Matt C was right? A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History

[RRKore]

And then what? 

Fer science, mang.  It's like climbing a mountain -- ya do it because it's there.

[Archer77]

And then what? 

A lot of things.   If we understand the variations we can better adjust medical treatments and educational methods to address the biological differences.

[Archer77]

I think BB means that for some people the whole issue will be about justification for racial discrimination and he's right about that.

Personally, I think the subject is fascinating.  

I will say that tracking mental traits, even emotional ones, and linking them to certain alleles (sp?) seems like it'd be a whole lot more difficult than doing the same with physical traits, I think.

I mean, it's pretty obvious which parent red-headed Blake Griffin gets his jumping ability from but I'm not so sure about his pugnaciousness and general douchebaggery, lol.

I understand what hes saying but I believe the fear of negative consequences is overstated.   Besides,  I prefer truth over the fantasy that we are all essentially the same.

[RRKore]

I understand what hes saying but I believe the fear of negative consequences is overstated.   Besides,  I prefer truth over the fantasy that we are all essentially the same.

Me, too.

[Dos Equis]

A lot of things.   If we understand the variations we can better adjust medical treatments and educational methods to address the biological differences.

Call me a cynic, but I doubt that is why people do this kind of research. 

And think about adjusting "educational methods."  How does that happen practically speaking?  Does is it justify giving preferential treatment to people who might be deemed inferior?  Do you put people in a special ed class based on race (or mixed race)? 

And what about the blood quantum?  Someone has to be responsible for that.  You cannot just go by how someone looks.  Who is going to do, or submit to, genetic testing to determine their precise ethnic background?  That's some straight up Gattaca stuff right there. 

[Archer77]

Call me a cynic, but I doubt that is why people do this kind of research. 

And think about adjusting "educational methods."  How does that happen practically speaking?  Does is it justify giving preferential treatment to people who might be deemed inferior?  Do you put people in a special ed class based on race (or mixed race)? 

And what about the blood quantum?  Someone has to be responsible for that.  You cannot just go by how someone looks.  Who is going to do, or submit to, genetic testing to determine their precise ethnic background?  That's some straight up Gattaca stuff right there. 

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

[Dos Equis]

I think BB means that for some people the whole issue will be about justification for racial discrimination and he's right about that.

Personally, I think the subject is fascinating.  

I will say that tracking mental traits, even emotional ones, and linking them to certain alleles (sp?) seems like it'd be a whole lot more difficult than doing the same with physical traits, I think.

I mean, it's pretty obvious which parent red-headed Blake Griffin gets his jumping ability from but I'm not so sure about his pugnaciousness and general douchebaggery, lol.

It isn't just about trying to justify a wrongheaded superiority/inferiority argument, it's also that the number of mixed race people in the country make purported conclusions unreliable.  

Take the guy you just mentioned (Griffin).  His mom appears to be white and his dad appears to be black.  And what if Griffin marries a woman from American Samoa and produced babies.  How would you classify his kids?  (We have those kind of mixes all over the place here.)  

[Dos Equis]

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

That doesn't address the practical problems I raised.  Nobody is going to implement genetic testing for the purpose of determining that a particular ethnic group is intellectually inferior. 

[Archer77]

That doesn't address the practical problems I raised.  Nobody is going to implement genetic testing for the purpose of determining that a particular ethnic group is intellectually inferior. 

We test for many different forms of impairment.   

[Dos Equis]

We test for many different forms of impairment.   

None of them race-based. 

[Archer77]

None of them race-based. 

They are biological.   What else are we to do?  If the tendency for violence and intelligence are strongly linked to genetic factors, how can we solve the problem?    I dont know.  We can't ignore it.

[Dos Equis]

They are biological.   What else are we to do?  If the tendency for violence and intelligence are strongly linked to genetic factors, how can we solve the problem?    I dont know.  We can't ignore it.

So on one hand you say this isn't about labeling groups as superior, inferior, etc., but then you talk about intelligence being linked to genetic factors, which in this context means ethnic genetic factors?  Sounds inconsistent. 

Even if we assume some races are more violent or dumber than others (I don't agree with that), there is no way to make policy on that basis, for all of the reasons I mentioned. 

[Archer77]

So on one hand you say this isn't about labeling groups as superior, inferior, etc., but then you talk about intelligence being linked to genetic factors, which in this context means ethnic genetic factors?  Sounds inconsistent. 

Even if we assume some races are more violent or dumber than others (I don't agree with that), there is no way to make policy on that basis, for all of the reasons I mentioned. 

Its not inconsistent.   If someone shows ability in a given field no test will impede their progress. What I'm saying is,  if such things as violence and intelligence are genetic, what is the solution?  Do we ignore the problem and hope for the best?   

[Dos Equis]

Its not inconsistent.   If someone shows ability in a given field no test will impede their progress. What I'm saying is,  if such things as violence and intelligence are genetic, what is the solution?  Do we ignore the problem and hope for the best?   

To be more specific, you're saying what if such things as violence and intelligence are race-based.  

Even if we assume those things can be determined (which I doubt), what we cannot do is develop public policy on that basis.  

If someone commits an act of violence, they should be punished.  If someone is unable to succeed academically, then they need to find another route for success.  

[RRKore]

It isn't just about trying to justify a wrongheaded superiority/inferiority argument, it's also that the number of mixed race people in the country make purported conclusions unreliable.  

Take the guy you just mentioned (Griffin).  His mom appears to be white and his dad appears to be black.  And what if Griffin marries a woman from American Samoa and produced babies.  How would you classify his kids?  (We have those kind of mixes all over the place here.)  

I classify his kids as likely NFL players, lol.

[Jack T. Cross]

Everyone is an individual. No other way to look at it.

[24KT]

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

[Archer77]

To be more specific, you're saying what if such things as violence and intelligence are race-based.  

Even if we assume those things can be determined (which I doubt), what we cannot do is develop public policy on that basis.  

If someone commits an act of violence, they should be punished.  If someone is unable to succeed academically, then they need to find another route for success.  

Im saying if it is genetic, what do we do?  Ive already stated that ability should be the only judgment.   Why cant such things be determined?  After all, its a matter of biology. 

[JOHN MATRIX]

How exactly would that work?  Select an entire race and preclude them from entering the country and/or becoming citizens? 

Most countries are much more strict about this than western ones are. It is a perfectly natural and reasonable strategy to follow, and has pretty much been the norm for human history. Not 100% absolute exclusion based on race alone, but rather limits on certain groups/nationalities from coming in large numbers and changing/degrading the host nation/culture.

Its only considered racist if a white country does it

[JOHN MATRIX]

Everyone should have the right of equal opportunity.  Their ability should be the only criteria by which they are judged.   Acknowledging the possibility that some people no matter how hard they try arent capable of achieving the same  academic success as others is a tough pill to swallow but its better than living the lie

This. Exactly. There is a reason why all the money and programs america has thrown at the 'academic results inequality' problem has completely failed to acheive the desired results...and deep down most people know that reason. Its the 800lb gorilla in the room that they all want to pretend isnt there

[Dos Equis]

I classify his kids as likely NFL players, lol.

lol.  Well played.   

[Dos Equis]

Everyone is an individual. No other way to look at it.

Exactly.  Completely agree.