Author Topic: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.  (Read 6873 times)

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2008, 10:57:46 PM »
Nah, I didn't say the title was designed to make money, I said the book itself was motivated by profit, not some desire to spur dialog. 

I have no problem at all with anyone who wants to legally make a buck. 

You mean people write books and are not partially motivated by profit?  wow!   ;D

there should be quite a few free books out there then, or the non-profit ones are true then.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2008, 11:02:47 PM »
You mean people write books and not partially motivated by profit?  wow!   ;D

there should be quite a few free books out there then, or the non-profit ones are true then.

lol.  No, they're not all motivated by profit.  Didn't Hillary donate all of the profits from her It Takes a Village book to charity?  Lots of people have done this.

If Bugliosi donated all of the profits from his book to pay for a Congressional investigation I might have a little more respect for him. 

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2008, 11:37:07 PM »
lol.  No, they're not all motivated by profit.  Didn't Hillary donate all of the profits from her It Takes a Village book to charity?  Lots of people have done this.

If Bugliosi donated all of the profits from his book to pay for a Congressional investigation I might have a little more respect for him. 

She gained something from it.   Just because some one doesn't do something for money doesn't mean there isn't a some sort of pay off they are embellishing or sensationalizing something for.  And in Hillary's case how could you doubt the poltical, I'm a great 'ole gal points, she scores with the overly  and morally motivated left of center?

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2008, 06:33:58 AM »
correct - butttttttttttttt -

a lot of the dems voted for the war because public opinion was behind it, and they didn't want to look unpatriotic or sot on terror.  Obama's position at the time was an unpopular one. 
While that may be true, it does not absolve Bush for his active lying to get a war started.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2008, 06:43:15 AM »
Quote
My view isn't about bias at all.  It's not about defending Bush.  I'm using my own common sense.  And my common sense tells me this is as ridiculous as trying to impeach and remove Clinton from office.
This is not a topic for lazy reliance on 'common sense'.  This subject deserves study and consideration of the facts and law involved.

Quote
For the most part, we were on the outside looking in.  There were UN inspectors on the ground, periodically, but they did not have unfettered access to the entire country for years.  We didn’t know what they had.  But we did have people around the world, including most of Congress, believing the guy was a threat and needed to be removed. 
Maybe this is why you hold the opinion that you do.  The WMD inspectors did have unfettered access prior to the war.  Does that change anything?

Quote
The whole thing is absurd.  Most of Congress, the UN, and more than 20 countries believed Saddam was a threat.  To say that Bush manipulated intelligence that was consistent before and after he took office and then tricked all of those members of Congress, the UN, and the nearly 30 countries who participated in the war is beyond absurd. 
Here's another fact that may change your mind.  No one is arguing that Iraq wasn't a threat.  The dispute is that Bush manufactured Iraq as an IMMINENT threat to the US. 

....

Quote
And Bugliosi wrote a fictional account of a mock trial.  Big deal.  I will not waste my time. 
You will discuss the matter at hand but not waste your time with the matter at hand? 

IF you reconsider two of the factual errors underpinning your mistaken belief that there's nothing to see here, you just might change your mind.

Quote
But I will discuss it on this message board.  :)
Good man.

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2008, 06:45:37 AM »
Here is another bold statement:  the books accusing the Clintons of murder are absurd and I haven't read those either. 
elitest relatavism...all books are not the same.

You might know that if you just read the excerpts I posted.

Steve Martin was funny...'Criticize things you don't know about...'

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2008, 10:46:54 AM »
From Eldon/Ozark and whoever the hell else resides in that fevered brain of his:

Quote
Bill Clinton said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Hillary said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

John Kerry said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

John Edwards ( Deckers Man) said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Joe Bidon  said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Al Gore  said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Most of the libs said this prior to Bush even being elected.


France intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

England  Intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Russia Intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction
Is everyone seeing this?  Does everyone now know the burden of having to discuss the illegality of the Bush Administration to people, like Eldon/Ozark, that have no idea what they are talking about?

How does any of this crap you posted concern itself with Bush's lies about the imminency of Iraq'a threat to the US and his lies about the Iraq-Al Qaeda connection?


