Who'd give more to the middle class?

[shootfighter1]

There's a lot more in that link than that chart thats not so pro Obama.  Read more...

According to the link provided:
The 2001 & 2003 tax cuts don't just apply to the wealthy. 
The 28, 33 & 35% tax brackets will increase to 31, 36, and 40%
Also the standard deduction for married couples will expire unless renewed.
The AMT will increase & # of taxpayors subjected to the AMT will increase.
McCain is against the above changes...which is good.

Obama's plan, according to your link, is certainly skewed to the poor and low middle class.
Obama wants the estate tax at 45%!  McCain 15%.
Senator McCain would reduce corporate taxes and make research & experimentation credit perminant.  These guys specifically say lowering tax and capital gains on business would be smart, as some of our competing countries have done.  That is in opposition to Obama.  They state McCains tax cuts must be offset by spending cuts.
One good thing is they both list 'eliminate oil & gas loopholes' (no details provided).  Also provide credits for research & development.
There is a revenue raiser from Obama that increases taxes significantly but they list (unverifiable campaign provided revenue estimate).  Not sure what that is.
They say Obama's 'Make work pay' program has incentives to make people work less and has a very high cost.  They suggest the $ is better spent reducing taxes or the deficit.
They say Obama's plan to exempt people 65 & over from paying taxes if they make less than $50K is poorly designed.  Seniors making $51,000 would pay a hefty tax.
"Many provisions in Obama's plan share a common shortcoming in their use of phaseouts, which reduce tax benefits over a range of incomes.  These phaseouts adversely affect economic activity & growth.  Furthermore add complexity to the tax code.
Obama vastly overstates the revenues he gets from offsets (they both do but Obama claims double)
Obama will provide tax credits for childcare to low income workers (good to try to get them to work but bad cause they shouldn't be having kids with no $ and we pay for their childcare)
Certain phaseouts will increase the affected tax rates on middle income earners in Obama's plan!
Obama will force companies to have 401K plans, which could be hell for smaller companies.

[shootfighter1]

"Senator Obama's plan would substantially increase the deficit compared with current law and would add nearly 3.3 trillion to the national debt over the next 10 yrs". 

Obama would increase capital gains taxes, which they state is a mixed bag, and contribute to the double taxation of corporate equity.  There are dividend provisions which may offset the higher capital gains.

"Some of the proposals may generate much less revenue than the Obama campaign claims"
"Overall, the economic effect of Obama's proposals will depend on how the resulting deficits are closed.  If the deficits result in higher tax rates in the future, the economy will be harmed"

[Straw Man]

I haven't gone through all the stuff on the tax policy site but you're right that there are other differences besides just who would do more for the middle class.

I also noticed that the chart seems to indicate essentially no change up to ~ 603k mark which seems at odds with prior statements. 

[shootfighter1]

Both candidates plans would increase our national debt.  The estimate does not include Obama's healthcare costs.

Obama's plan:
Households in the top 20% will see a tax increase of 2% ($4100)...so we aren't talking about the super wealthy anymore!  This is a major fault.
Households in the bottom 20% will see a 5.5% decrease
Households in the top 1% will see an 8.7% increase ($116,000)
Top 0.1% tax increase of 11.5% ($700,000)

"Upper income households (top 20%) will bear the burdens of the corporate tax increases"
"Married couple filling jointly would fare the worst, seeing a 0.1% increase in tax"  (we should encourage marriage and give tax breaks!)
"Obama's plan will raise taxes on 10 million senior households, over a third of the total"  Higher income seniors will bear the burdens of higher taxes and higher capital gains taxes.  

McCain gives greater tax benefits to the top 1% of earners...which many can understandably argue
against.
IMO, both plans are somewhat flawed.
The biggest issue is to decrease spending.

[shootfighter1]

Damn, that is f'n long.

Looks like Obama will raise taxes on the top 20% but decrease income tax for all other brackets.  His capital gains increases will affect all investors, many retirement plans and all buisness owners.  Thats my main problem with the plan. 

McCain will cut tax rates for everyone, but more for the top 1%....which I don't agree with either.  But, since its a progressive system already, they pay the most taxes.

They seem to imply that both candidates overestimate revenues but Obama overestimates far more.
If McCain doesn't cut spending to offset the tax cuts, we will be in more debt. 

The key is to cut spending!

[Straw Man]

Damn, that is f'n long.

Looks like Obama will raise taxes on the top 20% but decrease income tax for all other brackets.  His capital gains increases will affect all investors, many retirement plans and all buisness owners.  Thats my main problem with the plan. 

McCain will cut tax rates for everyone, but more for the top 1%....which I don't agree with either.  But, since its a progressive system already, they pay the most taxes.

They seem to imply that both candidates overestimate revenues but Obama overestimates far more.
If McCain doesn't cut spending to offset the tax cuts, we will be in more debt. 

The key is to cut spending!

I'm 100% in agreement on that.  We can start with the biggest expense which is military.

I scanned through that tax policy document again and I can't find any direct comparison of the projected deficit of Obama vs. McCain.

It does seem very obvious that Obama will provide lower taxes for the vast majority of the population and higher taxes for a tiny fraction at the top

McCain will provide very little tax relief for the majority of the population and will give huge tax savings to the tiny fraction at the top.

