Here is something I havenít asked you yet. How many competitions have you competed in? How many judges have approached you and talked to you about why you were judged the way you were? How many critiques have you received?
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
I never realized that feet were judged. Iíd hate to think that someone could lose due to feet.
When assessing a competitorís physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole. During the comparisons of the
compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed. The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition. The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet. A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitorís overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be overemphasized
as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
Front Double Biceps (see Figure 1)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet
in-line and a short distance apart, the competitor will raise
both arms to shoulder level and bend them at the elbows.
The hands should be clenched and turned down so as to
cause a contraction of the biceps and forearm muscles,
which are the main muscle groups that are to be assessed
in this pose. In addition, the competitor should attempt
to contract as many other muscles as possible as the
judges will be surveying the whole physique, from head to
The judge will first survey the biceps muscles looking for a
full, peaked development of the muscle, noting whether
or not there is a defined split between the anterior and
posterior sections of the biceps, and will continue the
head-to-toe survey by observing the development of the
forearms, deltoids, pectorals, pec-delt tie-ins, abdominals,
thighs, and calves. The judge will also look for muscle
density, definition, and overall balance.
Front Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles.
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso. Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on
the more detailed aspects of the various muscle groups.
3. Side Chest (see Figure 3)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose, in
order to display the ďbetterĒ arm. He will stand with his
left or right side towards the judges and will bend the arm
nearest the judges to a right-angle position, with the fist
clenched and, with the other hand, will grasp the wrist.
The leg nearest the judges will be bent at the knee and
will rest on the toes. The competitor will then expand the
chest and by upward pressure of the front bent arm and
contract the biceps as much as possible. He will also
contract the thigh muscles, in particular, the biceps
femoris group, and by downward pressure on his toes,
will display the contracted calf muscles.
The judge will pay particular attention to the pectoral
muscles and the arch of the rib cage, the biceps, the leg
biceps and the calves, and will conclude with the head-tofoot
examination. In this pose the judge will be able to
survey the thigh and calf muscles in profile, which will
help in grading their comparative development more
Back Double Biceps (see Figure 4)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
bend the arms and wrists as in the Front Double Biceps
pose, and will place one foot back, resting on the toes.
He will then contract the arm muscles as well as the
muscles of the shoulders, upper and lower back, thigh
and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the arm muscles and then do
the head-to-foot survey, during which there are more
muscle groups to look at than in all of the other poses.
This includes the neck, deltoids, biceps, triceps, forearm,
trapezius, teres, infraspinatus, erector spinae, external
obliques, latissimus dorsi, gluteus, thigh biceps, and
calves. This pose, probably more than the others, will
help the judge to determine the quality of the
competitorís muscle density, definition, and overall
Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes. He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes. The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally. It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.
6. Side Triceps (see Figure 6)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose so as
to show the ďbetterĒ arm. He will stand with his left or
right side towards the judges and will place both arms
behind his back, either linking his fingers or grasping the
front arm by the wrist with his rear hand. The leg nearest
the judges will be bent at the knee and the foot will rest
flat on the floor. The competitor will exert pressure
against his front arm, thereby causing the triceps muscle
to contract. He will also raise the chest and contract the
abdominal muscles as well as the thigh and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the triceps muscles, and
conclude with the head-to-foot examination. In this pose,
the judge will be able to survey the thigh and calf muscles
in profile, which will help in grading their comparative
development more accurately.
Abdominals and Thighs (see Figure 7)
Standing face front to the judges, the competitor will
place both arms behind the head and will place one leg
forward. He will then contract the abdominal muscles by
ďcrunchingĒ the trunk slightly forward. At the same time,
he will contract the thigh muscles of the forward leg.
The judge will survey the abdominal and thigh muscles,
and then conclude with the head-to-foot examination.
I like the part where it says that height is judged and that arm muscularity doesnít matter. You didnít type the judging criteria for the symmetry round. This criteria still lands Dorian in the same position. Heís playing catch up in any pose where his arms are visible. Your stance has to be that he can overcome this. If your stance is that it isnít noticeable or that it actually looks better to have a torn biceps then youíre fighting a losing battle.
actually symmetry? your definition of actual symmetry is left/right exactness? LMFAO first thing you need to know sport is NOTHING in nature is truly symmetrical. and I especially love that lame default position of ' flow ' hehehehehehehe spoken like someone who doesn't know anything about ' symmetry ' in the bodybuilding context , you need to do some more research because the more you type the more you're exposing how little you know
Symmetry (from the Greek: "__________" = to measure together), generally conveys two primary meanings. The first is an imprecise sense of harmonious or aesthetically pleasing proportionality and balance; such that it reflects beauty or perfection. The second meaning is a precise and well-defined concept of balance or "patterned self-similarity" that can be demonstrated or proved according to the rules of a formal system: by geometry, through physics or otherwise.
