Author Topic: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney  (Read 2383 times)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2012, 06:37:22 PM »
Ok. Now you went and hurt my feelings.   :'(  But I am stunned that you are unable to articulate your position.  Didn't see that one coming.  lol

You could have watched that video and actually learned something in the time it took you to type that.



Sorry I hurt your feelings.  :P

Dos Equis

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »
You could have watched that video and actually learned something in the time it took you to type that.



Sorry I hurt your feelings.  :P

Or I could have watched it and wondered how I would have gotten those wasted 5 minutes of my life back.   :)

avxo

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2012, 07:06:13 PM »
Ok.  I reread more carefully.  I have no idea what you mean by "worth a chance at being president."  If you're talking about electability, I disagree.  If you're talking about ideological purity, I still disagree.  He's a politician.  More honest than most, but still a politician.  I don't trust any of them.  

I mean that I think he's the one whose ideas are the closest the those at the foundation of our Republic. Is he a politician? Sure. Can I be 100% sure that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims? No. But he's, in my estimation, the best person out of the names we hear tossed around. Does a vast majority of Americans disagree wit that estimation? Apparently yes.


I have not taken postgraduate level statistics, but I've been following politics for a long time.  Polls are first and foremost usual discussion pieces.  Secondly, they are fairly accurate predictors.  For example, you rarely see someone polling in fourth place by a large margin before the election pull out a victory, unless the voting population is relatively small.  

I agree that someone polling at the bottom consistently and across polls by different organizations with disjoint sample sets is exceedingly unlikely, barring some sort of "revelation", to pull an upset and win.


The polls leading up to every primary and caucus this year have been very accurate.

Just to add something to this, along with your previous reference about polls being fairly accurate predictors. Political polls are more than just predictors. They influence people too, and that's why they're a dangerous tool no matter how they are used. As I mentioned, voters can be very fickle, and poll results can easily sway their opinion. Heck, even the wording of a question can sway people.


I seriously doubt Ron Paul will capture a sizable percentage of votes in California.  He did not fare well in 2008 and will likely finish last this year.  In Texas, the fact he could finish last in his home state speaks volumes.  Newt won his "home" state.  Romney won his.  Santorum will probably win Pa.  Ron Paul just doesn't have a large enough following to make any long-lasting statement IMO.

I agree, contingent to the definition of sizable. I think if he manages to capture anything over an 8% it would be significant. Again, not in the sense that he suddenly becomes a front-runner, but in the sense that it shows that there is more to the party than just Rick Santorum and his obsession with porn and how gay men use their cocks.


I haven't heard the primal screams you're talking about.  The frontrunner (Romney) is talking primarily about the economy.  As in most presidential elections, the economy, defense, and taxes are the most important issues on the table.

Oh come now. We all know that are certain red-meat issues for both parties. Issues relating to homosexuals and religion play well with the GOP base. They are red meat and there's others too.

Consider Rick Santorum. He says that he doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people in the context of health insurance. But he finds it reasonable and proper for the Government to regulate the sexual practices of CONSENTING ADULTS on the grounds that he has a problem with those practices and he doesn't approve them. He holds similar opinions on issues like pornography.

Or Michelle Bachmann. She doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people either. But she's deathly afraid that two people half a continent away will, somehow, remotely and magically, threaten and devalue her marriage and the precious, precious children of all Americans. So she wants the Government to keep the degenerates from doing that. How? By preventing them from being able to file joint tax returns, take advantage of inheritance laws, and be privy to visitation rights in the hospital.

These are by no means the only red meat issues. There are others. Some fall into niches of the above categories. Others are categories of their own. These sort of issues play a huge role when people are running for the nomination of their party but once they get it, some pivot away from them, to varying degrees. We can discuss this in more detail if you prefer.



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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2012, 07:17:31 PM »
I mean that I think he's the one whose ideas are the closest the those at the foundation of our Republic. Is he a politician? Sure. Can I be 100% sure that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims? No. But he's, in my estimation, the best person out of the names we hear tossed around. Does a vast majority of Americans disagree wit that estimation? Apparently yes.