Regarding Cap Gains - I think there is a way to deal with that without effecting productivity.   Other countries (China and India) may have lower Cap Gains tax but I expect the vast majority of their productivity gains come from very cheap labor (in some cases borderline slave labor),  lax or non-existent labor and environmental laws and unbalanced import tariffs vs. what they experience when they sell their products in other countries

[24KT]

Ahhhhh, ...another GetBig warm & fuzzy moment. 

[shootfighter1]

"higher taxes for a tiny fraction at the top"

See, thats not true.  According to the link, he will increase taxes on the top 20% of households and on 1/3 of all seniors.  If it was only the top 1%, I wouldn't have such an issue.  The upper middle class already get shit on enough.

Thats true with the cheap labor but raising the capital gains taxes will drive companies and investors away.

[shootfighter1]

What is this fuzzy moment jag?

Have we ever seen a picture of you? (completely off topic random, I'm a guy and can't help it comment..haha)  Waiting for one of CQ too.  Smart chicks are a turn on.

[24KT]

What is this fuzzy moment jag?

Have we ever seen a picture of you?

You and Straw man actually discussing issues trying to get to the truth.

It's rare on here to see those from the LEFT and those from the RIGHT actually discussing things trying to get to the truth, ...without ad hominem attacks and stupid immature name calling. It's refreshing... a warm fuzzy moment.

GROUP HUG!!!   

[Straw Man]

"higher taxes for a tiny fraction at the top"

See, thats not true.  According to the link, he will increase taxes on the top 20% of households and on 1/3 of all seniors.  If it was only the top 1%, I would have such an issue.  The upper middle class already get shit on enough.

Thats true with the cheap labor but raising the capital gains taxes will drive companies and investors away.

I'm not finding those figures in the link.  Perhaps I'm missing it.  Is this increase the result of letting the Bush Tax cuts expire to due to something else

This is from page 37 of the link and (from my interpretaion) the top quinitile (top 20% as a whole) would experience a 2% increase but this appears to be due mostly to the increase in taxes on the top 1% which of course are part of the top quintile  i.e not everyone in the top 20% will experience an increase but the #'s show that due to the effect of the average.

 " Measured against current law in 2009, Senator Obama’s plan raises after-tax incomes by more than 5.5 percent for those in the bottom quintile and also provides more modest increases for those in the next three quintiles (figure 1). The top quintile would experience an average tax increase because of the hikes in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends and the increases in the top two individual income tax rates. The increase in taxes would be dramatic for those at the very top of the income scale, representing 8.7 percent of after-tax income for the top 1 percent of households and 11.5 percent of income for the richest 1 in 1,000"

[Straw Man]

You and Straw man actually discussing issues trying to get to the truth.

It's rare on here to see those from the LEFT and those from the RIGHT actually discussing things trying to get to the truth, ...without ad hominem attacks and stupid immature name calling. It's refreshing... a warm fuzzy moment.

GROUP HUG!!!   

blegh!

It is possible to have a discussion without name calling and such but I guess it's not too common on this site.

BTW - I don't really consider myself Left or Right.  I try to look at things issue by issue and I'm middle of the road on most stuff with slight libertarian leanings on most social issues (which basically boils down to everyone mind their own fucking business)

[24KT]

blegh!

It is possible to have a discussion without name calling and such but I guess it's not too common on this site.

BTW - I don't really consider myself Left or Right.  I try to look at things issue by issue and I'm middle of the road on most stuff with slight libertarian leanings on most social issues (which basically boils down to everyone mind their own fucking business)

The very same can be said for most who are labelled LEFTIST.
The problem is America has swung sooo far to the right that even moderate centrist views are deemed LEFTIST.

[shootfighter1]

haha, thats why this is civil (ie Jag's 'fuzzy moment').  I am a combo of libertarian and very moderate conservative.

You could be right about the average instead of all of the top 20%, I couldn't find that.  I just quoted the figure for the tax hike on the top 20%.

[24KT]

What is this fuzzy moment jag?

Have we ever seen a picture of you? (completely off topic random, I'm a guy and can't help it comment..haha)  Waiting for one of CQ too.  Smart chicks are a turn on.

Check your PMs. It will be gone in an hour.

OK CQ, ...your turn. 

[w8tlftr]

Check your PMs. It will be gone in an hour.

OK CQ, ...your turn. 

Judi's a hottie. 

[shootfighter1]

Damn, missed it 

[youandme]

I haven't gone through all the stuff on the tax policy site but you're right that there are other differences besides just who would do more for the middle class.

I also noticed that the chart seems to indicate essentially no change up to ~ 603k mark which seems at odds with prior statements. 

277k-603

Increase of $12

2.9 mill income Obama is going to tax them 729k

why is jag on a united states tax thread, when she lives in Canada?

[shootfighter1]

Why did Obama and his camp say they would raise income taxes on those making $250,000 & up.  On of the earlier #s from his camp was $150,000 & up.  I wouldn't doubt if he changes it if elected.
My main concerns are capital gains taxes, business taxes and other hardships in favor of more social programs, eco-friendly restrictions that hurt our ability to compete with the world, & his disproportionate focus and help to the lowest income earners.

[Fury]

Judi's a hottie. 

She looks like an ape.

[youandme]

She looks like an ape.

that plays with bananas...