Shawn Ray is better than Dexter Jackson

[BILL ANVIL]

Dexter beats Shawn today.

Dexter beats Flex today.

Dexter beats Jay today.

Dexter beats Ronnie today.

Dexter beats Dorian today.

But he doesn't look better than any of them.

[Desolate]

No.  Ray looked great from the front put looked pedestrian when compared with Yates back.  Not even close, look at the pics from that contest.  Better yet, watch the video.

Bullshit.

Ray's back and hamstrings never looked better.

Always had good calves.

Yates had torn bicep, torn quad, distended stomach and horrible blanched tan.

I have the DVD and the ESPN coverage. They used to do a one hour special every year back in the day. I have several.

[Desolate]

If anything, Levrone should have won in 1994

No.

Levrone looked better at the night show than prejudging.

And Ray out posed him. Ray won the posing round.

But I would have no objection if Kevin finished second with Yates in third.

[Tbomzisback!]

shawn looks better in the back double bi pic,

Strongly disagree. Dexter's back is much more aesthetic and symmetrical.

[Bevo]

Strongly disagree. Dexter's back is much more aesthetic and symmetrical.

Shawn also has a better nose and face than dexter

All homo

[Humble Narcissist]

Bullshit.

Ray's back and hamstrings never looked better.

Always had good calves.

Yates had torn bicep, torn quad, distended stomach and horrible blanched tan.

I have the DVD and the ESPN coverage. They used to do a one hour special every year back in the day. I have several.

Are you looking at the same pics I am?  There is no way Ray beats Yates in those photos.  The videos show an even bigger disparity.  Ray was never close to beating Yates just like Labrada was never close to beating Haney.

[Desolate]

Labrada beat Haney in 89 and 90.

Labrada won the prejudging in Chicago in 1990, yet somehow lost the title.

It is like when Cutler won the prejudging in 2001 and yet lost the title to Coleman.

Judges said Coleman won the posedown when all he did was remove posing trucks to reveal red, white and blue posing trunks and then left the stage to pose in the crowd where the judges couldn't even see him.

As to Ray and Yates, Dorian's back is superior but you don't win a contest because of one bodypart.

All around, Ray was the best bodybuilder on the stage that night.

Pose for pose and part for part, he was the better bodybuilder.

Dorian's best was 1993 in Atlanta at 256.

It was all downhill after that. He did bounce back from 94 to win in 95 though. Deservedly so.

Lost to Nasser in 97.

Dorian was great, but he should have only three Sandows.

[Humble Narcissist]

Labrada beat Haney in 89 and 90.

Labrada won the prejudging in Chicago in 1990, yet somehow lost the title.

It is like when Cutler won the prejudging in 2001 and yet lost the title to Coleman.

Judges said Coleman won the posedown when all he did was remove posing trucks to reveal red, white and blue posing trunks and then left the stage to pose in the crowd where the judges couldn't even see him.

As to Ray and Yates, Dorian's back is superior but you don't win a contest because of one bodypart.

All around, Ray was the best bodybuilder on the stage that night.

Pose for pose and part for part, he was the better bodybuilder.

Dorian's best was 1993 in Atlanta at 256.

It was all downhill after that. He did bounce back from 94 to win in 95 though. Deservedly so.

Lost to Nasser in 97.

Dorian was great, but he should have only three Sandows.

I disagree with everything you said there.

[Desolate]

But I didn't lie about Labrada winning both rounds of the prejudging in 1990 and Cutler doing the same thing in 2001.

Those are statements of fact that can be looked up.

Just as it is with the subjectiveness of the sport, I think we have to agree to disagree.

[illuminati]

But I didn't lie about Labrada winning both rounds of the prejudging in 1990 and Cutler doing the same thing in 2001.

Those are statements of fact that can be looked up.

Just as it is with the subjectiveness of the sport, I think we have to agree to disagree.

On those 2 points you are correct & I agree it’s kinda odd that both
Went on to finish in 2nd place - Both should’ve Won & Deservedly So.

It makes no sense to go through the thorough judging rounds
Only to lose in a posedown.

[Bevo]

On those 2 points you are correct & I agree it’s kinda odd that both
Went on to finish in 2nd place - Both should’ve Won & Deservedly So.

It makes no sense to go through the thorough judging rounds
Only to lose in a posedown.

Labrada should have one

Ray should have one

Jay should have 2001

Victor should have 2007

Kai should have a few

[Humble Narcissist]

Labrada should have one

Ray should have one

Jay should have 2001

Victor should have 2007

Kai should have a few

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.  If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport.  Notice no one says such and such should have beaten Usain Bolt for the gold all those years he won them.

[illuminati]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.  If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport.  Notice no one says such and such should have beaten Usain Bolt for the gold all those years he won them.

True - Very Good Point.

[honest]

I disagree with everything you said there.

