Did Democrats Actually Cave In?

[Colossus_500]

I'm not so sure that I would use the word intimidated when it comes to the Democratic party.   

by Patrick J. Buchanan
Why Congress Caved to Bush
May 25, 2007 02:00 PM EST

 

The antiwar Democrats are crying betrayal -- and justifiably so.

For a Democratic Congress is now voting to fully fund the war in Iraq, as demanded by President Bush, and without any timetable for a U.S. troop withdrawal. Bush got his $100 billion, then magnanimously agreed to let Democrats keep the $20 billion in pork they stuffed into the bill -- to soothe the pain of their sellout of the party base.

Remarkable. If the Republican rout of 2006 said anything, it was that America had lost faith in the Bush-Rumsfeld conduct of the war and wanted Democrats to lead the country out.

Yet, today, there are more U.S. troops in Iraq than when the Democrats won. More are on the way. And with the surge and retention of troops in Iraq beyond normal tours, there should be a record number of U.S. troops in country by year's end.

Why did the Democrats capitulate?

Because they lack the courage of their convictions. Because they fear the consequences if they put their antiwar beliefs into practice. Because they are afraid if they defund the war and force President Bush to withdraw U.S. troops, the calamity he predicts will come to pass and they will be held accountable for losing Iraq and the strategic disaster that might well ensue.

Democrats are an intimidated party. The reasons are historical. They were shredded by Nixon and Joe McCarthy for FDR's surrenders to Stalin at Tehran and Yalta, for losing China to Mao's hordes, for the "no-win war" in Korea, for being "soft on communism."

The best and the brightest -- JFK's New Frontiersmen -- were held responsible for plunging us into Vietnam and proving incapable of winning the war. A Democratic Congress cut off aid to Saigon in 1975, ceding Southeast Asia to Hanoi and bringing on the genocide of Pol Pot.

Democrats know they are distrusted on national security. They fear that if they defund this war and bring on a Saigon ending in the Green Zone, it will be a generation before they are trusted with national power. And power is what the party is all about.

Yet, not only does the situation in Iraq appear increasingly grim, with rising U.S. and Iraqi casualties, other shoes are about to drop that will reverberate throughout the region.

Support for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, with his war in Lebanon a debacle and his leadership denounced by a commission he appointed, is in single digits. Waiting in the wings is Likud super-hawk "Bibi" Netanyahu, the most popular politician in Israel, who compares today to Munich 1938 and equates Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with Hitler.

If and when Bibi comes to power, he will use every stratagem to provoke us into attacking "Hitler."

Also drumming for war on Iran are the floundering neocons and the Israeli lobby. Under orders from the lobby, Nancy Pelosi stripped from a House bill a stipulation that Bush must come to Congress for authorization before launching an attack on Iran.

With Democratic contenders reciting the mantra, "All options are on the table," and Iran defying U.N. sanctions, pursuing nuclear enrichment and detaining U.S. citizens, Bush has a blank check to launch a third war.

Lebanon is ablaze. Gaza is ablaze. The Afghan war is not going well. The Taliban have a privileged sanctuary. The NATO allies grow weary.

In Pakistan, the most dangerous country on earth -- one bullet away from an Islamic republic with atom bombs -- our erstwhile ally, President Musharraf, is caught in a political crisis over his ouster of the chief justice.

Presidents Musharraf in Islamabad, Kharzi in Kabul and Siniora in Beirut, and Prime Minister Maliki in Baghdad, sit on shaky thrones. No one knows what follows their fall. But it is hard to see how it would not be crippling for America's position.

With such volatility in this crucial region of the world, with such uncertainty, it is easy to see why Democrats prefer to be the "dummy" at the bridge table and let Bush play the hand.

The congressional Democrats are cynical, but they are not stupid. If the surge works and U.S. troops are being withdrawn by fall 2008, they do not want it said of them that they "cut and ran" when the going got tough, that they played Chamberlain to Bush's Churchill.

And if the war is going badly in 2008, they know that the American people, in repudiating the party of Bush and Cheney, have no other choice than the party of Hillary and Pelosi and Harry Reid.

That is why congressional Democrats are surely saying privately of the angry antiwar left what has often been said by the Beltway Republican elite of the right: "Don't worry about them. They have nowhere else to go

And that is why the antiwar left was thrown under the bus.

COPYRIGHT 2007 CREATORS SYNDICATE INC.

