Author Topic: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.  (Read 2046 times)

Fury

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Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« on: October 19, 2010, 12:20:24 PM »
"The promise of moderate Islam is beginning to look decidedly unconvincing," says Janet Albrechtsen, and marshals a good deal of evidence for why that is the case.

"The extremes of moderate Islam," by Janet Albrechtsen for The Australian, October 20:

EVEN for supposedly reasonable Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.

PERCHED high in the verdant mountains of central Java recently, the rural silence was broken five times a day by the Muslim call to prayer. The chanting wafted up from loudspeakers in the local villages as Indonesian Muslims observed longer than usual prayers during Ramadan. I asked a cab driver if he was fasting until sunset during this Islamic month of reflection. Rules are made to be broken, he said with a smile. But not according to the government and police in Indonesia, a country hailed as the world's largest, most moderate Muslim nation.

Local newspapers report an American man being held on suspicion of blasphemy for pulling the plug on a loudspeaker at a local mosque. According to police, Luke Gregory Lloyd pulled out the loudspeaker's cable in Kuta village in central Lombok when he was woken by the Koranic reading.

So how is moderate Islam doing in Indonesia? Not so well if you're that American man facing five years in prison.
Perhaps it's all relative. In Saudi Arabia, he may have faced more violent punishment for his cultural insensitivity. That said, the promise of moderate Islam is beginning to look decidedly unconvincing.

Certainly, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has made plenty of promises. In an address at Harvard last year, he described his country as a model for how Islam, modernity and democracy can go hand in hand. He said tolerance and respect for religious freedom forms part of Indonesia's "trans-generational DNA".

Back in Indonesia, the President is quiet about the fact that moderate Islam is not so respectful of religious freedom if you belong to the Ahmadiyah sect. As yet another daily call to prayer began, I read about the ban on this religious sect for propagating its beliefs, including the tenet that Mohammed was not the final prophet. Indonesia's Religious Affairs Minister Suryadharma Ali announced the Ahmadiyah congregation "must be disbanded immediately" for violating a 2008 decree prohibiting the group from spreading its teachings. If this "is considered as religious freedom, then I call it an excessive freedom", Ali said.


Moderate Islam is not so moderate if you are a Christian either. In August, 300 hardline Islamic protesters confronted Christians worshipping in an open field owned by the Christians. The Christians want to build a church. A leader of the hardline Islamic Defenders Front told reporters that the culture of the people will not allow a church. Earlier this year, thousands of Muslim extremists set fire to a Christian community centre in West Java when they suspected the local Christians planned to build a small chapel. According to the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace, there have been more than 28 attacks on churches since January, a substantial increase since last year.

And how is moderate Islam doing when it comes to freedom of speech? While President Yudhoyono boasts about his country's "increasingly incisive" free press, one the markers of moderate Islam's commitment to democracy, it's too bad if you're the editor of Playboy Indonesia, a magazine consciously remodelled for the local market with no nudity. After being tried and acquitted for public indecency in 2007, Erwin Arnada was found guilty of public indecency last month by a new Supreme Court ruling. Arnada was arrested last week and has commenced a two-year prison sentence. The Indonesian constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech and freedom of the press, is no match for hardline Islamic groups baying for Arnada's blood. Is that moderation?

Move to New York and the fraught debate over the proposed Ground Zero mosque. Muslims demand the mosque be built. And their left-liberal supporters decry opponents of the mosque as bigots. They demonise and scold mainstream Americans who think otherwise. Even New Yorkers believe Muslims should show some sensitivity to the atrocities committed in the name of Islam on 9/11. A poll in The New York Times found that while 67 per cent agree the right to freedom of religion allows the building of the mosque, they believe the developers should find a different site. An editorial by the moralising New York Times would have none of that. Building the mosque would be "a gesture to Muslim-Americans", it lectured. What about a gesture from moderate Muslims?