I agree that someone polling at the bottom consistently and across polls by different organizations with disjoint sample sets is exceedingly unlikely, barring some sort of "revelation", to pull an upset and win.


Just to add something to this, along with your previous reference about polls being fairly accurate predictors. Political polls are more than just predictors. They influence people too, and that's why they're a dangerous tool no matter how they are used. As I mentioned, voters can be very fickle, and poll results can easily sway their opinion. Heck, even the wording of a question can sway people.


I agree, contingent to the definition of sizable. I think if he manages to capture anything over an 8% it would be significant. Again, not in the sense that he suddenly becomes a front-runner, but in the sense that it shows that there is more to the party than just Rick Santorum and his obsession with porn and how gay men use their cocks.


Oh come now. We all know that are certain red-meat issues for both parties. Issues relating to homosexuals and religion play well with the GOP base. They are red meat and there's others too.

Consider Rick Santorum. He says that he doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people in the context of health insurance. But he finds it reasonable and proper for the Government to regulate the sexual practices of CONSENTING ADULTS on the grounds that he has a problem with those practices and he doesn't approve them. He holds similar opinions on issues like pornography.

Or Michelle Bachmann. She doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people either. But she's deathly afraid that two people half a continent away will, somehow, remotely and magically, threaten and devalue her marriage and the precious, precious children of all Americans. So she wants the Government to keep the degenerates from doing that. How? By preventing them from being able to file joint tax returns, take advantage of inheritance laws, and be privy to visitation rights in the hospital.

These are by no means the only red meat issues. There are others. Some fall into niches of the above categories. Others are categories of their own. These sort of issues play a huge role when people are running for the nomination of their party but once they get it, some pivot away from them, to varying degrees. We can discuss this in more detail if you prefer.



Agree with most everything you said here.
People are not only fickle, theyre fucking stupid and leading them to vote for someone (from what Ive seen) is as simple as leading a lamb to the slaughter.
Polls can be manipulated to show whatever the pollster wants, simply by picking the audience that they are polling.
As you said, polls also are a good tool for manipulating voters. If they feel their candidate has no shot at winning, then they probably will vote a different way. People are weird like that, almost no one has any conviction anymore. Their ideals change with the winds, their choices change from minute to minute.
And totally agree on the "red meat" issues, people get really fired up over stupid shit like gay marriage, especially Santorum who has made Porn and Gays a cornerstone of his election. To me, this is more a reflection on the voters than Santorum, it means there are enough people out there who really care about that shit to warrant him pandering to them. That scares me. In a time of economic crisis where our liberties are being stripped one after the other, the fact people are so hung up on what people do in their own bedroom simply horrifys me.
It shows an incredible lack of connection to whats going on in the country, that people are more concerned with forcing their beliefs and feelings on others, rather than letting other people make their own choices, just as they themselves are allowed to choose.

And the part about Ron Paul being closest to the foundation of our republic, I emphatically agree. To me, he represents the ideals this country is founded on. A few of his ideas are out there, yes, but more than likely those wouldnt pass through congress anyway. And you know with RP, he would respect Congress' power, as he would uphold the constitution.
I
s he a politician? Yes, but they all are, youre rolling the dice with any one of them. To me, Id rather roll the dice with the most seemingly principled one, who's ideas are most rooted in personal liberty and fiscal responsability, than shady big government types who only preach what people want to hear when theyre on screen, and then turn around and do the exact opposite.

Paul says the same thing, no matter whether the people like it or not. Its part of the reason he's perfect for the job, and part of the reason he'll never win.
Its sad to say, but he's too honest to win. People no longer respect that IMHO, they want someone who is going to say what they want to here, even if the next week he says something completely different to someone else.

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2012, 07:44:56 PM »
Sad but true.   I speak to a lot of people and the gibberish they speak that they think represents an informed opinion is embarrassing.  half the shit people think they know is just flat out false! 

Ron Paul is really the only one I would be voting for.    If it's myth - I will go to the polls sick to my stomach thinking it has come to this just to oust the communist traitor occupying the WH.