If you want to make up a definition for symmetry and use it then you need to define it. Otherwise you canít use it in an argument. When Iíve typed symmetry this is what Iíve been referring to. I will not pretend to know the definition youíve conjured up in your head.
And your proof that Shawn had better symmetry is ad populum? and I'm not saying that Dorian does have better ' symmetry ' per sa but your proof he does it popular opinion? more faulty logic on your behalf lol I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for you , Shawn could have better symmetry than Dorian and still lose the symmetry round , shall I explain to you again why?
You need a better grasp of logic and English to be able to win a debate with me. My stance was and still is that in a round where Dorian is unable to hide his poor arm shape and asymmetry, there is no reason to rank him above Shawn. If Shawn should have been ranked higher after the relaxed poses then most if not all of Dorianís scores would have been different. If one round was gifted to him then the credibility of the final outcome is minimal. So you think Dorian having a torn biceps was also just popular opinion and lacked factual evidence?
Sure you did and I already answered how height comes into play
Explain how I modified a question and explain how height is a judging criteria. Neither Dobbins nor the muscular round criteria mentioned it. If you typed your height explanation as a rebuttal to someone elseís post then I probably didnít read it.
What don't you get? how contests are judged for starters , how Dorian can win the symmetry round , what symmetry is , what the IFBB judging criteria is , how to apply it , how to comprehend what is being typed , there is a LOT you don't get
You keep telling me I donít get things yet you canít really explain how youíve come to this conclusion. You say my definition is wrong of words you can look up in a dictionary. You say that Iíve given into popular opinion yet the popular opinion is that Dorian should have been crowned Mr. Olympia. If youíre so against popular opinion then why arenít you in that instance? Just because something is popular opinion doesnít make it right or wrong.
You just proved my point again lmfao there is NO round where symmetry is key , where symmetry is judged as a sole entity. boy and I thought Hulkster was thick. Dorian was never lacking an ' arm ' for starters one bicep was shorter than another and I might agree that Dorian was never the most ' symmetrical ' depending on the context , and he wasn't the best conditioned? boy you are digging yourself deeper and deeper , it's astounding how little you know yet are so positive in your ignorance lol and he wasn't the most muscular? the best part of all your gross overstatements is they are just declarations with no explanation or elaboration what so ever , of wait is this the part where I know have to ask you to explain yourself? or should he just take your ignorant expert opinion on the subject?
So in a round where you have to stand with your arms at your sides and not contort your body, symmetry of the entire body is as easy to see as it is in a round where if you wanted you could never make one quarter turn? You really stand by that? Did I type that there is a round where only symmetry is judged and the rest of the physique isnít. If I didnít then you arguing against that is a waste of time. Where did you get your kinesiology degree? Bicep isnít really a word. The one you are looking for is biceps. Each muscle is two headed which indicates where the moniker came from. Thinking that biceps means muscles from both arms is incorrect.
In 93 Hamdullah Aykutlu and Andreas Munzer were in the lineup. At best Dorian would be 3rd in conditioning to these guys that year. Lee Priest competed with a higher LBMI than Dorian in 97. This means that per unit of height, Lee had more mass.
I'm starting to see a pattern here
Iím starting to see a pattern as well. You have pretty much given up on making points and are hoping to just outlast me. Use logic or inconsistencies to prove your points. Must I debate both sides? Iím actually doing a better job of making a case for you than you are.
I posted it to show YOU how there is NO round that judges symmetry alone and when knowing that ALL ROUNDS ARE PHYSIQUE ROUNDS it's easy to see how and why Dorian won this round despite you point that he shouldn't. And it doesn't matter what the round is called it is NOT the only thing being judged , get this through your head. And muscle dryness would be a reference to dehydrated muscle which would be flat? at first I thought you were just a gimmick looking to troll but then I thought maybe you're not but the absurdity of your comments can only draw one conclusion if you're not a gimmick and actually believe this nonsense I'm trying to figure out which is worse
' dryness probably shows little detail '
Well when you posted it you forgot that it doesnít say that symmetry and proportion are not factors in any of the rounds. It also said why the first round is often called the symmetry round. These names didnít come out of the sky. Your belief that they did is puzzling. Your thought that different aspects or muscles cannot be hidden to some extent in different rounds or poses also doesnít make sense to me. Iím still trying to help you you see. You really donít make any points besides typing that Iím wrong.
He wouldn't need the best symmetry to beat the guys who did , and go learn what symmetry is while you're at it because it's obvious you're trying to learn on the fly with your Google searches Dorian rarely had the best ' symmetry ' and always won the symmetry rounds with straight firsts I'm better with your limited abilities you still can't comprehend why. he was almost ( according to you ) never the most muscular , or best conditioned and his symmetry sucked , this begs the question . HOW THE FUCK DID HE DOMINATE THE SPORT FOR YEARS ON END? Oh I know according to you it was a ' gift ' from judges who wanted to keep a certain type of physique haahhahahaha and you have the audacity to claim I don't know how to argue? hehehehehehehe
If the guy with nowhere near the best symmetry always won the symmetry round then chances are the system is flawed. Iím not trying to learn on the fly. As a competitive bodybuilder I kind of felt it was important to find out what I would be judged on over a decade ago.