In recent years the West has fallen over itself to accommodate Muslim sensitivities. In Britain, the BBC boss says Islam should be treated differently from other religions. American publishers pull books that might offend Muslim sensibilities. Television stations censor images of Mohammed. Why does the accommodation always run one way?

Moderate Muslims would surely understand tolerance is a two-way street. They might agree the building of a mosque at Ground Zero is a political, rather than a religious, point. Instead, there is just silence. Always silence.

That void is filled with voices that profess to be moderate but a closer look suggests they may not be; voices such Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam who wants to build the Ground Zero mosque. When he spoke at the Bob Hawke Prime Ministerial Centre in Adelaide in 2005, organisers lauded him as a man who has "dedicated his life to building bridges between Muslims and the West". In his "interfaith" address, Rauf described America as worse than al-Qa'ida. A moderate would acknowledge the atrocities Muslims have committed against Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of Islam. Rauf condemned the London bombings of 2005 as against Islamic law. A moderate would condemn terrorism and acknowledge the problem: Islam is used to fuel the violence. Asked about suicide bombers, the imam said there are always people willing to kill themselves, those jilted by lovers, those failing to get academic tenure and so on. A moderate Muslim would recognise that, once again, Islam is used to incite suicide bombers who kill innocent people.

In a BBC interview last month to coincide with the publication of his memoirs, former British prime minister Tony Blair described radical Islam as the greatest threat facing the world. He's correct. But a Western leader pointing the finger at radical Islam is the easy part. The harder task is for leaders and the rest of us: to request help in the form of far more moderation from those who describe themselves as moderate Muslims. Unless that happens, the clash of civilisations between Islam and the West will end very badly indeed.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/the-extremes-of-moderate-islam/story-e6frg6zo-1225940885857

Great read. Does a good job dismantling one of the prime apologist examples of a "moderate" Muslim state in Indonesia. Unless, of course, 28 attacks on Christian churches in the span of 10 months is what one would call "moderate". And then leftists have the gall to cry about a Koran burning.  ::)

Time for some reciprocity from the Muslim world.

blacken700

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 12:29:32 PM »

Janet Albrechtsen, yeah great source


 Janet Albrechtsen's View :: 09/09/2002
 

The Australian's flinty columnist Janet Albrechtsen blames the rapes on Islamic values.


‘French and Danish experts say perpetrators of gang rape flounder between their parents’ Islamic values and society’s more liberal democratic values, falling back on the most basic pack mentality of violence and self-gratification.’
The Australian July 2002

That's her core argument. Used more than once. Though Albrechtsen denies this, it seem to us she lifted the words from an article in The Times in December 2000.


‘Caught between their parents' Islamic values and societies Christian and social democratic values, some youths appear to have fallen back on the most basic instincts of violence and pleasure.’
The Times 5 December 2000

Except they aren't the findings of French and Danish experts, as Albrenchtsen says, just the words of Adam Sage, the journalist who wrote the piece in The Times.

She also lifts and twists what Sage says about a French psychotherapist. Here's Sage:


‘Jean-Jacques Rassial, a psychotherapist at Villetaneuse University, said gang rape had become an initiation rite for male adolescents in city suburbs.’
The Times 5 December 2000
Have a look »

And here's the Albrechtsen version:


‘Pack rape of white girls is an initiation rite of passage for a small section of young male Muslim youths, said Jean-Jacques Rassial, a psychotherapist at Villetaneuse University.’
The Australian 17 July 2002
Have a look »

Note how the victims become white, and the perpetrators become Muslim in Janet's hands. She went on to cite a Danish expert too:


‘Denmark presents a similar story. Last year, Flemming Balvig a criminologist at Copenhagen University, confirmed the French experience of this barbaric rite of passage into manhood for some of these young men.’
The Australian 17 July 2002

Not according to Balvig, who confirmed to Media Watch that Albrechsten misrepresents his work.


