Author Topic: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag  (Read 2324 times)

Dos Equis

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Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« on: November 12, 2007, 10:30:56 AM »
Translation:  if Hillary wins (again), get your checkbook.   :-\

Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag

Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:39 PM

By: Rod Proctor 
Talk may be cheap, but the cost to keep promises made by Democratic candidates could top $700 billion and push individual tax rates above 50 percent for the first time since the 1986 Reagan tax reform, fiscal experts warn.

In fact, a Democratic sweep in 2008 could push America’s tax burden up to 7th highest in the developed world, up from 21st place, according to researchers at the nonpartisan Tax Foundation.

“If Democrats control everything after 2008, there will be a substantial tax increase,” Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia tells Newsmax. “Most or all of the Bush tax cuts will be allowed to expire and tax rates may be increased besides.”

The largest hike in federal spending would come from Democrats’ plans to extend health coverage to 47 million uninsured U.S. residents.

Hillary Clinton’s plan, according to her campaign, would add about $110 billion a year to the federal budget.

Barak Obama’s plan, say Harvard University experts, would cost between $50 billion and $65 billion a year. John Edwards’s health care plan, according to an Emory University study, could run up to $145 billion a year.

Democrats across the board are also pitching college tuition subsidies with an annual price tag of up to $30 billion. And their promises don’t stop there. Most candidates have pledged new programs in federally funded areas such as primary education, roads and bridges, and energy.

All told, the Democratic platform could cost more than $700 billion over four years.

“I have a million ideas,” Clinton tells the Boston Globe, “and the country can’t afford them all.”

On that point, even Clinton’s critics agree with her.

“It is pretty clear that more spending programs have been promised out of repealing the top Bush tax cuts than [the] repeal would be able to fund,” Nate Bailey of the Tax Foundation tells Newsmax. “It’s almost certain that funding all of these proposed programs would require massive tax hikes, the scale of which the U.S. has never seen.

President Bush’s tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, which amount to some $188 billion in tax relief per year, are set to expire beginning in 2010. A Democratically-controlled Congress appears intent on allowing that to happen once the Bush veto threat vanishes, experts note.

Last month, Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, offered a taste of what’s to come. Rangel set out a series of tax goals – something he termed “the mother of all tax reforms” – hinged on the expiration of the Bush cuts.

Acknowledging that his plan has no chance as long as Bush is in the White House, Rangel said he’s first going after the unpopular Alternative Minimum Tax – a measure passed in 1969 to ensure the most wealthy would not be entirely insulated from paying taxes.

The AMT has never been tied to inflation. As a result, it now threatens to ensnare some 20 million middle-class taxpayers. In recent years, Congress has enacted annual “patches” to exclude middle-class families.

Rangel backed the patches again this year — offset by higher taxes on hedge-fund and private-equity managers — but said in 2009 he wanted to scrap the AMT entirely in favor of new taxes aimed squarely at the wealthiest Americans

“We should try to look at the disparity that exists between middle income and those that are more fortunate in income and try to spread the tax relief,” Rangel said in a press conference.

Rangel would also like to tack a 4-percent surtax on families making more than $200,000 per year and scale back cuts on capital gains taxes enacted under Bush.

The top Republican on the Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Jim McCrery of Louisiana, recently told Bloomberg News that the combined effect ending the Bush cuts and adding the surtax would result in a $3.5 trillion tax hike over 10 years.

Political commentator and Newsmax columnist Dick Morris, writes that a Democratic sweep would bring “mammoth tax increases” that would “be horrific and probably trigger a recession.”

What some call “horrific,” however, others, like Hillary Clinton, term merely “sacrifice.”

Pushed by Tim Russert at the recent Democratic debate to explain her position on the Rangel tax proposals, Clinton responded that, “we’ve not been asked to sacrifice anything. You know, young men and women wearing the uniform of our country are dying and being maimed. We have the average American family losing a thousand dollars in income, and George Bush and his cronies can’t figure out how they can give even more tax cuts to the wealthiest of Americans.”

When Russert pressed further, implying she had expressed support for Rangel’s 4-percent tax surcharge and his plans for the AMT, she demurred.

“No, I didn’t say that. I said that I’m in favor of doing something about the AMT. How we do it and how we put the package together everybody knows is extremely complicated.

“There are a lot of moving pieces here,” Clinton said. “I’m not going to get committed to a specific approach, but I applaud Chairman Rangel for beginning the conversation.”

Obama, asked a similar question by Russert, spoke of a “10,000-page tax code that is rife with corporate loopholes.”

