Favre didn't really suck.  He was taken in the 2nd and traded for a 1st after the first season.  They were stacked at QB or so they thought.  He threw 4 passes his rookie year.  He wasn't given much of a chance.  Had they known where Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver's career's were going to go they probably would have held onto him.

I'm CSCS.  I'm not a CPT.  I didn't plan on being a personal trainer.  I planned on being a strength coach which the cscs was created for. It allows me to personal train where the CPT wouldn't help my credentials for applying for a college.  That being said there are good trainers that never finished high school and bad ones that have even more school and certifications than I do.  I wouldn't base my decision solely on one aspect but I've never been able to afford a trainer anyway.

We have to be so dark because the lights are so bright.  A normal tan gets washed out.

Aaron or any girl in that gym could hang with them with this workout.  The only way this could be described as intense is if you are referring to muscular endurance.  Also I like how the camera man would point out Aaron's form yet not the others.  Just because you are bigger doesn't mean that flaring your elbows out will work your triceps more.

Dorian did have better abs but Ronnie's misshapen 4 pack wasn't hard to beat.  Dorian really flowed early on where Ronnie has always kind of looked like he was put together with various parts like Frankenstein's Monster.

Dense?

What was the other half?

Light heavy.  He's probably 5'5"

I competed against him earlier this year.  His name is Corey I think.  He won the Coleman.

I generally drink water.

yes

I like the fact that he cut up a tall t.  He was retarded for buying the shirt in the first place.

The skinfold test takes water into account.  Only if you are dehydrated or holding a huge amount of water will it skew the test.  A skinfold test of 7% isn't usually 7% on DEXA scan. It would actually be more.

I was at the show so at least one guy in the audience wasn't gay.  Dexter posed too.  He's got much better lines.

If it was acceptable then the bar would weigh 135.  I'm a trainer and most of my clients can't do 135.  It is annoying for me to spend extra time asking the lazy guy that left his weight on to leave the area as he found it.

Due to each fighter's strategy this wasn't going to be an exciting fight.  One fighter wanted it on the ground and the other wanted to stand.  Overeem didn't want to make the mistake he did the first time around or the mistake that Fedor made.  He didn't and won.  He allowed Werdum to land some strikes because he was more worried about Werdum taking him down.  In a fight against Dos Santos, Overeem would be much less worried about getting submitted so he may be able to be more effective striking or at the very least defending strikes.

I'm actually quite intelligent.  What is it that doesn't make sense to you?

What do you want me to ask?  I’m actually having dinner with a judge next weekend.

 



I’m not typing in circles unless you see that I keep typing the same thing and you don’t really have an adequate response.  I also don’t need to be saved from anything.  I’ve won this debate if it ever was one.  This is just the aftermath.  You’ve assumed much and comprehended little.  I’m not scratching my head as to why Dorian won with straight firsts a lot of times.  I’ve given you the reason why.  I haven’t really asked you anything besides to make a point and you refuse.  I’ve tried different ways to explain things to you.  Also if a judge said “dry muscle” I don’t need to ask them if it is flat.  Chances are they don’t have degrees in Nutrition or Kinesiology. 





I can’t seem to get a lot of things you type because you aren’t that intelligent.  When talking to retarded people how much are you ever going to understand of what they say?  They miss something initially which makes the task difficult.  Do you realize that your shoddy definition of symmetry is similar to my other definition?  Flow is reached by having those things you typed.  Shawn was superior in just about every one of those things you listed.  It is nice to know that you finally agree that Shawn was more symmetrical.  Why couldn’t you have done that in the beginning?  I guess it just wouldn’t have been that much fun.  Also do you see how you downplay symmetry and proportion yet bring up how height is a factor?





I compete.  You just type.  You can’t type so much that you dehydrate the muscle.  Understand now?





I don’t agree with you that onstage, height matters.  Height matters when you’re trying to fill in the gaps or if it leaves you misshapen.  When you get on stage whether the gaps are filled in matters or if you have odd proportions.  How close you come to hitting your head on a doorway shouldn’t matter.  Franco and Dickerson were pretty short.

 


I can figure it out.  They system is flawed.  I know you think the judging is perfect but it isn’t.


