another capital offense in OT times). Take also the case of theft. If someone stole livestock; he had to return at least double of what he took. If you get your car stolen, the thief simply gets chucked in jail and (if you're lucky) you get your property back in one piece. You don't get two cars for the trouble.




Btw, I remember that Vermont case, and the judge's ruling was taken totally out of context. He was angry that the rapist would only get a prison sentence, no counseling, since the rate of recidivism among those who receive no help is huge. He felt in this case the rapist could have been set on the right track. (There was more to the case than the headlines made out) He was trying to make a point.  As he said, he was tired of seeing the same faces over and over.

Exactly what was stopping the judge from ordering counseling for this guy? And why would getting him such require a two-month jail sentence? Perhaps, he could have been set on the right course. But, the judge gave him 60 days and that would have been it, had O'Reilly not interjected himself into the situation.

13227  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Training Q&A / Re: The IronMan/MuscleTech "Add UP TO 1 inch to your Arm in 24 Hours" Routine. on: April 21, 2008, 12:21:30 PM
The One Day Program is an old one but can be a goodie, when approached the right way. The original version only required a light set (1 or 2 at the very most) of tricep/bicep exercises SS'ed each hour. You do not want to do  forced reps, go to failure or have an extended arm workout.  The idea is to have a slight pumped supply of fresh blood  throughout the day.  You do not want to put a great demand on the CNS, that's why the 1 hour workouts are short and light. Doing 10 reps, if you feel like you could do 1 or 2 more, than do not. Just get and maintain that arm pump all day long with those lighter SS's.. Between 6 (at the least) to 8 (at the most) times on that workout day. Old BB'ing saying, "More blood, more muscle".

Probably better to rely on a more liquid form of nourishment when doing the actually program. Easier on the digestion while keeping the main supply of blood (Blood/plasma circulates in the stomach/digestive area quite a bit with a heavier meal) in the arm area, where it is needed.  Whey , amino caps, flaxseed/Omega oils, etc. In any case you want the calories (the good kind) high to meet the demands of this style workout. Most of you guy's know what to eat with something like this.

That might explain why MuscleTech's version has users consuming SIX NITRO-TECH shakes (along with two CELL-TECH ones) and eating only three solid meals.


Might try single joint arm movements rather than compound ones.

Triceps: Skull crushers, French press, rope/'V" bar pushdowns, etc. Do not want CGBP, dips or other compound movements.

Biceps: Incline DB curls, Close grip (elbows glued to th sides) curls, Behind the neck lat machine curls, DB concentration curls, etc. No chins, up-right rows, etc. 

These are SS'ed of course. Some finding suggest that a muscle group will recovery better/faster with SS's. Take at least 3 days before and after this type system. You can measure the arm that day, the day after or whatever. But to confirm a lasting muscle gain, measure 3 to 4 days later. If you get a lasting 1/8 gain, that is good. If you get 3/8's or more, as a select few have in the past, than that is exceptional.

Remember to measure with a thin steel tape and the first thing in the morning, not any later when the arms can pump up doing normal things.


This type one day program also works very well for the calves. Guy's have even used it for the delts. In any event, it seems to work better with smaller muscle groups. Will it work for everyone. NO, nothing ever seem to do that. No magic bullet in lifting. But what do you have to lose, one day and that's it. Some will do this special workout 2 or 3 times a year when gains seem to hit the wall. Good Luck.


Yep!!! Both IronMan and MuscleTech recommend waiting at least two to three months, before repeating such a routine. I won't have a problem complying with that. It may be another three YEARS, before I go through this again.
13228  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 21, 2008, 10:26:47 AM
It's still a cop out and GOD is morally accountable to himself otherwise he's a hypocrite.    You can on and on trying to justify it, but it doesn't change a thing he allegedly did, kill innocent children.

And the only reason I bring up options, is becuase you bought up Horoshima which is a ridiculous analogy.  Options or not killing children is evil.   The whole world agrees.  Except for the few conservative Christians who don;t have the courage to face the truth.

