Author Topic: An interesting back and forth between myself and someone else about the GZMosque  (Read 531 times)

George Whorewell

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For some strange reason, a distant family member decided to include me in a chain email about the GZ Mosque. Included in the first email that was sent was the youtube video that I believe 333 or BF posted where some dude is next to the proposed site explaining in detail why its a bad idea. The first response to the email was as follows:

I think this is quite ridiculous!  I am a practicing Roman Catholic and have Muslim friends.  To say that Islam is a religion where people are two-faced is speaking in GENERALITIES, STEREOTYPES.  Let's not forget that the people who brought down the World Trade Center were EXTREMISTS - TERRORISTS.  So how is it that this was MUSLIMS' intent - to build a skyline of mosques?  That's like saying ALL Roma's Catholics are pedophiles because some  priests have molested children. (Which I don't condone AT ALL - much like true practicing Muslims don't condone what happened on 9/11 - and NO, that's not just what they say in your face and think differently behind your back). 
I think the point that this young man is trying to make is instilling FEAR.  I thought freedom of religion is what America is all about.  And funny how he doesn't even make a point to TALK with his "best friend". 
I grew up in NYC and was there when the planes went into the WTC.  I LIVED that fear - of not knowing whether my twin sister was okay - of keeping the news away from my elementary school students and not panicking - of going into the school's library and watching video footage over and over again and not believing what I was seeing was real.  To perpetuate that fear is essentially what this man is doing.  And has anybody really looked at WHERE this mosque is being built?  It is NOT AT the WTC site!


Here was my response:

Without getting into a silly debate about the merits of the Ground Zero mosque, I think that many people are totally in the dark, or go out of their way to ignore the plain truth about Islam as a religion and it's place in the world today. In response to the individual that sent the previous email, I disagree with you emphatically. The Koran and the Hadith specifically authorize, encourage and command Muslims to lie in order to achieve victory over the "unbelievers" (non muslims).
 
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves." 
Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..."  The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture.  They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.
Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.
Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"
Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"
Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers."  The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit.  If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
 

From the Hadith:
 
Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'"  The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).
 
Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."  Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.
 
Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."
 
Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence.  The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad.  This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.
 
From Islamic Law:
 
Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) -  "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.  When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...
 
"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.
 


Acknowledging reality is scary, but what scares me more is holding my nose and pretending that something is true so that other people with more delicate sensibilities are not offended. The Imam who wants to build this mosque has ties to terrorist organizations, endorses Sharia law, has refused to disclose where the funding for the mosque is coming from and blames America for 911. The proposed site of the mosque is less than two blocks away (560 feet) from the gaping hole in the ground where the towers stood.  In fact, debris from the resulting explosion and pieces of the plane that hit the South Tower collapsed the building’s roof and the two floors underneath it. But, that is neither here nor there. Fear is what has infected those who support the mosque and the countless Islamic apologists that would rather jump off a bridge than engage the truth. Every day on TV shows, in books, movies and virtually every form of popular media we see courage without consequence. Christians are mocked for their beliefs and Jews are made fun of and stereotyped. At schools and Universities across the country professors and politicians bend over backward to purge any remaining positive remnants of the Judeo-Christian tradition from American culture. So now, why are these same staunch supporters of the separation between church and state, freedom of speech and secularism such unprincipled cowards when it comes to Islam? Fear. Within the last few months, TV executives actually pulled an episode of South Park because of fear over Muslim backlash. They weren’t too far off though—within days of the episode being censored, there was the bungled attempt to blow up Times Square.   
Across the globe, from Russia to Israel, Indonesia, India, The Sudan, Somalia, Europe, America, Canada and everywhere in between Islamofacist fundamentalists terrorize secular and civilized society. And while you can make the argument that not all Muslims are terrorists, the vast majority of terrorists in today's world are Muslim. Muslims that are not terrorists either rationalize the brutality that their brethren inflict on the rest of the world, support it, or remain silent. Even worse than Muslims who say little or do nothing to speak out against the atrocities committed in the name of Islam are non- Muslims that rationalize Islamic terrorism. These non- Muslim enablers manufacture moral equivalency arguments, rationalizations that start or end with the theme of U.S. foreign policy and make nonsensical appeals about religious tolerance/ religious freedom. The absurd arguments that these enablers concoct do nothing except perpetrate the myth that there is some other root cause for Islamic extremism besides Islam itself. This kind of deception ties in with the quotations that I posted above, only it is the self deception of non-Muslims that has resulted in an all consuming and willful  blindness to the obvious.  As someone who lives in NYC, I take the building of the ground zero mosque as both an abomination and a personal insult. If the builders of the mosque and their supporters are so concerned with tolerance and understanding, maybe they should take their own advice and understand that the construction of a 14- story monument to the warped ideology that led to the murder of 3000 Americans is more than most people can tolerate.
 For once, with the shoe on the other foot, it would be nice for common human decency to prevail. If the builders of the mosque really want to improve relations with Americans and develop a better understanding with the non-Muslim community, they will build their Mosque somewhere else.