Dos Equis

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »
I mean that I think he's the one whose ideas are the closest the those at the foundation of our Republic. Is he a politician? Sure. Can I be 100% sure that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims? No. But he's, in my estimation, the best person out of the names we hear tossed around. Does a vast majority of Americans disagree wit that estimation? Apparently yes.


I agree that someone polling at the bottom consistently and across polls by different organizations with disjoint sample sets is exceedingly unlikely, barring some sort of "revelation", to pull an upset and win.


Just to add something to this, along with your previous reference about polls being fairly accurate predictors. Political polls are more than just predictors. They influence people too, and that's why they're a dangerous tool no matter how they are used. As I mentioned, voters can be very fickle, and poll results can easily sway their opinion. Heck, even the wording of a question can sway people.


I agree, contingent to the definition of sizable. I think if he manages to capture anything over an 8% it would be significant. Again, not in the sense that he suddenly becomes a front-runner, but in the sense that it shows that there is more to the party than just Rick Santorum and his obsession with porn and how gay men use their cocks.


Oh come now. We all know that are certain red-meat issues for both parties. Issues relating to homosexuals and religion play well with the GOP base. They are red meat and there's others too.

Consider Rick Santorum. He says that he doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people in the context of health insurance. But he finds it reasonable and proper for the Government to regulate the sexual practices of CONSENTING ADULTS on the grounds that he has a problem with those practices and he doesn't approve them. He holds similar opinions on issues like pornography.

Or Michelle Bachmann. She doesn't want Government intruding in the lives of people either. But she's deathly afraid that two people half a continent away will, somehow, remotely and magically, threaten and devalue her marriage and the precious, precious children of all Americans. So she wants the Government to keep the degenerates from doing that. How? By preventing them from being able to file joint tax returns, take advantage of inheritance laws, and be privy to visitation rights in the hospital.

These are by no means the only red meat issues. There are others. Some fall into niches of the above categories. Others are categories of their own. These sort of issues play a huge role when people are running for the nomination of their party but once they get it, some pivot away from them, to varying degrees. We can discuss this in more detail if you prefer.




The media can manipulate public opinion and does so all the time.  Polls can manipulate public opinion, but because they are typically fairly accurate when it comes to elections, what they primarily do is forecast how elections will turn out.  I'm not talking about opinion polls, but polls by reputable sources involving likely voters about how they intend to vote. 

If you were to actually look at Ron Paul's poll numbers in Texas, they are abysmal.  Here is the RCP average:

Santorum - 32.5 percent
Romney - 29.5 percent
Gingrich - 19.5 percent
Paul - 8.5 percent

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/tx/texas_republican_presidential_primary-1598.html

If this holds true, he will finish with more than 8 percent.  And you consider this significant?  I certainly don't.  This is a repudiation by the people who know him best.  And the fact every other candidate has won or will win his home state, but Ron Paul will finish last in his home state, shows just how weak of a candidate he is. 

There are certainly other issues that are part of the campaign, including social issues.  They appeal to a lot of people. But "primal screams"?  No.  The focus of any legitimate contender's campaign?  No.  It sounds like you don't like the fact they talk about social issues at all.

The fact is a substantial part of the voting public cares about social issues.  Nothing wrong with a candidate talking about those issues.   

avxo

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 09:33:47 PM »
If this holds true, he will finish with more than 8 percent.  And you consider this significant?  I certainly don't.  This is a repudiation by the people who know him best.  And the fact every other candidate has won or will win his home state, but Ron Paul will finish last in his home state, shows just how weak of a candidate he is.

I consider the fact that a candidate like Paul can garner 8% in the current political climate and in the Republican party of today quite impressive in itself. Especially given the fact that he is treated as a non-entity by the media at large. As for whether it's a repudiation by the people who know him best? I wouldn't go so far. Many of those people have sent him back to the House to take care of their business on more than one occasion, which says a lot.


There are certainly other issues that are part of the campaign, including social issues.  They appeal to a lot of people. But "primal screams"?  No.  The focus of any legitimate contender's campaign?  No.  It sounds like you don't like the fact they talk about social issues at all.