[240 is Back]

This war now has the REPUBLICAN stamp on it.


yes, the dems allowed it to happen in 2002.

But when people think about voting in 08, they're going to remember two things:

Dems tried to stop the war, and failed.
Bush vetoed them and got to keep his war.

Now, seeing as Bush vetoed the will of 70% of America last month, I'm guessing you have a lot of people who are going to vote anti-war.... hello, Edwards.

[Colossus_500]

This war now has the REPUBLICAN stamp on it.


yes, the dems allowed it to happen in 2002.

But when people think about voting in 08, they're going to remember two things:

Dems tried to stop the war, and failed.
Bush vetoed them and got to keep his war.

Now, seeing as Bush vetoed the will of 70% of America last month, I'm guessing you have a lot of people who are going to vote anti-war.... hello, Edwards.

Would you agree that the 70% is greatly due to the interpretation/translation of the war from the media? 

[OzmO]

Would you agree that the 70% is greatly due to the interpretation/translation of the war from the media? 

I don;t.  It's very hard to spin these facts:   3400 DEAD.  400 Billion in debt.   No end in sight.

BUSH has screwed up.  That much is obvious and needs no spin.

[Colossus_500]

I don;t.  It's very hard to spin these facts:   3400 DEAD.  400 Billion in debt.   No end in sight.

BUSH has screwed up.  That much is obvious and needs no spin.

I guess it's something that only time can tell.

[OzmO]

I guess it's something that only time can tell.

Yeah, maybe , but it's been 4 years.  4 years since we disposed of a "monster" and "freed" these helpless repressed people.

At some point, we are seeing as no-win situation, one where we can sit here and continually sink money and the lives of our young into it for suspect idealistic reasons.   That's insane.

[240 is Back]

Would you agree that the 70% is greatly due to the interpretation/translation of the war from the media? 

No.

There was an initial 70% SUPPORT.

As facts came out to the world, perception changed. Media outlets changed to meet the desires of viewers.

Look at FOX viewers.  The network hasn't changed their stance on the war one bit - but MANY of their viewers have!

[Colossus_500]

Yeah, maybe , but it's been 4 years.  4 years since we disposed of a "monster" and "freed" these helpless repressed people.

At some point, we are seeing as no-win situation, one where we can sit here and continually sink money and the lives of our young into it for suspect idealistic reasons.   That's insane.

Interesting that you say that.  I was at my neighbor's cookout, and I talked to a guy who has been over to Iraq a couple of times and is about to go again (branch of the navy...works with Navy Seals).  He said he was shocked at how the story is being spun in the media.  He quoted the number of deaths yearly due to DUI with respect to how many American lives have been lost.  He said it's a strange analogy, but it puts things into perspective in his opinion.  But he was adamant that we are there for good reason.  It gave me great perspective from someone who's actually been there vs. what I'm being told via the media.

[OzmO]

Interesting that you say that.  I was at my neighbor's cookout, and I talked to a guy who has been over to Iraq a couple of times and is about to go again (branch of the navy...works with Navy Seals).  He said he was shocked at how the story is being spun in the media.  He quoted the number of deaths yearly due to DUI with respect to how many American lives have been lost.  He said it's a strange analogy, but it puts things into perspective in his opinion.  But he was adamant that we are there for good reason.  It gave me great perspective from someone who's actually been there vs. what I'm being told via the media.

Here's some another comparisons:

-  More people die from auto accidents 8 times more every year than 9/11 and yet we don't insists on making cars safer
-  More die from homicides than 9/11 yet we don't sink 400 billion into better law enforcement
-  What about 2nd hand smoke?
-  What about poor health care?


Remember, one think in regards to people's perspective:  They are always tainted by their experiences.  I agree, being there now is important because if we leave all those Iraqis that supported us will be in danger.  But at some point i wonder if that's worth the lives of my brothers.

I would also tell you that the "news" we receive in the US is very different from what the rest of the world sees........my point being is that they don't hate us because they hate" freedom.

[Colossus_500]

Here's some another comparisons:

-  More people die from auto accidents 8 times more every year than 9/11 and yet we don't insists on making cars safer
-  More die from homicides than 9/11 yet we don't sink 400 billion into better law enforcement
-  What about 2nd hand smoke?
-  What about poor health care?


Remember, one think in regards to people's perspective:  They are always tainted by their experiences.  I agree, being there now is important because if we leave all those Iraqis that supported us will be in danger.  But at some point i wonder if that's worth the lives of my brothers.