‘The citation is completely wrong. What I have said is, that the main explanation of gang rape probably is social, and not cultural or religious.’
Balvig to Media Watch

A long and unhappy exchange with Albrechtsen on these matters can be found on our web site.
Have a Look »


Sadly she was too busy to answer our questions about her latest column on Islam.


‘Defend to the death our Western ways'
‘How multicultural zealots set the scene for September 11.’
The Australian 4 September 2002

That's a pretty amazing argument and to back it Alebrechtsen once again plays fast and loose with her sources.


‘Expect condemnation if you put ‘militant’ and ‘Islam’ together. The Canadian Islamic Congress declared Canada’s National Post a ‘benchmark of what a newspaper should not be’ – code for offending Multicultural Man.’
The Australian 4 September 2002


That is not what the Canadian Islamic Congress said at all. The congress was making a very particular complaint about that newspaper.


‘The National Post has become a benchmark of what a newspaper should not be," said Elmasry. "It is the only newspaper in this country (aside from two minor community papers) that does not belong to a recognized Press Council.’
Statement by Canadian Islamic Congress

And here's Janet putting excuses for the rapists into the mouth of a Sydney spokesman for the Islamic community.


‘Muslim leader Keysar Trad said these boys were screaming for help: ‘They feel discriminated against at school [and] in the job market.’
The Australian 4 September 2002
Have a look »

Trad said nothing about "these boys" at all. He was speaking over a year ago, and not about the rapists but about the general problem of youth crime in his community.


‘These young people look at society as having failed them and they feel discriminated against at school, in the job market and they are trying to scream to society, trying to get them to take notice of their plight,’
Keyser Trad, Sydney Morning Herald 2001

As it happens, Janet, your Danish expert Flemming Balvig and Keysar Trad are saying much the same thing: right down deep the problem is not about race or religion.


‘Over the last 5-10 years there has been an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants….as a result many second generation immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape.’
Copenhagen Post 6 July 2001


For more on our exchange with Janet Albrechtsen and the sources for this story, click here. 
 

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2010, 12:32:08 PM »
Does the source really matter when everything she said is spot-on?

I didn't bother reading what you posted as it's incoherent and not sourced, my retarded, plagiarizing chum.  :)

You really don't learn from the previous beatings you've taken in threads involving Islam.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2010, 12:33:01 PM »
Does the source really matter when everything she said is spot-on?

I didn't bother reading what you posted as it's incoherent and not sourced, my retarded, plagiarizing chum.  :)

Considering blacken is a well known post thief - don't even bother. 

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 12:34:31 PM »
Considering blacken is a well known post thief - don't even bother. 

I stopped reading his posts a while ago. I don't read books written by fourth graders so why would I entertain one posting on this forum?

Wait, let me fix that. "eyE dun nawt enturteign fourf gradurs  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D"

::)

blacken700

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 12:37:59 PM »
if your going to post shit use a credible source ;D

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 12:39:35 PM »
if your going to post shit use a credible source ;D


Ha ha ha.   Priceless. 

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 12:40:32 PM »
if your going to post shit use a credible source ;D

Hahaha, this retard is talking about sources. When's the last time you sourced ANYTHING you post? And speaking of credibility, MSNBC youtube clips pulled off DU =/= credible.  

And for what it's worth, most of the time I don't bother looking at who writes articles until I've read them. Everything in that article is spot-on. But should we be surprised that a Muslim apologist like yourself is ignoring the article and instead choosing to attack the messenger?

Not surprising. Your intellectual capacity doesn't translate to good debate skills.
 
":D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D"

kcballer

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 12:59:10 PM »
Something doesn't add up.  She talks about Indonesia claiming to be moderate as a whole.  Then to dispel that she talks about an American doing something completely stupid, he's in a Muslim country not the other way around, she is acting as if it's okay to pull the plug on the pope at the Vatican when he's giving an address.   Then she goes on to give examples of minority extremism against Christians (wow 300 extremists really is a good population sample) and talks about the Ahmadiyah's fight for legitimacy which is a topic in and of itself because it's a relatively 'new' set of beliefs regarding Islam.  However the same could be said about Scientology which not recognized as a religion in Britain and yet i doubt anyone here would say Britain is not a welcoming country for most. 
Abandon every hope...

kcballer

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 01:00:51 PM »
At the topic at hand i do believe more moderate Muslims need to step up and voice the concern about extremist views and uncompromising rules.  It truly can not be a one way street.
Abandon every hope...

