Author Topic: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE  (Read 2647 times)

Colossus_500

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PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« on: June 22, 2007, 10:29:20 AM »
What are your thoughts on this piece?

Reflections on patriotism

Reminiscing about his opposition to the Spanish-American War, Samuel Clemens, better known as Mark Twain, wrote in his diary for 1905-06, “There are two kinds of patriotism: monarchical patriotism and republican patriotism.” He continued, “In the one case the government and the king may rightfully furnish you with notions of patriotism; in the other, neither the government nor the entire nation is privileged to dictate to any individual what the form of his patriotism shall be. The Gospel of the Monarchical Patriotism is: ‘The King can do no wrong.’ We have adopted it with all its servility, with an unimportant change in the wording: ‘Our country, right or wrong!”’ Sadly, Clemens’ insights into patriotism has turned to cynicism. Patriotism is, he concludes, a “grotesque and laughable word.”

Contrary to what “the father of American literature” suggests, American patriotism is not jingoism: Waving a flag no more makes a man a patriot than waving his arms makes him a bird. Yet worse than jingoism are attempts to recast patriotism as unquestioning loyalty to the state. If true patriotism is not jingoistic, neither is it nationalistic.

Clemens’ contemporary, Walt Whitman, erred by construing patriotism as nationalism, concluding in his famed lecture “Death of Abraham Lincoln” that “battles, martyrs, agonies, blood, even assassination, should so condense—perhaps only really, lastingly condense—a Nationality.” Absent from Whitman’s words is the reality that American patriotism revolves around a set of ideas, setting it apart from the older, blood-and-soil nationalism of Europe by much more than an ocean.

So, how do we understand American patriotism without slipping into Clemens’ patriotism-as-jingoism cynicism, or Whitman’s patriotism-as-nationalism nostalgia? Or, as George Washington warned, how do we “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism”?

J. Gresham Machen, a rough contemporary of both Clemens and Whitman, weighed these questions carefully. As a theologian and a minister, Machen never set patriotism at the heart of his work, yet from his early days as a YMCA volunteer on the front lines in the First World War (he did not think it appropriate for a minister to be a combatant), he pondered deeply and frequently the nature of patriotism in the modern world.

Machen led the movement against progressivism in theology at Princeton Seminary in the 1920s and then went on to found both a seminary and a Presbyterian denomination. It is no coincidence that one of the century’s most profound (if ignored) thinkers on American patriotism was also in the vanguard of the battle against theological liberalism in its earliest days.

In his 1919 chapel address at Princeton Seminary, “The Church in the War,” Machen addressed this very issue. As men fought and died amid the horrors of WWI, he observed that American religion had taken a turn for the worse: “Men have trusted for their own salvation and for the hope of the world in the merit of their own self-sacrifice rather than in the one act of sacrifice which was accomplished some nineteen hundred years ago by Jesus Christ.”

The sacrifice made by American soldiers in the cause of liberty is not to be diminished, said Machen—far from it. Their sacrifice “deserves not less but more honor than they are receiving from their fellow citizens.” However, such sacrifice is not redemptive. To say otherwise is not patriotism, but idolatry. The seminary’s failure to grasp this would lead Machen to conclude privately, “Princeton is a hotbed of patriotic enthusiasm and military ardor, which makes me feel like a man without a country.”

Yet idolatry in the name of patriotism—what Machen described as “modern paganism” —did not begin or end with World War I. He expanded upon this idea in his 1931 essay “Christianity and Liberty.” Even in 1931, Machen remarked that the term “liberty” (much less “patriotism”), sadly, had been termed archaic. “The real indictment against the modern world is that by the modern world human liberty is being destroyed.”

In the modern world, the ideal of the state as the guardian of liberty was replaced with the concept of the utilitarian government: from the advent of a federal Department of Education in the United States (instead of “all sorts of queer private schools and parochial schools to confuse the mind of youth,” as Machen wrote) to Italy’s example, where “Mussolini is thought to be a benefactor of the race because, although liberty of speech is destroyed in Italy, the streets of Italian cities are clean.”