“There’s a building in the Cayman Islands that supposedly houses 12,000 U.S. corporations, which means it is either the largest building in the world or the biggest tax ripoff in the world, and I think we know which one it is.”

Sabato, author of “A More Perfect Constitution: 23 Proposals to Revitalize Our Constitution,” believes taxes will be a cornerstone of the coming Republican campaign.

“The tax issue is one of the best Republicans will have for 2008,” he tells Newsmax. “It unifies the disparate wings of the GOP, and it targets a very real vulnerability among Democrats. This is one of their few bright spots

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/democrats_tax_increase/2007/11/11/48607.html
 

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 11:13:18 AM »
Hilary will raise taxes.


But honestly, for every poor and middle class voter, seeing gas prices reach $4.00 by the spring...

Well, it's going to be hard for candidate Rudy/Mitt to stand onstage and defend the current Bush policy of not taxing that top % of people a little bit more.

If Hilary expresses her intention to tax poor folks a little, and rich folks a lot... the poor folks are going to come out in droves for her.  When the economy is poor, the party in power has a real problem getting re-elected.  Mitt/Rudy have defended Bush tax system, and those quote will hurt them.

Decker

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 11:15:18 AM »
The debt has about tripled to 9 trillion dollars under Bush.

I'm not too worried about the cost of a Clinton presidency again.

Livewire

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 11:25:33 AM »
The debt has about tripled to 9 trillion dollars under Bush.

I'm not too worried about the cost of a Clinton presidency again.



Decker, you're normally very well versed in these things, but I honestly thought you were full of shit here.  After looking it up, I'm shocked.  you are correct.  This is indefensible.  It's hard to believe that some folks want to put another 2-4 trillion into a war with Iran.
Nasser called Palumbo an acromegalion

Decker

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 11:37:28 AM »
The debt has risen quite a bit under the Bush presidency.  The accounting standards of the IRaq war should tell you everything you want to know about our war-time spending.  There are no accounting standards.  Billions disappear.  Accountability is absent.

NOrmally I'd link these assertions, but I'm going home....I have the flu and my computer screen is breathing.

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 11:56:10 AM »
Interesting coming from a Bushie...  Lower Taxes and Rule the World... BRILLIANT!!!

Dos Equis

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 02:27:58 PM »
All told, the Democratic platform could cost more than $700 billion over four years.

“I have a million ideas,” Clinton tells the Boston Globe, “and the country can’t afford them all.”


Cha-ching.   :-\

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 02:54:35 PM »
All told, the Democratic platform could cost more than $700 billion over four years.

“I have a million ideas,” Clinton tells the Boston Globe, “and the country can’t afford them all.”


Cha-ching.   :-\
This cartoon says it all....

Dos Equis

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 02:57:06 PM »
This cartoon says it all....


Tell me about it.  Every taxpayer is going to take a hit. 

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 03:03:21 PM »
Someone has to pay the bill... It's got to be us.

Let me ask all of you "no taxes" people this one question...

When you die, and the deficit is still there... Who's going to pay it?

Answer: Your kids... and their kids... and their kids' kids.

Someone has to pay the bill.

What ever happened to SPEND LESS, have a SURPLUS, and maintain a BUDGET?

So far... I don't see this war saving me any money.

If I'm going to spend money, I'd rather it be on healthcare for poor kids, not some place I'd just as soon turn to glass.

You can't have it both ways...  I love how Republicans talk about "programs". They hate "programs"... Programs are bad.

The goddam Iraq war is the biggest fucking program going.

Back to the point (sorry for my tangent).

Someone has to pay the bill, and the only way bills get paid by the Federal Government is taxes... It sucks, but that's the way it is.

You either pay it now, or someone pays it later, and I don't think it's my kids responsibility to pay for it when it happened before he could even hold a job.


Dos Equis

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 03:24:06 PM »
Someone has to pay the bill... It's got to be us.

Let me ask all of you "no taxes" people this one question...

When you die, and the deficit is still there... Who's going to pay it?

Answer: Your kids... and their kids... and their kids' kids.

Someone has to pay the bill.

What ever happened to SPEND LESS, have a SURPLUS, and maintain a BUDGET?

So far... I don't see this war saving me any money.

If I'm going to spend money, I'd rather it be on healthcare for poor kids, not some place I'd just as soon turn to glass.

You can't have it both ways...  I love how Republicans talk about "programs". They hate "programs"... Programs are bad.

The goddam Iraq war is the biggest fucking program going.

