I am glad you clarified that.  I would now ask this.  Do these chiro's say they are experts or is that just a descriptor thrown out by you by what they say?  Would someone who has been through many years of #1 and #2, then decided to become a chiro, still be considered an expert?


My apologies then Joe, I misunderstood.  I don't think the term re-eval would be appropriate but rather a second opinion.  There are many orthopoedic tests that are simply just "pain present" dependent.  Some are cessation of pain dependent (Bakody's vs. Reverse Bakody's).  Any time you aren't 100% sure of your diagnosis, you refer out or do something to confirm or deny it.  In my opinion I take issue with a chiro who insists on an x-ray prior to treatment just to avoid a lawsuit.  There is no "medical necessity" in that.  Patients can deny any services they want.  Most don't understand this.  You may be discharged from care with that doctor, but you are in charge of what is done to you.


No, thank you very much....there is the door.

You made the statement that they come across as experts.  I am asking you who would be the expert.  You weren't specific in your comment, so how can I?


Exactly.  Have you ever seen a "MD's are worthless" thread?  No, simply put people think the MD's are without flaw.  Are above criticism.  I accept the fact my profession has some people that really do not belong in it.  That tarnish the name.  The same as Crossfit.  I have never said anything to the contrary.  When someone says that we don't diagnose, that we are glorified massage therapists...how do you expect me to respond other than pointing out personal examples where they are wrong.  People say go to your MD if you want a, b, or c diagnosed while bashing my profession.  That is when I point out the MD profession and the flaws with that.  Someone makes claims that we have no idea what research journals are or clinic reviews...I point out how prevalent they are in my profession.  More than 70% of all chiropractic therapy has research behind it.  Less than 25-30% of all surgical procedures have any research.


Exactly.  Unfortunately a chiro is expected to be a bigger miracle worker.  I speak from expereince on this.  I consistently get people in my office who have been in pain for years and years.  If the pain is gone completely in 2 - 3 visits, the treatment isn't working.  Add to that the patient who I say "you know, if you dropped about 15 - 20 lbs your low back would improve a lot faster".  They won't listen in most case.  Funny thing is that with Obamacare...your MD will be held to a different standard.  If they have too many patients with high BMI's they will actually get reimbursed less.  So, you will either be 'forced' to lose weight or your MD will discharge you so they don't have to risk losing income.

I realize that I should just avoid these kind of threads because it is a never ending thing.  Just like political and religious threads.  Some people will never change their minds even when presented with facts.  

My impression is that a number of techniques I do not recognize (not to say that they arent valid) but primarily I see that the guy is using FAR to much rotation in some of the cervical adjustments.  I personaly would NEVER do the adjustment for the TMJ like that.  I have no desire to stick my hands in a patients mouth (or any other hole for that matter).  Get them to an orthodontist.

You mentioned a chiro and not being an expert in strength and conditioning.  I was pointing out how many online come across like they are and people listen to them without seeing them.  So, what makes someone an expert on strength and conditioning?

So someone who registers anonymously on a message board can be better believed they are an expert on strength training?

What about a chiro who has his CSCS cert?  Or a chiro who has powerlifting world records?  Or a chiro that has competic in olympic lifting?  Nope, those guys wouldn't know anything about strength and conditioning.

What you fully (or partially) expect and what you actually get are two different things.  Don't know if you have learned that in life yet or not.  You don't control a debate either.  I offered a counterpoint to your statement and you avoided it.  Its either from lack of knowlegde on the counter point or the fact that you realize my counterpoint was accurate.  Maybe I should say that avoidance in any form is typical of a cult leader.  So, now we both are cult leaders.  Yay! Oh, and I never once thought I was in control of anything.  On the otherhand, you weren't either.  Have a blessed day.  May god be with you and cure all that ails you.

Some have diplomates in S&C as well as nutrition, so why can't they do that?  I believe my experience and education is well served to discuss nutrition with a patient.  I practice what I preach.  Funny thing, sending someone to a Registered Dietitian is even more pointless.  You might as well just say "Eat 60% of your diet from carbohydrates.  Have milk, cheese, nuts, and legumes for your protein.  Make sure you don't get more then 1/2 your bodyweight in protein otherwise you will end up with kidney failure". 

I do agree with you that the whole nutritional stuff at an office is a little out of hand.  Guess what though...my HRT Doc tried to sell me on an 'anti-estrogen' supplement.  Main ingredient : chrysin.  So, I will say it once again...a lot of things people are bashing my profession for is the same stuff done by MD's.

