Author Topic: Poor People Don't Pay Enough Taxes - Senator Hatch (Read 9783 times)

The Abdominal Snoman · « **Reply #100 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:20:03 PM »

Quote from: The Ugly on July 08, 2011, 07:15:13 PM

Yes it does. Their greed benefits us all.

Whats the end game? How much greed is too much? Has Capitalism jumped the shark?

tonymctones · « **Reply #101 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:21:36 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Magoo on July 08, 2011, 07:15:32 PM

Coach said that being poor was purely by choice. I said even if one had the complete opposite choice (They choose to try to better themselves by going to college, etc) then it is not a guarantee for success. Therefore Coach's point about being purely choice is invalid.

LOL i agree that its not simply by choice just like being rich isnt simply by being born into it or having natural ability that others dont have as in your athelete example...

but you didnt answer my question....supply and demand are one of the tenents of business.

To me for your socialist utopia to work every company would have to make the same amount, the same quality of product and all basically barter b/c your making the same wages your basically just exchanging products...

The Abdominal Snoman · « **Reply #102 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:25:40 PM »

Quote from: The Ugly on July 08, 2011, 07:17:51 PM

Why? She had no control over the situation. Punish her for bad genes, I don't get it.

Kids aren't a possession. So I don't see it as punishment. If her 'sickness" puts the kids in danger, then society needs to take them out of danger.

The Ugly · « **Reply #103 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:29:04 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Magoo on July 08, 2011, 07:18:04 PM

I disagree with "all". Their greed does not benefit all. It benefits only some while hurts the disadvantaged.

Sure it does. Some greedy medicine man developed the diabetes potion that keeps your probably fat, presumably lazy, obviously "disadvantaged" leech breathing. And another greedy man made one just like it, so now your poor friend is paying next to nothing.

Greed is good. Greed works.

Mr. Magoo · « **Reply #104 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:30:06 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on July 08, 2011, 07:21:36 PM

LOL i agree that its not simply by choice just like being rich isnt simply by being born into it or having natural ability that others dont have as in your athelete example...

but you didnt answer my question....supply and demand are one of the tenents of business.

To me for your socialist utopia to work every company would have to make the same amount, the same quality of product and all basically barter b/c your making the same wages your basically just exchanging products...

I do think being rich is in part a result of natural ability. I called it a general term: "the natural lottery" and this encompasses all of the things that aren't by individual choice.

The economic policy in theory would have to be reworked drastically. However, it is important to remember that the practicable concerns (Is it possible?) is very different from the desireable concerns (If it is possible, is it desireable?). I'm focusing more on the latter, saying that this is what is morally desireable.

oh by the way, thanks for agreeing that Coach is wrong

tonymctones · « **Reply #105 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Magoo on July 08, 2011, 07:30:06 PM

I do think being rich is in part a result of natural ability. I called it a general term: "the natural lottery" and this encompasses all of the things that aren't by individual choice.

The economic policy in theory would have to be reworked drastically. However, it is important to remember that the practicable concerns (Is it possible?) is very different from the desireable concerns (If it is possible, is it desireable?). I'm focusing more on the latter, saying that this is what is morally desireable.

oh by the way, thanks for agreeing that Coach is wrong

problem with your theory is that everyone has some natural ability that is marketable its whether they choose to exploit it or not...

and not it is not desireable b/c it would greatly limit innovation and drive...

again if the janitor makes as much as the CEO, why become a CEO?

Mr. Magoo · « **Reply #106 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:50:59 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on July 08, 2011, 07:34:59 PM

problem with your theory is that everyone has some natural ability that is marketable its whether they choose to exploit it or not...

and not it is not desireable b/c it would greatly limit innovation and drive...

again if the janitor makes as much as the CEO, why become a CEO?

They would choose to use their marketable natural ability if the market was turned by the wheels of benevolence instead of greed like it is now. For example, one of my professors is an Oxford graduate who could easily be working in the private sector for a large sum of money. He did not choose to follow his greed, but his benevolence, in deciding his career path. Ideally speaking, it is completely possible for people's benevolence to be a spark of motivation as opposed to their desire for a larger paycheck for example. Therefore, people would just as easily market their skill as they do now, and innovation and drive would be present. The CEO (to use your term) would be a CEO for the same reason my teacher decided to be a teacher, or the same reason some doctors decide to become doctors, or some scientists become scientists, etc. Not necessarily to make more money, but to use their natural abilities and talents for non-greed purposes.

Mr. Magoo · « **Reply #107 on:** July 08, 2011, 07:59:08 PM »

In regards to the thread's topic about the poor being poor by choice and that "if anybody works hard, then they can succeed" etc. This came out today. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/07/08/half-of-us-social-pr.html

Captain Equipoise · « **Reply #108 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:04:28 PM »

Quote from: The Abdominal Snoman on July 08, 2011, 07:05:32 PM

One of the untold secrets about the homeless are that its est. that 70% have sever mental illness which goes untreated in a lot of cases. And certainly not by choice. What looks like foolish choices to someone who is in line and following the rules is something much more complicated.

LOL I think this is pretty apparent, what sane person would choose to live in an alleyway in a cardboard box??!