Once again, you have not addressed the questions. "Evil" according to what? and WHO is going to hold God "accountable for doing His will with His creation?


 A drastic problem doesn't justify a drastic solution if it involves killing children.  And the "right" thing to do, or the "Godly" thing to do is find a way to spare any of those who do not deserve punishment ESPECIALLY if it is within your power.

Again dismissing it as either not being morally accountable or other poeple pay the price for someone else's sins is a plain cop out to avoid a conflict of faith.

What you forget is that He (not you or I) decides who deserves what. The judgment on the Amalekites was His call to make. Whether you like or not makes no difference in the matter.

Your accusations of a conflict in faith are false. There's no conflict on my end, because (as sad as it is), sinful behavior adversely affects other people. You've committed sin, that has affected other people who "didn't deserve it" and so have I. As I said before (using another analogy), your kids don't deserve to be thrown out on the street, because you get fired and can't pay your rent/mortgage. But, that's exactly what will happen. However, that doesn't make the landlord/bank foreclosure folks evil, because your kids end up homeless.


None of that matters.  How is God teaching anything when he tells someone to kill children?  And there we go again justifying the killing of children"  "well if they had just done what he said to do....."   Roll Eyes

What God teaches is the responsibility we have to govern our actions and our behavior, because the people under our authority can be blessed or cursed by such.

If you're a husband, your behavior affects your family. If you own a business, your behavior affects your employees (ask the folks who worked at Enron). And, if you're a king, your behavior affects your kingdom and its subjects. Righteous behavior blesses them; unrighteous behavior curses them.
13229  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 21, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
Just surmising. Children were contracted into marriage at 13 so I split the difference, figuring the kid must have been completely useless if the parents wanted him executed before they could rid their house of him through marriage. Btw, what was the legal drinking age back then? You assume only 20-year-olds were permitted to do so... that's modern day thinking. And didn't God admonish parents to execute children who cursed them? Does that come under rebellious behavior?

I didn't assume that 20-year old males were permitted to marry, because of modern-day thinking. Again, I make reference to the verse, For this reason shall MAN leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. In the Old Testament, a male was considered a man, when he reached the age of 20. Look at the census of Israel, shortly after they left Egypt. It counts all the men, who are defined as males at least 20 years old. That changed later, through the Jewish culture (hence the Bar Mitsvah thing at 13).

Deicide is absolutely right though.  The OT is outdated as a model for living, and many of the condoned acts in it would land you in prison for life, if not with a needle in the arm.  Killing infants and ripping open the bellies of pregnant women is abhorrent to us. Men do not hide behind bushes waiting for cheerleading practice to be over so they can grab a wife. Rape means a prison term. Slavery is outlawed. Complaining people are not put to death. Women are not executed the day after their wedding night for not being a virgin (regardless if they had conceived that night) Jealous men don't get to feed their wives poison as a trial by fire to judge their faithfulness (and abort a child if they happen to be pregnant).  Blah Blah Blah. 

It would help if you provided the verses to these claims, because I think some context is left out of a lot of your statements. For example:

"Rape means a prison sentence" - In OT times, rape was a capital offense (i.e. DEATH to the rapist), depending on the marital status of the victim. The principle behind this was ensuring a material care system for the victim. If there was none in place (unmarried victim), the rapist became that. If there was such in place (married/bethroed victim), rapist gets executed. Contrary to what some may believe, a rape victim was NOT forced to marry her assailant. If the victim was unmarried/unbethroed, the rapist had to (at the very least) cough up the bride price for that young lady or become a slave to the victim's family to pay off the debt. And, if I'm not mistaken, unlike other debts that got canceled every 7 years, this was PERMANENT (he had to care for the rape victim FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE!!!).