So, we should take the words of ABC, NBC, CBS, the BBC, MSNBC, FOX, and CNN over this guy's experience?     I personally find it hard to do that.  And the more people I talk to who have been to Iraq, the more I see discrepancies between a soldier's story vs what I see/hear in the media.  It will be interesting to see what my roommate's (from college) take will be when I correspond with him.

I would also tell you that the "news" we receive in the US is very different from what the rest of the world sees........my point being is that they don't hate us because they hate" freedom.

Do you believe the hatred that we see for Americans is only as old as the war has been going on?

[Dos Equis]

Interesting that you say that.  I was at my neighbor's cookout, and I talked to a guy who has been over to Iraq a couple of times and is about to go again (branch of the navy...works with Navy Seals).  He said he was shocked at how the story is being spun in the media.  He quoted the number of deaths yearly due to DUI with respect to how many American lives have been lost.  He said it's a strange analogy, but it puts things into perspective in his opinion.  But he was adamant that we are there for good reason.  It gave me great perspective from someone who's actually been there vs. what I'm being told via the media.

Colossus I've had several conversations with people who have been to Iraq.  I know some who hated being there and some who want to be there.  The problem is the media doesn't highlight those who are proud to serve.  I talked to a friend the other day who has served one tour and is about to serve another and he told me about 40-year-old guys who joined solely to serve their country.  There are plenty of heroes like them in the military.  But the media is too busy trying to influence public opinion against the war to talk about those folks. 

[OzmO]

So, we should take the words of ABC, NBC, CBS, the BBC, MSNBC, FOX, and CNN over this guy's experience?     I personally find it hard to do that.  And the more people I talk to who have been to Iraq, the more I see discrepancies between a soldier's story vs what I see/hear in the media.  It will be interesting to see what my roommate's (from college) take will be when I correspond with him.

So because the soldiers didn't see the 9 people who died yesterday it didn't happen?  Or because you friend yesterday didn't see some of the many suicide bombs at the market they didn't happen?   I don't know what you getting at  here because these tragedies are what I'm talking about and it has very little to do with what news source i get them from because they are on every one of them including the ones outside the USA.  I look at the numbers and the direction of involvement and although there's plenty of soldiers who want to be there, i see pointless death and suffering.

Do you believe the hatred that we see for Americans is only as old as the war has been going on?

Hatred for America in parts of the world has existed for some time.  Some of it is unavoidable just because we are the big dog.  But much of it is due our foreign policy and those of whom we support.  C-500  i have traveled outside the US and lived in another country.  I have friends all over the world.   You should try and talk to others outside the US or travel yourself.   You may never see things the way i do but you will see that the news we get fed here is far different from what the rest of the world sees and you may understand that most of those who hate us, hate our government and resent us for continuing to support it's policies both under dem control and rep control.  It's not about people that hate freedom and what we stand for.......... except in the case of radical Islam which is a smaller percentage of Muslims.

[militarymuscle69]

This war now has the REPUBLICAN stamp on it.


yes, the dems allowed it to happen in 2002.

But when people think about voting in 08, they're going to remember two things:

Dems tried to stop the war, and failed.
Bush vetoed them and got to keep his war.

Now, seeing as Bush vetoed the will of 70% of America last month, I'm guessing you have a lot of people who are going to vote anti-war.... hello, Edwards.

You fucking lib, voters are going to see how weak the Dems are...The repubs have stood up for what they wanted and got it, the dems try once and cave....

[240 is Back]

You fucking lib, voters are going to see how weak the Dems are...The repubs have stood up for what they wanted and got it, the dems try once and cave....

You fukcing douchebag brainwashed sheep.

Wow, namecalling feels good.

[militarymuscle69]

You fukcing douchebag brainwashed sheep.

Wow, namecalling feels good.

I love name calling dude, The Col keeps me fenced in on what I can say to students so I take it out on you queers...serious though, I don't have a party I vote for regularly, but there is no way this war funding bill is going to hurt the GOP, especially when you hear over and over from reporters and anaylists on every network now a days that we can't leave Iraq and the Dems keep harping on it. It is only a matter of time before the sheep start agreeing with them and the Dems will need to scramble to change their position

[Colossus_500]

So because the soldiers didn't see the 9 people who died yesterday it didn't happen?  Or because you friend yesterday didn't see some of the many suicide bombs at the market they didn't happen?   I don't know what you getting at  here because these tragedies are what I'm talking about and it has very little to do with what news source i get them from because they are on every one of them including the ones outside the USA.  I look at the numbers and the direction of involvement and although there's plenty of soldiers who want to be there, i see pointless death and suffering.