Back to the point (sorry for my tangent).

Someone has to pay the bill, and the only way bills get paid by the Federal Government is taxes... It sucks, but that's the way it is.

You either pay it now, or someone pays it later, and I don't think it's my kids responsibility to pay for it when it happened before he could even hold a job.



Good points.  Someone has to pay the bill.  Better yet, someone needs to do a better job of managing our money.  Is this going to happen?  I doubt it.  Too much pork. 

But what this article discusses is how Democrats aren't going to manage money, but how they want to spend even more money, while trying to play class warfare.  It would be nice to see a shift in Congressional thinking (and in the executive branch on both sides) where we focus on reducing debt, the deficit, and our tax burden, while increasing opportunities for everyone.  It doesn't have to be one or the other. 

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 04:36:23 PM »
The bottom line should be this:

In 2012, will the national debt be greater with Hilary in office, or Rudy?

Since Rudy has said he'll continue the war and possibly open up a can of whoop-ass on iran, it's a safe bet the spending will continue, if not grow.  hilary wants to scale back US operations to green zone only.  It's a reduction in forces, which is a reduction in spending.

In 4 years, Hilary would borrow less than Rudy.  I think we can all agree on that based upon these facts.

She might tax rich people more, but those rich people own stocks, and have been making very good money off stock market thanks to Bush's war over the last 7 years.  If the same 5% of people who got richer for the last 7 years has to pay more over the next 4, I don't feel bad.  It means the other 95% of the population might catch a break.
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Decker

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 07:49:24 AM »
Good points.  Someone has to pay the bill.  Better yet, someone needs to do a better job of managing our money.  Is this going to happen?  I doubt it.  Too much pork. 

But what this article discusses is how Democrats aren't going to manage money, but how they want to spend even more money, while trying to play class warfare.  It would be nice to see a shift in Congressional thinking (and in the executive branch on both sides) where we focus on reducing debt, the deficit, and our tax burden, while increasing opportunities for everyone.  It doesn't have to be one or the other. 
Play class warfare?  You mean the class warfare that the wealthy have won hands down?  I think Ed Wolff has it right: implement a very meager 'wealth tax' http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html

That interview is worth reading.

With a wealth tax, we raise the needed revenue while not touching income taxes (since the really rich pay most of their taxes in capital gains at a rate of 15%).

Comparing the fiscal management of our government of democrats to republicans is informative.  Reagan and both Bushes caused our national debt to grow like a cancer.  They were republicans.

Bill Clinton was paying down the debt...not eliminating the deficit (which he did), but eliminating the debt.  He was a democrat.

By that scant analysis, I would say that democrats are better than republicans for the country's economic well-being.

Republicans = more debt

Democrats = less debt

So much for that article posted.

Dos Equis

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 10:18:46 AM »
Play class warfare?  You mean the class warfare that the wealthy have won hands down?  I think Ed Wolff has it right: implement a very meager 'wealth tax' http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html

That interview is worth reading.

With a wealth tax, we raise the needed revenue while not touching income taxes (since the really rich pay most of their taxes in capital gains at a rate of 15%).

Comparing the fiscal management of our government of democrats to republicans is informative.  Reagan and both Bushes caused our national debt to grow like a cancer.  They were republicans.

Bill Clinton was paying down the debt...not eliminating the deficit (which he did), but eliminating the debt.  He was a democrat.

By that scant analysis, I would say that democrats are better than republicans for the country's economic well-being.

Republicans = more debt

Democrats = less debt

So much for that article posted.

I mean the class warfare repeatedly waged by Democrats, who continually try and pit the "wealthy" against the "middle class."  As if we're not all in this together. 

I read the interview.  He talks about income and wealth disparity.  This is news?  So long as we have a free country, we will always have people at all levels of income and wealth.  The important thing is ensuring those at the bottom have the opportunity to move up and those at or near the top keep what they earn.   

Democrats = less debt?  O Rly?  The article I posted says "All told, the Democratic platform could cost more than $700 billion over four years."  Also says “It is pretty clear that more spending programs have been promised out of repealing the top Bush tax cuts than [the] repeal would be able to fund,” Nate Bailey of the Tax Foundation tells Newsmax.  “It’s almost certain that funding all of these proposed programs would require massive tax hikes, the scale of which the U.S. has never seen." 

Doesn't sound like less debt to me.   
 

Decker

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2007, 05:36:18 AM »
I mean the class warfare repeatedly waged by Democrats, who continually try and pit the "wealthy" against the "middle class."  As if we're not all in this together. 

