Anybody read "Imperial Hubris"?

[bmacsys]

I read excerpts from it and it is depressing as fuck. We have and continue to shoot ourselves in the foot regarding this terrorist shit.

[Eyeball Chambers]

Interesting...

"The fundamental flaw in our thinking about Bin Laden is that "Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than what we do." Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society."

[Dos Equis]

Interesting...

"The fundamental flaw in our thinking about Bin Laden is that "Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than what we do." Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society."

Not true.  They would still hate us even if we didn't have a single service member on their lands. 

[CQ]

Interesting...

"The fundamental flaw in our thinking about Bin Laden is that "Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than what we do." Muslims are bothered by our modernity, democracy, and sexuality, but they are rarely spurred to action unless American forces encroach on their lands. It's American foreign policy that enrages Osama and al-Qaeda, not American culture and society."

I think this idea has merit. When traveling through Europe and the Caribbean, I note "America" can be quite disliked - not the people per se, nothing to do with the lifestyle - but the foreign policy. Much of the world seems to have issues with the foreign policy, not just the Middle East.

[Eyeball Chambers]

Not true.  They would still hate us even if we didn't have a single service member on their lands. 

Why, and how do you know?

[headhuntersix]

Its a bit of both....its easy to get these people riled up about anything especially without jobs and without much hope. Most are being crushed by their own governmnets and we're tied in some way to alot of them, especially in Saudi Arabia. Its its asy to blame the US, we're the biggest and most powerful and have our fingers in alot of pies.

[Dos Equis]

Why, and how do you know?

When in our recent history (last 50 to 100 years) have we not been hated by large segments of the Middle East?  It doesn't matter who is in office, who controls Congress, whether we have troops in the Middle East, etc.  If nothing else, the fact we are a friend of Israel makes us an enemy.  Those folks hate our way of life.  They hate the fact we exist.  Talk to people who have spent a lot of time there and they will likely tell you the same thing. 

[24KT]

When in our recent history (last 50 to 100 years) have we not been hated by large segments of the Middle East?  It doesn't matter who is in office, who controls Congress, whether we have troops in the Middle East, etc.  If nothing else, the fact we are a friend of Israel makes us an enemy.  Those folks hate our way of life.  They hate the fact we exist.  Talk to people who have spent a lot of time there and they will likely tell you the same thing. 

When in your last 50 years have you not been hated by large segments of the world, ...not just the Middle East?
It was in your last 50 years that the doctrine that has become known as your "foreign policy" has been preached.

I think it's easy to rationalize the hatred of others down to simple blamelessness on the part of those hated,
...but I tend to think the roots of the hostilities go far beyond mere jealousy and inexplicable hatred,
...a theory which to me is simply absurd!

[rockyfortune]

When in our recent history (last 50 to 100 years) have we not been hated by large segments of the Middle East?  It doesn't matter who is in office, who controls Congress, whether we have troops in the Middle East, etc.  If nothing else, the fact we are a friend of Israel makes us an enemy.  Those folks hate our way of life.  They hate the fact we exist.  Talk to people who have spent a lot of time there and they will likely tell you the same thing. 

Iran loved the united states in the 50's when we propped up the Shah...I guess I should say the Shah of Iran loved the united states...

[Decker]

Not true.  They would still hate us even if we didn't have a single service member on their lands. 

No Beach Bum.  He is correct about why we were attacked (and hated) by these middle easterners.  Here's a long list of examples of US intervention in their affairs (taken from Bin Laden's letter explaining why Al Qaeda attacked the US):

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

[rockyfortune]

You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.


i'll disagree with OBL on this...2.89 a gallon is not paltry!

[Decker]

You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.


i'll disagree with OBL on this...2.89 a gallon is not paltry!

hahahha....can't argue you with you there.

[Dos Equis]

but I tend to think the roots of the hostilities go far beyond mere jealousy and inexplicable hatred,

No it doesn't. 

[Dos Equis]

No Beach Bum.  He is correct about why we were attacked (and hated) by these middle easterners.  Here's a long list of examples of US intervention in their affairs (taken from Bin Laden's letter explaining why Al Qaeda attacked the US):

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Even if you assume OBL speaks for the Middle East, he actually supports one of the points I made:  "If nothing else, the fact we are a friend of Israel makes us an enemy."  See excerpts from your quote above.     

[CQ]

When people say that the US government/nation/foreign policy is criticized out of jealousy and because of the "freedoms" etc.........It always reminds me of when all the roided up 180lb masculine looking female bodybuilders with facial hair and deep voices say that everyone criticizes them as they are jealous......

Both groups want to blame envy without ever being able to see a clearer picture, that sometimes people dislike things for an actual reason.

Maybe some women are jealous and want to be huge muscle monsters, and maybe some women like to look feminine and pretty and just dislike the roided up look. Same with the US, maybe some people are jealous, others simply don't like their foreign policy.

[Dos Equis]

When people say that the US government/nation/foreign policy is criticized out of jealousy and because of the "freedoms" etc.........It always reminds me of when all the roided up 180lb masculine looking female bodybuilders with facial hair and deep voices say that everyone criticizes them as they are jealous......

Both groups want to blame envy without ever being able to see a clearer picture, that sometimes people dislike things for an actual reason.