I'm better with your limited abilities you still can't comprehend why
Youíre right. I canít comprehend this and I doubt anyone else can with any level of certainty.
Dorian wasnít always the most muscular but he always ranked high in this criteria. I actually told you in the beginning that this is what he had over most of his competitors. He was usually the biggest guy onstage. He usually had some of the best conditioning on the stage but probably only had the best conditioning in the show twice. His symmetry didnít necessarily suck. His symmetry when compared to Shawn Ray, Chris Cormier, Charles Clairmonte, Flex Wheeler, Kevin Levrone, Mike Francois, Aaron Baker, Vince Taylor or Lee Lebrada always ranked lower. Bodybuilding is scored on a ranking system. Dorian dominated because the judges decided to make him the standard instead of judging the criteria. They looked at it as whose physique has bettered the reigning Mr. Olympia. Dorianís or Ronnie or Jay is going to have an advantage when they were last yearís ideal. The competitors realize this and thatís why guys like Cutler or James didnít seek to improve their physiques. They tried to do what they had to do to beat the reigning champ. Nasser and Flex did the same thing to try to hunt down Dorian. Both were better before they tried to play the size race with Dorian. Shawn didnít play the game. He tried to tweak a near flawless physique to become closer to what he saw as ideal. Iíve backed everything up that Iíve typed. You have backed little up even when youíve been asked repeatedly. You may know how to argue but if thatís true then youíre showing that youíre better at giving up.
He doesn't have better balance & proportions than Shawn , Kevin or Flex? ( more blanket statements with NO elaboration of points you have nerve saying I don't know how to argue lol ) we'll just take your word he doesn't and there it is again , the old ' flow ' hahahahahaha , people look at Shawn and his physique is more aesthetically pleasing so they feel he should have won despite is flaws and despite not meeting ALL of the criteria better than Dorian , it doesn't matter what people feel , like you , they don't know how contests are judged and base everything on how they feel , emotions don't dictate contests kid you still have a ton to learn
I can spell it out to you if youíre not understanding. Shawn didnít have a torn biceps. He didnít have calves that were noticeably bigger than his upper arms. Shawn didnít have a less dramatic taper or a protruding abdomen from the side. Shawnís calves didnít make his upper legs look small. Shawn didnít have a chest that lacked shape in certain areas. He didnít have arms that lacked detail from certain angles. Shawn didnít have inferior muscle shape in almost every muscle group.
And I never once pretended that he didn't have any weaknesses compared to his competition , once again you're arguing a point NO ONE ever made , I'm explaining that despite his flaws he can still beat them by satisfying more of the criteria better than the rest , a concept you still can't grasp. Now how about the fact that the high and low scores are toss out? I better you knew this too knowing this as well it would make you comprehend a little better how Dorian can still dominate ( Google that one too
Once again youíre right that I canít comprehend what youíve typed. I donít know if you didnít pay attention in the 5th grade or grew up in a country where English wasnít spoken. Iíve competed and looked at my scorecard before so I donít have to google that. You may not have pretended that he didnít have major weaknesses but you sure avoided the subject and wanted me to spell everything out for you. The question here really is if a competitor places in the bottom half of a major judging criteria, how much better in everything else does he have to be to offset his weakness. Iíd say he has to be quite a bit better in everything else to make up for his weakness. Being a little more conditioned than all but 3 competitors and slightly bigger than the ones that owned you in a weakness doesnít equate to domination.
We've established you don't have the slightest clue on how contests are judged and jumped to conclusions before knowing actual facts , you committed yourself way to early and ended up looking really stupid in the process , now you're embarrassed because you're in over your head and are trying desperately to save face , it's not working. You're a proud man but pride isn't going to save you from the ridiculous statements you're typing but hey have at it , I made a GetBig career out of exposing ignorant people just ask Hulkster
How does a guy with college degrees thatís talked to judges about judging, eaten dinner with a judge, read critiques from judges and been in or around the scene for the biggest part of his life not have the slightest clue about how contests are judged? You havenít established that so if we use logic that means youíve got a track record for not being able to prove things you think you have. What actual fact donít I know? That feet are being judged? Thatís the only thing that I learned from all of this. You havenít the ability to make me look stupid. You are a mental midget compared to me and the pages of this thread are evidence. You appear to have way more time on your hands and more value as a person placed on your getbig posts than I do. If I fail to respond to something it will be due to this inequality, not my ignorance.