It's starting

[avxo]

after all this bullshit...you're saying we weren't founded on Judeo-Christian values? Pray tell what exactly where we founded on if not that?

That's not how it works. If someone claims we were founded on Judeo-Christian values - as The Coach and Dos Equis both did - the onus is on them to prove their statements; not on me to disprove them. If you share their beliefs and think that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, then by all means you can join in.

If you'd like to know what I beieve this country was founded on, the answer is very simple: the very rational and sensible principle of individual rights; everything else flows from that as a logical consequence of and adherence to that first principle. The Federalist #10 and #51 offer ample proof of that.

[headhuntersix]

Where did those rights come from..what documents drove those beliefs....here are some quotes. We could do this all day but if you think this country was founded on anything other...espcially secular roots then you have taken your usual level of babbling pseudo-intellectualism to a much higher level then I though possible.




Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)
 
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)


that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

[headhuntersix]

I hate cutting and pasting this shit but ....I think what you fail to grasp is that the founders realized that America would not and could not work without a moral background. Our liberty only exists if all citizens adhere to a common moral framework. This they derived from many sources. Chief among them was christianity. Not sure why this is so fucking hard for you. Where they were and where we are now as a nation are not close to the same. You libs have rewrote history, undercut the Constitution at every turn and about destroyed that moral framework. A simple example is how Obama nd his band off shitbags view the Repubs and half the country more as an enemy then then people who are actively trying to kill us. You can try and post some rambling bullshit to counter point my argument but I already think your full of shit so don't waste your breath. We will never agree...

American Judeo-Christian Culture, on the other hand, has been linked to honoring Life, Liberty and Creativity from the outset; deriving its wisdom from the lights of reason, common sense, and both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament Christian Bible.  Thomas Jefferson and the great majority of our Founding Fathers explicitly put God into the national life of the United States, by putting the Creator into the Declaration of Independence.  It is important that American Liberty has something to do with God; that is something for students to know and discuss, even if they are not particularly religious.  This does not represent some form of tyranny of the religious majority or an injustice; it was in fact the wisdom of our Founding Fathers to stand in opposition to tyranny and injustice by acknowledging the source of our rights -- those rights originating from God rather than from King George III, or for that matter from the Soviet or Chinese Politburo, or a courthouse, or a legislature.

[avxo]

I think what you fail to grasp is that the founders realized that America would not and could not work without a moral background.

I agree - America would not and could not exist without a moral background. I don't agree that morality is the sole purview of Christianity and that an objective, rational morality is impossible without religion. I also think that we've clearly lost our way - or, as you put it later we "are not close to the same" nation that we started as; we're much worse.

Our liberty only exists if all citizens adhere to a common moral framework.

Absolutely.

This they derived from many sources.

Right.

Chief among them was christianity.

Morality isn't the exclusive purview of Christianity. To claim that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values when the Founders went out of their way to not setup a theocracy is absurd.

By the way, are you really sure that you want to claim that our country's moral foundations is based on a religion that says "turn the other cheek?"

Where they were and where we are now as a nation are not close to the same.

No doubt.

You libs [...]

This is the second time you're accusing me of being a liberal. You do realize it's not any more true now than it was the first time, right?

American Judeo-Christian Culture, on the other hand, has been linked to honoring Life, Liberty and Creativity from the outset; deriving its wisdom from the lights of reason, common sense, and both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament Christian Bible.

Yes, Judeo-Christian culture honors "Life" and "Liberty" and is based on reason and common sense. That's why according to Peter, Lot was a "righteous man" in offering his daughters to a crowd of rapers, before later impregnating them himself... that's honoring life and liberty!


You say that the Founding Fathers acknowledged rights as originating from God rather than from King George III in the Declaration of Independence. It's true that rights don't originate from King George III or anyone else - they're inherent in our nature as humans. And it's true that the Founders used the term "Creator". Now we can debate about whether that literally meant "the Judeo-Christian God" or was an allegory but let's just agree to disagree.

It's easy to pick and choose quote which cast one's position in a favorable light. Consider this quote from James Madison, for example: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Clearly a very devout Christian!

[Straw Man]

That's not how it works. If someone claims we were founded on Judeo-Christian values - as The Coach and Dos Equis both did - the onus is on them to prove their statements; not on me to disprove them. If you share their beliefs and think that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, then by all means you can join in.

If you'd like to know what I beieve this country was founded on, the answer is very simple: the very rational and sensible principle of individual rights; everything else flows from that as a logical consequence of and adherence to that first principle. The Federalist #10 and #51 offer ample proof of that.

come on man, you've been around here long enough

you know that Bum and Coach (and others) base their life on belief in the absence of proof and both choose to ignore any facts that contradict their beliefs (this goes for all topics, not just religion).   This the fundamental tenet of their lives. 