Then there is the fact we lead the world in immigration.  People aren't flocking to Saudi Arabia or China.  They want to live in the greatest country in the history of the world. 

[ieffinhatecardio]

When people say that the US government/nation/foreign policy is criticized out of jealousy and because of the "freedoms" etc.........It always reminds me of when all the roided up 180lb masculine looking female bodybuilders with facial hair and deep voices say that everyone criticizes them as they are jealous......

Both groups want to blame envy without ever being able to see a clearer picture, that sometimes people dislike things for an actual reason.

Maybe some women are jealous and want to be huge muscle monsters, and maybe some women like to look feminine and pretty and just dislike the roided up look. Same with the US, maybe some people are jealous, others simply don't like their foreign policy.

That's a pretty good analogy, interesting analogy but it seems to work. I agree, it's too easy to dismiss the reasons as jealousy. It's far harder to take an honest assessment of our actions.

I think there are valid reasons for the U.S. being hated by so many people. I would just hope that those same people would realize that the actions of the Bush administration in many cases directly contradict what many if not most Americans think and believe. Hate the Government but not the people. We're two separate entities.

[CQ]

Then there is the fact we lead the world in immigration.  People aren't flocking to Saudi Arabia or China.  They want to live in the greatest country in the history of the world. 

LOL, funny thing is that only by sheer numbers. My island percentage wise has FAR greater immigration. There are 35,000 natives here, with 20,000 expatriates, they flock here for our tax free income, sun, sand, beaches and beautiful women[]. Almost 1/2 our resident population is foreign, far higher % wise than the US. Also, we have about 10,000 Americans here, while about 1,000 of my people are in the US.

I'm not saying that means my nation leads in immigration, it is like impossible to compare a place of 55,000 to a place of 300 million. And of course we only have 1,000 people while you guys have 10,000 here, 10 times the amount - but again the vast size/population difference makes it impossible to really compare. Statistics can be twisted and used however they are liked imo.

You think your nation is best, all opinion. I adore my baby island, and think it's best. It is all subjective. People aren't moving to either my island or the US cause they blow, they're moving cause they want to. It's more real to say, we both have great nations, albeit very different.

That's a pretty good analogy, interesting analogy but it seems to work. I agree, it's too easy to dismiss the reasons as jealousy. It's far harder to take an honest assessment of our actions.

I think there are valid reasons for the U.S. being hated by so many people. I would just hope that those same people would realize that the actions of the Bush administration in many cases directly contradict what many if not most Americans think and believe. Hate the Government but not the people. We're two separate entities.

Exactly. I hate any form of racism, xenophobia etc. I do not see what the average American has to do with bombing Iraq, and to blame them is not right. I am glad you liked the anology

[Dos Equis]

LOL, funny thing is that only by sheer numbers. My island percentage wise has FAR greater immigration. There are 35,000 natives here, with 20,000 expatriates, they flock here for our tax free income, sun, sand, beaches and beautiful women[]. Almost 1/2 our resident population is foreign, far higher % wise than the US. Also, we have about 10,000 Americans here, while about 1,000 of my people are in the US.

I'm not saying that means my nation leads in immigration, it is like impossible to compare a place of 55,000 to a place of 300 million. And of course we only have 1,000 people while you guys have 10,000 here, 10 times the amount - but again the vast size/population difference makes it impossible to really compare. Statistics can be twisted and used however they are liked imo.

You think your nation is best, all opinion. I adore my baby island, and think it's best. It is all subjective. People aren't moving to either my island or the US cause they blow, they're moving cause they want to. It's more real to say, we both have great nations, albeit very different.

No taxes?  Where do I sign up?     Sounds like my island, minus the taxes.     Do you guys restrict immigration?

I'm sure people from all over are always looking for tax havens. 

Yes this is all opinion.  We are the land of opportunity.  You can come here with literally nothing and become very successful.  We have tremendous freedom.     

[headhuntersix]

LOL, funny thing is that only by sheer numbers. My island percentage wise has FAR greater immigration. There are 35,000 natives here, with 20,000 expatriates, they flock here for our tax free income, sun, sand, beaches and beautiful women[]. Almost 1/2 our resident population is foreign, far higher % wise than the US. Also, we have about 10,000 Americans here, while about 1,000 of my people are in the US.

I'm not saying that means my nation leads in immigration, it is like impossible to compare a place of 55,000 to a place of 300 million. And of course we only have 1,000 people while you guys have 10,000 here, 10 times the amount - but again the vast size/population difference makes it impossible to really compare. Statistics can be twisted and used however they are liked imo.

You think your nation is best, all opinion. I adore my baby island, and think it's best. It is all subjective. People aren'tmoving to either my island or the US cause they blow, they're moving cause they want to. It's more real to say, we both have great nations, albeit very different.

Exactly. I hate any form of racism, xenophobia etc. I do not see what the average American has to do with bombing Iraq, and to blame them is not right. I am glad you liked the anology

Yeah CQ but I can't move to your Island until i work my ass off on my lump of rock first. I need to be able to afford your island. America gives the average and sometime the below average joe the ability to live in peace and prosperity. And because we get alot of average and below average joes here..i might need to move to your island to get some peace. Which island are we taking about.