Author Topic: Obamacare is so unpopular that Senate Republicans are already planning to....  (Read 4138 times)

howardroark

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2524
  • Resident Objectivist & Autodidact
Straw Man, 99% of politicians are political opportunists. The only reason why most Republican politicians are now against the individual mandate is because:
1. The Democrats are for it.
and
2. They need to satisfy the grassroots and let them know that they really are the lesser of two evils.

Just flip a few things around in the above and the same applies for most Democrat politicians.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920
What do any of you naysayers about "Obamacare" think would be the best health-care solution for this country? Of the developed countries we have perhaps the worst health-care system. More U.S. citizens go without health-care than in any other developed country in the world. I suspect if one is among the lucky few who have employer provided medical benefits, health-care reform seems unnecessary. For the masses who have no health-care coverage, health-care reform is pretty important. Keep in mind that for all those folks who utilize health-care via an emergency room and who have no means to pay for their services, those of us who are able to purchase health-care insurance, are in fact paying for those who cannot.

Given that the average Getbigger is almost a juvenile heath-care insurance probably seems like an expensive luxury. And like most healthy young persons, one never imagines they could get seriously ill, but they can. Trust me on this, one medical episode can wipe a person out.

howardroark

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2524
  • Resident Objectivist & Autodidact
What do any of you naysayers about "Obamacare" think would be the best health-care solution for this country?

A free market as opposed to the maze of bullshit restrictions and mandates that currently drive up health care costs.

Quote
Of the developed countries we have perhaps the worst health-care system.

That is actually a statistically false claim. If you look at the WHO's own data (which is cited as proof for America's poor health-care system), then you'll notice that there are numerous subrankings included for the countries. As it turns out, the USA comes out #1 when it comes to the actual quality of the the health care provided. The overall rating is much lower because the WHO includes subrankings on price to the consumer qua consumer as well as multiple subrankings on issues of "fairness" and "equality." But it really should come as no surprise that higher quality health care costs more.

Quote
More U.S. citizens go without health-care than in any other developed country in the world.

Not necessarily... perhaps more US citizens lack health INSURANCE than in any other developed country in the world, but health care itself? That's a different ball game. Citizens in countries with single-payer systems more often than not have long waits on waiting lists in order to see specialists. Also, the US is the most advanced when it comes to number and quality of medical equipment, such as CAT scans.

Quote
I suspect if one is among the lucky few who have employer provided medical benefits, health-care reform seems unnecessary. For the masses who have no health-care coverage, health-care reform is pretty important. Keep in mind that for all those folks who utilize health-care via an emergency room and who have no means to pay for their services, those of us who are able to purchase health-care insurance, are in fact paying for those who cannot.

Which is a good argument for getting rid of that rule. If someone falls behind on their medical bills and the hospital decides to waive it in the name of charity, fine. But the hospital, as well as other medical organizations, should have the right to go after someone's assets if they fail to pay for the services they received.

Quote
Given that the average Getbigger is almost a juvenile heath-care insurance probably seems like an expensive luxury. And like most healthy young persons, one never imagines they could get seriously ill, but they can. Trust me on this, one medical episode can wipe a person out.

Health insurance wouldn't be an expensive luxury if it weren't for government interference. Examples:

1. Mandates - This is a matter of consumer choice: why do I have to pay for services that I don't want? As a young guy, I'll pass on the coverage of boner pills like viagra. As a male, I'll pass on the coverage of pregnancy-related stuff. As a non-addict, I'll pass on the coverage of drug and alcohol addiction treatment. If we got rid of all of these mandates and allowed consumers to choose the kind of coverage they want, then people would be able to get affordable health insurance plans. For example, someone who is young and healthy (such as myself) should be able to get a plan with a high deductible that covers only catastrophic events and illnesses (you know: the ORIGINAL point of INSURANCE). This is a low risk, so it wouldn't cost much to get such insurance. At the same time, if something catastrophic happened (e.g. it turns out I have cancer), then the hit to my pocketbook is limited thanks to the insurance.

2. Competition - States set their own rules regarding health insurance companies, and many times oligopolies rule the day in individual states. If these rules were wiped out, then there could be national competition among dozens of insurance companies, all seeking to provide the best coverage for the lowest possible price.