 


Well if you think that what hamdullah achieved is easy given your perspective then you have to understand that’s completely meaningless.  You said he was always in the best condition and I said he wasn’t.  I listed people that were in better shape and you gave the excuse that they weren’t that big.  You lose, plain and simple.  They were in better shape and you couldn’t even deny it.  Dorian’s balance and proportions still weren’t what Shawn’s were. 


You forgot what this was in reference to.  You said Dorian was better in all of the criteria which isn’t true.  I didn’t say Hamdullah should have beaten him.



Shawn doesn’t really have narrow clavicles. I can’t think of one muscle group on his body that had worse shape than Dorian’s.  Why do you keep typing that the high and low scores are taken out?  Does this help any point you’re trying to make?  How many athlete meetings have you gone to?  Well they have one at every competition where they go over how we’ll be judged.  Shawn killed Dorian in symmetry which means he had to make up a lot of ground to still win the symmetry round.


Dorian without a doubt did as much as he could with what he had.  He just didn’t have that much naturally when it came to symmetry compared to Shawn.  You’re fucked if you admit that in the history of the IFBB even one athlete was judged incorrectly.  I think everyone but you know that there has been some poor judging over the years.




His bigger bones accounted for extra weight but it also gave the illusion that he was smaller than he was against someone with  a smaller bone structure.


Shawn wasn’t the only competitor that handed Dorian his ass when it came to symmetry.  When you keep typing that all rounds are physique rounds, it just shows how little you can think for yourself.  It doesn’t even make sense to keep typing. Once again that argument is for the posing round not the symmetry one.



The judges are inconsistent with the judging criteria.  You go get a straight jacket.  My place is onstage. 

Well I’m not saying that you have to have competed to know anything about judging but if you’ve been judged and had conversations with those judges about why you placed where you did, then it kind of leaves a lot of the guess work out of it.


What of the criteria do you think I didn’t know?  Years ago I bought posing videos made by an IFBB judge that goes through how one should pose.  Don’t you think that he damn near read the criteria in the video?  You have had your chance to make points and you haven’t.  I’ve asked you for some and you don’t respond.  What more should I do?  When you stand relaxed both arms are exposed and when you do a side chest pose only one biceps is exposed.  This is a concept you fail to understand. 

Explain what you think Symmetry is.  You’ve had your shot.  You wondered what mine was.  Then you claimed you asked me.  Then I gave you examples and definitions.  Do you see how this really isn’t a debate?  Calling me wrong just doesn’t cut it. 


Of course a dehydrated muscle is flat.  If you had a kinesiology degree or competed in something where the muscle was actually becoming dryer then you’d know.  Typing just doesn’t get it done.  What do you think most of muscle’s mass is, confetti?  You’re probably thinking that low amounts of subcutaneous water make someone look more defined which is the case but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.  You should be capable of explaining how I’m wrong or how you’re right.  Either will do.  You haven’t taught me anything besides the fact that you don’t really understand the concept of a debate and fail to understand logic.


Did you do a poll to reach this conclusion?  Do you believe that height was just left out of the article and criteria you posted?  Neither brought it up as even being a minor judging criteria.


I didn’t claim that Dorian should have ever won the symmetry round.  Many of his flaws were glaring in this round because he couldn’t contort his body. 


Get off your fat ass and attempt to be as lean as Hammdullah.  You want me to tell you how that will play out if you do try?  You’ll fail.  Now I was making my point and I did.  I told you that Dorian wasn’t always the biggest, many times he wasn’t in the best condition and his symmetry landed him out of the top 5.  I don’t have to type anymore about that.  I proved it and you didn’t deny it.  You brought up muscular size. 


What makes you think that all of the rounds are physique rounds?  Bodybuilding is about personality.  Symmetry is in reference to how a person meshes with other people in certain social situations.  I think we all know that.  The only round that has anything to do with how a physique looks is the posedown.


So I have to come up with facts and you don’t have to even back any point or make one for that matter?  That seems a little inconsistent.  Estimate bodyfat of each competitor and then figure out their BMI.  Who is bigger will be who has the biggest number.  I’m not in way over my head.  I’m light years above the competition.  I’ve gone above and beyond debating with you as though you’ve made some good points.  In reality you’ve just said I was wrong.


Dorian wasn’t really that much bigger than Shawn.  Dorian was about 4 inches taller and had bigger bones.  Shawn’s body was much more aesthetic and you think he reached this due to having poorer muscle balance and proportion?  What trait do you think creates a more aesthetic look?  Hair color?