Quote
The truth is Innocent people died because Bill Clinton bombed an Aspirin factory, plain and simple.

So In your weak theory of Bush Being guilty of murder, then so is Clinton.


Decker, you are the one being embarrassed here.   :o     so please continue     :)
It's Bugliosi's theory of murder and thank you for showing the GetBig community that you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you're the best Bush's side has to make his defense, then the president has a lot to worry about.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2008, 12:36:29 PM »
This is not a topic for lazy reliance on 'common sense'.  This subject deserves study and consideration of the facts and law involved.
Maybe this is why you hold the opinion that you do.  The WMD inspectors did have unfettered access prior to the war.  Does that change anything?
Here's another fact that may change your mind.  No one is arguing that Iraq wasn't a threat.  The dispute is that Bush manufactured Iraq as an IMMINENT threat to the US. 

....
You will discuss the matter at hand but not waste your time with the matter at hand? 

IF you reconsider two of the factual errors underpinning your mistaken belief that there's nothing to see here, you just might change your mind.
Good man.

Lazy reliance on common sense.  Now that's a new one. 

There are no factual errors underpinning my opinion.  These are facts:

- The Clinton Admin considered Saddam a threat.
- Most of Congress considered Saddam a threat, both before and after Bush took office.
- Congress authorized the use of force.
- Congress continues to fund the war.
- More than 20 countries participated in the war. 
- Saddam stonewalled inspectors for years and had years to move whatever he had out of the country. 

The "unfettered access," when considered in conjunction with the preceding facts and Saddam suspicious behavior, isn't so "unfettered" at all.   

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2008, 02:08:34 PM »

Quote
Lazy reliance on common sense.  Now that's a new one. 
Common sense presumes common experience.  Are you a lawyer?  Buglisoi is.  Why would you presume to think that you, with your common sense, know the law better than a seasoned attorney?

Quote
There are no factual errors underpinning my opinion.  These are facts:

- The Clinton Admin considered Saddam a threat.
- Most of Congress considered Saddam a threat, both before and after Bush took office.
- Congress authorized the use of force.
- Congress continues to fund the war.
- More than 20 countries participated in the war. 
- Saddam stonewalled inspectors for years and had years to move whatever he had out of the country. 

See, this is what I'm talking about.  You're posting irrelevant statements.  What do any of those things have to do with Bush's lies re the IMMINENCY of Iraq's threat and the Iraq/Al Qaeda ties?

I'll save you time.  Your facts are irrelevant to the charges.


Quote
The "unfettered access," when considered in conjunction with the preceding facts and Saddam suspicious behavior, isn't so "unfettered" at all.   
Even if I accepted your facts as relevant, this statement makes no sense at all.

In other words, what are you talking about?

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2008, 02:37:22 PM »
Common sense presumes common experience.  Are you a lawyer?  Buglisoi is.  Why would you presume to think that you, with your common sense, know the law better than a seasoned attorney?
 
See, this is what I'm talking about.  You're posting irrelevant statements.  What do any of those things have to do with Bush's lies re the IMMINENCY of Iraq's threat and the Iraq/Al Qaeda ties?

I'll save you time.  Your facts are irrelevant to the charges.

 Even if I accepted your facts as relevant, this statement makes no sense at all.

In other words, what are you talking about?

So if a lawyer writes a book for everyone to read, only lawyers can criticize the man's book?   Geeze.  Decker that attitude is what we call "high maka maka." 

Regarding the "unfettered access," I'm saying whatever they were finding on the ground has to be considered in connection everything that had happened up to that point.  For example, if the man kept us from looking at certain parts of the country for months or years and then allows access in certain parts and we find nothing, that could mean he either never had it, disposed of, or hid it.  The assumption we then make is based on history (all of the things I mentioned and more).     

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2008, 07:11:40 AM »

Quote
So if a lawyer writes a book for everyone to read, only lawyers can criticize the man's book?   Geeze.  Decker that attitude is what we call "high maka maka." 
That's not what I'm saying.  This murder charge requires thought and analysis and contemplation.  Usually when I hear someone rely on the magic of 'common sense', I find analysis and conclusions rife with errors.