I don't like it either, bro.  I have some people who are very dear to my heart who are over in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I share the sentiments that you do in the tragedy of losing loved ones or the possibility of it.  But to say that this is all pointless is tough for me to say, because I believe it's something that only time will tell.  I'm sure the folks of WWI and WWII felt that the death and suffering was pointless too at some point, wouldn't you agree?  Even if we didn't deal with Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden is still a threat, as is the North Korean dictator, and let's not forget Iran's new president.   Whether we want to be involved in what's happening with the Muslim world or not, we are in it.  

Hatred for America in parts of the world has existed for some time.  Some of it is unavoidable just because we are the big dog.  But much of it is due our foreign policy and those of whom we support.  C-500  i have traveled outside the US and lived in another country.  I have friends all over the world.   You should try and talk to others outside the US or travel yourself.   You may never see things the way i do but you will see that the news we get fed here is far different from what the rest of the world sees and you may understand that most of those who hate us, hate our government and resent us for continuing to support it's policies both under dem control and rep control.  It's not about people that hate freedom and what we stand for.......... except in the case of radical Islam which is a smaller percentage of Muslims.

Wouldn't you agree that we're the big dog because of our freedom?  While I admit to not being world traveled, I have plenty of friends (one is the godfather to one of my kids) and associations with others who hail from other parts of the world (Belgium, France, Pakistan, Spain, Japan, Australia, Netherlands).  I believe it's fair enough for me to have the conclusions that I make based on what these folks tell me along with what I see in the media.  

My point is that it's hard for me to argue someone's personal experience, or to just look at numbers that are thrown on the screen.  The thousands of U.S. lives that have been lost represent a deep impact to families.  But bro, were have memorials all over this country (my father is buried in Arlington) that represent why we are who we are as a country, and we had to make sacrifices to be where we are.   War is tragic, I agree, bro.  But it's necessary.  So, I disagree that we are not hated because of our freedom.  "It's our very freedom that drives other countries to cause the malice at with they do."  - these are the exact words from my Flemish friend (guy from Belgium).  

[240 is Back]

I love name calling dude, The Col keeps me fenced in on what I can say to students so I take it out on you queers...serious though, I don't have a party I vote for regularly, but there is no way this war funding bill is going to hurt the GOP, especially when you hear over and over from reporters and anaylists on every network now a days that we can't leave Iraq and the Dems keep harping on it. It is only a matter of time before the sheep start agreeing with them and the Dems will need to scramble to change their position

well, hopefully those bars up your ass feel good.

"Only a matter of time until the sheep [voters?] start agreeing with the republicans?"

Trends show otherwise, dude.  Dropped from 70% support to 29% support.  Would you bet your paycheck that MORE than 29% of AMericans will supprt the war in 18 months?  Please tell us why, if that's what you believe.

[militarymuscle69]

well, hopefully those bars up your ass feel good.

"Only a matter of time until the sheep [voters?] start agreeing with the republicans?"

Trends show otherwise, dude.  Dropped from 70% support to 29% support.  Would you bet your paycheck that MORE than 29% of AMericans will supprt the war in 18 months?  Please tell us why, if that's what you believe.

Yes..when the media supported the war the sheep supported it, when the media didn't support it..the sheep (you) didn't support it...in the last few weeks the media hasn't changed to support per say, but they are starting to say we can't pull out, so despite sheep hating the war they will slowly turn to say we can't pull out...a fact I think we agree on....which will cause the dems to change position right before the election

[240 is Back]

mm69,

actually, if you watched the cable news like I do, 4-5 hours a night as I'd work, you'd see the general consensus is half our troops gone by winter/early spring. 

They are NOT starting to say we cannot pull out - they're actually condoning it more and more, and exploring more scenarios where it could actually occur.

What channels/guests/hosts have you seen where "they are starting to say we can't pull out"? 

[militarymuscle69]

mm69,

actually, if you watched the cable news like I do, 4-5 hours a night as I'd work, you'd see the general consensus is half our troops gone by winter/early spring. 

They are NOT starting to say we cannot pull out - they're actually condoning it more and more, and exploring more scenarios where it could actually occur.

What channels/guests/hosts have you seen where "they are starting to say we can't pull out"? 

