Author Topic: High rep traning for gains?  (Read 11569 times)

Viking11

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2012, 09:34:08 PM »
That is exactly what I said?
Is it? Then you and Mike Mentzer agree. I lifted that straight from his footnotes. (I have carte blanche).

Viking11

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2012, 09:36:02 PM »
Citing research from 1917 and 1955 along with spelling errors?
To back up what I said earlier about this not being new. It's a quoted footnote.

dj181

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2012, 02:30:09 AM »
The research is saying this:

More powerful training leads to hypertrophy. Power is expressed as load lifted in a unit of time. To do a more powerful working and stimulate hypertrophy, you must move greater loads in the same period of time.

More intense training leads to hypertrophy. Standard scientific definition (the one the researchers are talking about in this case) of intensity is percent of 1 rep max. So, more intense lifting (i.e. greater number of reps at greater 1RM thresholds) leads to hypertrophy.

You can't lift a can of coke and get big. The researchers are stating precisely that this is not possible. That time worked does not appear to be correlated to hypertrophy. Which makes sense. Otherwise, walking down the street for more hours each night would lead to massive Tom Platz-like quads.

It's about power, and intensity. Nothing else. How we cycle, and use those priniciples, with our own given genetic make-up, while avoiding injury, determines peak physical development as it pertains to training modalities. That's about it.

In short: if you aren't hypertrophying, add more intensity, or more power, or both. Or maybe you've max'd out. Of maybe you don't eat well enough. Or maybe you don't rest enough. Or maybe you need more/better drugs.

correcto-mundo

jprc10

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2012, 06:40:23 AM »
The research is saying this:

More powerful training leads to hypertrophy. Power is expressed as load lifted in a unit of time. To do a more powerful working and stimulate hypertrophy, you must move greater loads in the same period of time.

More intense training leads to hypertrophy. Standard scientific definition (the one the researchers are talking about in this case) of intensity is percent of 1 rep max. So, more intense lifting (i.e. greater number of reps at greater 1RM thresholds) leads to hypertrophy.

You can't lift a can of coke and get big. The researchers are stating precisely that this is not possible. That time worked does not appear to be correlated to hypertrophy. Which makes sense. Otherwise, walking down the street for more hours each night would lead to massive Tom Platz-like quads.

It's about power, and intensity. Nothing else. How we cycle, and use those priniciples, with our own given genetic make-up, while avoiding injury, determines peak physical development as it pertains to training modalities. That's about it.

In short: if you aren't hypertrophying, add more intensity, or more power, or both. Or maybe you've max'd out. Of maybe you don't eat well enough. Or maybe you don't rest enough. Or maybe you need more/better drugs.

Intensity means effort, not weight as in a percentage of 1rep max unless you're speaking in terms of pure strength training. Of course heavier can be more intense, but not always. And one doesn't need to train 'heavy' as in low reps to develop muscle.

If people are really interested in research regarding hypertrophy and fiber recruitment, I recommend to search and read work done by Carpinelli, Jungblut or Burd on the size principle, especially Carpinelli.

mesmorph78

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2012, 07:36:32 AM »
another high rep arm day today...
looking foward to it
choice is an illusion

snx

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2012, 07:54:38 AM »
Intensity means effort, not weight as in a percentage of 1rep max unless you're speaking in terms of pure strength training. Of course heavier can be more intense, but not always. And one doesn't need to train 'heavy' as in low reps to develop muscle.

If people are really interested in research regarding hypertrophy and fiber recruitment, I recommend to search and read work done by Carpinelli, Jungblut or Burd on the size principle, especially Carpinelli.

Sorry, but the research community doesn't agree with your definition of intensity. Intensity is defined as % of 1RM lifted. Still is today. I'm not sure where you've got your definitions from. Happy to learn more though, so I'm challenging in a friendly way here. No slam.

Your definition is more qualitative and nebulous. Let's test your definition of "effort". How would you quantify "effort" in a laboratory? If you can't quantify effort, then how can you quantify "intensity"? Yet, we all agree intensity correlates to hypertrophy.

Heavier weights will always be more "intense", by the standard definition of intensity. So I don't agree with you there, and haven't seen the community change its stance on that either.

Could you be confusing perceived effort with intensity? The former is more difficult to measure quantitatively, hence, why it's rarely cared about in research. After all, one man's pill is another's poison. One man's perceived effort can only be measured with qualitative questionnaires, which are notoriously ambiguous in providing any type of precision.

Yet, I will agree with you that more intense loading with each subsequent workout (as defined by 1RM) is not necessary to produce hypertrophy. I alluded to that in my above post. One could increase powerful lifting during a session, and increase hypertrophy. To employ more powerful lifting, all one needs to do is lift the same amount of weight, but do it in a shorter period of time. Or lift even lighter weight still, but do it so quickly that the power output of the workout (measured in joules/second) is greater than what the lifter did with a heavier load in a longer period of time. Louis Simmons employs this principle with his Westside barbell training modalities. As do most Olympic Lifters. So it's quite common and accepted. No one would argue that more powerful lifting doesn't increase hypertrophy, even if intensity is decreased.

jprc10

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2012, 08:20:20 AM »
Sorry, but the research community doesn't agree with your definition of intensity. Intensity is defined as % of 1RM lifted. Still is today. I'm not sure where you've got your definitions from. Happy to learn more though, so I'm challenging in a friendly way here. No slam.