That doesn't happen today. If a guy rapes somebody, he gets put in jail (with the possibility of early release/parole) and, upon completion, we declare that he's "paid his debt to society". Problem with that is "society" didn't get raped. The victim may have physical/emotional/financial woes that last her ENTIRE LIFETIME. But, the rapist will not be accountable for that, beyond his prison sentence, say 5-10 years. He doesn't have to pay her medical bills, fund her psychiatric care, reimburse her for lost wages, etc.

Heck, in Vermont, a dude raped a little girl for over FOUR YEARS but got only three years in jail for that (and that only happened because the case appears on the show of Bill O'Reilly, who inform viewers that pressured the judge to bump up the sentence from a mere TWO MONTHS). That girl will be scarred for life, but this guy will not be accountable to anyone (on Earth, at least), the instant he gets out of prison.



13230  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 21, 2008, 08:24:59 AM
Then the god of the OT is a hypocrite.  Killing children is an evil act.  what we did in Japan dropping those bombs is an evil act.  Unfortunately it was the lesser of 2 evils in our case as we didn't have the plethora of options God has at his disposal.

dismissing the act of ordering jewish soldiers to kill children by saying the children were God's creation and he can do anything he wants with them with out moral accountability but yet we are held to the same accountability is a cop out from addressing an evil act.

Again, WHO is going to hold God morally accountable? We are held accountable to Him, when we do wrong, because He is the ultimate authority on the matter. We can't destroy His creation and be blameless, UNLESS He authorizes it (as was the case with the Amalekites).

God has many options at His disposal. With the Amalekites, He chose Saul as the agent of judgment. So be it. His not picking the option that you or I would have preferred DOES NOT make His choice an evil one. Regardless of the medium used, God was going to bring judgment on the Amalekites, PERIOD.

It shows a desperate attempt to make sense of killing children and maintaining the WOG beliefs that barely holds one's faith from conflict.

There's no desparation involved. It was a drastic act to deal with a drastic problem. The making sense part is simple (harsh at times, but simple): Sinful behavior causes suffering. And (once again) the worst part about sin is that the transgressors aren't the only ones who pay the price.

The book of Esther gives a great example. Israel was once again persecuted by the Amalekites and would have been completely exterminated, had it not been for this heroic woman. Of course, the reason she had to do all of this was because a certain numb-skulled Israelite king didn't follow God's instructions.

13231  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Training Q&A / Re: The IronMan/MuscleTech "Add UP TO 1 inch to your Arm in 24 Hours" Routine. on: April 21, 2008, 08:01:33 AM
keep us posted about your result as i cant be bothered to try it myself


The issue for me wasn't time to do the workout. It was taking the 3-4 days of beforehand. As it stood, I only had two days off, before I tried this.

I started the routine at 8 a.m. yesterday and finished it at 4:30 p.m. Because I woke up a bit late, I had to slide some of my meals. P45 was right about one thing: You do get worn out quickly. Only it wasn't even halfway through the day, in my case. By the 10:30 session, I was feeling like "Phooey on this! I'm going to take a nap!!" Those 25-minute rest sessions between the workouts just zipped way too quickly for me.

The strangest thing was that Workout 1 portion, 3 supersets of Barbell Curls and Triceps Pressdowns, wasn't that bad. It was Workout 2, 3 supersets of Dumbbell curls and Lying French Presses, that tore me up. As the day progressed, I had to lighten the dumbbells I was using by 5 lb. and I ended up switching to decline French presses.

Per MuscleTech's version of this program, I'm supposed to spend the next four days chowing down and guzzling down shakes to foster recovery. Again, I used my RTDs (Extreme Body 50 and IsoPure) and Vitamin Shoppe's Whey Tech in place of NITRO-TECH and Body Fortress Super Advance Creatine High Performance, instead of CELL-TECH.

My arms aren't super-sore.....YET! I'm not supposed to measure my arms again, until at least day 3 of recovery, which would be Wednesday for me.