Your time is better spent teaching your dog calculus than expecting either of them to support their beliefs with facts

[whork]

Where did those rights come from..what documents drove those beliefs....here are some quotes. We could do this all day but if you think this country was founded on anything other...espcially secular roots then you have taken your usual level of babbling pseudo-intellectualism to a much higher level then I though possible.




Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)
 
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)


that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Founding Father Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789


 “Some very worthy persons, who have not had great advantages for information, have objected against that clause in the constitution which provides, that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. They have been afraid that this clause is unfavorable to religion. But my countrymen, the sole purpose and effect of it is to exclude persecution, and to secure to you the important right of religious
 liberty. We are almost the only people in the world, who have a full enjoyment of this important right of human nature. In our country every man has a right to worship God in that way which is most agreeable to his conscience. If he be a good and peaceable person he is liable to no penalties or incapacities on account of his religious sentiments; or in other words, he is not subject to persecution. But in other parts of the world, it has been, and still is, far different. Systems of religious error have been adopted, in times of ignorance. It has been the interest of tyrannical kings, popes, and prelates, to maintain these errors. When the clouds of ignorance began to vanish, and the people grew more enlightened, there was no other way to keep them in error, but to prohibit their altering their religious opinions by severe persecuting laws. In this way persecution became general throughout Europe.”
~Founding Father Oliver Ellsworth, Philip B Kurland and Ralph Lerner (eds.), The Founder’s Constitution, University of Chicago Press, 1987, Vol. 4, p.


 “I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government”
~Founding Father Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
~Founding Father James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

[Skeletor]

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)

From George Washington's Mount Vernon website:

http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/spurious-quotations/


"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

The quote is frequently misattributed to Washington, particularly in regards to his farewell address of 1796. The origin of the misquote is, perhaps, a mention of a similar statement in a biography of Washington first published in 1835. However, the quote that appeared in the biography has never been proven to have come from Washington. For this reference, see: http://tinyurl.com/a952ym2

[headhuntersix]

I agree - America would not and could not exist without a moral background. I don't agree that morality is the sole purview of Christianity and that an objective, rational morality is impossible without religion. I also think that we've clearly lost our way - or, as you put it later we "are not close to the same" nation that we started as; we're much worse.


Absolutely.


Right.


Morality isn't the exclusive purview of Christianity. To claim that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values when the Founders went out of their way to not setup a theocracy is absurd.

By the way, are you really sure that you want to claim that our country's moral foundations is based on a religion that says "turn the other cheek?"


No doubt.


This is the second time you're accusing me of being a liberal. You do realize it's not any more true now than it was the first time, right?

Yes, Judeo-Christian culture honors "Life" and "Liberty" and is based on reason and common sense. That's why according to Peter, Lot was a "righteous man" in offering his daughters to a crowd of rapers, before later impregnating them himself... that's honoring life and liberty!


You say that the Founding Fathers acknowledged rights as originating from God rather than from King George III in the Declaration of Independence. It's true that rights don't originate from King George III or anyone else - they're inherent in our nature as humans. And it's true that the Founders used the term "Creator". Now we can debate about whether that literally meant "the Judeo-Christian God" or was an allegory but let's just agree to disagree.

It's easy to pick and choose quote which cast one's position in a favorable light. Consider this quote from James Madison, for example: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Clearly a very devout Christian!

You can pick and choose quotes from these guys all day long.....for me...this country was founded on the barrel of a gun..we took it. Whether we get to keep it...as Franklin said...remains to be seen.

[OzmO]

come on man, you've been around here long enough

you know that Bum and Coach (and others) base their life on belief in the absence of proof and both choose to ignore any facts that contradict their beliefs (this goes for all topics, not just religion).   This the fundamental tenet of their lives. 

Your time is better spent teaching your dog calculus than expecting either of them to support their beliefs with facts

Dodge, deflect, red herring.  that's how it often works.  Not all the time, but too often from some.

[Straw Man]

From George Washington's Mount Vernon website:

http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/spurious-quotations/


"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

The quote is frequently misattributed to Washington, particularly in regards to his farewell address of 1796. The origin of the misquote is, perhaps, a mention of a similar statement in a biography of Washington first published in 1835. However, the quote that appeared in the biography has never been proven to have come from Washington. For this reference, see: http://tinyurl.com/a952ym2

yeah and the original statement (unverified quote) doesn't even mention "nation" "bible" or "God"

I have a a fundie friend who trotted out this quote and I pointed out to him that Washington never said it (I gave him the same link you provided)

His response was that he didn't care if it was authentic or not.  He liked it and was going to believe it anyway

That's the mindset we're dealing with here

[Coach is Back!]