Education and professionalism do not diminish one's ability to use common sense, i.e., the ability to point out the patently obvious.

Quote
Regarding the "unfettered access," I'm saying whatever they were finding on the ground has to be considered in connection everything that had happened up to that point.  For example, if the man kept us from looking at certain parts of the country for months or years and then allows access in certain parts and we find nothing, that could mean he either never had it, disposed of, or hid it.  The assumption we then make is based on history (all of the things I mentioned and more).
Why?  What's the relevance?  While that is an interesting topic, how does that strike at the heart of Bush's lies about the imminency of Iraq's threat to the US or Iraq's relationship with Al Qaeda?   

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2008, 08:57:22 AM »
You will discuss the matter at hand but not waste your time with the matter at hand? 

hehehe

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2008, 12:56:21 PM »
That's not what I'm saying.  This murder charge requires thought and analysis and contemplation.  Usually when I hear someone rely on the magic of 'common sense', I find analysis and conclusions rife with errors.

Education and professionalism do not diminish one's ability to use common sense, i.e., the ability to point out the patently obvious.
Why?  What's the relevance?  While that is an interesting topic, how does that strike at the heart of Bush's lies about the imminency of Iraq's threat to the US or Iraq's relationship with Al Qaeda?   


Often when I hear people talking about conspiracy theories and things as crazy as prosecuting the president of the United States for first degree murder, there is a lack of common sense involved. 

You pretty much have to put your common sense on the shelf to ignore some of the things Eldon mentioned, like

Quote
France intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

England  Intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

Russia Intelligence said Saddam had weapons of mas destruction

The entire proposition makes no sense. 

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2008, 01:36:00 PM »
Often when I hear people talking about conspiracy theories and things as crazy as prosecuting the president of the United States for first degree murder, there is a lack of common sense involved. 

You pretty much have to put your common sense on the shelf to ignore some of the things Eldon mentioned, like

The entire proposition makes no sense. 
With that post, Eldon/Ozark made a fool of him/her/itself.  Can you tell me why that post is so convincing to you yet irrelevant to me?

Do you understand the difference between 'a threat' and 'an imminent threat' in a theory of self-defense?

This is important.  There is tremendous legal significance to the distinction.





Oh, and you can't have it both ways Beach Bum.  You dismiss the case outright based on your common sensical approach yet you offer up the tour de force of irrelevant evidence that 'everybody believed that Iraq was threat' to prove your point that the case is plain crazy.


Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2008, 01:46:31 PM »
With that post, Eldon/Ozark made a fool of him/her/itself.  Can you tell me why that post is so convincing to you yet irrelevant to me?

Do you understand the difference between 'a threat' and 'an imminent threat' in a theory of self-defense?

This is important.  There is tremendous legal significance to the distinction.





Oh, and you can't have it both ways Beach Bum.  You dismiss the case outright based on your common sensical approach yet you offer up the tour de force of irrelevant evidence that 'everybody believed that Iraq was threat' to prove your point that the case is plain crazy.



I can't speak for you, so I can't explain why you consider "relevant" evidence "irrelevant." 

Eldon didn't make a fool of himself.  He is right.  You cannot dismiss all of the various people, agencies, entities, etc. who believed Saddam was a threat . . . unless you have a certain conclusion in mind and are unwilling to let any fact stand in the way of that conclusion. 

Numerous members of Congress believed Saddam needed to be immediately disarmed.  They believed he was an imminent threat.  That's a non-issue.  But you just plug your ears when all of those comments by members of Congress are trotted out, because they conflict with your conclusion. 

I didn't really dismiss that absurd first degree murder proposition outright.  I actually had a number of exchanges with you about the mechanics of prosecuting the president for first degree murder.  It didn't make any sense before our discussions and it doesn't make any sense now.   


   

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2008, 01:53:45 PM »
I can't speak for you, so I can't explain why you consider "relevant" evidence "irrelevant." 

Eldon didn't make a fool of himself.  He is right.  You cannot dismiss all of the various people, agencies, entities, etc. who believed Saddam was a threat . . . unless you have a certain conclusion in mind and are unwilling to let any fact stand in the way of that conclusion. 