The examples of liberty surrendered, says Machen, are endless. He reinforced this sentiment in his 1937 classic, The Christian View of Man, in which he showed that liberty and patriotism—as one would expect—are inextricably linked. Here, Machen expressed his concern over a society increasingly detached from a morality and law rooted in the Word of God. “Everywhere,” he wrote, “tyranny is stalking through the earth, and decadence disguised under a hundred newfangled and high-sounding names.”

“What shall be done about it,” Machen asked prophetically, “to prevent [man] from destroying himself, for example, by another world war?” Patriotism, he said, lies at the heart of that answer.

We must, however, be wary of hollow and dangerous imitations. “Patriotism,” said the great English author and lexicographer Samuel Johnson, “is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” Likewise, said Machen, for those tyrants who would direct patriotism away from the ideals of liberty and toward the absolutized state, as in “Hitlerized Germany” or the “march of communism.” “A thousand nostrums are being brought to our attention, different in many particulars but all alike in being destructive of that civil and religious liberty which our fathers won at such cost,” he warned. “Such measures will never accomplish even the end that they have in view. Patriotism can never be implanted in people’s hearts by force. The attempt to do that serves only to crush out patriotism when it is already there.”

In other words, true patriotism is inseparable from liberty, and “liberty under the law of God,” said Machen, is the key to the preservation of a free society. We must, he said, “get rid of this notion that judges and juries exist only for the utilitarian purpose of the protection of society.” Rather, he posits, “They exist for the purposes of justice.”

Patriotism, liberty and God’s moral order: These ideas are utterly inseparable, together forming the foundation of our nation. Patriotism cannot be separated from liberty, just as liberty cannot be separated from God’s law and justice, lest both become perverted, meaningless or even dangerous.

Decker

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 10:52:56 AM »
I really admire Machen's use of "idolatry".  In my opinion, not only is idolatry a corruptor of patriotism but it also lies at the heart of the problem with organized religion in general.  In my view, get rid of the crosses, get rid of the cathedrals, get rid of slavish repitition of prayer, get rid of the saints, get rid of the virgin mary, get rid of the pope and get rid of any religious icon/symbol emblematic of the Spirit.

As for patriotism, well, life-liberty-and the pursuit of happiness are what we are about and why we choose to fight (unless corrupt people like Bush are in office).

Our way of life is what inspires patriotism.  All else is trivial.

On the other hand, I tend to agree with Nietzsche's view of nationalism: 

"It is so small-townish," he says in his Schopenhauer als Erzieher (Schopenhauer as an Educator) "to make oneself duty-bound to opinions which no longer bind one a few hundred miles away. Orient and Occident are strokes of chalk which someone draws before our eyes to make fools of our timidity. I will make the attempt to come to freedom, the young soul says to itself; and then should it be hindered because accidentally two nations hate and fight each other, or because an ocean lies between two parts of the earth, or because there a religion is taught which did not exist a few thousand years previously?"

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 12:14:47 PM »
I really admire Machen's use of "idolatry".  In my opinion, not only is idolatry a corruptor of patriotism but it also lies at the heart of the problem with organized religion in general.  In my view, get rid of the crosses, get rid of the cathedrals, get rid of slavish repitition of prayer, get rid of the saints, get rid of the virgin mary, get rid of the pope and get rid of any religious icon/symbol emblematic of the Spirit.

As for patriotism, well, life-liberty-and the pursuit of happiness are what we are about and why we choose to fight (unless corrupt people like Bush are in office).

Our way of life is what inspires patriotism.  All else is trivial.