Soul Crusher

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Racist.   ;D



Great retort to that liberal clap trap. 

Fury

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Great response to another dolt. It's amazing how clueless most people are when it comes to what's actually written in the Koran, the Hadith and the other Islamic holy books. They want to live in fantasy land while the Islamists continue to get worse.

Radical Islam is now a growing threat in many countries that were once non-Muslim or secular. Indonesia has a growing radical segment and the eastern European countries with sizable Muslim populations like Kosovo are seeing a rise in radical Islamists.

Not to mention the growing persecution of non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

I could go on all day but it's pointless trying to educate the simpletons. They'd rather bend over and take it up the ass from the Muslims. Meanwhile, Muslims are far and away the most intolerant group of people on the planet yet they do nothing but make demands of us in the West. What a sad world we live in. Guess no one learned their lesson the last time they almost took over the western world. ::)

Dos Equis

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Nice GW.  Did they respond? 

George Whorewell

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The response was so weak that I decided it was a waste of brain cells to try and go back and forth the person who sent the original email. Here is what they said:

With all due respect, this issue is not "silly", hence a debate on the issue wouldn't be either.  Your arguments are pretty much what was said by the gentleman in the video and perpetuates the fear I was speaking of.
The Cordoba House (or what media outlets are referring to as the "Ground Zero Mosque") would actually be two blocks away from Ground Zero, on 45 Park Place (where the Burlington Coat factory is).  It is planned to be a cultural center with a prayer room, modeled after the 92nd Street Y (where many Jewish events take place, but it's not called a synagogue).  There will be no minarets or muezzin calls for prayer so to call it a mosque is also somewhat misleading.
My apologies to everyone and anyone on this email that does not want to read this - I will not "reply to all again".  I usually don't respond to these types of forwards but I felt compelled to do so this time.  I also grew up and live in NYC and I do not find the building of this cultural center a personal insult. I am proud to be an American and am glad that we can all have differing opinions and beliefs and yet be respectful of one another.  :)



For obvious reasons, including the fact that there was absolutely no answer to the points I adressed in my response, I decided to let sleeping dogs lie and exert my attention elsewhere. 

Dos Equis

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If you ever decide to respond, you should give him some of this info:  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=346218.0

George Whorewell

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If you don't mind, I'm actually going to put that entire article on my blog.

Fury

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If you don't mind, I'm actually going to put that entire article on my blog.

Can you link your blog again, George?

Dos Equis

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If you don't mind, I'm actually going to put that entire article on my blog.

O.k. with me.  I didn't write it. 


Arnold jr

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Good stuff.

My favorite part was in the original email you responded to where he used the phrase "True Practicing Muslims." That's what people don't seem to get, true Islam is the face of evil and our enemy.