I don't have to read my reply as I am the one who wrote it.  Where did I back up your argument?  You claim above about treatment for profit is pretty much not limited to chiro, but to every medical profession.  Hello?  Seriously?  Show me ONE, just ONE medical professional that WON'T treat for profit.  The next time you go to a doctor appointment, ask them what services they will be billing for.  Ask them the codes they will be submitting to your insurance company.  I have seen my own bills when I have gone to a doctor and let me tell you.  The E/M codes they submitted were absolutely incorrect.  Billing out for a 99204 exam on me when they never reached the proper time component, nor satisfied the major components necessary to justify the use of that code.   The example I gave above showed almost the opposite.  I treated the girl one time and referred her to another health professional.  Thats not over treating.  Thats not milking her insurance.  The MD who she saw 2 - 3 times before me kept telling her to "just ice" it.  Hmmm.  Great job diagnosing it on his part.

Please point out my lack of professionalism.  I welcome it.  I challenge you to find it.  Let me tell you something about that visit too.  I came in when my office was normally closed.  I did not bill them for the taping nor the exam.  Something I was well within my right to do.  They were charged for the adjustment which was deemed necessary by me as the medical professional.  I don't recall you being there at the time of service to offer up an alternative opinion.  I do not make any money on her seeing the podiatrist, nor her getting an ultrasound, and certainly not out of the surgery if needed.  

I actually take offense to your insinuation that I had anything other than the patients best interest in mind.  

I guess all the patients I have helped are just figments of my imagination.  Debating with someone like you is pointless to me.  Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?  Want me to list off ten things that aren't 100%...or even 50% cured with MD's?  How about the fact that carpal tunnel surgery has the HIGHEST failure rate of any surgery?  I believe it's somewhere in the 60-70% failure rate.  That it is also is the most repeated.  Yeah, we are scammers.   

Joe, you couldn't be more wrong.  ROM testing, manual muscle testing, sensory, etc.  Thats neurological testing that is absolutely within the scope of my license.  X-ray is NOT always the initial study that is warranted.  People think you IMMEDIATELY refer to an ortho. 

I see no questions....

Hey, just a little tidbit for you.  A patient of mine brought her daughter in for some right knee pain (superior to patella and along the inferior-lateral corner).  After some testing I found she has an inflamed Hoffa's fat pad.  In addition, she had a positive Obers test on the  right indicating IT band contracture.  Then the mom mentioned a strange popping in the daughters right foot.  I knew she had a history of ankle sprains, so in the process of examination I felt the popping.  Was either an extensor tendon or a peroneal tendon.  I settled on peroneal tendon.  In addition, the cuboid was sitting more dorsal and so I adjusted that.  Did it take care of the dislocation?  Nope, that wasn't the desired outcome.  In any event, the Dx for this patient :

719.46
728.89
726.79
729.1

Sending her to a podiatrist confirmed my suspicion of dislocation.  They are going to do an ultra sound on her and most likely there is going to be a surgical consult.  Oh, did I mention that in the last couple of months her MD said for her to just ice it if it hurts?

Of course, I really not telling the truth...I didn't diagnose, I just went in, cracked and twisted her up, gave the patient an over priced massage, caused permanent damage, and laughed all the way to the bank.   

Ok 


You aren't necessarily moving the disc.  The discs are kept healthy through a process called imbibition.  Compressive along with flexion/extension forces cause this.  When the spinal joints are fixated, the discs will not be able to stay healthy and thus will be more suseptible to damage from forces acting at the spinal joint that it would normally be able to sustain.  Are you aware that most people would probably NOT get to the point of a herniation if they didn't have the "it will go away" or "it's not that bad" mentality?

Without sounding like a broken record, there are good Drs and bad ones.  Completely missing something is not foreign to an MD.  No matter what the profession.  An MRI is not the be-all, end-all diagnostic tool.  If it was, there wouldn't be a need for pre authorization.  In case you aren't aware, some insurance companies require a healthcare professional to treat a person for a few visits before an MRI is granted.  Are you comfortable with MD's that will look at someone for maybe 5 mins and then simply say "Here is a script for some pain killers and anti-inflammatories".  Is that being thorough?  Not really.  The term 'serious issues' is kind of relative, don't you think?  I order about 3 - 5 MRI's a month.  You are right, I don't make money off them.  Why should I care?  Not all MD's have them in their offices either.  They don't make money on the MRI.  Whats your point with that?  I take some real offense to you claiming that 'they only want to crack you rather than diagnose you'.  Have you ever seen any of your diagnosis codes from the MD?  Probably not.  