On the other hand, I tend to agree with Nietzsche's view of nationalism: 

"It is so small-townish," he says in his Schopenhauer als Erzieher (Schopenhauer as an Educator) "to make oneself duty-bound to opinions which no longer bind one a few hundred miles away. Orient and Occident are strokes of chalk which someone draws before our eyes to make fools of our timidity. I will make the attempt to come to freedom, the young soul says to itself; and then should it be hindered because accidentally two nations hate and fight each other, or because an ocean lies between two parts of the earth, or because there a religion is taught which did not exist a few thousand years previously?"
Thanks for reading the article, bro. 

Didn't Nietzsche commit suicide?  I think Ravi Zacharias sums up Nietzche and the "sheep" of his mindset when he said:

when.... "Nietzsche had announced the death of God. He then proceeded to resurrect a newfangled, self-defined value. for ethics, he proclaimed, had been buried with God. Out of the ash heap and rubble of atheistic thinking he refashioned an autonomous man, with no heaven and a new earth—a man unaccountable to a higher moral law, for there was no more a moral law giver. "Values." he called it, when in actuality a deadly devaluation had taken place and the laws of authority had shifted from an objectively revealed moral law to a subjective world where each one does what is right in his or her own eyes.

You may have noticed a trend in university curricula. Once there was a discipline called theology; now they call it religion. The reason is plain. Theology begins with God, religion with man. The same dethroning has taken place with ethics. In our "salvation by survey" society, values are now defined with fluidity, never finding a level except in each individual mind. Words flow in speeches, punctuated by "values" they have no point of reference, and hence, no possibility for debate."


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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2007, 10:53:45 PM »
Great article Colossus!  
w

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 08:24:34 AM »
Great article Colossus!  
Thanks, Jag.   :)

Decker

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 12:10:52 PM »
Thanks for reading the article, bro. 

Didn't Nietzsche commit suicide?  I think Ravi Zacharias sums up Nietzche and the "sheep" of his mindset when he said:

when.... "Nietzsche had announced the death of God. He then proceeded to resurrect a newfangled, self-defined value. for ethics, he proclaimed, had been buried with God. Out of the ash heap and rubble of atheistic thinking he refashioned an autonomous man, with no heaven and a new earth—a man unaccountable to a higher moral law, for there was no more a moral law giver. "Values." he called it, when in actuality a deadly devaluation had taken place and the laws of authority had shifted from an objectively revealed moral law to a subjective world where each one does what is right in his or her own eyes.

You may have noticed a trend in university curricula. Once there was a discipline called theology; now they call it religion. The reason is plain. Theology begins with God, religion with man. The same dethroning has taken place with ethics. In our "salvation by survey" society, values are now defined with fluidity, never finding a level except in each individual mind. Words flow in speeches, punctuated by "values" they have no point of reference, and hence, no possibility for debate."


The article was very good.

The posting on Nietzsche...well, he certainly was no solipsist.  Almost every time I see someone try to summarize Nietzsche's thinking, he/she invariably gets it wrong and that is plainly the case here.

Nietzsche did not commit suicied rather he spent the last years of his life bed-ridden and completely insane.  The most popular cause for that was that he had advanced syphilis.

He was a mind on par with Einstein.  A level of genius still not fully appreciated.

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 12:26:14 PM »
The article was very good.

The posting on Nietzsche...well, he certainly was no solipsist.  Almost every time I see someone try to summarize Nietzsche's thinking, he/she invariably gets it wrong and that is plainly the case here.

Nietzsche did not commit suicied rather he spent the last years of his life bed-ridden and completely insane.  The most popular cause for that was that he had advanced syphilis.
I stand corrected. Nietzsche did, in fact, go insane due to the affliction of syphilis.   Sorry about that.