Of course it's primal screams. Santorum flies off the hinge when dealing with anything vaguely related to sex. He froths at the mouth! Get this straight:

Whether I, an adult, like to get paid to star on porn tapes with other consenting adults isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Whether I, an adult, like to buy porn tapes that feature other consenting adults, for my use isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Whether I, an adult, like to have promiscuous sex with a number of partners without being married isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Rick Santorum thinks it's appropriate to have legislation on the books detailing how you can use your dick with another consenting adult. Do you really want Santorum -- or any politician -- writing laws that control how you can fuck your girlfriend or wife?


The fact is a substantial part of the voting public cares about social issues.  Nothing wrong with a candidate talking about those issues.   


Frankly I don't care about candidates talking about social issues, except that I find the issue unimportant and outside the scope of of a proper Government. It's not the Government's job to regulate morality or to be the arbiter of what is socially acceptable.

But even so, a candidate can talk about anything he wants to about. The problem is that those candidates don't want stay at talk. Those candidates -- and their constituency -- want action to enforce their particular ridiculous moral code. But the problem is that in this country, the action that they seek is almost certainly unavailable, because the Government is limited by something called the Constitution.

The Republicans, in particular, are very fond of the Constitution. Some even have small breast-pocket copies printed, so they can have it with them all the time. And it's a good thing, because they reference it a lot. Except, you know... when its spirit or its text goes against what they seek to do. Then they just kind of forget about it.

There's a name for that sort of behavior.

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 09:41:40 PM »
I think it's clear as day you Paulbots live in a dream world.

Exposing your own bias...

Quote
 Listen closely:  

1.  Ron Paul will not be the GOP nominee for president.  

I know. I've already stated as much numerous times.

Quote
2.  The person who has won each caucus or primary will be awarded either their proportional share or winner-take-all delegates whenever their respective states meet, just like they are in every election.  It doesn't matter who the delegates are.  They always follow the popular vote (meaning the person who won the state, and finished second, etc.).  This is true both at the state level and in the electoral college.    


You clearly do not understand the difference between a caucus and a primary. Delegates in a caucus are not awarded on proportionality. They are awarded by a whole series of voting for delegates that ends at the state convention. The problem (for the other candidates) is that their voters do not understand this, go vote in the straw poll preceding the caucus, and then go home. Ron Paul supporters stay after and elect the delegates at the precinct level who later go to county conventions and run shit. From there, some make it to state conventions and then the national convention.

Quote
3.  If something in modern history happens, that hasn't happened before, and there is a brokered convention, Ron Paul will not be the nominee.  He's in last place nationally, has not won a single primary or caucus, and is even polling last in his home state.  He will not have the votes at a brokered convention to be the nominee.    

I don't doubt this.

Quote
4.  Keep listening to people like Ron Paul's campaign manager who says Texas and California are in play for Ron Paul, and you will continue to be nothing more than a Paulbot.
\

I never said he has a fighting chance in Texas or California.

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2012, 09:54:38 PM »
I consider the fact that a candidate like Paul can garner 8% in the current political climate and in the Republican party of today quite impressive in itself. Especially given the fact that he is treated as a non-entity by the media at large. As for whether it's a repudiation by the people who know him best? I wouldn't go so far. Many of those people have sent him back to the House to take care of their business on more than one occasion, which says a lot.


Of course it's primal screams. Santorum flies off the hinge when dealing with anything vaguely related to sex. He froths at the mouth! Get this straight:

Whether I, an adult, like to get paid to star on porn tapes with other consenting adults isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Whether I, an adult, like to buy porn tapes that feature other consenting adults, for my use isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Whether I, an adult, like to have promiscuous sex with a number of partners without being married isn't any of Rick Santorum's business. Or any of your business. Or, frankly, the Government's business.

Rick Santorum thinks it's appropriate to have legislation on the books detailing how you can use your dick with another consenting adult. Do you really want Santorum -- or any politician -- writing laws that control how you can fuck your girlfriend or wife?