13232  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Training Q&A / Re: The IronMan/MuscleTech "Add UP TO 1 inch to your Arm in 24 Hours" Routine. on: April 19, 2008, 08:46:00 PM
lol, ive always wondered about this routine, seems like it could be fun if you had the time.

So i assume your doing biceps and triceps? Its just that ive heard of people only doing it for biceps. Good luck anyway, will be interesting to see the results (if any), you wont be able to lift your arms up after it Grin

I've never heard of people using this just for biceps. As for time, I will be doing the routine tommorrow. The weekend would be the most logical time to try such a program, especially if you have weights at home.

I've only taken two days off (counting today). IronMan recommended a three-day break before trying this routine; MuscleTech suggests 4 days off. I don't like going that long without training, especially if I'm making progress in other areas (that's partly why it's taken me this long to actually give this a shot).

Peaking at 45 (P45) says that he didn't do anything out of the ordinary, as far as rest or excessive food is concerned; yet he put on 3/8" on his arms. I'll will be following MuscleTech's direction, regarding the timing of my meals and supplements.

I'll see how much "fun" this is by about 2 p.m. tommorow.
13233  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: Heads up, Vitamin Shoppe customers....especially fans of Thyrotabs. on: April 19, 2008, 06:05:01 PM
  You're right, M. A shame, too, since most of the feedback that I've seen indicates that the Thyrotabs are much better than the 3rd Degree.

The other fat-burner is called CytoLean. How does that compare with either 3o Burn or Thyrotabs?
13234  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: Heads up, Vitamin Shoppe customers....especially fans of Thyrotabs. on: April 19, 2008, 04:20:32 PM
Why have they stopped making thyrotabs?

I believe Gaspari has two other fat-burners: 3o Burn and one other, the name of which I can't quite remember.

It's a typical trend. MuscleTech did/is doing the same thing. Now that Hydroxycut Hardcore is out, it's but a matter of time before ThermoGain and ThermoShred go bye-bye (which means markdowns  Grin ).
13235  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 19, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
That's the one of the issues stella, how is anyone to know if God truly tells anyone?

I bet the percentage of people who think god has spoken to them at some point in there lives is higher than we think. 

I believe he's spoken to me on 2 occasions. 

Take the Jews who were instructed by God to kill children.  How do we know they actually were told by god? 

I don't believe they were told by God becuase killing innocent children is an evil thing to do and god is not evil. (making it more than obviously the OT is not the 100% WOG, therefore God did not commit an evil act)

But yet, nations will act on what someone, who they believe is the voice of God, says to do.

Hasn't Bush even said something to the effect  he's been guided by God or talks to him or something?

Thiis s the kind of thing that leads to righteousness.  Isn't righteous something Jesus warns us about? 

Sure we do.  Because we are at the very least a modern civilization.  But at the religious core we are not becuase many still believe the OT is the 100% WOG and see no moral inequity or accountability on God's part for killing children.  Our religious roots are planted, as DeeDee said, in a time of complete barbarism.  that gives us the potential to fall into the same "almost" the same level of righteousness that caused grown men to kill innocent children because they believe who ever ordered them to was told by God to do it.

Accountability to WHOM, Ozmo? Who exactly is going to hold God accountable for doing His will with HIS creation?

We discussed this a while back, specifically as it relates to the Amalekites. The order was that, due to Amalek's constantly terrorizing Israel (among others) for over three centuries. The whole issue with Saul came, not because he had a problem destroying the enemies of Israel, but because he was greedy and wanted to keep the spoils of war, despite strict orders to spare no one and nothing.

It's as Samuel told the Amalekite king: Since Agag's sword made women childless, so his mother (and by extension, those of his people) would be made childless. They had three centuries to straighten up, fly right, and make amends. They did not but got worse. Therefore, it's judgment time. And the evil of Amalek's king cursed his entire people, not just him or his family.