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 01:03:09 PM »
Something doesn't add up.  She talks about Indonesia claiming to be moderate as a whole.  Then to dispel that she talks about an American doing something completely stupid, he's in a Muslim country not the other way around, she is acting as if it's okay to pull the plug on the pope at the Vatican when he's giving an address.   Then she goes on to give examples of minority extremism against Christians (wow 300 extremists really is a good population sample) and talks about the Ahmadiyah's fight for legitimacy which is a topic in and of itself because it's a relatively 'new' set of beliefs regarding Islam.  However the same could be said about Scientology which not recognized as a religion in Britain and yet i doubt anyone here would say Britain is not a welcoming country for most.  

Not surprising it went right over your head.

Let me help you out and make it simple for you to understand. Indonesia is marketed by people like you as being an example of a moderate Muslim country that is full of tolerance. They talk about freedom of religion, tolerance and all that jazz when it's clear that this is not the case. Unless you think attacks on 28 churches is proof of acceptance.

Ask Pakistan's Ahamdi community how Muslims treat them. Oh wait, never mind. You and your fellow apologists in the MSM completely white-washed the massacre of 100 unarmed Ahmadis earlier this year.  ::)

kcballer

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 01:30:27 PM »
I never white washed anything.  Any attack on innocent people is a tragedy regardless of religious affiliation.  It strikes me as quite funny how you become a crusader for different groups only when it fits your anti-muslim ideals.  One minute you're all for Ahmadiyah rights, next it's animal rights, next it'll be something else you really don't care about by will somehow try to because doing so fits with your anti-Muslims belief set.  Sad really. 
Abandon every hope...

George Whorewell

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 01:53:06 PM »
Something doesn't add up.  She talks about Indonesia claiming to be moderate as a whole.  Then to dispel that she talks about an American doing something completely stupid, he's in a Muslim country not the other way around, she is acting as if it's okay to pull the plug on the pope at the Vatican when he's giving an address.   Then she goes on to give examples of minority extremism against Christians (wow 300 extremists really is a good population sample) and talks about the Ahmadiyah's fight for legitimacy which is a topic in and of itself because it's a relatively 'new' set of beliefs regarding Islam.  However the same could be said about Scientology which not recognized as a religion in Britain and yet i doubt anyone here would say Britain is not a welcoming country for most. 
More moral equivalency nonsense. Why don't you just teach a parrot how to type? It would save yourself the trouble of writing the same thing over and over again. Also, when you make these outrageous comparisons- pulling the plug on the pope at the Vatican compared to unplugging a speaker at a single mosque in Indonesia, are you being disingenuous, or are you just a moron?

Is sex and rape the same thing because the physical act of sexuality in itself is the same? How about randomly killing an innocent person versus shooting and killing a soldier during a war ? Making fun of someone versus beating them up?-- After all, words do hurt!

George Whorewell

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 01:58:52 PM »
I never white washed anything.  Any attack on innocent people is a tragedy regardless of religious affiliation.  It strikes me as quite funny how you become a crusader for different groups only when it fits your anti-muslim ideals.  One minute you're all for Ahmadiyah rights, next it's animal rights, next it'll be something else you really don't care about by will somehow try to because doing so fits with your anti-Muslims belief set.  Sad really. 

I agree. BF should become a rabid supporter of radical Islam so everything evens out in the end! If he is against radical Islam, the  purposeful torturing and suffering  of animals before they are unknowingly sold as food to non-muslims and the supression of religious freedom by the Muslim world, then he should be an equally avid crusader of radical Islam and Western appeasement so you feel better about posting here and don't call him an Islamophobe.

