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1  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: June 02, 2005, 07:51:24 AM
on palumbo the skin around the abdominal reagion looks wierd...bumpy..aged??

..and there is no seperation from muscle to muscle...its like someone smeared em all over his body..



the skin is actually the largest human organ, and gh causes it to thicken considerably as well.
2  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Nutrition, Products & Supplements / Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions! on: April 01, 2005, 01:50:18 PM
apparently congress re-enacted its initial moronic act and just banned specific compounds rather than anything androgen.  there are some interesting new androgens being designed for release.  maybe they'll be more swiftly bannable but this is just getting sad.
3  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 26, 2005, 08:03:04 PM
i'd kill for the full text of this article  Shocked

http://www.smj.org.sa/PDFFiles/Nov04/14Dysregulation20040120.pdf


you're the man, asshole. Grin  time to go bury myself in it.  thanks so much for the help, and take care. Smiley
4  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 26, 2005, 01:53:15 PM
Is it possible that the receptors get shut down permanently through continous use? And that the receptors in the limbs gets shut down first? Hence causing the atrophy in legs and arms seen clearly in both Kovacs and Palumbo. Could the GH somehow be blamed?

sort-of.  it's probably a chain that looks something like this(independent of growth of bones & gut):

gh megadoses ->           fat cell necrosis          ->         insulin resistance -> diabetes + lipodystrophy -> limb atrophy
                                       (arrow down)
androgen megadoses -> hyperlipidemia + visceral adiposity ^


adiponectin probably mediates a lot of these flows, but i've just begun learning about that hormone.  apparently the imbalance is only temporary, and goes away when gh is ceased, but the effects caused during the imbalance are permanent.  the reason limbs atrophy first is that the fat cells there are simply more vulnerable.  intra-muscular fat is important for muscle function and mass, and when insulin sensitivity drops your muscles everywhere will shrink.  think nicely marbled steak. Grin

i'd kill for the full text of this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15573230
5  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 26, 2005, 01:19:33 PM
YIP
Zack

oh, i try to be balanced and honest even when it goes against what i'm doing.  i've changed my stance on numerous substances, most particularly milk thistle.  it's the only way to make rational decisions.  i don't think anything i said here exactly supports palumboism, which is an amazing phenomenon.  Shocked

their heart and cardiovascular symptoms are due unquestionably to their severe use of steroids.  period.  this is the biggest and most dangerous side effect of androgens; it's growth of the left ventricle, high blood pressure, and hyperlipidemia all in one unholy melange of doom.  you can manage these side effects, particularly through megadoses of garlic and wise use of fish oil, mild diuretics, vitamin b5, and other drugs, but it's going to cause plenty of damage.  you won't find anyone on the hardcore board who denies this.  hell, one of our current threads is entitled, "any regrets?"  we know and acknowledge the risks, and like to frame our board in the context of safety first, as best you can when messing with these chemicals.

personally, i've often listened to NIN's "Hurt" while shooting...

that said, steroids will not lead to gut enlargement beyond increasing intra-abdominal adiposity, and certainly won't cause palumboism.

fyi, high protein diets are only dangerous if you have pre-existing kidney problems.  they're quite bad in that situation, but otherwise you'll be fine. Smiley
6  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 26, 2005, 12:03:58 PM
All this stuff is very funny.  But, I can't help feeling sorry for Palumbo.  He has f'd himself up bigtime.  I can't imagine what he will look like in 10 years (if he lives that long).

it's roughly the functional equivalent of extreme type 2 diabetes + really high cholesterol + acromegaly.  i think the second half (lives that long) is more important than the first (whether he looks okay).

i feel terrible for the guy too.  there's a thin line between passion and mental illness in our sport...
7  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 25, 2005, 04:13:16 PM
Now, I'm not tryin to diss anyone or get involved in the whole palumbo haten thing, but, I've been looking at that issue that causes stomach distension in a very simple way. 