Again, I refer you to World War II. When the A-bomb dropped on Hiroshima, it didn't single out the male members of the Japanese military. Anyone and everyone within range of the A-bomb met their end. Japan had the opportunity to cease fire and atone for Pearl Harbor. But, it didn't.....you know the rest.

As for your other question, Jesus did warn about righteousness. He also said, "Vengeance is Mine; I'll will repay" or make recompense. In other words, He will decide when and how judgment and justice will be metted to those who break His laws and oppress His people. And in Amalek's case, it was death via the sword of Saul. Unfortunately Saul, in his pride and greed, didn't heed God's full instruction, resulting in a curse on himself, his family, and later on Israel.
13236  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 19, 2008, 03:11:29 PM

What does Stalin has to do with people being murdered in the name of God?

It has to do with agreeing with Loco's point: that people have had such things happen, regardless of whether "the name of God" has been used or not.


Are you, in some perverted way, trying to justifying one horrible act by another evil crime?

First of all, who's defining "good and evil" here?

If that someone is God, then (as the Creator of life) He has the right to do what He wants with His creation. And, if He decides that time's up for a certain group of people (i.e. the Amalekites for their persecuting Israel, among others, for over 300 years), then the Amalekites are as good as gone, period.
13237  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: HAHA, "MISTER GX" CLAIMS IT'S EASY TO EAT 8 LBS. OF FISH A DAY!!!!!!!!! on: April 19, 2008, 02:43:04 PM
Roughly how much would 8lb of this fish cost? Ive neer seen it in the Uk

That depends on the type of fish. Three cans of tuna is just over a pound of fish. And, considering that chunk light tuna is more like a paste, downing a pound of it doesn't seem that difficult, especially if you mix it with some yogurt (allowing you to bascially gulp it down fairly quickly).

Now, consuming EIGHT pounds of fish in one day would take some doing. But again, if it's chunk light tuna (mixed with some medium to get it down easier), I don't see that as an impossibility. But, you might get kicked out of your house for trying, given the smell factor.
13238  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: Heads up, Vitamin Shoppe customers....especially fans of Thyrotabs. on: April 19, 2008, 02:35:56 PM
  Just got back from my local VS and they're selling near-expired boxes of Thermogenic Thyrotabs for like a quarter of the usual price. A great deal, especially since it looks as if Gaspari has stopped making them. Some other goodies too, like EvolutionX10 and Redline liquid. Cool

I just saw that a couple of days ago. I think a box is going for about $16. And, I would have bought some. But, my priority is protein and Vitamin Shoppe is still doing the "Buy One; Get One 50% Off" on all Vitamin Shoppe products. That means it's Whey Tech time for me.


With that said, the clearance table at a different VS retail store had a 42-serving box of Myoplex for $45.
13239  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Training Q&A / MuscleTech/IronMan "Up-to-1-inch-in-24-hours" Arm Routine on: April 19, 2008, 02:08:08 PM
Since I've had some time off and I have access to weights this weekend with little else to do, I will finally give this program a try.

About two years ago, I spoke with people who have used this routine, that I've seen in both MuscleMag International and IronMan, since 2002. Here's what I wrote about it, back in 2006:



This type of workout has been around for decades. IronMan featured something similar, based on an article by the magazine's founder, Peary Rader. The program was titled "Add a Half-Inch on Your arms in One Day". The concept was the same: Doing antagonistic supersets for biceps and triceps at the top and bottom of the hour for eight to nine hours. The exercises done at the top of the hour were EZ-Curl Bar barbell curls and lying triceps extensions (French presses); those done at the bottom of the hour were seated dumbbell curls and lying dumbbel triceps extensions.

The rest period, prior to trying this program is three days, instead of four, like that of MuscleTech.  IronMan does instruct to rest (no training) for three days, followed by a light training day on the fourth day. The diet portion doesn't go into detail, as does the program described by MuscleTech. IronMan simply recommends six high-protein meals throughout the day (no specific times given). IronMan also recommends rubbing the arms with alcohol, prior to bedtime, after doing this routine.

