it used to be ken shamrock.

[thebrink]

Ken did an interview once where he stated that the only man he feared was Steve Blackman (fellow WWE wrestler).  He said Steve would have mopped the floor with most of the guys competing in MMA back then.  In his book, Bob Holly writes that when WWE hosted the Brawl For It All most of the wrestlers competing in it were so scared of Blackman that they refused to enter into a legitimate fight against Blackman, so WWE had Blackman suffer an "injury" after winning his first fight and withdrawing.

Because all the actual tough guys in wrestling were in WCW

[Earl1972]

Shammy VS Rich Franklin

Shamrock supposedly dropped to go for an ankle lock then Franklin hit him with a glancing blow on the way down, and Ken just lay there not defending himself until the ref stoppage, at which point he got up and seemed to be the picture of health.

IIRC, Shamrock was paid a flat fee of $250,000 to show, no win bonus. Couple that with the fact that the UFC needed to put Franklin over for the UFC fans as they were grooming him to be the next big thing...

I am sure Ken got an extra Locker-room bonus from Dana since they wanted Rich to be the next big thing. Franklin didn't know Ken was taking a dive though.

Ken thought the paychecks would keep coming if he kept putting over the posterboys, which is why he was shocked when Zuffa cut him off the roster.

Ken was a companyman, Frank was not.

i don't know, i think ken was just that bad of a fighter at that point

it's not like he actually would've beaten franklin whether it was a real fight or not

E

[oldgolds]

Shamrock was coaching wrestling in the San Diego area about 20 years ago and  was a beefy 180 lbs. What a transformation.

[IroNat]

Shamrock was coaching wrestling in the San Diego area about 20 years ago and  was a beefy 180 lbs. What a transformation.

Ken Shamrock?

High school wrestling of pro wrestling?

He was jacked in the UFC in '93.

[pellius]

Shamrock was coaching wrestling in the San Diego area about 20 years ago and  was a beefy 180 lbs. What a transformation.

Nonsense. Ken was all over the place and the world trying to make a living competing in wrestling and MMA style tournaments. He along with Funaki and Suzuki founded Pancrase, the closest thing at the time to legit no holds barred fighting (not underground stuff).

You have to judge a person by their era and during that time there wasn't really many good legit competitions to test a person's fighting ability with few restricitons until the UFC came along. Ken was a legit bad ass and Rorion Gracie did not want him in the original UFC. Rorion knew what real fighting was like coming from Brasil where they had Vale Tudo tournaments which were real no rules bare fisted fighting. Tradional martial arts at that time was bullshit with their "Katas" and choreographed techniques and fake "Kumite" tournaments. Rorion knew that Shamrock did close to real fighting and was very familiar with the ground game whereas the others in the original UFC were clueless and would be no match for the scrawny Royce. Shamrock, unlike Royce, was a legit world class athlete. From a physical and athletic standpoint, Ken was vastly superior to Royce and because he knew how to grapple and trade real kicks and
strikes this posed a huge threat to Royce. Fortunately, at that time, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was just so vastly superior to any other form of ground grappling and that proved to be enough to defeat Ken Shamrock. At that time there was nothing special about Royce and anyone in their family would have done just as well and probably better. In fact, anybody fighting in the Vale Tudo tournaments at the time in Brasil would have crushed anybody at the original UFC, includng Royce. Royce was not a true Black Belt at the time and was just promoted by his brother Rorion to help with his teaching. I mean, Royce was only 17 years old when Rorion brought him to America. I believe he was still a Blue Belt while in Brasil. Maybe Purple belt at the most. And he never went through the tournament and Vale Tudo grinder that the rest of his brothers had to go through. It didn't matter much at that time because a high level Blue belt in BJJ was more than enough to make quick work of the average traditional martial artist at that time. Royce real BJJ level was easily exposed when Rorion foolishly agreed to a traditional BJJ match for Royce with a legit Black Belt Wallid Ismail, at the Mundials "Super Fight" where Wallid easily choked Royce out unconscious within minutes.

[Humble Narcissist]

Nonsense. Ken was all over the place and the world trying to make a living competing in wrestling and MMA style tournaments. He along with Funaki and Suzuki founded Pancrase, the closest thing at the time to legit no holds barred fighting (not underground stuff).

You have to judge a person by their era and during that time there wasn't really many good legit competitions to test a person's fighting ability with few restricitons until the UFC came along. Ken was a legit bad ass and Rorion Gracie did not want him in the original UFC. Rorion knew what real fighting was like coming from Brasil where they had Vale Tudo tournaments which were real no rules bare fisted fighting. Tradional martial arts at that time was bullshit with their "Katas" and choreographed techniques and fake "Kumite" tournaments. Rorion knew that Shamrock did close to real fighting and was very familiar with the ground game whereas the others in the original UFC were clueless and would be no match for the scrawny Royce. Shamrock, unlike Royce, was a legit world class athlete. From a physical and athletic standpoint, Ken was vastly superior to Royce and because he knew how to grapple and trade real kicks and
strikes this posed a huge threat to Royce. Fortunately, at that time, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was just so vastly superior to any other form of ground grappling and that proved to be enough to defeat Ken Shamrock. At that time there was nothing special about Royce and anyone in their family would have done just as well and probably better. In fact, anybody fighting in the Vale Tudo tournaments at the time in Brasil would have crushed anybody at the original UFC, includng Royce. Royce was not a true Black Belt at the time and was just promoted by his brother Rorion to help with his teaching. I mean, Royce was only 17 years old when Rorion brought him to America. I believe he was still a Blue Belt while in Brasil. Maybe Purple belt at the most. And he never went through the tournament and Vale Tudo grinder that the rest of his brothers had to go through. It didn't matter much at that time because a high level Blue belt in BJJ was more than enough to make quick work of the average traditional martial artist at that time. Royce real BJJ level was easily exposed when Rorion foolishly agreed to a traditional BJJ match for Royce with a legit Black Belt Wallid Ismail, at the Mundials "Super Fight" where Wallid easily choked Royce out unconscious within minutes.