How do almost all pros look when they first come on to the scene?  GREAT! Usually top-notch with symmetry and all.  Look at Ronnie when he first turned pro- 2000,  Or Titus when he was an amateur; amazing structure with nothing popping out in weird places, etc. 

Fast forward to 5-10 years later when the athlete makes a lot more money and has been on the scene for a while, and poof! The aesthetics are gone, along with a bigger face (yes it's true), and overall a much wider, thicker bone structure. 

If you look at the pros that were always good - and probably never went overboard with relying on "something new" to get the "new look", they never had that problem. ( Example: Ray, Levrone, and all of the pre GH/Slin bodybuilders).  If you also look at athletes with limited income - I'll use Darrem Charles as an example; he never had that type of problem. (neither did he ever make any drastic jumps in competitive bodyweight from year to year).  I'm pretty sure that genetic predisposition has something to do with it, however, that's a different story.  Seeing what happens to those that suffer from the complication, would you really leave the decision to use Gh/slin to chance of genetic predisposition? I know I wouldn't...

If you look at it closely, you'll find that the athletes that are cashing in, and making drastic jumps in bodyweight with evident GH/Insulin use are those with this complication.  I'm sure that we all noticed Flex Wheeler's gut in the later days of his career. I'm sure that wasn't there when he first came on the scene and in the comeback he make in '02. 

Ask yourself this, which pre 1985 bodybuilder had that complication?  None that I know of... What came onto the scene in the 90's and became more and more popular in the late 90's?  GH and Insulin right?  Which one is it?  I have no clue, but I think it would be wise to stay away from both.   

Personally, like I've stated, I  never used GH or Slin.  I've been bodybuilding for 8 years and my waist looks better and better every year i compete.  Yea yea, I'm not one of the biggest guys on stage, neither am I pro or even close yet, but honest to God - I'd rather have my physique than Say Kovacs's or Titus's, or even a '97 Dorian.  Jay cutler is starting to fall into that too. You can see it in his lower abdominals, and his waist is getting even wider.   

Take it as you will, the bottom line is that it's pretty evident that the issue arose after the increased use/abuse of GH/Slin. 

it's a combination of the two.  GH produces more IGF-I which upregulates insulin receptors and causes its own growth.  in-vitro tests have been performed on human intestinal cells and the combination of IGF-I + slin is most potent, followed by IGF-I+ slin + GH, followed by slin + GH, followed by GH, followed by slin, followed by IGF-I on its own.  go fig.  GH by itself is almost entirely for bone growth and so-called mushroom head; Grin IGF-I and slin won't do much here for various reasons.

whether lower doses of LR3IGF-I on its own causes any hypertrophy is debatable, and this might be a very good use of the drug.   what's also interesting is that the trophic effect is biphasic -- that is, there's a particular concentration where growth is optimally stimulated, and past there it actually gets *worse*.  how much worse further down the line, i don't know.  there's major synergy between slin and igf-i though on the trophy of the jejunum and duodenum.  we're talking 1+1=17 grade synergy. Grin

palumboism, however, is something entirely different than simple intestinal hypertrophy.  ronnie and jay get major guts but their muscles don't shrink and they still get stupid shredded around the midsection.  this is a separate phenomenon.
8  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 24, 2005, 12:01:31 AM
cripes, you guys are all useless. Grin

here's my best guess: excessive use of GH in particular causes a great degree of fat cell death, but a certain amount of fat is necessary to live, so palumboism is the adaptation.  severe gh abuse also leads to some amount of insulin resistance(which may be related to the changes in fat cells), another known part of the cause of lipodystrophy.  hyperlipidemia from androgens wouldn't help.  this would all mirror the lipoatrophy seen from PI and HAART, but with a different cause; in fact, part of the treatment for that form is, ironically, GH itself.

so the net effect of the lipoatrophy and lipogenesis would be the division and creation of the more hardy fat cells centrally located, as well as a loss of intra-muscular and peripheral fat.  some bodybuilders try to make up for this with large amounts of site oil (palumbo).  muscle groups where this can't be done well turn to twigs (forearms, thighs).