I would venture to say that probably 85-90% of homeless have some kind of mental disease or complex

Coach is Back! · « **Reply #109 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:15:51 PM »

I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #110 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:17:13 PM »

Quote from: The Coach on July 08, 2011, 08:15:51 PM

I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.

Peggy joseph!

tonymctones · « **Reply #111 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:33:42 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Magoo on July 08, 2011, 07:50:59 PM

They would choose to use their marketable natural ability if the market was turned by the wheels of benevolence instead of greed like it is now. For example, one of my professors is an Oxford graduate who could easily be working in the private sector for a large sum of money. He did not choose to follow his greed, but his benevolence, in deciding his career path. Ideally speaking, it is completely possible for people's benevolence to be a spark of motivation as opposed to their desire for a larger paycheck for example. Therefore, people would just as easily market their skill as they do now, and innovation and drive would be present. The CEO (to use your term) would be a CEO for the same reason my teacher decided to be a teacher, or the same reason some doctors decide to become doctors, or some scientists become scientists, etc. Not necessarily to make more money, but to use their natural abilities and talents for non-greed purposes.

problem is it is still greed, im sure youve gone over the idea in one of your philosophy classes that there is no such thing as an altruistic act...

fact is they do derive some pleasure from doing what you feel is a benevolent act. That right there is greed just the same. The CEO's start desiring to be the best CEO so they compete...competition in your utopia is the enemy b/c competition leads to more greed no matter if its for money or for recognition or simply the good feeling you get from helping others...

Voice of Doom · « **Reply #112 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:45:18 PM »

Quote from: The Coach on July 08, 2011, 08:15:51 PM

I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.

Proverbs 21:13
If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered.

Coach is Back! · « **Reply #113 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:51:17 PM »

I give $10-20k per year in charity...you?

Mr. Magoo · « **Reply #114 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:52:11 PM »

Quote from: tonymctones on July 08, 2011, 08:33:42 PM

problem is it is still greed, im sure youve gone over the idea in one of your philosophy classes that there is no such thing as an altruistic act...

fact is they do derive some pleasure from doing what you feel is a benevolent act. That right there is greed just the same. The CEO's start desiring to be the best CEO so they compete...competition in your utopia is the enemy b/c competition leads to more greed no matter if its for money or for recognition or simply the good feeling you get from helping others...

being self interested is not the same as selfish. We do discuss egoism in ethics classes, but nobody believes it is true. There is such a thing as an altruistic act. See James Rachels.

http://people.umass.edu/cox/egoism.pdf (it's not straight so print it out or find another copy online)

Coach is Back! · « **Reply #115 on:** July 08, 2011, 08:53:52 PM »

BTW Von Doom, that's money I give freely not money that Obama wants to steal from me.

Voice of Doom · « **Reply #116 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:55:46 PM »

Quote from: The Coach on July 08, 2011, 08:53:52 PM

BTW Von Doom, that's money I give freely not money that Obama wants to steal from me.

If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.
--Job 13:5

tonymctones · « **Reply #117 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:05:00 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Magoo on July 08, 2011, 08:52:11 PM

being self interested is not the same as selfish. We do discuss egoism in ethics classes, but nobody believes it is true. There is such a thing as an altruistic act. See James Rachels.

http://people.umass.edu/cox/egoism.pdf (it's not straight so print it out or find another copy online)

doesnt matter whether you believe it or not its an arguable point and very logical...

and goes back to my point that morals arent universal and any theory that uses that as one of its premises isnt valid...

i.e. your utopia

Mr. Magoo · « **Reply #118 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:58:37 AM »

Quote from: tonymctones on July 09, 2011, 07:05:00 AM

doesnt matter whether you believe it or not its an arguable point and very logical...

and goes back to my point that morals arent universal and any theory that uses that as one of its premises isnt valid...

i.e. your utopia

The fact is that ethical egoism is NOT a fact, as shown by the Rachels piece. I hope you read the piece and saw the arguments against egoism.

I disagree with your point about all moral theories are subjective. The statement "all beliefs regarding moral theories are subjective" is itself a subjective statement and cannot be objectively true. So claiming that moral theories are subjective is a self defeating claim.

The Abdominal Snoman · « **Reply #119 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:17:07 PM »

Quote from: The Coach on July 08, 2011, 08:15:51 PM

I see a lot of pessimistic people in this thread who are just satisfied with the status quo and are pissed at people who want a better life for themselves and their families. I call most of these people lazy with no drive in life.

Don't you think conservatism might be the status quo? We should be living on other planets right now if it weren't for the Dark ages who thought science was witch craft...Lets just keep pushing forward and if and when we make mistakes along the way, who fucking cares, life isn't a precious as some want to believe. The WW2 generation are looked at as the greatest generation of all time. And these fools dropped an Atomic bomb on human fucking beings. Think about that for a second.

The Abdominal Snoman · « **Reply #120 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:22:26 PM »

Its human nature to want to progress...Every single part of our lives in surrounded by progression(Science,sports,technology, body, mind, spirit etc)...Why would anyone would to just slow it all down? Everything has a beginning---and everything has an end...Progress as much as you can in the time frame you have.