Rickson was a much better fighter but he opened his own school across town and Rorion didn't want him to promote his school over Rorion's school so he used Royce instead.  Rickson had a much better physique as well and was a better striker than Royce which isn't saying much.

[pellius]

Rickson was a much better fighter but he opened his own school across town and Rorion didn't want him to promote his school over Rorion's school so he used Royce instead.  Rickson had a much better physique as well and was a better striker than Royce which isn't saying much.

When Rickson started his own school I moved along with him even though I lived in Torrance where the Gracie school was located. Choosing Royce had nothing to do with promoting or not promoting Rickson's school. Royce was Rorion's protege and due to the age difference Rorion was more of a father figure to Royce. Plus it was to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in general and having such a weak scrawny guy like Royce submit everybody would prove the superiority of the style.

[Humble Narcissist]

When Rickson started his own school I moved along with him even though I lived in Torrance where the Gracie school was located. Choosing Royce had nothing to do with promoting or not promoting Rickson's school. Royce was Rorion's protege and due to the age difference Rorion was more of a father figure to Royce. Plus it was to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in general and having such a weak scrawny guy like Royce submit everybody would prove the superiority of the style.

I got that story from Joe Rogan on his podcast just a few weeks ago.

[pellius]

I got that story from Joe Rogan on his podcast just a few weeks ago.

Rorion was a very domineering personality over his brothers. He was the oldest and considered himself the boss. He was the one who took the trip by himself to American and single-handedly promoted Gracies Jiu-Jitsu. Rorion revered his father Helio and what Helio did with Jiu-Jitsu in Brasil Rorion wanted to do in America and when you conquer America you then conquer the world, which he did. So it was Rorion that scraped and clawed his way trying to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Going to seminars and challenging and exposing traditional martial artist with all their nonsense board breaking and choreograph techniques. Trying to break into Hollywood and get connections training out of his garage. He paved the way for everybody else. So he seemed to look at his brothers as employees that should be grateful that he laid the ground work and brought his brothers and cousins (Machados) to America where they had much better lives and opportunities. Problem was that Rickson, the recognized champion of the family, didn't like being bossed around and having everything, including how much he got paid, determined by Rorion. So there was a falling out, as there was with other of the Gracie family. Rickson wasn't allowed, under threat of a law suit, to use the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" when he left and started his own school at an old warehouse on Pico Blvd. Rorion in those days was pretty ruthless and caused a lot of bitterness within the family. Rorion was driven and I think a lot had to do with seeking approval and admiration from his father, Helio. He was the oldest son and felt it was on him to continue with the legacy. This also meant being the best fighter. This was crushed by the son of Carlos Gracie, the true founder of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the older brother of Helio.  This son, Rolls, was the illegitimate son of Carlos and whom his wife rejected. Helio adopted him and he was about the same age as Rorion. Much to Helio's disappointment, Rolls was the one that proved to be the talented one and as they grew up it was clear he was the most talented Gracie ever. This caused a lot of personal issues with Rorion as he was suppose to be the one. This is one of the reasons, maybe the only reason, that Rorion left Brasil. Just to get away from all the pressure and drama and make his mark in another way and not disappoint his father. And he succeeded. He's slowly being forgotten with the new generation but he was the one that changed martial arts throughout the world. If it wasn't for him there would have been no UFC and unarmed combat would have never reached the level that it has today. An amateur  competitive gym rat at a reputable MMA gym today would tool everyone at the original UFC including Royce.

Fortunately, all the bitterness within the family is water under the bridge and their legacy in history is secure.

[Kwon]

[oldgolds]

Ken Shamrock?

High school wrestling of pro wrestling?

He was jacked in the UFC in '93.

He was coaching kids in the San Diego area around 20 years ago. I worked with  a  guy who was also coaching  and he said Shamrock was around 180.
Obviously a "natural' Ken Shamrock.

[MAXX]

at one point he really was "the most dangerous man in the world". Imagine being able to say that.

so it was pretty sad there was no money in it when he was the best fighter in the world in early 90's. And he has probably not much to show for it today because he has to try make money in wwe type wrestling now.

[pellius]

at one point he really was "the most dangerous man in the world". Imagine being able to say that.

so it was pretty sad there was no money in it when he was the best fighter in the world in early 90's. And he has probably not much to show for it today because he has to try make money in wwe type wrestling now.

Yeah, too bad those original UFC fighters who went bare fisted, no weigh limits, getting bruised and battered and really busted up no matter if they won of lost never really made any money out of the sport. As much shit Dana White gets it was he that legitimized the sport and allowed fighters to make a good living.

[escrima]

The Gracies think they invented everything.