He was a mind on par with Einstein.  A level of genius still not fully appreciated.
as were the likes of these great scientists who happend to be believers (Newton, Pasteur, Linnaeus, Faraday, Pascal, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, and Kepler.  I'm certain that there are quite a few more)


Decker

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 01:05:01 PM »
I stand corrected. Nietzsche did, in fact, go insane due to the affliction of syphilis.   Sorry about that.

as were the likes of these great scientists who happend to be believers (Newton, Pasteur, Linnaeus, Faraday, Pascal, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, and Kepler.  I'm certain that there are quite a few more)


Einstein believed in God.  But he thought the very idea of having a personal relationship with god was pure delusion.  Many of our best minds today are religious folk.  Remember I mentioned Paul Davies, author of the Mind of God or God and the New Physics....he's as close to a proponent of ID as it gets without crossing the line and he's clearly a religious guy.  Stephen Hawking believes in God the way Einstein did.   

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 01:11:14 PM »
Einstein believed in God.  But he thought the very idea of having a personal relationship with god was pure delusion.  Many of our best minds today are religious folk.  Remember I mentioned Paul Davies, author of the Mind of God or God and the New Physics....he's as close to a proponent of ID as it gets without crossing the line and he's clearly a religious guy.  Stephen Hawking believes in God the way Einstein did.   
That's a concept I cannot understand - believing in God yet not having a personal relationship with Him.  I mean, I can understand it on a certain level... in the sense that they would acknowledge that their is a higher being that created us and the world around us.  But I don't get how you don't try to make that connection personally. 

Would you classify yourself in that same category, or do you have an intimate relationship with God?

Decker

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2007, 06:54:03 AM »
That's a concept I cannot understand - believing in God yet not having a personal relationship with Him.  I mean, I can understand it on a certain level... in the sense that they would acknowledge that their is a higher being that created us and the world around us.  But I don't get how you don't try to make that connection personally. 

Would you classify yourself in that same category, or do you have an intimate relationship with God?
It makes sense to me in that ascribing an ego to God would be to diminish him.  We are ego driven.  I can't say what God is but I have ideas on what He isn't. 

I have no personal relationship with God.  I've had a couple of moments in my life where I thought I had a flash of a view, but memory is so fleeting and day-to-day life chips away at mysticism.

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2007, 11:12:12 AM »
It makes sense to me in that ascribing an ego to God would be to diminish him.  We are ego driven.  I can't say what God is but I have ideas on what He isn't. 

I have no personal relationship with God.  I've had a couple of moments in my life where I thought I had a flash of a view, but memory is so fleeting and day-to-day life chips away at mysticism.
we're ego driven because we are fallen, but luckily for us Jesus came to die for the fallouts of our ego-drivenness.   ;D

OzmO

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 11:14:02 AM »
EGO = Edging God Out.

 ;)

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 02:04:40 PM »
EGO = Edging God Out.

 ;)
You're wrestling with yourself today, aren't you?   ???

OzmO

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 09:08:02 AM »
You're wrestling with yourself today, aren't you?   ???

What do you mean?


What i mean by EGO = Edging God Out, is that our ego's have a habit of not letting us see the divinity inside us.   The divinity that guides us to make the right decisions for the right reasons.  People's Ego prevents them from helping others as well as helping them selves.  The EGO analogy was from Pat Riley's (former Laker's coach) book.

Colossus_500

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 09:47:31 AM »
What do you mean?


What i mean by EGO = Edging God Out, is that our ego's have a habit of not letting us see the divinity inside us.   The divinity that guides us to make the right decisions for the right reasons.  People's Ego prevents them from helping others as well as helping them selves.  The EGO analogy was from Pat Riley's (former Laker's coach) book.
Oh!  I'm with you. 

Just reading all of your different posts yesterday (religious/atheists intelligence comparison, different levels of sin, etc), I just sensed that you were wrestling with some stuff.  I wasn't sure what was going on, so I asked. 

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Re: PATRIOT PERSPECTIVE
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 10:59:55 AM »
Oh!  I'm with you. 

Just reading all of your different posts yesterday (religious/atheists intelligence comparison, different levels of sin, etc), I just sensed that you were wrestling with some stuff.  I wasn't sure what was going on, so I asked. 

I just got done doing 4 seminars in the last 7 days in Denver and Cleveland.  I've been real busy and haven't taken the time to post and those were somethings i was thinking about.