I read the interview.  He talks about income and wealth disparity.  This is news?  So long as we have a free country, we will always have people at all levels of income and wealth.  The important thing is ensuring those at the bottom have the opportunity to move up and those at or near the top keep what they earn.   

Democrats = less debt?  O Rly?  The article I posted says "All told, the Democratic platform could cost more than $700 billion over four years."  Also says “It is pretty clear that more spending programs have been promised out of repealing the top Bush tax cuts than [the] repeal would be able to fund,” Nate Bailey of the Tax Foundation tells Newsmax.  “It’s almost certain that funding all of these proposed programs would require massive tax hikes, the scale of which the U.S. has never seen." 

Doesn't sound like less debt to me.   
 
The democrats try to make political inroads for 'joe average'.  The wealthy have their deregulation, tax cuts, and dividend tax abatements...not to mention gov. subsidized handouts like loan forgiveness, straight pay-offs, free R&D and free infrastructure (think phones and internet as a few among many handouts).

The level of wealth inequality that Wolff talks about is bad b/c it necessarily corrupts our democratic processes.  The voices of the few rich cast a suffocating shadow over the rest of us.  I have know idea why that would be fine with you.

Ah yes, 'income mobility' where every american can become a millionaire.  And now back to reality.  As Judge Smehls said, "the world needs ditch diggers too!"...and it does.  We cannot all become millionaires.  Besides that, true movement btn the income classes in any large measure is moderate in america.  Unless we count the great leaps by the downtrodden college student body of this country, where they work in a bookstore till 27 and don't get a high paying job until their late 20's or early 30's.

As we've seen, historically the democrats are much much better at managing the nation's finances.

The theoretical damage of democratic spending still pales in comparison to Bush's trillion dollar black hole in Iraq.  Bush borrows and spends like a drunken sailor yet you are worried about some speculative criticism that the democrats might actually pay for federal programs...

...instead of borrowin our futures away the way Bush does?

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2007, 06:31:33 AM »
Fuck all these folks!

Ron Paul 2008!
I hate the State.

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2007, 04:18:20 PM »
The democrats try to make political inroads for 'joe average'.  The wealthy have their deregulation, tax cuts, and dividend tax abatements...not to mention gov. subsidized handouts like loan forgiveness, straight pay-offs, free R&D and free infrastructure (think phones and internet as a few among many handouts).

The level of wealth inequality that Wolff talks about is bad b/c it necessarily corrupts our democratic processes.  The voices of the few rich cast a suffocating shadow over the rest of us.  I have know idea why that would be fine with you.

Ah yes, 'income mobility' where every american can become a millionaire.  And now back to reality.  As Judge Smehls said, "the world needs ditch diggers too!"...and it does.  We cannot all become millionaires.  Besides that, true movement btn the income classes in any large measure is moderate in america.  Unless we count the great leaps by the downtrodden college student body of this country, where they work in a bookstore till 27 and don't get a high paying job until their late 20's or early 30's.

As we've seen, historically the democrats are much much better at managing the nation's finances.

The theoretical damage of democratic spending still pales in comparison to Bush's trillion dollar black hole in Iraq.  Bush borrows and spends like a drunken sailor yet you are worried about some speculative criticism that the democrats might actually pay for federal programs...

...instead of borrowin our futures away the way Bush does?

Democrats pander to the people who have the moist coin just like Republicans. 

Sorry, but I don't believe there is any shadow being cast by "the wealthy."  I'm not even sure what that means.  Some people consider those who make $100,000 to be "wealthy," including those who might own a small business that grosses $100,000.  Those kinds of people, and there are many of them, aren't the enemy.  They work every bit as hard, or harder, as the person making a $50,000 a year salary. 

Yes everyone can become a millionaire.  Everyone has unlimited income and net worth opportunities.  It is easier/harder for some, but the opportunities are there.  People just need to be educated about how to get there.     


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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2007, 09:07:05 AM »
Democrats pander to the people who have the moist coin just like Republicans. 

Sorry, but I don't believe there is any shadow being cast by "the wealthy."  I'm not even sure what that means.  Some people consider those who make $100,000 to be "wealthy," including those who might own a small business that grosses $100,000.  Those kinds of people, and there are many of them, aren't the enemy.  They work every bit as hard, or harder, as the person making a $50,000 a year salary. 

Yes everyone can become a millionaire.  Everyone has unlimited income and net worth opportunities.  It is easier/harder for some, but the opportunities are there.  People just need to be educated about how to get there.     