Your definition is more qualitative and nebulous. Let's test your definition of "effort". How would you quantify "effort" in a laboratory? If you can't quantify effort, then how can you quantify "intensity"? Yet, we all agree intensity correlates to hypertrophy.

Heavier weights will always be more "intense", by the standard definition of intensity. So I don't agree with you there, and haven't seen the community change its stance on that either.

Could you be confusing perceived effort with intensity? The former is more difficult to measure quantitatively, hence, why it's rarely cared about in research. After all, one man's pill is another's poison. One man's perceived effort can only be measured with qualitative questionnaires, which are notoriously ambiguous in providing any type of precision.

Yet, I will agree with you that more intense loading with each subsequent workout (as defined by 1RM) is not necessary to produce hypertrophy. I alluded to that in my above post. One could increase powerful lifting during a session, and increase hypertrophy. To employ more powerful lifting, all one needs to do is lift the same amount of weight, but do it in a shorter period of time. Or lift even lighter weight still, but do it so quickly that the power output of the workout (measured in joules/second) is greater than what the lifter did with a heavier load in a longer period of time. Louis Simmons employs this principle with his Westside barbell training modalities. As do most Olympic Lifters. So it's quite common and accepted. No one would argue that more powerful lifting doesn't increase hypertrophy, even if intensity is decreased.

It is very difficult to measure perceived effort I agree, but not fiber recruitment also known as motor unit activation for the 'science' guys. I'll post a quote from this guy Carpinelli on how this is done:

"Motor unit activation level (AL) can be measured by comparing voluntary and induced response. “During an MVC [maximal voluntary contraction], a supramaximal [greater than maximum] electrical stimulus is superimposed with surface electrodes onto a muscle or its nerve,” Carpinelli explains. “When the superimposed twitch technique is applied properly, the electrical stimulus fully activates all the motor units in the pool. If all the motor units have been recruited [voluntarily] and are firing at optimal frequencies, no additional force will be detected [as a result of the electrical stimulus].”

Motor unit activation studies, writes Carpinelli, “strongly support” the size principle. “It is the intensity of effort that determines the AL of motor units and the resultant force output. A greater effort produces greater motor unit activation. Maximal effort produces maximal, or near maximal, activation of motor units. The resultant force, which is the dependent variable—not the independent variable—is a maximal force produced in a specific individual for a specific exercise. It is entirely dependent on the intensity of effort. However, it is important to recognize that none of the [AL] studies speculate on a minimal recruitment threshold for strength gains…A maximal effort only insures maximal voluntary motor unit activation.”


IMO, the bottom line is progressive overload, always striving to lift a little heavier or more reps over time. Training with close to max efforts may be more effective at inducing hypertrophy due to the increased fiber recruitment or motor unit activation.

My point with all of this is that 'heavy' as in low reps is not needed and that high reps work just as well, because it is progressive overload and degrees of effort that matter.

Moen

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2012, 08:24:08 AM »
The research is saying this:

More powerful training leads to hypertrophy. Power is expressed as load lifted in a unit of time. To do a more powerful working and stimulate hypertrophy, you must move greater loads in the same period of time.

More intense training leads to hypertrophy. Standard scientific definition (the one the researchers are talking about in this case) of intensity is percent of 1 rep max. So, more intense lifting (i.e. greater number of reps at greater 1RM thresholds) leads to hypertrophy.

You can't lift a can of coke and get big. The researchers are stating precisely that this is not possible. That time worked does not appear to be correlated to hypertrophy. Which makes sense. Otherwise, walking down the street for more hours each night would lead to massive Tom Platz-like quads.

It's about power, and intensity. Nothing else. How we cycle, and use those priniciples, with our own given genetic make-up, while avoiding injury, determines peak physical development as it pertains to training modalities. That's about it.

In short: if you aren't hypertrophying, add more intensity, or more power, or both. Or maybe you've max'd out. Of maybe you don't eat well enough. Or maybe you don't rest enough. Or maybe you need more/better drugs.

The research I was talking about clearly distinguished between intensity (which is an intrinsic process) and load on the bar (which is extrinsic). It's all about how hard you work, NOT about how much load is on the bar since that has no 1 on 1 transference on what is actually going on inside your body.


My remark about the can of coca cola holds true, if one were to be able to generate enough intensity with that can of coke, it would elicit hypertrophy.

Moen

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2012, 08:26:57 AM »
Intensity means effort, not weight as in a percentage of 1rep max unless you're speaking in terms of pure strength training. Of course heavier can be more intense, but not always. And one doesn't need to train 'heavy' as in low reps to develop muscle.

If people are really interested in research regarding hypertrophy and fiber recruitment, I recommend to search and read work done by Carpinelli, Jungblut or Burd on the size principle, especially Carpinelli.

