To the atheists who insist that religion is dangerous...

[loco]

...and that the world would be safer without religion:

YouTube link to deadly school shootings
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/07/school.shooting/index.html

At least eight people were killed when an 18-year-old gunman opened fire at a school in Finland Wednesday, according to Finnish police...

...In the rambling text posted on the site, Auvinen said that he is "a cynical existentialist, anti-human humanist, anti-social social-Darwinist, realistic idealist and god-like atheist.

"I am prepared to fight and die for my cause," he wrote. "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."...

...Sipila said that Finland, which has a population of about five million, has around two million firearms, although gun laws are tough. "We do not know where he got it from," he said

[OzmO]

In all fairness there are plenty of people who do the something who are religious and for religious reasons.


Fact is though i believe if it wasn't for religion, at this point in our species evolution, we would fall in chaos.

[columbusdude82]

Ah yes... whenever religious people commit genocide, all the other members of the same religion rush to proclaim "That is not my god" or "That is not the TRUE Christianity" etc.

But non-superstitious people who do not believe in magic are for some reason blamed for all the crimes of communism, for instance, because Stalin and Mao were atheists. This is a variation on the same theme.

loco, this guy is guilty of the same thing as the religious murderer, lack of thinking, lack of reason, and general stupidity.

Yes, the world will be safer without superstition, and the quotes you highlight above have nothing to do with Darwinism and natural selection as understood in biology. (But you would know that if you only you took the trouble of educating yourself )

[loco]

In all fairness there are plenty of people who do the something who are religious and for religious reasons.


Fact is though i believe if it wasn't for religion, at this point in our species evolution, we would fall in chaos.

Ah yes... whenever religious people commit genocide, all the other members of the same religion rush to proclaim "That is not my god" or "That is not the TRUE Christianity" etc.

But non-superstitious people who do not believe in magic are for some reason blamed for all the crimes of communism, for instance, because Stalin and Mao were atheists. This is a variation on the same theme.

loco, this guy is guilty of the same thing as the religious murderer, lack of thinking, lack of reason, and general stupidity.

Yes, the world will be safer without superstition, and the quotes you highlight above have nothing to do with Darwinism and natural selection as understood in biology. (But you would know that if you only you took the trouble of educating yourself )

Both of you miss the point.  If you remove faith and religion from the world, you still have nut jobs like this one motivated not by religion, but motivated in this particular case by Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection, and motivated by a belief that there is no God.

[columbusdude82]

If you remove faith and religion from the world, you still have nut jobs like this one,

I agree.

in this particular case, motivated not by religion, but by Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection,

That just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Darwin's theory of natural selection says that life evolves by the non-random survival of randomly-varying replicators, which we call genes. Natural selection works on the level of the gene, not the organism, group, or species.

and motivated by a belief that there is no God.

How does not believing in your god motivate anyone to do anything? I don't believe in your god, Zeus, or Harry Potter, just as you don't believe in all other gods but your own. Disbelief is hardly a motivation.

[loco]

I agree.
That just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Darwin's theory of natural selection says that life evolves by the non-random survival of randomly-varying replicators, which we call genes. Natural selection works on the level of the gene, not the organism, group, or species.

How does not believing in your god motivate anyone to do anything? I don't believe in your god, Zeus, or Harry Potter, just as you don't believe in all other gods but your own. Disbelief is hardly a motivation.

How does it matter what I know or not know about Natural Selection?  What matters is what the shooter knows and what motivated him.  Read the article again.

How does not believing in my God or any god motivated him?  I don't know.  Read the article, or ask the guy if you ever get a chance.  He's not dead yet.

[columbusdude82]

Seriously, loco, for real, I have gotten much joy and insight from reading about modern biology, so if you ever find yourself with a bit of time to read, pick up Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker," a true masterpiece of scientific prose, or another of his books like "Climbing Mount Improbable" or "River out of Eden."

That was an aside.

Next, you are trying to "imply" guilt-by-association between Darwinism (the foundational theory of modern biology that no one but a few protestants questions nowadays) and so-called "Social Darwinism," which has nothing to do with Darwin or biology.

The thing to keep in mind is that Darwin's natural selection operates on the level of the gene, not the individual, or group, or species. So when you start thinking about survival of the fittest individual or group, you are no longer in the realm of Darwinian thought.

Just a clarification

[loco]

Seriously, loco, for real, I have gotten much joy and insight from reading about modern biology, so if you ever find yourself with a bit of time to read, pick up Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker," a true masterpiece of scientific prose, or another of his books like "Climbing Mount Improbable" or "River out of Eden."

That was an aside.

Next, you are trying to "imply" guilt-by-association between Darwinism (the foundational theory of modern biology that no one but a few protestants questions nowadays) and so-called "Social Darwinism," which has nothing to do with Darwin or biology.

The thing to keep in mind is that Darwin's natural selection operates on the level of the gene, not the individual, or group, or species. So when you start thinking about survival of the fittest individual or group, you are no longer in the realm of Darwinian thought.

Just a clarification

Thanks, columbusdude82!  If I ever get a chance, I will read at least one of those books.  I love reading.  At the moment my interest is in reading nutrition.

This thread is not to bash Darwin or his theory.  That is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  When a nut job kills in the name of God, it doesn't mean that faith in God is bad and that all who believe in God are killers.  It just means this person is a nut job.