3. Licensing - Another issue of consumer choice: It should be up to me who does my medical shit, not some government-created cartel. A lot of routine medical issues can be handled by nurses or others who don't have an MD. So getting rid of licensing and the whole BS behind that would allow for more opportunities and thus lower prices. Also, it wouldn't unfairly discriminate against alternative approaches to health, wellness, and medicine.

4. Medical Schools - This is related to point #3. There are numerous states that have only one medical school. Why? In order to limit the number of MDs in that state. It's protectionism and government-sponsored cartelization in its most blatant form. Obviously putting a

5. Ending Third-Party Payment - Or at least stop subsidizing it. Right now, employers get a tax break for providing their workers with health insurance, while individual citizens do not get a comparable tax break for getting their own health insurance. Obviously, such a policy discriminates against the unemployed and the self-employed. Also, it forces individuals to change health insurers or health plans every time they get a different job. But worse of all, it delinks the need of the consumer to price-shop. If the employer pays for the insurance coverage in part or in fool, then the employee/consumer has less of a reason to shop around and look for more affordable coverage. Also, I'll add in a point here that is an intersection between this area and the area of insurance mandates (point #1): a lot of times, mandates require coverage of just ridiculous things (e.g. why the fuck do I have to pay for women's contraceptives and old farts' boner pills?). And when something is covered in full or in part, then that encourages people to consume more of that good or service. That, in turn, drives up health insurance costs. This is again an example of when someone pays for something that you buy, the price-tag isn't as important to you. However, when everyone does this, it ends up having a negative impact on everyone by driving up costs. That's the situation we're in right now with the health care and health insurance in the United States. Returning to a simple free market in this area would undo most of the damage and drastically reduce costs.

6. Changing Medical Tort Law - I think everyone agrees that our whole legal system is simply fucked. So, obviously, this carries over to medical tort law as well. Outrageous law suits often ruin doctors financially, which leads them to conduct all sorts of unnecessary testing and procedures on patients just stay on the safe-side and avoid getting sued. This adds substantially to health care costs. Simple reforms, such as requiring people that lose civil suits compensate the defendant for the legal services they purchased, could go a long way toward eliminating baseless law suits or at least leaving doctors more confident to not spend money on tests and procedures that don't need coverage.

7. Eliminating the Paperwork - Walk into your doctor's office. Count the number of doctors and nurses working there. Then count all of the receptionists and other pencil-pushers. Frequently, the pencil-pushers outnumber the actual medical staff. Why? Mostly because of the numerous government restrictions, regulations, etc. regarding health insurance. Because doctors don't have the time to deal with health insurance companies, they have to hire additional staff. Of course, these costs get passed via higher prices.

8. Hospitals - Another point similar to points #2, #3, and #4. Try opening a hospital. You'll discover that you can only do so if you're permitted by a board of representatives from local hospitals. It's another example of government cartelization that greatly limits competition and thus increases costs.

P.S. My girlfriend stepped on my kindle thereby breaking it, so as of right now I am working out of memory and without citations. Sorry.

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
the federal government forces you to buy into social security

what's the difference?


Good point.  Let's get rid of Social Security too.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920
P.S. My girlfriend stepped on my kindle thereby breaking it, so as of right now I am working out of memory and without citations. Sorry.

Sorry for not reiterating your excellent responses to my comments, but I didn't think it wise to bore the crew here.

One thing that stuck me was your suggestion that each of us should be able to opt out of various benefits when purchasing medical insurance. While I think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt the medical insurance providers would go for it. It is my understanding that those of us who have low usage actually subsidize the heavy users. I suspect this change would make medical insurance not afordable for people with a lot of health issues, if they could even get coverage at all. Of course one could argue that would be an incentive for folks to take better care of their health....which would actually be oversimplifying the situation since there are many who have poor health though no fault of their own.

Incidentally, most providers do not cover erectile dysfunction medications and when they do, it is at a very low level. I purchase a "Cadillac" medical insurance plan with fairly expensive premiums. I have purchased Viagra in the past. Six pills (which is the max my insurance will allow for a month) were something like a $70 co-pay. Interestingly enough, one can purchase these medon-linene from India for a fraction of that price.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920

Good point.  Let's get rid of Social Security too.

Let me guess....you are so young that you don't believe you will either need nor will have Social Security available. If our legislators stopped tapping Social Security to help cover the national debt, it would be still be healthy.