IronMan claims that this program can be used on 60 to 90-day intervals.

Rader claimed he put on 3/4" on his arms doing it. Old-school bodybuilder and IM writer Gene Mozee said he got 5/8" gain on his arm.

At least two GetBig members reported success, using this program:

I have actually done the all day arm routine (twice).

The first time I gained (permanently) 3/8" to my arms (I was in full training so it was not after a layoff where gains are easy.

The 2nd time I only gained barely 1/8 of an inch (not even 1/8th of an inch)

Each time I did not do anything out of the ordinary such as massive supplements, eating,  or rubbing alcohol, etc.

About halfway thru the day, you start to get worn out by the routine (physically and mentally), but ya just keep[ going.

The 1st time i did it still makes me laugh------I did the routine at home (I have weights at home too), and I remember loading my E-Z curl bar and weights into my van, I had some things to get at the store, and I remember doing curls and standing triceps extensions in the parking lot of K-Mart !!!!!!

The routine has worked for me !!!     Good Luck ! Wink

And...

I read this routine in muscle n fitness mag.it was 5 hours routine.You have to do 3 supersets of barbell curls with overhead dumbell extension,resting 90 sec btw each superset.After completing this at 20 min u have to do two supersets of alternating dumbell curl with both arm dumbell kickback,max 12 reps each exercise.Then at 40 mins u have to do barbell curls superset with skull crushers,one set of 6 reps each,each rep is done in 12 secs.This routine is followed for next five hours.I  have done this routine strictly but the improvement is minute.My left bicep improved by 1/8 inch ,whereas right bicep improved by 3/8 inches.Anyone of  you who has tried this routine can tell me his experience.

MuscleTech's modification of this program is more detailed, as far was when to train, what/when to eat, and, when to take certain supplements, (i.e. CELL-TECH and NITRO-TECH).

I will be substituting CELL-TECH with Body Fortress Super Advanced Creatine and NITRO-TECH, which tends to give me a headache, with other protein drinks (IsoPure RTDs, Vitamin Shoppe's Whey Tech, ABB Extreme Body 50, or MyoPlex).

13240  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Training Q&A / Re: what the F*$K is up with these BF% scales?!?!? on: April 19, 2008, 01:52:23 PM
Actually hydrostatic tests are the most accurate. Check it out:

http://www.getdunked.com/home/default.asp

And yes, those scale are worthless.

Though someone definately suckered every woman with a body dismorphic disorder (all of them) into buying one.

I've also heard that the test the military does for estimating bodyfat is pretty accurate. For those that don't fit the "ideal" weight for their height, a measurement of the neck and waist is taken. That is plugged into a formula (simplified into a chart for quick reading), resulting in a bodyfat estimation.

Here's are some links:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blbodyfatmale2.htm (Height: 5'5" - 5'91/2")

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blbodyfatmale3.htm (Height: 5'10" - 6'21/2")

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blbodyfatmale4.htm (Height: 6'3" - 6'8")

The "Circumference Value" (CV) is simply the difference, in inches, between your waist and neck (i.e. someone who 5'10", weighing 240 lbs. with an 18" neck and a 35" waist would have a CV of 17, which would correspond to a bodyfat estimate of 13%).

These are for guys. If any ladies are interested, let me know and I'll post those links.

13241  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 19, 2008, 01:33:05 PM
Sounds like a quaint custom for dealing with 16-year-old unmarriageable bad boys. Whatever happened to it?

All 16-years old were "unmarriageable" back then, as the legal age for male adulthood was 20. Again, this was about serious misconduct that brought shame, dishonor, and (in some cases) disease and death to families.

If little Obadiah talked back to his parents, he likely got a healthy dose of the rod to his behind.
13242  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 18, 2008, 07:52:25 AM
"Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

So in Proverbs Yahweh tells us to beat children to save their souls, but not kill them (very nice of him).