The same goes for atheism, Darwin, evolution.  This one nut job was not motivated by God or by religion.  He, by his own admission was motivated by Darwin's theory, whether he knows what he is talking about or not.  This does not prove that Darwin's theory is bad and that it motivates people to kill, or that all atheists are killers.  It just means that this guy is a nut job.

My point is theism, atheism, Darwin, Natural Selection have nothing to do with it.  Saying that the world will be safer without belief in God is like saying that the world will be safer if there were no atheists or no theory of evolution.

Bad people will do bad things.  Good people will do good things.  But for a bad person to do good things, it takes God.  Many bad people have found God and gave up their life style of crime, drunkenness, drug addiction, etc., and started doing good things, becoming good citizens and contributing to society.

[columbusdude82]

yes, great post... and I would venture to add that for a good person to do bad things, it takes faith, faith that their god demanded they do their bad deed.

[OzmO]

yes, great post... and I would venture to add that for a good person to do bad things, it takes faith, faith that their god demanded they do their bad deed.

You mean like kill children?

[loco]

You mean like kill children?

What do you mean, OzmO?

[OzmO]

What do you mean, OzmO?

nothing, one one has ever thought God ordered them to kill of children, even in the bible... 

[loco]

nothing, God has never ordered the killing of children.... 

What do you mean, OzmO?  Is there something that you would like to discuss or are you just being a troll?

[Nordic Superman]

That just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Darwin's theory of natural selection says that life evolves by the non-random survival of randomly-varying replicators, which we call genes. Natural selection works on the level of the gene, not the organism, group, or species.

The process can be accelerated via selective breeding or the "culling" of undesirables. For instance dog breeds, birds and cats etc.

This is in essence what Hitler desired. Accelerated "evolution" towards his Aryan ideal by selectively picking the parents (basically by removing anyone deemed to be undesirable).

[OzmO]

What do you mean, OzmO?  Is there something that you would like to discuss or are you just being a troll?

Oh dear loco, playing the same old game again are we?   

[loco]

Oh dear loco, playing the same old game again are we?   

Okay, Johnny Apollo.  I'm trying to have a serious discussion here and instead of debating me, you are being a troll and posting, as you said it yourself...."nothing"

[OzmO]

Okay, Johnny Apollo.  I'm trying to have a serious discussion here and instead of debating me, you are being a troll and posting, as you said it yourself...."nothing"

No I'm not troll posting.  If you took the time to read who i responded to you'll see i didn't respond to anything you said initially.

Then you asked me what i meant and i explained more and then you acted like you don;t what i'm talking about when you do know exactly what I'm talking which i typical game you play.  No problem.  I'll play along.  Now you are accusing me of trolling.

Well, let me ask you.  Has the OT given accounts of God telling people to kill others?   Did the OT given an account of God telling to kill an entire nation of people like for example the amalikites?     would killing an entire nation or tribe include killing children?

Next, does killing children on God's orders relate to C-82's statement?:

yes, great post... and I would venture to add that for a good person to do bad things, it takes faith, faith that their god demanded they do their bad deed.

Is killing children a bad deed?

Oh i forgot, God said so, so he's excused from any moral accountability.   

[loco]

No I'm not troll posting.  If you took the time to read who i responded to you'll see i didn't respond to anything you said initially.

Then you asked me what i meant and i explained more and then you acted like you don;t what i'm talking about when you do know exactly what I'm talking which i typical game you play.  No problem.  I'll play along.  Now you are accusing me of trolling.

Well, let me ask you.  Has the OT given accounts of God telling people to kill others?   Did the OT given an account of God telling to kill an entire nation of people like for example the amalikites?     would killing an entire nation or tribe include killing children?

Next, does killing children on God's orders relate to C-82's statement?:
 

Is killing children a bad deed?

Oh i forgot, God said so, so he's excused from any moral accountability.   

Dang, OzmO, the Amalekites?  Again?  You forgot the 3,000 men who died for their idolatry in Exodus.  Man, I thought you were talking about the real subject of this thread, the nut job who went into a school and shot kids to death, but I wasn't understanding the part about God telling him to do so since this guy is an atheist.  What is your infatuation with the murderous Amalekites and with the idolatrous 3,000 men in Exodus?  We have numerous threads for those.  Must you hijack every thread with these subjects?  Why not go back to those threads and continue the debate, while sticking to this thread's topic?

Follow me, let's continue our debate here:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=162141.msg2317794#msg2317794

[OzmO]

Dang, OzmO, the Amalekites?  Again?  You forgot the 3,000 men who died for their idolatry in Exodus.  Man, I thought you were talking about the real subject of this thread, the nut job who went into a school and shot kids to death, but I wasn't understanding the part about God telling him to do so since this guy is an atheist.  What is your infatuation with the murderous Amalekites and with the idolatrous 3,000 men in Exodus?  We have numerous threads for those.  Must you hijack every thread with these subjects?  Why not go back to those threads and continue the debate, while sticking to this thread's topic?

Follow me, let's continue our debate here:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=162141.msg2317794#msg2317794

It was relevant to what C-82 said.   People do that kind of thing all the time on a much smaller level and it was recorded in the OT in a larger scale. 

And please don't confuse my issue with killing children on god's orders with killing a murderous nation of men such a Amalikites.

I'll get back to you on it, but we've gone round and round so i don;t what the point is.   But i don;t have time right now, maybe tomorrow or later today.