Let the lib spin begin....


http://faithofourfathers.net

[240 is Back]

Let the lib spin begin....


http://faithofourfathers.net

WTF?  Yes, many of the founding fathers were religious men.  Does ANY post here say otherwise?

Again, you're moving it to a similar argument because the first one didn't go all that well.

I guess you want to create a false connection that because they were religious, they wanted the document they were creating to have a religious requirement?  Hmmm

[Dos Equis]

You specifically cited them in answer to the question: "What Judeo-Christian values was this country founded on?" If they're not exclusively Judeo-Christian, then it's meaningless to cite them in answer to the question.


My point was that unless you can point to some uniquely Judeo-Christian value, you can't claim that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.


You cited those values as "Judeo-Christian values" that were foundational. Yet, those values aren't exclusively Judeo-Christian. It's like someone asked you: "why are German cars highly-regarded?" and you answered with "they have four wheels." Then when you're challenged with "other cars have four wheels too" you argue that you didn't claim that only German cars have four wheels... you're trying to divert attention from the simple fact your answer was not an answer at all.

Again, can you cite some uniquely Judeo-Christian values that were instrumental and are foundational to this country, or can you prove that the Judeo-Christian values you cited were both foundational and adopted because of their Judeo-Christian heritage?

If you can't, then your answer simply fails.


I do seem to struggle to communicate with people who can't have a rational conversation.


I'm saying that it's bunk to claim that this country was "founded" on "Judeo-Christian" values and, more specifically, on the Judeo-Christian values you specifically cited.

Let's recap: I challeged Joe to the Judeo-Christian values that this country was founded on. You then moseyed on over and decided to take up that mantle, and you cited some Judeo-Christian values that this country was founded on, but those values aren't uniquely Judeo-Christian and you provided no evidence that (a) the founders specifically had the Judeo-Christian values in mind or (b)  that those values are even foundational.

Show us, how are the specific values you cited - support for the traditional family, prohibitions on stealing, lying, and murder and a strong work ethic - foundational values of this country. Surely if they are, you'll see some reference to them in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or maybe the Federalist Papers. Come on... we're waiting!


I'm sure that those who were highly religious were influenced. So what? That doesn't prove that Judeo-Christian values are "foundational." Again, prove that those values you cited were foundational.

A more accurate recap is you asked the following question:

What Judeo-Christian values was this country founded on?

I responded with a few:

Support for the traditional family, prohibitions on stealing, lying, and murder, strong worth ethic, etc. 

You then claimed those are not exclusive to Judeo-Christian values, which was not in any way a part of your original question.  Total manufactured point by you. 

It's completely illogical to say the values embraced by the Founders had to be exclusive to one author, source, etc., and that that source is "meaningless" if other sources contain the same set of values.

What's more illogical is you haven't identified any viable alternative source. 

If you look at our history, it's obvious the earliest Americans were deeply religious.  Their religion was Christianity.  That's why, despite fleeing religious persecution in Europe, they set up the same intolerant system in early America before the Constitution.  That's why things like adultery, sodomy, Blue Laws, etc. were on the books.  Those were the "bad" parts of Judeo-Christian values they put into our system.  You cannot reasonably excise the "good" parts (support for the traditional family, hard work, prohibitions on stealing, lying, etc.). 

You really have to stick your head in the sand to deny the spiritual foundations of early Americans. 

[Dos Equis]

http://www.youngcons.com/female-muslim-judge-takes-oath-while-using-koran-instead-of-bible/

Carolyn Walker-Diallo, Muslim judge, sworn in on Koran in Brooklyn
BY LEONARD GREENE  NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Tuesday, December 15, 2015

Carolyn Walker-Diallo is sworn in as judge in Brooklyn on a Koran. Photos of the ceremony inspired hateful Facebook comments.

A routine municipal ceremony has become seeped in controversy after a Brooklyn Civil Court judge was sworn in using a Koran.

Carolyn Walker-Diallo, who was elected last month in Brooklyn’s 7th Municipal District, took her oath of office Thursday using the holy book of Islam as a testament to her Muslim faith.

The swearing-in session went off without a hitch, but after attendees posted video of the ceremony to social media, the backlash became so severe that some of Walker-Diallo’s supporters became concerned for her safety.

“Sickening,” one Facebook user posted in response to the video. “Is this America or the Middle East.”

“Another piece of s--- Muslim,” another user wrote, “trying to take over this country.”

Walker-Diallo did not return calls for comment.

On her campaign page, she makes reference to her faith.