Carpinelli. That's the name I was looking for.

snx

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2012, 08:40:00 AM »
It is very difficult to measure perceived effort I agree, but not fiber recruitment also known as motor unit activation for the 'science' guys. I'll post a quote from this guy Carpinelli on how this is done:

"Motor unit activation level (AL) can be measured by comparing voluntary and induced response. “During an MVC [maximal voluntary contraction], a supramaximal [greater than maximum] electrical stimulus is superimposed with surface electrodes onto a muscle or its nerve,” Carpinelli explains. “When the superimposed twitch technique is applied properly, the electrical stimulus fully activates all the motor units in the pool. If all the motor units have been recruited [voluntarily] and are firing at optimal frequencies, no additional force will be detected [as a result of the electrical stimulus].”

Motor unit activation studies, writes Carpinelli, “strongly support” the size principle. “It is the intensity of effort that determines the AL of motor units and the resultant force output. A greater effort produces greater motor unit activation. Maximal effort produces maximal, or near maximal, activation of motor units. The resultant force, which is the dependent variable—not the independent variable—is a maximal force produced in a specific individual for a specific exercise. It is entirely dependent on the intensity of effort. However, it is important to recognize that none of the [AL] studies speculate on a minimal recruitment threshold for strength gains…A maximal effort only insures maximal voluntary motor unit activation.”


IMO, the bottom line is progressive overload, always striving to lift a little heavier or more reps over time. Training with close to max efforts may be more effective at inducing hypertrophy due to the increased fiber recruitment or motor unit activation.

My point with all of this is that 'heavy' as in low reps is not needed and that high reps work just as well, because it is progressive overload and degrees of effort that matter.

I've read Carpinelli's stuff. I like the way he lays out his toughts.

But nothing he says disagrees with what I said. In fact, what I said is pretty much a simple derivation of what he's said.

Carpinelli is telling us that at a maximal voluntary contraction, which requires the highest intensity level (which he defines at %1RM in his papers), the entire pool of motor units is recruited, and hence, the fibers ascribed to those motor units contract. All of them. In accordance with the size principle, of course. Therefore, past the level intensity that triggers a maximal voluntary contraction of the entire motor unit pool in a muscle, you can't recruit more muscle fibers. You've already recruited all the ones you can ever recruit. And the force output you get out of maximal recruitment is a defined factor (i.e. the dependent variable). You apply more intensity, you get more recruitment, you get more force out of the muscle via contracting more fibers.

I don't want to assume I know what you're trying to tell me, but I think I have an idea. We're probably saying the same things, just that we disagree on the terminology. Plus, it's Friday end of month, and I've done my mandatory 5 posts on training science for the month per my contract with Ron, so I'm going to back out now. I talk a big game on the science of training because it's my educational background.

In reality, 95% of your results come from picking up something heavy and lifting it a lot. The other 5% comes from knowledge of training programs and how to cycle them. If you're an elite athlete, it matters. If you just want to get bigger and stronger for whatever reason, it doesn't matter that much. Until you get older and want to prevent injuries. Then it matters a bit more. But not too much.

I like to talk about training modalities, only because I have shit genetics, and I studies it a ton in school hoping that knowledge would help me overcome shitty genetics. It does not. I've told a million stories about guys who eat/train like shit who look way better than I ever could, all while I was studying under Tudor Bompa.


jprc10

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Re: High rep traning for gains?
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2012, 08:51:19 AM »
I've read Carpinelli's stuff. I like the way he lays out his toughts.

But nothing he says disagrees with what I said. In fact, what I said is pretty much a simple derivation of what he's said.

Carpinelli is telling us that at a maximal voluntary contraction, which requires the highest intensity level (which he defines at %1RM in his papers), the entire pool of motor units is recruited, and hence, the fibers ascribed to those motor units contract. All of them. In accordance with the size principle, of course. Therefore, past the level intensity that triggers a maximal voluntary contraction of the entire motor unit pool in a muscle, you can't recruit more muscle fibers. You've already recruited all the ones you can ever recruit. And the force output you get out of maximal recruitment is a defined factor (i.e. the dependent variable). You apply more intensity, you get more recruitment, you get more force out of the muscle via contracting more fibers.

I don't want to assume I know what you're trying to tell me, but I think I have an idea. We're probably saying the same things, just that we disagree on the terminology. Plus, it's Friday end of month, and I've done my mandatory 5 posts on training science for the month per my contract with Ron, so I'm going to back out now. I talk a big game on the science of training because it's my educational background.

In reality, 95% of your results come from picking up something heavy and lifting it a lot. The other 5% comes from knowledge of training programs and how to cycle them. If you're an elite athlete, it matters. If you just want to get bigger and stronger for whatever reason, it doesn't matter that much. Until you get older and want to prevent injuries. Then it matters a bit more. But not too much.

I like to talk about training modalities, only because I have shit genetics, and I studies it a ton in school hoping that knowledge would help me overcome shitty genetics. It does not. I've told a million stories about guys who eat/train like shit who look way better than I ever could, all while I was studying under Tudor Bompa.




I agree completely with the bold part. I just wanted to show that high reps work just as good as low reps when it comes to muscle growth, which is what the OP was asking I think.