Numerous members of Congress believed Saddam needed to be immediately disarmed.  They believed he was an imminent threat.  That's a non-issue.  But you just plug your ears when all of those comments by members of Congress are trotted out, because they conflict with your conclusion. 

I didn't really dismiss that absurd first degree murder proposition outright.  I actually had a number of exchanges with you about the mechanics of prosecuting the president for first degree murder.  It didn't make any sense before our discussions and it doesn't make any sense now.    
We have jurisdiction, venue, a suspect, dead bodies, wrongful act, wrongful mind....am I missing something to this recipe for Bush's murder charges?


As for your incessant clinging to the notion that everybody thought that Iraq had WMDs, please stop it.

I think you are a smart enough man to realize that you are just repeating irrelevant assertions.

But I'll file a directed verdict for you right now:  Even accepting that your assertions that everyone in the universe knew for a fact that Iraq had WMDs, how does that affect the contention that President Bush lied about The Imminency of an Iraqi Attack On The USA?

I've asked you this 3 times or so and 3 times you have not responded to that particular point.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63956
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2008, 02:07:27 PM »
We have jurisdiction, venue, a suspect, dead bodies, wrongful act, wrongful mind....am I missing something to this recipe for Bush's murder charges?


As for your incessant clinging to the notion that everybody thought that Iraq had WMDs, please stop it.

I think you are a smart enough man to realize that you are just repeating irrelevant assertions.

But I'll file a directed verdict for you right now:  Even accepting that your assertions that everyone in the universe knew for a fact that Iraq had WMDs, how does that affect the contention that President Bush lied about The Imminency of an Iraqi Attack On The USA?

I've asked you this 3 times or so and 3 times you have not responded to that particular point.

Yeah, you're missing pretty much everything you mentioned.  lol.  But go back and read our exchanges regarding what needs to be proved for first degree murder (based on your own posts).  That horse is dead. 

Sounds like we have different definitions of relevancy.

What's a "directed verdict"?  I would put this in different colored font, but I don't know how.   :-[  Whatever Bush said was consistent with what the world believed about Saddam and, importantly, what Congress believed when it authorized the president to start the war in his discretion. 

What specific "lie" are you talking about?     

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2008, 06:54:30 AM »

Quote
Yeah, you're missing pretty much everything you mentioned.  lol.  But go back and read our exchanges regarding what needs to be proved for first degree murder (based on your own posts).  That horse is dead.
No I'm not.  And no it isn't.  I pointed out that you were misreading the statute and you never responded.  Here's a refresher for your memory:

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 10, 2008, 03:38:16 PM
Quote
We just have to agree to disagree.  The way I read this and the way it is worded, "the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought" is murder.  "Murder" is then divided into first degree and second degree in the same passage based on the conduct listed in the passage. 

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. 

First degree murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.

That's it for the Bush case.  End of discussion.     

All those other instantiations of criminal killing that follow the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER are NOT first degree murder.  There is some element of malice aforethought missing. 

The murder statute attributes that intent to the criminal to make the laundry list of killings murder in the first degree for policy reasons.
Quote
It [the statute] wouldn't list the various forms of conduct that amount to first degree murder and then say "[a]ny other murder is murder in the second degree."
The 'various forms of conduct' to which you refer are additions to the first degree murder definition.  Those types of killings are included, for policy reasons, with first degree murder. Without inclusion in the statute, those 'various forms of conduct' would not be first degree murder b/c malice aforethought is not present in some manner.

Look up the Felony Murder rule and then look at "or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children;"....

The policy decision is that b/c the felonies are inherently dangerous, any killing done in the perpetration of those felonies automatically imputes malice aforethought/first degree murder to the killer.  Same with 'black heart' definition where unintended people are killed by the killer.

Can we proceed on to the evidence now?
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ____________
See?

I wrote the Bush responses in this thread based on how you would have answered.  Keep in mind that a judge would have directed you to answer the question posed instead parroting "everybody thought Iraq had WMDs" time and again.

Quote
Sounds like we have different definitions of relevancy.
I doubt it:  Relevancy is the tendency of any fact offered as evidence in a lawsuit to prove or disprove the truth of a point in issue.  How does the assertion that 'everybody believed Iraq had WMDs' prove or disprove whether Iraq was about to attack the US or not (imminency)?