In other words, spank them, take them to the woodshed, etc. We call that corporal punishment.


But then Yahweh changes his mind...

Illustrated just for you MCWAY...
 Deuteronomy 21:21
'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'



The LEGO thing was cute. Unfortunately, this one is just as accurate as your blurb about iron chariots, as it appears you did not consider the context of this verse.

Here's the full passage on this matter, starting from verse 18.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them. Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.



The passage reads, "if a man has a stubborn and rebellious son". NOWHERE does it indicate that the son in question is a child.

In fact, the later verses describes the son as a glutton and a drunkard, terms used for ADULT misconduct. It appears that you're forgetting that men stayed with their parents, until they married, and then got a place of their own. Hence, we have the verses, For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife Prime examples are the patriarchs of the Jewish people: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom stayed with their parents as ADULTS.

The point is that this is for serious grievances. It has NOTHING to do with stoning little Obadiah for not eating all his manna or leaving his G.I. Jehosephat action figures all over the floor.

So, once again, where's the part about killing children?
13243  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 18, 2008, 05:30:36 AM
I highlighted it because as a guide for morality and life, the OT is horrible. It is babaric, cruel, tyrannical and just plain antiquated; old Yahweh the angry is a very uncool deity. I prefer Dagda or Thor. As mythology, pseudo-history and a work of literature the OT is ok. If someone wants to use it as a guide to living (as in killing children who talk back to you or beating them with rods), then yes, it should be thrown into a pile of sewer filth as in this regard it truly belongs there.

And this verse about killing children who talk back to you would be located where?
13244  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 16, 2008, 02:31:43 PM
The potential you speak of applies to many things and to many people, including people who do not believe in the Bible, or don't even believe in God for that matter.  There is just as much, if not more, potential for anybody who does not believe in "divine inspiration/guidance" to be vulnerable to manipulations by politicians and leaders.  Evidence of this is Nationalism, Social Darwinism, The Great Leap Forward, The Great Purge, just to name a few secular ideals which have claimed far more lives in modern times than any "alleged divine inspiration/guidance" justified actions by any religious group.

I've heard the saying that Stalin killed more people in one year than the Crusaders did in a decade. Bascially, that amount to the "god" in question being the state/government. And since he ran the state/government, the "god" was, in effect, Stalin himself.
13245  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 16, 2008, 12:44:23 PM
No, I meant why would soldiers be interested in raping old virgins?  The passage simply specifies virgins, but nothing about rape, the virgin's age, body weight, body shape or looks. 

That was actually an honest question.

How old were these virgins?  How old were the Israelli soldiers?

What you're forgetting, Loco, is that this whole issue revolves around Israel's idolatry and sexual misconduct. Again, the virgins females were spared, because they weren't part of Balak's plan (as guided by the rogue prophet, Balaam) to get Israel to backsliding.

13246  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 16, 2008, 12:19:31 PM
Didn't Sisera later get a woman's touch w/a tent peg  Shocked


Yep, and an iron one at that!!!

However, I was referring the judge and prophetess, Deborah, who declared that Israel would be delivered from the king of Canaan and his captain of the guard, Sisera (iron chariots and all)  Cool
13247  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Nutrition, Products & Supplements / Re: Travelling with Sups on: April 16, 2008, 10:48:47 AM
When you folks travel with your OTC supps ( pills, tabs etc) do you put them in your check in luggage?

Ever been questioned about what they are etc etc? Things are soo stringent nowadays, I am wondering if I should just send them to my destination via mail...

Nope. I just keep them in my bag. Most of the time, they just run the bag through the machine and they don't bother you, unless you have liquids like RTDs. Those you have to put in your checked baggage.
13248  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 15, 2008, 01:11:23 PM
Hiya Loco, missed you!  Smiley

The bible is written by the hand of God, therefore he condones/approves of its contents. If you are saying that parts of it, or the bible in its entirety, is man-created, then that throws everything out the window doesn't it? We can discard what we don't like since man's perception is open to fallacy.

