Colorado shooting

[TuHolmes]

Yes it was a sidestep to say it's not important to determine when brainwaves begin, when you're trying to be precise about when human life begins. 

If you agree with him then tell me when human brainwaves begin. 

I can tell you where they end.

Ask Terry Shaivo.

Seems a valid point. If there is no brain activity then it's the same as being brain dead.

Which is really "dead" for those who don't get it.

[avxo]

So what if a cell has the same DNA as a fertilized egg?  Of course it will.  So will a fingerprint, hair follicle, skin, etc.  None of those, standing alone, makes a human being.  That really makes no sense.

See, now we're getting somewhere: the zygote expresses proteins different than a fingerprint. This is a quantifiable difference we can work with. But then, what about taking a cell and altering it to change protein expression? While it's presently beyond our abilities, it's not a stretch to imagine that in the future we could fully clone a human by taking a cell and altering protein expression to match those of a zygote. And what then? There will have been no moment of conception.

I don't prefer a "soul" analogy and not sure why you make that assumption.

I said that you might prefer it. Whether you do or don't, is fine by me.

Is a person who is "brain dead" always literally dead?

Well, considering how someone who is brain dead won't breathe without artificial support, I'd say that if "brain dead" is at least equivalent to "about to die in the next few seconds..."

But yes, there is a difference between the two states otherwise we wouldn't have the distinction of "dead" vs. "brain dead". One refers to the status of the mobile brain container (i.e. the body) and the other refers to whether the brain has permanently and irreversibly ceased functioning.

Like a car on cruise control can continue coasting with a dead driver at the wheel, a body that's provided with artificial life support can continue operating without a brain, usually as a means of keeping organs viable for transplantation to save lives.

Funny how you try and completely sidestep precisely when human life begins when you have to specifically talk about when your own views, rather than some unrealistic hypothetical involving someone else.  You want to be precise when it comes to a "zygote," which no women ever really know about, but when it comes to your own views, it's "not important" to be precise.

But I'm not trying to sidestep anything. It's not that I don't think it's important to be precise. It's that I don't think it's practical or necessary to know exactly when that line is crossed and the fetus shows human brain patterns. What's important is whether the line has been crossed.

It's not practical because it would require that women be connected to bulky equipment all the time.

And it's not necessary, because the precise moment when it happens is not important in the sense that what really matters is whether they're present or not, because if they are present now but weren't present before, we can say that at some point between the last scan and the current scan the line was crossed, and what we want is to be able to have a clear answer: "which side of the line are we on?"

Can you explain why you believe this is insufficient and why we need to pinpoint the very moment where the fetal brain begins showing human brainwave patterns, which, by the way, can be as early as 5 weeks.

[LurkerNoMore]

I can tell you where they end.

Ask Terry Shaivo.

Seems a valid point. If there is no brain activity then it's the same as being brain dead.

Which is really "dead" for those who don't get it.

HAHHAHAHA.  Who was that dipshit that refuted her doctors claims of her condition after watching a few seconds of taped video of her? 

[Dos Equis]

See, now we're getting somewhere: the zygote expresses proteins different than a fingerprint. This is a quantifiable difference we can work with. But then, what about taking a cell and altering it to change protein expression? While it's presently beyond our abilities, it's not a stretch to imagine that in the future we could fully clone a human by taking a cell and altering protein expression to match those of a zygote. And what then? There will have been no moment of conception.


I said that you might prefer it. Whether you do or don't, is fine by me.


Well, considering how someone who is brain dead won't breathe without artificial support, I'd say that if "brain dead" is at least equivalent to "about to die in the next few seconds..."

But yes, there is a difference between the two states otherwise we wouldn't have the distinction of "dead" vs. "brain dead". One refers to the status of the mobile brain container (i.e. the body) and the other refers to whether the brain has permanently and irreversibly ceased functioning.

Like a car on cruise control can continue coasting with a dead driver at the wheel, a body that's provided with artificial life support can continue operating without a brain, usually as a means of keeping organs viable for transplantation to save lives.


But I'm not trying to sidestep anything. It's not that I don't think it's important to be precise. It's that I don't think it's practical or necessary to know exactly when that line is crossed and the fetus shows human brain patterns. What's important is whether the line has been crossed.

It's not practical because it would require that women be connected to bulky equipment all the time.