So do I, Dorian never looked better or even close to 93 again but he was still better than everyone else, I attended a few of those olympias and it was daylight photos never did him justice, he was conditioned from head to toe, all guys including shawn ray looked noticeably less conditioned when hear him, but shawn ray was the ext best conditioned athlete for sure, Nasser nothing from the rear, leverone never found his 92 conditioning when he got heavier if he did and didn't tear the pec, he could have pushed Yates as he was complete but he didn't and was soft through the back where yates was his most detailed.
I think Dexter has more of an argument than anyone else over the years, maybe Labrador once, but again when he stood next to haney it wasn't close.

[Desolate]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.  If you want to win objectively don't compete in a subjective sport.

But the problem is the judging and the individual judges not being held accountable.

In the past, people like Shawn, Milos and Peter McGough have suggested ways to improve the judging.

1. Bring out each competitor first to do the individual mandatory poses.

Why?

So that young unknowns don't get lost in the shuffle and are denied callouts in favor of known names and not necessarily superior physiques.

Move the symmetry/comparisons to the second round.

2. Partitions should be used to separate the individual judges.

NO talking to each other. No looking at each other's sheets.

3. Have someone come down and collect the score sheets. Do not pass them down from judge to judge.

Easy enough to do. In fact, I would have someone there from the IFBB just watching the judges while they evaluate the contestants.

Who watches the Watchmen?

4. Different judges should be used for the four judging rounds: individual mandatories, symmetry, individual pose and posedown.

If not this, then at least a different judging panel for the night show.

5. Judges scorecards should be made available after the contests. They should be printed in the magazines and even be available online so that we know who thought what.

It's no different than evaluating an umpire or referee. A no-brainer.

[AbrahamG]

Who's better?  Dorian or Ronnie?

[Desolate]

Tough call.

I never like them when they get too heavy.

Dorian was at his best in 1992 in Norway and 1993 in Atlanta.

Atlanta 1
Norway 2

Ronnie was at his best in 1998 in New York and 1999 in Las Vegas.

1999 Las Vegas
1998 New York

He was bigger in 1999, but he was not as dry and defined.

Delts were improved and calves were improved. And he got the gyno removed from his nipple.

To me, he goes downhill after that year. Well, maybe after 2000.

So you would have to take 1993 Dorian vs. 1999 Ronnie and go from there.

It would come down to conditioning and presentation of physique. Who peaked better on that day... and night.

[illuminati]

But the problem is the judging and the individual judges not being held accountable.

In the past, people like Shawn, Milos and Peter McGough have suggested ways to improve the judging.

1. Bring out each competitor first to do the individual mandatory poses.

Why?

So that young unknowns don't get lost in the shuffle and are denied callouts in favor of known names and not necessarily superior physiques.

1, Good Idea - This should be implemented

Move the symmetry/comparisons to the second round.

2. Partitions should be used to separate the individual judges.

NO talking to each other. No looking at each other's sheets.

3. Have someone come down and collect the score sheets. Do not pass them down from judge to judge.

2, Again Agree.

Easy enough to do. In fact, I would have someone there from the IFBB just watching the judges while they evaluate the contestants.

Who watches the Watchmen?

4. Different judges should be used for the four judging rounds: individual mandatories, symmetry, individual pose and posedown.

If not this, then at least a different judging panel for the night show.

3, Another great idea - Only there aren’t enough judges.
Everyone wants to judge the shows just not want to be a judge.

5. Judges scorecards should be made available after the contests. They should be printed in the magazines and even be available online so that we know who thought what.

4, At the NABBA shows I judge they are - I also make notes on the bodybuilders physiques where
Possible / time permitting.

It's no different than evaluating an umpire or referee. A no-brainer.

As I’ve indicated you’ve got some great points
The 2 constraints are The Time it will add / take as there are so many different
Classes now.
And The Number of Judges needed - So Few actually want to step up to be a judge
And be accountable- They just want to shout from the sidelines.

[Humble Narcissist]

So do I, Dorian never looked better or even close to 93 again but he was still better than everyone else, I attended a few of those olympias and it was daylight photos never did him justice, he was conditioned from head to toe, all guys including shawn ray looked noticeably less conditioned when hear him, but shawn ray was the ext best conditioned athlete for sure, Nasser nothing from the rear, leverone never found his 92 conditioning when he got heavier if he did and didn't tear the pec, he could have pushed Yates as he was complete but he didn't and was soft through the back where yates was his most detailed.
I think Dexter has more of an argument than anyone else over the years, maybe Labrador once, but again when he stood next to haney it wasn't close.

Still photos do not do justice to Yates or Haney.  When people were there live (like you) or watching a video of the event it is clear it was not close.  The judging was screwed up by having competitors win in prejudging and posing and then lose the contest but that is the IFBB, a horribly run organization.

[Wiggs]

Dex >

Dex - lat spread
Shawn - back double
Dexter outweighed Shawn by 25lbs at most at both their peaks. But that's not a problem. Shawn routinely beat people larger with his overall appearance, tie ins, separation, completeness, posing and general presentation.