Frankly I don't care about candidates talking about social issues, except that I find the issue unimportant and outside the scope of of a proper Government. It's not the Government's job to regulate morality or to be the arbiter of what is socially acceptable.

But even so, a candidate can talk about anything he wants to about. The problem is that those candidates don't want stay at talk. Those candidates -- and their constituency -- want action to enforce their particular ridiculous moral code. But the problem is that in this country, the action that they seek is almost certainly unavailable, because the Government is limited by something called the Constitution.

The Republicans, in particular, are very fond of the Constitution. Some even have small breast-pocket copies printed, so they can have it with them all the time. And it's a good thing, because they reference it a lot. Except, you know... when its spirit or its text goes against what they seek to do. Then they just kind of forget about it.

There's a name for that sort of behavior.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Ron Paul's performance in his home state is significant.  

I haven't watched Santorum much the past couple months, but I haven't seen any frothing at the mouth.  You have a clip of him with this primal scream stuff?  

Regarding porn, etc., I'm not a libertarian who believes we shouldn't regulate public decency in some form.  I look at the impact this stuff can have on kids, especially with the internet.  I think we (society) should decide what those regulations or restrictions should be.  It's something that should be part of the public discourse and should be part of someone's campaign, if they are passionate about that issue.  They are speaking for millions of Americans.  

Also, there is a reason why libertarians are not major players:  they don't represent the majority of the public's views.

There is an enormous difference between regulating what goes on in the bedroom between consenting adults and what gets put out on the public airways (internet, TV, etc.).  

In any event, Santorum is not going to be the nominee.  Romney has this all but wrapped up.  Unless Romney starts talking about porn, this is nothing more than message board material.   :)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 10:25:08 PM »
Exposing your own bias...

I know. I've already stated as much numerous times.


You clearly do not understand the difference between a caucus and a primary. Delegates in a caucus are not awarded on proportionality. They are awarded by a whole series of voting for delegates that ends at the state convention. The problem (for the other candidates) is that their voters do not understand this, go vote in the straw poll preceding the caucus, and then go home. Ron Paul supporters stay after and elect the delegates at the precinct level who later go to county conventions and run shit. From there, some make it to state conventions and then the national convention.

I don't doubt this.
\

I never said he has a fighting chance in Texas or California.

This is the part he refuses to or simply cant comprehend.  

Im curious, if all the candidates stay in to the end, what do you think would be the odds of no one gettting to the magic number of 1144? I know Gingrich has pretty much stalled but I wonder if they could still siphon off as much delegates off each other to have a brokered convention.

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2012, 10:30:38 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Ron Paul's performance in his home state is significant.  

I haven't watched Santorum much the past couple months, but I haven't seen any frothing at the mouth.  You have a clip of him with this primal scream stuff?  



Santorum is a hostile, man child. I gave him credit when he kept his cool as all those students got on his nuts about his gay comments but he huffs and puffs all the time about some bullshit. He cant handle his emotions.

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Re: Poll: Ron Paul More Electable Than Mitt Romney
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2012, 03:06:12 AM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Ron Paul's performance in his home state is significant.  
I haven't watched Santorum much the past couple months, but I haven't seen any frothing at the mouth.  You have a clip of him with this primal scream stuff?  
Regarding porn, etc., I'm not a libertarian who believes we shouldn't regulate public decency in some form.  I look at the impact this stuff can have on kids, especially with the internet.  I think we (society) should decide what those regulations or restrictions should be.  It's something that should be part of the public discourse and should be part of someone's campaign, if they are passionate about that issue.  They are speaking for millions of Americans.  
Also, there is a reason why libertarians are not major players:  they don't represent the majority of the public's views.
There is an enormous difference between regulating what goes on in the bedroom between consenting adults and what gets put out on the public airways (internet, TV, etc.).  
In any event, Santorum is not going to be the nominee.  Romney has this all but wrapped up.  Unless Romney starts talking about porn, this is nothing more than message board material.   :)
A flip-flopping liar has this thing all wrapped up. Sad, very sad...