the so-called GH gut is probably more directly caused by slin and LR3IGF-I in serious dosages.  GH in particular actually can reduce the gut(at lower dosages) via downregulation of PPARgamma expression.  this same downregulation is part of what kills fat cells off.  LR3IGF-I increases muscle sensitivity and doesn't fiddle with the PPARgamma receptor like that; in fact, it can cause expression of PPARg mRNA.  so, it wouldn't cause palumboism the same way GH would, but it will lead to greater intestinal hyperplasia and hypertrophy.

now i'm crawling back to the hardcore board where i belong. Lips sealed
9  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / Re: investigating "palumboism" on: March 23, 2005, 01:24:34 AM
i'm not convinced there's that much materially different in the compounds available to or used by kovacs, palumbo & crew vs. jay & ronnie.  palumbo in particular prided himself on being pharmacologically astute, and look what happened to the guy. Cry

"receptors quitting" isn't a very good explanation, because receptors just don't really do that in most models.   rats are bioengineered with some very severe gh- and igf-related genetic disruptions that are worse than anything these guys could live through.

there's something in medicine that reeks of palumboism.  this isn't to suggest that this is what's happening to them.  but its causes have been heavily analyzed, and the effects of whatever they've used might be intersect at some point with what these drugs do.  the etiology of lipodystrophy in AIDS is unknown, but look at the lipodystrophy associated with HAART anti-retroviral therapy:

http://www.aegis.com/factshts/network/simple/lipodys.html

"The signs of lipodystrophy are a swollen belly along with loss of tissue from the face, arms and legs. The loss of fat from the face can give an appearance of sunken eyes and sticking-out cheekbones. The combination of extra fat around the belly and loss of tissue from the arms and legs can look similar to the effects of very poor nutrition. Lipodystrophy also looks a bit like wasting, which used to be a common problem in people with AIDS."

insulin resistance and hyperlipidemia are both heavily associated with lipodystrophy, the first of which can be a side of GH abuse.  one possible explanation may simply be they've used far too much GH, but i don't buy it -- acromegaly, even untreated, certainly doesn't lead to a phenotype anything like... that. Lips sealed
10  Getbig Main Boards / Gossip & Opinions / investigating "palumboism" on: March 21, 2005, 09:44:22 PM
hello general, i'm a resident jackass from your excellent hardcore section here at getbig.  if it applies to you, you should visit it more often.  there are many smart people eager to help and more insight and research are always valuable. Grin

forum-pimping aside, i need your help.  i want to see if i can come up with an idea of what causes palumboism beyond "massive drug use". Tongue  to do so, i need to develop an exact symptomology, because i think it's something categorically different from what ronnie, jay, etc. develop.  i have a few hypotheses as to causes, but these are some symptoms i think i see:

a)  lipodystrophy, or abnormal fat distribution.  apparently there's reduced limbic fat but greater trunk and visceral fat.  this means arms and legs would still be very cut but your torso and abdomen in particular would always appear watery and bloated.  is this a good observation?

b)  muscle atrophy and wasting.  is it particular muscle groups that seem to get hit worse?  note that synthol use may mask some of the wasting in muscle groups where it can be used...

c)  bloated head.  this isn't so different from what ronnie et al have and is probably linked just to gh and not anything else.

d)  other symptoms?  anything particularly strange and interesting that all of them have in common?

big help everyone.  thank you.
11  Getbig Bodybuilding Boards / Nutrition, Products & Supplements / Re: Pro Hormones after Jan 22 Questions! on: January 19, 2005, 02:02:22 AM
i wish they'd come out with the stronger methylated biologically active hormones first so people wouldn't rip on anything that's not a traditional compound.  these drugs work, but weren't pursued pharmaceutically for various reasons, or because other alternatives were already available.  the ones that need conversion (like 4ad or androstenedione) are much less useful.

rick's advice -- and prognostications -- are excellent as always.
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