Buffd - so, the allopathic industry has a 100% cure rate?  I have never said not to take drugs.  Show me someone who has been "cured" of rhematoid arthirtis.  Great track record.

No clue in the world whatthe hell he was trying to do.  I have heard MANY stories from patients.  EVERY...and I mean EVERY patient I adjust for the first time I explain what I will be doing.  I don't care if you have been going to one for many years.  Its a habit and I feel better knowing I am explaining everything.  Someone might not.  One patient told me that with a side posture adjustment his old chiro (female) would literally yank his pants downto contact the "appropriate" segment of the sacrum.  ((shaking head))

Thanks for the words.  I know the history you have with my profession, and that above is a great example why I respect you so much.  If you haven't gotten an MRI of those shoulders, get one.  Find out whats going on.  Labrum tears are not the quickest to heal.  There are a number of options out there for treatment.  Like I said above, if a chiro suspects it and just wants to charge right in and adjust without doing any kind of assessment.  Kindly thank them for their time and leave.  I will be more than happy to list out the orthopoedic tests the chiro should have done if they suspect a rotator tear as well as labrum tear.

Silk - exactly.  Thats what I am saying.  Soft tissue supports the joints, so thats where the chiro comes in.  Dysfunction in a joint from compromised soft tissue is evident in a lot of things we treat.  The muscle most responsible for cervical stabilty (up to 40%) is the longus colli muscle.  Weaken that sucker (forward head posture/anterior head carriage) and you displace the natural center of gravity in the neck and you will start to see spurring of the bones as well as reduction in disc height.  Thats biomechanics and the simple physiology of the body.

Well, my father went through it all.  Didn't help.  We were not really being given a prognosis on his condition from the head doctor so my sister stepped in and fired him.  She requested another one and this one came in, looked all his info and basically said to him that if what we were doing had not worked it probably wouldn't work.  He could stay in the hospital and they could make him comfortable.  He said he would not spend his last days there and wanted to go home.  We got one more week with him.  I feel for you.  There is no cruelty or bad intent in this next statement.  Enjoy the time you have with her.  Nothing is going to prepare you for when she is gone.  I do not know how close you are to her, but my father and I were very close.  I can not write this with out tearing up...but I admire him for making the choice he did and for also enduring all he did with the treatments.  I am not sure I would be as strong in the face of such piss poor odds.  So, people can bag on chiropractic as not being legit...but let me ask this.  How much money has gone into cancer research?  Are we even one step closer to doing anything to stop people like us from losing the people so close to us?  I personally don't see it.

Its faster to damage your spinal cord by doing Crossfit...according to Uberman.  You are welcome in advance.

I speak from experience in that my father had lung, brain, and stomach.  If her diet is HIGH in carbohydrates...step in and see what you can do.  Everyone bags on Layne Norton but he was the one who actually talked to a little about this...and then connected me with a very prominent cancer researcher in Florida.  Cancer cells are obligate users of sugar.  So, why give them something that they can thrive on?  My father was diagnosed with stage 4...so there wasn't a whole lot that could be done.

From my experience...if there is even the SLIGHTEST thought there is a tear in the rotator cuff, I order an MRI and get that before ANY therapy is done.  If any chiro says that adjusting the shoulder will directly heal the tear...ask them to explain why.  Adjusting the joint will help, but the actual tear will require time and rehab exercises (of which the chiro SHOULD be able to teach you and have you do before or after adjusting anything)

Sorry about your mom.  Question for you if you don't mind.  Right now, would you say her diet is primarily carbs?  Just indulge me on this.

No kidding.  Thats not the point.  There was no bickering back and forth between Tiger and Fuzzy prior to the comment though.  The press conferance with Sergio was a joke.

When asked if he would have dinner with Tiger Woods at next month's U.S. Open at Merion, Sergia Garcia responded by saying : "We will have him round every night. We will serve fried chicken."

Wow...I guess this is a case when "Keeping it real goes wrong" for a spanish guy

LOL @ the simpleton who will try and debate me and then pull out the usual "you must love the cock" retort

Why would Chiro be offended?  Neither he nor I "THINK" chiropractors are legit.

LOL @ the guy who thinks everything is an argument. 

Its not a matter of right or wrong.  It is what it is. 

What you just described is gaining strength.  Like it or not, it is getting stronger.  What do you think strength means?  You body adapted by becoming more efficient.  Be it by recruitment of motor units, handling metabolic waste, turn over of ADP into ATP, etc.