And it's not necessary, because the precise moment when it happens is not important in the sense that what really matters is whether they're present or not, because if they are present now but weren't present before, we can say that at some point between the last scan and the current scan the line was crossed, and what we want is to be able to have a clear answer: "which side of the line are we on?"

Can you explain why you believe this is insufficient and why we need to pinpoint the very moment where the fetal brain begins showing human brainwave patterns, which, by the way, can be as early as 5 weeks.

So now you're talking about clones?  When we are able to clone human beings, then we talk about it.  Until then, it's science fiction. 

If it's important to know whether a line has been crossed after brainwaves begin, then of course you need to know when brainwaves begin. 

It's not really important to me when brainwaves begin.  I asked the question to clarify when you believe human life begins.  In response, you brought up brainwaves.  Just trying to determine your starting point.  Doesn't sound like you have one.  For me, it's at conception, so brainwaves are not a relevant consideration to me for when human life begins. 

Just like the person I had this discussion with last week who said he believes life begins when the heart starts beating.  That happens at about six weeks, so in his mind, human life begins at six weeks. 

[avxo]

So now you're talking about clones?  When we are able to clone human beings, then we talk about it.  Until then, it's science fiction. 

If it's important to know whether a line has been crossed after brainwaves begin, then of course you need to know when brainwaves begin. 

It's not really important to me when brainwaves begin.  I asked the question to clarify when you believe human life begins.  In response, you brought up brainwaves.  Just trying to determine your starting point.  Doesn't sound like you have one.  For me, it's at conception, so brainwaves are not a relevant consideration to me for when human life begins. 

Just like the person I had this discussion with last week who said he believes life begins when the heart starts beating.  That happens at about six weeks, so in his mind, human life begins at six weeks. 

You don't know when conception happens - it can be hours after sex. So you don't know when your "line" is crossed either.

[Dos Equis]

You don't know when conception happens - it can be hours after sex. So you don't know when your "line" is crossed either.

Conception happens when the sperm fertilizes the egg.  So what if that happens hours or a day after sex?

I didn't bring up a "line" for my own analysis.  A "line" is important to you.  But you don't even know where your own line is. 

[avxo]

Conception happens when the sperm fertilizes the egg.  So what if that happens hours or a day after sex?

Same for me: you have a human (instead of an embryo) when human brainwave patterns first appear. Who cares when that happens?

I didn't bring up a "line" for my own analysis.  A "line" is important to you.  But you don't even know where your own line is.

If you want to debate a topic you should strive to do so honestly. You asked me "When do you believe life begins?" I answered that it's when human brain wave patterns appear.

You claim that I don't know where my own line is. You're, at best, being dishonest. Where my line is crystal clear. You just don't like the fact that without real-time monitoring, I can't pinpoint the exact time when the line is crossed. But that's not important. It's not important because all that matters is whether, at a given point in time, the line has been crossed.

You claim that you didn't bring up a line, but you did: you stated that life begins at conception. That's a line. And, for the record, you can't pinpoint the exact point in time when the line is crossed either. As a matter of fact, it's much easier to do that for my line than for yours.

If you want to debate this, I'm happy to. I feel strongly that my position is the best we can hope to do, but I'm open to changing if I can be convinced that another position is better.

If you don't want to debate this, then stop trolling and move along.

[Dos Equis]

Same for me: you have a human (instead of an embryo) when human brainwave patterns first appear. Who cares when that happens?


If you want to debate a topic you should strive to do so honestly. You asked me "When do you believe life begins?" I answered that it's when human brain wave patterns appear.

You claim that I don't know where my own line is. You're, at best, being dishonest. Where my line is crystal clear. You just don't like the fact that without real-time monitoring, I can't pinpoint the exact time when the line is crossed. But that's not important. It's not important because all that matters is whether, at a given point in time, the line has been crossed.

You claim that you didn't bring up a line, but you did: you stated that life begins at conception. That's a line. And, for the record, you can't pinpoint the exact point in time when the line is crossed either. As a matter of fact, it's much easier to do that for my line than for yours.

If you want to debate this, I'm happy to. I feel strongly that my position is the best we can hope to do, but I'm open to changing if I can be convinced that another position is better.

If you don't want to debate this, then stop trolling and move along.

Whatever.  You said this:

Now on the question of when these "identifiable human brainwave patterns" begin. It's not important to pinpoint the exact point in time down to the nanosecond, or even down to the hour. What is important is that, at any given point in time, we can check whether they are present.