The muscle is called a biceps.  I’ve tried to teach you this but you seem to be a little challenged.  You fail to grasp fundamental aspects of communication.  Who told you that I’ve never read the IFBB judging criteria?  You googling that and posting it really didn’t help your case.  Read what you’ve typed.  You lose credibility by not being able to type a paragraph that anyone can understand.  It isn’t that you talk about things that are over our heads.  It is that English is over yours.

Here is something I haven’t asked you yet.  How many competitions have you competed in?  How many judges have approached you and talked to you about why you were judged the way you were?  How many critiques have you received?  


I never realized that feet were judged.  I’d hate to think that someone could lose due to feet.

I like the part where it says that height is judged and that arm muscularity doesn’t matter.  You didn’t type the judging criteria for the symmetry round.  This criteria still lands Dorian in the same position.  He’s playing catch up in any pose where his arms are visible.  Your stance has to be that he can overcome this.  If your stance is that it isn’t noticeable or that it actually looks better to have a torn biceps then you’re fighting a losing battle.  

Symmetry (from the Greek: "__________" = to measure together), generally conveys two primary meanings. The first is an imprecise sense of harmonious or aesthetically pleasing proportionality and balance;[1][2] such that it reflects beauty or perfection. The second meaning is a precise and well-defined concept of balance or "patterned self-similarity" that can be demonstrated or proved according to the rules of a formal system: by geometry, through physics or otherwise.

If you want to make up a definition for symmetry and use it then you need to define it.  Otherwise you can’t use it in an argument.  When I’ve typed symmetry this is what I’ve been referring to.  I will not pretend to know the definition you’ve conjured up in your head.  

You need a better grasp of logic and English to be able to win a debate with me.  My stance was and still is that in a round where Dorian is unable to hide his poor arm shape and asymmetry, there is no reason to rank him above Shawn.  If Shawn should have been ranked higher after the relaxed poses then most if not all of Dorian’s scores would have been different.  If one round was gifted to him then the credibility of the final outcome is minimal.  So you think Dorian having a torn biceps was also just popular opinion and lacked factual evidence?

Explain how I modified a question and explain how height is a judging criteria.  Neither Dobbins nor the muscular round criteria mentioned it. If you typed your height explanation as a rebuttal to someone else’s post then I probably didn’t read it.

You keep telling me I don’t get things yet you can’t really explain how you’ve come to this conclusion.  You say my definition is wrong of words you can look up in a dictionary.  You say that I’ve given into popular opinion yet the popular opinion is that Dorian should have been crowned Mr. Olympia.  If you’re so against popular opinion then why aren’t you in that instance?  Just because something is popular opinion doesn’t make it right or wrong.  

So in a round where you have to stand with your arms at your sides and not contort your body, symmetry of the entire body is as easy to see as it is in a round where if you wanted you could never make one quarter turn?  You really stand by that?  Did I type that there is a round where only symmetry is judged and the rest of the physique isn’t.  If I didn’t then you arguing against that is a waste of time.  Where did you get your kinesiology degree?  Bicep isn’t really a word.  The one you are looking for is biceps.  Each muscle is two headed which indicates where the moniker came from.  Thinking that biceps means muscles from both arms is incorrect.  

In 93 Hamdullah Aykutlu and Andreas Munzer were in the lineup.  At best Dorian would be 3rd in conditioning to these guys that year.  Lee Priest competed with a higher LBMI than Dorian in 97.  This means that per unit of height, Lee had more mass.

I’m starting to see a pattern as well.  You have pretty much given up on making points and are hoping to just outlast me.  Use logic or inconsistencies to prove your points.  Must I debate both sides?  I’m actually doing a better job of making a case for you than you are.

Well when you posted it you forgot that it doesn’t say that symmetry and proportion are not factors in any of the rounds.  It also said why the first round is often called the symmetry round.  These names didn’t come out of the sky.  Your belief that they did is puzzling.  Your thought that different aspects or muscles cannot be hidden to some extent in different rounds or poses also doesn’t make sense to me.  I’m still trying to help you you see.  You really don’t make any points besides typing that I’m wrong.  

If the guy with nowhere near the best symmetry always won the symmetry round then chances are the system is flawed.  I’m not trying to learn on the fly.  As a competitive bodybuilder I kind of felt it was important to find out what I would be judged on over a decade ago.