“All is praise (sic) is indeed due to the Most High!” she said in a post thanking her supporters. “I am humbled that my community has entrusted me with the immense responsibility of ensuring that EVERYONE has notice and a FAIR opportunity to be heard in the halls of justice.”

Since the dawn of the nation, elected officials have been taking oaths of office. Under the U.S. Constitution, a candidate for office must “swear or affirm” an oath.

“Affirming” was for the benefit of people who have a religious objection to invoking God in an oath.

There is no requirement that an officeholder swear on a specific religious text, or any text at all.

Walker-Diallo is not the first Muslim judge to serve in the state.

In 2013, Sheila Abdus-Salaam became the first black woman and first Muslim to sit on the Court of Appeals, the state’s highest judicial body.

Walker-Diallo is also not the first officeholder to be sworn in on the Koran: In 2006, Minnesota Rep. U.S. Keith Ellison did so.

Backlash over Walker-Diallo’s oath of office comes amid Donald Trump’s proposal to close America’s doors to Muslim immigrants in the wake of the attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif., carried out by jihadi terrorists.

The debate over Trump’s proposal has stirred up anti-Muslim sentiment across the country.

“It’s really horrific what’s happening,” said Sadyia Khalique, director of operations for the New York chapter of the Council on American–Islamic Relations. “This is a proud moment for her, and to have this much criticism is just really sad. In our society, there is so much hate.”

Khalique pointed out that some of the recent backlash has been aimed at Muslim women.

Last month, two Muslim women, wearing Islamic head scarfs were accosted in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, by a man as one of them pushed a stroller with a baby.

The man threatened to “blow up your temple,” and spit on the women before he walked off.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/carolyn-walker-diallo-muslim-judge-sworn-koran-article-1.2467218

[TuHolmes]

Is she wearing a Hijab? The article coach links says she's wearing a hijab.

Doesn't look like one.

[240 is Back]

Republican sweetheart Chris Christie defended a Muslim judge in 2014

[whork]

Carolyn Walker-Diallo, Muslim judge, sworn in on Koran in Brooklyn
BY LEONARD GREENE  NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Tuesday, December 15, 2015

Carolyn Walker-Diallo is sworn in as judge in Brooklyn on a Koran. Photos of the ceremony inspired hateful Facebook comments.

A routine municipal ceremony has become seeped in controversy after a Brooklyn Civil Court judge was sworn in using a Koran.

Carolyn Walker-Diallo, who was elected last month in Brooklyn’s 7th Municipal District, took her oath of office Thursday using the holy book of Islam as a testament to her Muslim faith.

The swearing-in session went off without a hitch, but after attendees posted video of the ceremony to social media, the backlash became so severe that some of Walker-Diallo’s supporters became concerned for her safety.

“Sickening,” one Facebook user posted in response to the video. “Is this America or the Middle East.”

“Another piece of s--- Muslim,” another user wrote, “trying to take over this country.”

Walker-Diallo did not return calls for comment.

On her campaign page, she makes reference to her faith.

“All is praise (sic) is indeed due to the Most High!” she said in a post thanking her supporters. “I am humbled that my community has entrusted me with the immense responsibility of ensuring that EVERYONE has notice and a FAIR opportunity to be heard in the halls of justice.”

Since the dawn of the nation, elected officials have been taking oaths of office. Under the U.S. Constitution, a candidate for office must “swear or affirm” an oath.

“Affirming” was for the benefit of people who have a religious objection to invoking God in an oath.

There is no requirement that an officeholder swear on a specific religious text, or any text at all.

Walker-Diallo is not the first Muslim judge to serve in the state.

In 2013, Sheila Abdus-Salaam became the first black woman and first Muslim to sit on the Court of Appeals, the state’s highest judicial body.

Walker-Diallo is also not the first officeholder to be sworn in on the Koran: In 2006, Minnesota Rep. U.S. Keith Ellison did so.

Backlash over Walker-Diallo’s oath of office comes amid Donald Trump’s proposal to close America’s doors to Muslim immigrants in the wake of the attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif., carried out by jihadi terrorists.

The debate over Trump’s proposal has stirred up anti-Muslim sentiment across the country.

“It’s really horrific what’s happening,” said Sadyia Khalique, director of operations for the New York chapter of the Council on American–Islamic Relations. “This is a proud moment for her, and to have this much criticism is just really sad. In our society, there is so much hate.”

Khalique pointed out that some of the recent backlash has been aimed at Muslim women.

Last month, two Muslim women, wearing Islamic head scarfs were accosted in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, by a man as one of them pushed a stroller with a baby.

The man threatened to “blow up your temple,” and spit on the women before he walked off.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/carolyn-walker-diallo-muslim-judge-sworn-koran-article-1.2467218

WTF