Here are a few examples Loco.  There are many but I don't want to spam the board.  Smiley  I can post a link with the full list of atrocities (by modern human standards).

Numbers

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.           
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.


They got 32,000 virgins  Shocked  - after watching their children, babies, husbands, fathers, mothers butchered, these women were then raped, and kidnapped, by order of God.

Where does this alleged raping occur? More importantly, why the emphasis on sparing females who "have not known a man by lying with him", as opposed to not sparing those who had known a man?

The answer lies in the scenario. These were the Moabites, whose king wanted to conquer the Israelites, because their numbers were increasing and he fear a hostile takeover. Initially, he hired a prophet, Balaam, to curse Israel, in hopes that would stop them.

Numbers 22:

And the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in the plains of Moab on this side Jordan [by] Jericho. And Balak the son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites. And Moab was sore afraid of the people, because they were many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of Israel. And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company lick up all that are round about us, as the ox licketh up the grass of the field. And Balak the son of Zippor was king of the Moabites at that time.

He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me: Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that]we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed.



Keep in mind that word had spread about what went down, during the Exodus from Egypt and Israel's tangle with the Amorites. The Moabite king knew that (as long as God was with Israel) if he went head up with the Israelites, his troops would get beat down. Balaam couldn't curse Israel, as Balak had wanted. However, to avoid the wrath of the Moabite ruler and to keep all that loot he got, Balaam came up with a Plan B, to get Israel out of favor with God.


What's the one thing that would get God's protection taken from Israel? IDOLATRY (worshipping other gods).

And what was THE most effective way to get Israel's men to practice idolatry? Seduce them with their WOMEN, to engage in sex rituals as acts of pagan worship.

Moses explains that in verses 15 and 16:

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?  Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

John (quoting an angel he sees in a vision) also makes reference to this in Revelation, when describing false prophets, "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication."

This was mentioned earlier in Numbers (and, apparently, the Midianites got in on the act, too).

Chapter 25, verses 1-3:

And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

So, if any "raping" was being done, it was during this period, NOT when Moses gave the order to clean house.

The virgins weren't spared for the purposes of being "fresh meat" for Israel. On the contrary, they were spared, because they weren't enticing Israel into sin and idolatry. If the Israelite males were really on a raping rampage, I'd doubt they'd be making any distinction, between virgins and non-virgins.

13249  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Is God Cruel? on: April 15, 2008, 11:17:24 AM
One thing is for sure: if you ever got in a fight with Yahweh, you could beat him senseless with a rod of iron; it's his one weakness.

Apparently, you missed Judges 4. Iron chariots didn't help this guy, Sisera:

Verses 2-4:

And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

Verses 13-16:

And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.

Maybe, all the situation needed was a woman's touch. Can I get an "AMEN", STella?


13250  Getbig Misc Discussion Boards / Religious Debates & Threads / Re: Was the O.T. God forgiving and merciful? on: April 15, 2008, 10:34:56 AM
Apparently, much like Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite, Yahweh the raging one has a weakness to Iron:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Judges 1:19  

Hardly. Ask that dude, named Sisera, from Judges 4, how much the possession of iron chariots helped him against God's judgment.

Verses 13-16:

And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.



As far as Judges 1 is concerned, simply put, the people of Judah were intimidated because of the iron chariots of their enemies, even though they were told that they could overcome them. That's not unlike the spies who checked out Caanan, most of them trembled in fear, referring to themselves as grasshoppers.

We see something similar in Joshua 17. The children of Joseph are scared of the Canaanites, because of those chariots, even though Joshua tells them that they will beat Canaan.

But, as shown in Judges 4, once the people heeded God's instructions, as given by the judge/prophetess Deborah, Sisera and all NINE HUNDRED iron chariots were no match for the Israelites.
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