Quote
What's a "directed verdict"?  I would put this in different colored font, but I don't know how.   :-[  Whatever Bush said was consistent with what the world believed about Saddam and, importantly, what Congress believed when it authorized the president to start the war in his discretion. 
In a criminal case, a directed verdict is a judgment of acquittal for the defendant.  It means Bugliosi loses b/c he failed to offer the minimum evidence sufficient to support the charge.

Quote
What specific "lie" are you talking about?   
    LIE #1.   Was Hussein an imminent threat to the USA?  No.  Bush lied to Congress and the American people when he made that claim so that he could get their support for the invasion of Iraq.

Evidence: 

1.   Iraq was wasted by the Desert Storm, US sanctions, & Weapons Inspections.  10-15-2001 Colin Powell said, “Iraq is Iraq, a wasted society for 10 years.  They’re sad.  They’re contained…”  Proof of Iraq’s decrepit state was shown in the fact that Iraq fell to Coalition Forces in three weeks. 

2.  It was Bush that first posited the idea that Iraq was an imminent threat: Iraq could “act on any given day”; that “before the day of horror can come, before it is too late to act, this danger must be removed”; “Some ask how urgent this danger is to America.  The danger is already significant and it only grows worse with time.”;  Iraq constituted “a threat of unique urgency”;  “Iraq could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as forty-five minutes.”  Bush said no less than six times at a press conference on March 6, 2003 that “Saddam is a threat to our Nation” and “Saddam and his weapons are a direct threat to this country.”;  “The security of the world requires disarming Saddam Hussein now.”

Talk about hyperbole. 

3.   Bush stopped pursuing Osama Bin Laden to concentrate on Hussein.  The president abandoned the pursuit of OBL—the one man most responsible for the 3000 deaths on 9/11, the one he promised to bring back “dead or alive”.  That is circumstantial evidence that his passion for invading Iraq was so strong that he would be much more likely to lie to the American people about Hussein being an imminent threat to the US.

4.   October 7, 2002 Bush addressed the nation and said that Hussein was “a great danger to our nation”, either by using “unmanned aerial vehicles” with “chemical or biological” payloads “for missions targeting the US” or by providing these weapons to a “terrorist groups or individual terrorists to attack us.”

   The day after the speech, George Tenet declassified a letter, signed by John McLaughlin, (deputy director of the CIA) which stated that Iraq was not an imminent threat to the security of the country and would not be unless the US attacked Iraq.  That letter predated Bush’s speech by a matter of hours.  Since the CIA is an agency of the Executive Branch and the director reports only to the president, it is unthinkable that Bush did not know the contents of the letter stating Iraq was no imminent threat to the US. 

Also, the letter simply corroborated the same finding in the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate issued by the CIA to Bush on 10-1-2002.  The CIA did not consider Hussein an imminent threat.

   Bush said, “I’ll be making up my mind (to invade Iraq) based on the latest intelligence.”

   When Bush told the nation on 10-7 that Hussein was an imminent threat to the security of the country, he was telling millions of Americans the exact opposite of what his own CIA was telling him.  Bush had his minions repeat lies like these in Congressional Briefings.
 
   On 10-4-2002, Bush issued a White Paper RESTATING the information in the 10-01-2002 NIE changing the language to make mere opinions into rock solid facts and to add words showing the US homeland was a target.  That’s big-time deception.


Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
Re: Prosecution of President Bush For Murder: Mr. Bush on the Stand.
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2008, 12:24:29 PM »
....

Numerous members of Congress believed Saddam needed to be immediately disarmed.  They believed he was an imminent threat.  That's a non-issue.  But you just plug your ears when all of those comments by members of Congress are trotted out, because they conflict with your conclusion.     
Numerous members of Congress parroted the president's numerous statements about the imminency of Iraq's threat to the US.  None of which was supported by evidence from any US intelligence agency.

I mean who would think that the President of the United States would create such a "fact" (i.e., lie) about another country's intent to attack us?

It is almost unthinkable.  Almost.  Until GW Bush became president.