Tell me again to get rid of Social Security after you've paid into it, like I have, for over 50 years. Oh, OK get rid of Social Security but give me and everyone else back all the money we've paid into it all these years first.

Shockwave

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20807
  • Decepticons! Scramble!
Let me guess....you are so young that you don't believe you will either need nor will have Social Security available. If our legislators stopped tapping Social Security to help cover the national debt, it would be still be healthy.

Tell me again to get rid of Social Security after you've paid into it, like I have, for over 50 years. Oh, OK get rid of Social Security but give me and everyone else back all the money we've paid into it all these years first.
We've all paid into it. The problem is coming, its not a sustainable system. People draw a lot more than they put it - eventually, people that paid in their whole life will have nothing to draw anyway. If its not your generation, its going to be down the road.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920
We've all paid into it. The problem is coming, its not a sustainable system. People draw a lot more than they put it - eventually, people that paid in their whole life will have nothing to draw anyway. If its not your generation, its going to be down the road.

Keep in mind, the legislature is robbing from Social Security to pay the national debt. This is a good part of why it is currently not a sustainable system. Also, there are hoards of folks drawing money out of Social Security that have paid little or nothing into the system. Social Security is like welfare for the disabled regardless that many are disabled as a result of their own making, such as drug abuse. My nephew who is in his 20's draws Social Security Disability because he is ADHD. He has barely worked at all. Whatever he has paid into SS is negligible.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39832
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Keep in mind, the legislature is robbing from Social Security to pay the national debt. This is a good part of why it is currently not a sustainable system. Also, there are hoards of folks drawing money out of Social Security that have paid little or nothing into the system. Social Security is like welfare for the disabled regardless that many are disabled as a result of their own making, such as drug abuse. My nephew who is in his 20's draws Social Security Disability because he is ADHD. He has barely worked at all. Whatever he has paid into SS is negligible.


That is also a good point considering 5 million people recently went on SSDI. 

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920

That is also a good point considering 5 million people recently went on SSDI. 

Interesting information; can you explain why the recent upsurge?

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39832
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Interesting information; can you explain why the recent upsurge?

I'll dig it out later but there has been huge increase in SSDI

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Straw Man, 99% of politicians are political opportunists. The only reason why most Republican politicians are now against the individual mandate is because:
1. The Democrats are for it.
and
2. They need to satisfy the grassroots and let them know that they really are the lesser of two evils.

Just flip a few things around in the above and the same applies for most Democrat politicians.

I agree with you on everything stated above but I have not seen the Dems do a 180 on their own proposed legislation as soon as the Repub POTUS got on board.  It may have happened but, to the best of my recollection I just don't recall it happening.  If it has happened (again, I just can't recall so not saying it hasn't) it was not at the level we've seen with the Repubs under Obama

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana

Good point.  Let's get rid of Social Security too.

good luck selling that idea to anyone

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920
I'll dig it out later but there has been huge increase in SSDI

Perhaps joblessness is the new disability.

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Let me guess....you are so young that you don't believe you will either need nor will have Social Security available. If our legislators stopped tapping Social Security to help cover the national debt, it would be still be healthy.

Tell me again to get rid of Social Security after you've paid into it, like I have, for over 50 years. Oh, OK get rid of Social Security but give me and everyone else back all the money we've paid into it all these years first.



No, I don't think it will be around.  People like you would have to be grandfathered in, of course.




good luck selling that idea to anyone


333386 is already sold on the idea.


Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40920

No, I don't think it will be around.  People like you would have to be grandfathered in, of course.


Thats a nice thought. However, the only way Social Security goes away is that it goes under in my opinion. If that happens, how can anyone be grandfathered in? Furthermore, lets say the legislature decided to end Social Security. How would they decide where to cut people off from being grandfathered into the system? ....at 10, 20 or 30 years in the system? Would folks be refunded what they'd paid into Social Security?

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Thats a nice thought. However, the only way Social Security goes away is that it goes under in my opinion. If that happens, how can anyone be grandfathered in? Furthermore, lets say the legislature decided to end Social Security. How would they decide where to cut people off from being grandfathered into the system? ....at 10, 20 or 30 years in the system? Would folks be refunded what they'd paid into Social Security?



It doesn't matter how...NOBODY will be happy.  Just man up (or woman up)...do the right thing...and cut your losses (the Congresspeople who make the vote).