CNN, FOX, I have heard them on all of the sunday shows....I believe you know that we can not pull out..don't interpret that as all out support for the war...The public is coming around...show me a poll (can't believe I said that) where they ask the question "do you support the war" followed up by "do you think the US can afford to completely withdrawl" and you would be suprised....hell do that on this foreum and you would probably get 70% that say unfortunately we need to stay. Fuck Congress would probably show 70% think we can't fully withdrawl.

[240 is Back]

CNN, FOX, I have heard them on all of the sunday shows....I believe you know that we can not pull out..don't interpret that as all out support for the war...The public is coming around...show me a poll (can't believe I said that) where they ask the question "do you support the war" followed up by "do you think the US can afford to completely withdrawl" and you would be suprised....hell do that on this foreum and you would probably get 70% that say unfortunately we need to stay. Fuck Congress would probably show 70% think we can't fully withdrawl.

Tonight on hardball and tucker - they talked all about how there WILL be a bloodbath - but that it will happen in 2007 or 2011, whenever we leave, so why waste american lives postponing the inevitable?

Nobody is denying there's going to be a bloodbath.  But the trend of "should we leave" continues to say "Yes we should leave".  There is no rebound.  People might understand the situation more - but they want our boys and girls home more than ever.

[OzmO]

I don't like it either, bro.  I have some people who are very dear to my heart who are over in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I share the sentiments that you do in the tragedy of losing loved ones or the possibility of it.  But to say that this is all pointless is tough for me to say, because I believe it's something that only time will tell.  I'm sure the folks of WWI and WWII felt that the death and suffering was pointless too at some point, wouldn't you agree?  Even if we didn't deal with Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden is still a threat, as is the North Korean dictator, and let's not forget Iran's new president.   Whether we want to be involved in what's happening with the Muslim world or not, we are in it. 

There's a difference between WW1 and WW2 versus the Iraq war.  While i'm not all too versed in WW1, i can hold my own with virtually anyone on WW2.  HEre are some of the differences:

We invaded Iraq.  It was preemptive based on faulty intel.  We were not attacked by Iraq and Iraq never declared war on us and hadn't made any attacks on us.  We are now fighting an insurgency......not a war  We already disposed of the "unrealistic" threat of Saddam. 

In WW2 Japan attack us directly at Pearl and in bases and military installations all around the pacific the very next day.  Also, the day after pearl harbor
Germany declared war on us.  When we voted to go to war only 2 people voted against it in congress.

All these threats you are talking about are more now becuase of our reckless invasion of Iraq.  And as young men, fathers, etc... die everyday i can't help but think they put there for the wrong reasons and their lives have been put in danger irresponsibly by the BUSH administration.

Wouldn't you agree that we're the big dog because of our freedom? 

I would not agree with that what so ever.  the fact that we are more free than many places isn't a bad thing, don;t get me wrong.  but we are powerful for other reasons:

-  We are brilliant capitalists
-  We know how to take advantage of resources both ours and others
-  We are very industrious and inventive
-  We are isolated geographically from Asia and Europe.

These are just a few reasons.  There are many others countries that are free and not near as powerful as we are.

Wouldn't you agree that we're the big dog because of our freedom?  While I admit to not being world traveled, I have plenty of friends (one is the godfather to one of my kids) and associations with others who hail from other parts of the world (Belgium, France, Pakistan, Spain, Japan, Australia, Netherlands).  I believe it's fair enough for me to have the conclusions that I make based on what these folks tell me along with what I see in the media. 

My point is that it's hard for me to argue someone's personal experience, or to just look at numbers that are thrown on the screen.  The thousands of U.S. lives that have been lost represent a deep impact to families.  But bro, were have memorials all over this country (my father is buried in Arlington) that represent why we are who we are as a country, and we had to make sacrifices to be where we are.   War is tragic, I agree, bro.  But it's necessary.  So, I disagree that we are not hated because of our freedom.  "It's our very freedom that drives other countries to cause the malice at with they do."  - these are the exact words from my Flemish friend (guy from Belgium). 

I agree and take the same pride in our country as you do for the same reasons.  I just feel we have lost our way since 9/11.  Our white uniforms are more gray now becuase of Iraq.

[headhuntersix]

I'd have to agree with most of this..we are failing in Iraq because we don't understand the enemy..u can't hoist democracy on people who are incapable of understanding it or evening having a desire for it.