You’re right.  I can’t comprehend this and I doubt anyone else can with any level of certainty.  

Dorian wasn’t always the most muscular but he always ranked high in this criteria.  I actually told you in the beginning that this is what he had over most of his competitors.  He was usually the biggest guy onstage.  He usually had some of the best conditioning on the stage but probably only had the best conditioning in the show twice.  His symmetry didn’t necessarily suck.  His symmetry when compared to Shawn Ray, Chris Cormier, Charles Clairmonte, Flex Wheeler, Kevin Levrone, Mike Francois, Aaron Baker, Vince Taylor or Lee Lebrada always ranked lower.  Bodybuilding is scored on a ranking system.  Dorian dominated because the judges decided to make him the standard instead of judging the criteria.  They looked at it as whose physique has bettered the reigning Mr. Olympia.  Dorian’s or Ronnie or Jay is going to have an advantage when they were last year’s ideal.  The competitors realize this and that’s why guys like Cutler or James didn’t seek to improve their physiques.  They tried to do what they had to do to beat the reigning champ.  Nasser and Flex did the same thing to try to hunt down  Dorian.  Both were better before they tried to play the size race with Dorian.  Shawn didn’t play the game.  He tried to tweak a near flawless physique to become closer to what he saw as ideal.  I’ve backed everything up that I’ve typed.  You have backed little up even when you’ve been asked repeatedly.  You may know how to argue but if that’s true then you’re showing that you’re better at giving up.



I can spell it out to you if you’re not understanding.  Shawn didn’t have a torn biceps.  He didn’t have calves that were noticeably bigger than his upper arms.  Shawn didn’t have a less dramatic taper or a protruding abdomen from the side.  Shawn’s calves didn’t make his upper legs look small.  Shawn didn’t have a chest that lacked shape in certain areas.  He didn’t have arms that lacked detail from certain angles.  Shawn didn’t have inferior muscle shape in almost every muscle group.

Once again you’re right that I can’t comprehend what you’ve typed.  I don’t know if you didn’t pay attention in the 5th grade or grew up in a country where English wasn’t spoken.  I’ve competed and looked at my scorecard before so I don’t have to google that.  You may not have pretended that he didn’t have major weaknesses but you sure avoided the subject and wanted me to spell everything out for you.  The question here really is if a competitor places in the bottom half of a major judging criteria, how much better in everything else does he have to be to offset his weakness.  I’d say he has to be quite a bit better in everything else to make up for his weakness.  Being a little more conditioned than all but 3 competitors and slightly bigger than the ones that owned you in a weakness doesn’t equate to domination.  


How does a guy with college degrees that’s talked to judges about judging, eaten dinner with a judge, read critiques from judges and been in or around the scene for the biggest part of his life not have the slightest clue about how contests are judged?  You haven’t established that so if we use logic that means you’ve got a track record for not being able to prove things you think you have.  What actual fact don’t I know?  That feet are being judged?  That’s the only thing that I learned from all of this.  You haven’t the ability to make me look stupid.  You are a mental midget compared to me and the pages of this thread are evidence.  You appear to have way more time on your hands and more value as a person placed on your getbig posts than I do.  If I fail to respond to something it will be due to this inequality, not my ignorance.

You can’t even comprehend what you’ve typed.  Your answer for how things are judged was pretty much Bill Dobbins’s article.  Are you Bill Dobbins?  You didn’t ask me to tell you the definition of symmetry.  You typed that you were interested in hearing my thoughts.  I made fun of that.  Dorian’s body lacked actual symmetry.  He didn’t have 2 torn biceps.   If you drew a line down the middle of Shawn’s body, each side looked almost identical.  Dorian’s didn’t.  Dorian’s body lacked the flow that Shawn’s had.  This can also be referred to symmetry.  What definition of symmetry do you think Dorian had over Shawn?  Post a thread named Dorian had better symmetry than Shawn Ray and see what percentage agree.  We both know that people that disagree will be the overwhelming majority.


I didn’t modify the question.  You couldn’t answer it in the beginning and you still can’t.


What don’t I get?  That you have no way to answer my questions and still prove your point?