You believe life begins when identifiable brainwaves appear, but it's "not important" know at stage those brainwaves appear?  Is it 6 weeks?  Twelve?  Twenty-four? 

Unless you believe human life begins at conception, then there is going to be some point during the baby's development when you do believe it begins, which shouldn't be that difficult to determine (e.g., my friend's belief life begins when the heart starts beating, which happens at about 6 weeks).   

The "line" is your straw man. 

 

[Agnostic007]

Dos, are you being dense on purpose? Just asking..

[avxo]

Whatever.

You believe life begins when identifiable brainwaves appear, but it's "not important" know at stage those brainwaves appear?  Is it 6 weeks?  Twelve?  Twenty-four?

You're misrepresenting my position - a position that you just freaking quoted. Are you dishonest or stupid?

Let's look at what I said: "Now on the question of when these "identifiable human brainwave patterns" begin. It's not important to pinpoint the exact point in time down to the nanosecond, or even down to the hour. What is important is that, at any given point in time, we can check whether they are present."

You had asked me when I think human life begins. Specifically, you said: "Is it conception?  Heartbeat?  Viability?  Birth?"

I answer than I think that human life begins when brainwave patterns that are typical of a human begin. But I was making the point that the exact time when that happen isn't important, since all we need to know for purposes of abortion (which is what we were discussing) is whether they are present or not.

You can pretend that not knowing the exact time when this happens matters, but know that it just makes you look like a fool, moreso becauseyou can't pinpoint the exact time the ovum is fertilized either.

Unless you believe human life begins at conception, then there is going to be some point during the baby's development when you do believe it begins, which shouldn't be that difficult to determine (e.g., my friend's belief life begins when the heart starts beating, which happens at about 6 weeks).

First of all, unless you strap on a fetal heart rate monitor on every pregnant woman, it's very difficult to determine when the heart starts beating. But that's not a problem.

Assume that we agree to adopt your friend's definition: human life begins when the heart starts beating. It's important to realize that, while we consider life to begin at the first heart beat, we don't need to pinpoint the exact point in time when that beat too place for any given fetus. What matters is whether it started beating: if it wasn't the last time you checked but is now, then you know that a human life begun at some point between the last check and now.

Remember, that we were discussing abortion and whether it's murder. Assume that we still adopt your friend's definition and agree that human life begins when the heart starts beating. Then for the purposes of abortion all that matters is if the heart is beating at the time the process is performed. If it's not, then the abortion can't be murder, since there's no human life to end.

This is why I say that pinpointing the "when" exactly isn't important.

The "line" is your straw man.

What about your straw man? Can you pinpoint the exact moment in time when your line is crossed? Can you, for that matter, explain exactly what your line is? You say that it's "conception". But what do you mean by that? Be as specific as possible.

[Dos Equis]

You're misrepresenting my position - a position that you just freaking quoted. Are you dishonest or stupid?

Let's look at what I said: "Now on the question of when these "identifiable human brainwave patterns" begin. It's not important to pinpoint the exact point in time down to the nanosecond, or even down to the hour. What is important is that, at any given point in time, we can check whether they are present."

You had asked me when I think human life begins. Specifically, you said: "Is it conception?  Heartbeat?  Viability?  Birth?"

I answer than I think that human life begins when brainwave patterns that are typical of a human begin. But I was making the point that the exact time when that happen isn't important, since all we need to know for purposes of abortion (which is what we were discussing) is whether they are present or not.

You can pretend that not knowing the exact time when this happens matters, but know that it just makes you look like a fool, moreso becauseyou can't pinpoint the exact time the ovum is fertilized either.


First of all, unless you strap on a fetal heart rate monitor on every pregnant woman, it's very difficult to determine when the heart starts beating. But that's not a problem.

Assume that we agree to adopt your friend's definition: human life begins when the heart starts beating. It's important to realize that, while we consider life to begin at the first heart beat, we don't need to pinpoint the exact point in time when that beat too place for any given fetus. What matters is whether it started beating: if it wasn't the last time you checked but is now, then you know that a human life begun at some point between the last check and now.

Remember, that we were discussing abortion and whether it's murder. Assume that we still adopt your friend's definition and agree that human life begins when the heart starts beating. Then for the purposes of abortion all that matters is if the heart is beating at the time the process is performed. If it's not, then the abortion can't be murder, since there's no human life to end.