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 02:00:33 PM »
Hahahaha, good to see you setting him straight, George. Brutal, to say the least. ;D

kcballer

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 02:30:05 PM »
Oh it's georgie boy here to defend his bf (boy friend? beserk fury? either/or i guess)

Really reason goes out the window with you two.  Whatever you can say against Islam you will regardless of the truth behind the statements.  Hey i get it, we all get.  Anyone with half a brain gets it.  You hate Islam and no amount of reason to show you just how one sided the articles you post are will suffice. 

I really should blame myself for taking the bait, in future i will let your stupidity continue.   8)
Abandon every hope...

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 05:52:27 PM »
Oh it's georgie boy here to defend his bf (boy friend? beserk fury? either/or i guess)

Really reason goes out the window with you two.  Whatever you can say against Islam you will regardless of the truth behind the statements.  Hey i get it, we all get.  Anyone with half a brain gets it.  You hate Islam and no amount of reason to show you just how one sided the articles you post are will suffice. 

I really should blame myself for taking the bait, in future i will let your stupidity continue.   8)

Too funny. I'll take it to mean you can't actually refute anything. There's a surprise.

"Really reason goes out the window with you two.  Whatever you can say against Islam you will regardless of the truth behind the statements." This applies to you more than either of us. You are so clueless, so brain-washed, so naive that you are incapable of doing anything but entering a thread about Islam and throwing around your moral equivalence argument while you beat your chest about bigotry and islamophobia. Guess what? It doesn't work anymore. It's not working in the MSM and it's not working on here.

garebear

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 03:08:18 AM »
The author of the article probably went to college.

And I don't listen to elitists who think they're better than me.
G

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 05:12:01 AM »
The author of the article probably went to college.

And I don't listen to elitists who think they're better than me.

Considering the horrible result and effects of the policies of the self labeled "elitists", that is probably a good move. 

garebear

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 05:29:46 AM »
And I don't want my Doctors going to some fancy medical elitist school.

I would rather have my drinking buddy perform heart surgery on me. Hey, at least that's someone I could sit down and have a beer with.

G

Fury

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2010, 05:30:23 AM »
And I don't want my Doctors going to some fancy medical elitist school.

I would rather have my drinking buddy perform heart surgery on me. Hey, at least that's someone I could sit down and have a beer with.



Obamacare might grant you that wish.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2010, 05:33:40 AM »
And I don't want my Doctors going to some fancy medical elitist school.

I would rather have my drinking buddy perform heart surgery on me. Hey, at least that's someone I could sit down and have a beer with.



Ha ha , wait till that Cuban or Paki doc you can't understand is the only left to see you along with the dozens who just came before you and are waiting after you. 


George Whorewell

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2010, 07:06:12 AM »
And I don't want my Doctors going to some fancy medical elitist school.

I would rather have my drinking buddy perform heart surgery on me. Hey, at least that's someone I could sit down and have a beer with.


What the fuck are you talking about? A Doctor is trained to operate on the human body. He spends 7 years in medical school and goes through hundreds of hours working at a hospital before he gets his license. An elitist politician who went to Harvard and majored in public policy, or went to Harvard law school is no more qualified to govern than your drinking buddy. Maybe your drinking buddy can't use fancy words and has less polish, but assuming he's not psychotic and doesn't use the n word or the word "girl" in his every day vocabulary, why would I automatically assume that he wouldn't act in the best interest of the people? Your comparison is like saying that because I have a masters degree in military studies, I can kick most peoples asses in a street fight. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. 

garebear

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 02:58:19 PM »
Death panels.
G

Soul Crusher

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Re: Even for "moderate" Muslims, accommodation is a one-way street.
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 03:16:32 PM »
Death panels.

 ::) 

You do realize even Krugman admitted that there are death panels in the obamacare bill considering care delayed for so many elderly will be be the same as care denied.