He met some of the criteria.  He was not the most symmetrical.  He wasn’t the best conditioned a lot of times.  He wasn’t the most muscular.  He was near the top on a lot of the criteria.  You still can’t explain how Dorian had perfect scores in a round where symmetry is key.  The only argument here is how much you value each aspect.  If someone is missing an arm but is the best at everything else, how much should the lack of an arm hurt them.  How much should being the 10th best in a major judging category hurt their overall ranking?



Say I want to discuss something, why would I go to a near illiterate person who can’t comprehend what he’s typed or make a point to save his life?  It has also probably become rather obvious to you that you could be right in almost anything but due to your inferior ability to debate, fail to prove any point.


Who posted the Dobbins article because you obviously don’t agree with it.  His stance was that while everything may be judged in every round, the first round that is referred to as the symmetry round by many is called that because in the relaxed poses asymmetry and imbalances are harder to obscure.  By the way muscle dryness would be in reference to a dehydrated muscle which would be flat and probably show little detail.  Is this what you mean?  I don’t think it is.  This is just another example of you lacking articulation needed for a debate.  You have to type exactly what you mean.


You keep typing that he satisfied all of the criteria better yet you can’t conceed that he obviously didn’t have the best symmetry.  Without this you pretty much lose anyone that was going to agree with you.  It shows that you refuse to see the truth.  


Dorian doesn’t have better balance or proportions than Shawn, Kevin or Flex.  His physique lacked their flow.  Why is it that people look at Shawn and think that his physique looks better than Dorian’s? I’m not really even saying that Dorian didn’t deserve to win some of the time.  What I’m saying is that his symmetry wasn’t ranked anywhere close to that and in a round where his flaws were extremely obvious, he should not have been ranked where he was.  Some of the years he probably could overcome his weaknesses but pretending he didn’t have the weaknesses compared to these competitors isn’t being truthful.

If the way I posted that isn't decipherable let me know and I'll fix it.

Again, in the relaxed poses where muscularity and conditioning are less obvious and symmetry and flaws are more apparent, how does Dorian end up in the top 3 in most of his contests?


No I don’t agree with you about height being a judging factor.  Read my post again if you have doubts about what you read.  What’s a factor is what one brings to the table.  Height may play a part in how that was reached but onstage it doesn’t really matter.  I hope this makes sense.  If it doesn’t yet, let me know and I can explain it a different way.



I’m ignorant about some things.  Bodybuilding isn’t one of them.  I’m biased in believing that the best physique should win.  Do you understand what that means?  If not, let me know and I’ll explain this a different way too.  Dorian said something like that in a Flex.  He also backed it up with something about Flex’s work ethic. 


It isn’t where I get lost.  It is the one attribute I can give Dorian where he actually should belong in the top 3.  Without that you lose your argument completely.  If you want to start a new thread and name it who thinks Dorian Yates had better symmetry and proportion than Shawn, Kevin or Flex its fine with me.  Your typing is barely comprehendible in that paragraph/sentence.  If English isn’t your first language you’re doing pretty well though.


Notice how you don't answer some of the questions I ask?  It doesn't make for much of a debate now does it?  Once again, according to the current judging criteria, height should not be a judging factor.  Now does height have something to do with how a certain physique looks?  Sure.  Do yourself a favor and take an English class before you type something on a public forum to prevent yourself from looking retarded or like English is a language you picked up in this decade.

So if the only thing that’s different is the names of the rounds then why does the same physique rank differently in different rounds?  The only real point you can make is on how much symmetry is judged.  If it is only 5% of the determining factor then Dorian was probably placed where he should have been but it if is closer to 30% then he's going to have to blow people away a lot more in the other judging criteria which he didn't. 


Who are the competitors standing with in the posing round?  Muscle length, balance and proportion generally suck as people become too tall.  There is a reason that the taller competitors never make it to the pros in the first place.  Do you think that guys over 6 feet tall just aren’t interested in bodybuilding?  Taller guys can carry more bulk and still not look as big.  That’s much more of an issue in bodybuilding than the few that outgrow their frames.


I’ll admit I’m biased.  I believe the best looking physique should win.  Dorian had a great physique but rarely did he have the best looking physique onstage.  He even once said something like if he could have any physique, he’d pick Flex’s.  He realized Flex had certain things that he could never achieve no matter how hard he tried.  You are brainwashed because you think size is the defining factor of a physique.  You bringing up height shows you lack the ability to assess a physique.  If the IFBB thought height was as big of an issue as you do, they’d bring back height classes.