Turkey Fans Boo Moment of Silence for Paris Attacks and Yell Allahu Akbar

[Yamcha]

someone yelled something mean at the Packers game during the moment of silence.

it's what people do.  who cares?   both sides' people do it.  Talk away, words don't hurt. 

Unfortunately, that isn't the case with my generation today... 
Take away fathers and bullies, what's left? just pussies

[Tapeworm]

someone yelled something mean at the Packers game during the moment of silence.

FUDGE PACKERS!

[Kwon_2]

TURKEY FANS OF PEACE

[SuperTed]

I always have mixed feelings when I read something like this.

On one hand I agree that it's idiotic to believe that U.S policy can sort out the Middle East. It will either not help or make things worse.

But, not for a fraction of a second do I believe that the U.S is the cause of the problems. Without any U.S involvement at all, the Middle East would still be a shithole.

Of course, the eyes point out, not in, and it's much easier to blame others for your problems than to blame yourself.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the middle east would be a utopia had it not been for US involvement, but more that it would be a lot better off than it is now.
Nations like Iraq were relatively stable up until the bombs began to drop.

I think it's somewhat delusional to think that these proxy wars haven't had a major impact when it comes to the rise of terrorism.
Even many patriotic Americans like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan regularly acknowledge the role US foreign policy has played in the creation of Islamic terrorism. It's not the only cause, but it is a major factor which can't be ignored.

[Yamcha]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the middle east would be a utopia had it not been for US involvement, but more that it would be a lot better off than it is now.
Nations like Iraq were relatively stable up until the bombs began to drop.

I think it's somewhat delusional to think that these proxy wars haven't had a major impact when it comes to the rise of terrorism.
Even many patriotic Americans like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan regularly acknowledge the role US foreign policy has played in the creation of Islamic terrorism. It's not the only cause, but it is a major factor which can't be ignored.

I wouldn't equate genocide with stability, but that's just me...

[local hero]

I wouldn't equate genocide with stability, but that's just me...

As much as the west doesn't like to admit it the middle east needs ruthless/evil dictators to keep the fanatics to toe the line... Soon as there was any disquiet anywhere a whole village would be wiped out or entire families would vanish in the middle of the night, its the only way that they had 'peace'

[SuperTed]

I wouldn't equate genocide with stability, but that's just me...

It had it's problems but nothing that the US should have gone to war over (although the US never really gave a fuck what Saddam did to the Kurds anyway).

Besides, why hasn't the US got involved in the genocide taking place in Sudan? It's far worse than what occured in Iraq.

[Yamcha]

Well, we are damned if we do nothing, damned if we act. Might as well profit off of it, amirite?

[Thin Lizzy]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the middle east would be a utopia had it not been for US involvement, but more that it would be a lot better off than it is now.
Nations like Iraq were relatively stable up until the bombs began to drop.

I think it's somewhat delusional to think that these proxy wars haven't had a major impact when it comes to the rise of terrorism.
Even many patriotic Americans like Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan regularly acknowledge the role US foreign policy has played in the creation of Islamic terrorism. It's not the only cause, but it is a major factor which can't be ignored.

I don't disagree with most of your post except for part about it being better without U.S involvement. I happen to be a Ron Paul guy, and have read more than my share of Mises, but, Liberatarians tend to sound like leftists with regard to foreign policy.

Without U.S involvement, the Middle East would still be a shithole of tyrannical dictators trying to keep a lid on the ever-present sectarian fighting. Just the fact that you admit that Iraq was better off under a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussain speaks volumes.

The difference is that the people would have to direct their anger, for their miserable state of affairs, solely at their own governments. U.S foreign policy doesn't create the anger. It deflects it.

[local hero]

I don't disagree with most of your post except for part about it being better without U.S involvement. I happen to be a Ron Paul guy, and have read more than my share of Mises, but, Liberatarians tend to sound like leftists with regard to foreign policy.

Without U.S involvement, the Middle East would still be a shithole of tyrannical dictators trying to keep a lid on the ever-present sectarian fighting. Just the fact that you admit that Iraq was better off under a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussain speaks volumes.

The difference is that the people would have to direct their anger, for their miserable state of affairs, solely at their own governments. U.S foreign policy doesn't create the anger. It deflects it.

Are you serious, you think the overwhelming majority wouldnt go back to sadam or ghaddafi in a heart beat, the 'normal' civilians had a normal life, went to work and had stability, there will be civil wars for decades

[MAXX]

ye turks are muslim scum

[SuperTed]

I don't disagree with most of your post except for part about it being better without U.S involvement. I happen to be a Ron Paul guy, and have read more than my share of Mises, but, Libertarians tend to sound like leftists with regard to foreign policy.

Without U.S involvement, the Middle East would still be a shithole of tyrannical dictators trying to keep a lid on the ever-present sectarian fighting. Just the fact that you admit that Iraq was better off under a brutal dictator like Saddam Hussain speaks volumes.

The difference is that the people would have to direct their anger, for their miserable state of affairs, solely at their own governments. U.S foreign policy doesn't create the anger. It deflects it.

I think the difference between leftists and libertarians is that leftists often tend to be self loathing so their views are tainted with bias, while libertarians at least can't be accused of this. I think Ron Paul is just seeing the bigger picture and realizes how wasteful these conflicts are.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/november/15/paris-and-what-should-be-done/

http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/article-archives/blowback-can-be-prevented

The Middle East has problems that will probably continue for another few centuries. However, if these nations are democracies or run by dictators, does it really make much difference to our lives? Do you care if they have poor human rights? I don't. It's their lands and they can run it as they wish.

I'd rather they direct their anger at their own governments, than direct it as us.