This is why I say that pinpointing the "when" exactly isn't important.

What about your straw man? Can you pinpoint the exact moment in time when your line is crossed? Can you, for that matter, explain exactly what your line is? You say that it's "conception". But what do you mean by that? Be as specific as possible.

Now that's the avxo I know.  Surprised you lasted so many posts.  But great progress.   

I just explained the distinction between conception and some other marker.  We know conception happens whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg.  Whether that happens at one or 24 hours after sex is completely irrelevant to this discussion. 

Using any other measure means you believe human life begins at some concrete time after conception.  I asked you to state when that moment is for you.  You mentioned brainwaves.  When I asked when brainwaves begin, you said it doesn't matter.  Of course it matters.  It's the benchmark for human life in your mind.   

I don't have a straw man.  As I said, the "line" is your issue, not mine.  I never brought that up as it relates to my belief about when human life begins. 

I've already stated, repeatedly, that I believe life begins at conception.  Google "conception" if you need more specifics about exactly what that means.  It's not that hard to determine.  Unless you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, trying to play devil's advocate, etc.   

[avxo]

I just explained the distinction between conception and some other marker.  We know conception happens whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg.  Whether that happens at one or 24 hours after sex is completely irrelevant to this discussion. 

You didn't explain it. You just vigorously button-mashed your keyboard and pressed submit.

Using any other measure means you believe human life begins at some concrete time after conception.  I asked you to state when that moment is for you.  You mentioned brainwaves.  When I asked when brainwaves begin, you said it doesn't matter.  Of course it matters.  It's the benchmark for human life in your mind.

I explained exactly when it happens: when human brainwave patterns begin. This is no different than your claim that What I said is that it doesn't matter if we don't know when

I don't have a straw man.  As I said, the "line" is your issue, not mine.  I never brought that up as it relates to my belief about when human life begins.

"I don't have to meet the standard I require you to meet because I'm  speshul... hurr... durr..." 

I've already stated, repeatedly, that I believe life begins at conception.  Google "conception" if you need more specifics about exactly what that means.  It's not that hard to determine.  Unless you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, trying to play devil's advocate, etc.

Yes, you have stated that. But you haven't explained it. Google won't help, as I am already familiar with the specifics of conception, but I'm not sure if you are, or what step in the sequence of event which occur during fertilization, specifically qualifies as "conception" in your mind.

You claim that "conception happens whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg." I am asking you point blank, what does that mean? Is it when the cortical reaction occurs? Is it when meiotic division occurs? When cell membranes fuse?

[Dos Equis]

You didn't explain it. You just vigorously button-mashed your keyboard and pressed submit.


I explained exactly when it happens: when human brainwave patterns begin. This is no different than your claim that What I said is that it doesn't matter if we don't know when


"I don't have to meet the standard I require you to meet because I'm  speshul... hurr... durr..." 


Yes, you have stated that. But you haven't explained it. Google won't help, as I am already familiar with the specifics of conception, but I'm not sure if you are, or what step in the sequence of event which occur during fertilization, specifically qualifies as "conception" in your mind.

You claim that "conception happens whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg." I am asking you point blank, what does that mean? Is it when the cortical reaction occurs? Is it when meiotic division occurs? When cell membranes fuse?

When do brainwave patterns begin in an unborn baby?  Approximately what week? 

[avxo]

When do brainwave patterns begin in an unborn baby?  Approximately what week? 

I believe that it's around the 6th week.

[Dos Equis]

I believe that it's around the 6th week.

Holy smokes.  A straight answer.     Thank you. 

By that measure, you believe human life begins at six weeks. 

[avxo]

Holy smokes.  A straight answer.     Thank you. 

By that measure, you believe human life begins at six weeks. 

No. I believe that human life begins when brainwaves with patterns that one would typically see in humans are detectable. It's my understanding that this happens around six weeks, but it's not accurate to say that I believe that life begins at six weeks.

By the way, you didn't answer my question. I'll ask you again:

Wwhat step in the sequence of event which occur during fertilization, specifically qualifies as "conception" in your mind? You claim that "conception happens whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg." When is that? Is it when the cortical reaction occurs? Is it when meiotic division occurs? When cell membranes fuse?

[Agnostic007]

I have to believe Dos Equis is purposely trying not to understand the simple concept..