Yes, the democratic party has pretty much abandoned the working class in many ways.

You don't understand that the Sup.Ct. has equated free speech with money and that those with the most money have the most speech?  You don't understand that politicians bend over backwards for donations from the rich?  You don't understand that top-down economic authoritariansim exists?  Then you have not seen corporate america.

That's part of the shadow cast by the elite.

Let's quantify the rich as: The top 1 percent of families (that) hold half of all non-home wealth.

Are you a millionaire yet?  The vast majority of citizens are not and never will be. 

Out of 300,000,000 people, about 8 million are millionaires.  So everyone cannot become a millionaire.  That's Anthony Robbins hogwash.

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2007, 09:49:34 AM »
Yes, the democratic party has pretty much abandoned the working class in many ways.

You don't understand that the Sup.Ct. has equated free speech with money and that those with the most money have the most speech?  You don't understand that politicians bend over backwards for donations from the rich?  You don't understand that top-down economic authoritariansim exists?  Then you have not seen corporate america.

That's part of the shadow cast by the elite.

Let's quantify the rich as: The top 1 percent of families (that) hold half of all non-home wealth.

Are you a millionaire yet?  The vast majority of citizens are not and never will be. 

Out of 300,000,000 people, about 8 million are millionaires.  So everyone cannot become a millionaire.  That's Anthony Robbins hogwash.

I do agree that money dominates the system.  I agree that money gets you a seat at the table and puts you at the front of the line in the political process.  I've seen this firsthand.  It is an unfortunate part of the system.  Both parties are guilty of this.  In that sense, you are correct. 

What I don't believe we can do is quantify "the wealthy" and prove that this amorphous group controls the system.  For example, a person who happens to make a lot of money may not even vote. 

I'm a millionaire just like half of the people posting on this website.   :D  Seriously, I'm not dumb enough to talk about my net worth on a public message board.  Too many looney birds.   :)

You're including kids in your 300,000,000 million?  I think you first have to determine the number of competent, working adults and retired people, and look at those with some time in the workforce and/or business world.  Much higher percentage if you look at it that way. 

And you leave Tony Robbins alone.  I have two of his books on my shelf.   :)  Great stuff. 

I have seen too many examples of people, both educated and uneducated, moving up the economic ladder to conclude it isn't possible for everyone.  You teach a person about work ethic, how to save and invest, live below their means, and about things like compound interest and they have the potential to substantially increase their net worth.     

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2007, 10:42:09 AM »
I do agree that money dominates the system.  I agree that money gets you a seat at the table and puts you at the front of the line in the political process.  I've seen this firsthand.  It is an unfortunate part of the system.  Both parties are guilty of this.  In that sense, you are correct. 

What I don't believe we can do is quantify "the wealthy" and prove that this amorphous group controls the system.  For example, a person who happens to make a lot of money may not even vote. 

I'm a millionaire just like half of the people posting on this website.   :D  Seriously, I'm not dumb enough to talk about my net worth on a public message board.  Too many looney birds.   :)

You're including kids in your 300,000,000 million?  I think you first have to determine the number of competent, working adults and retired people, and look at those with some time in the workforce and/or business world.  Much higher percentage if you look at it that way. 

And you leave Tony Robbins alone.  I have two of his books on my shelf.   :)  Great stuff. 

I have seen too many examples of people, both educated and uneducated, moving up the economic ladder to conclude it isn't possible for everyone.  You teach a person about work ethic, how to save and invest, live below their means, and about things like compound interest and they have the potential to substantially increase their net worth.     

Remove the 72,000,000 children and you still have a huge number.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-14.pdf

I agree that becoming a millionaire is a possibility.  It just cannot happen for everyone.  At least not until inflation makes 1,000,000 more like 10,000.

I enjoy watching Robbins's informercials.  I never felt like calling for his program but I always felt energized after the show.

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Re: Democratic Promises Carry High Price Tag
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2007, 11:46:47 AM »
Remove the 72,000,000 children and you still have a huge number.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-14.pdf

I agree that becoming a millionaire is a possibility.  It just cannot happen for everyone.  At least not until inflation makes 1,000,000 more like 10,000.

I enjoy watching Robbins's informercials.  I never felt like calling for his program but I always felt energized after the show.

So that's 228 million.  If you subtract the mentally disabled and those who haven't been in the workforce at least about 10 years, the number becomes even smaller. 

It's true that inflation has had a huge impact, but remember we are talking net worth here.  And a million isn't a magic number.  What about, say, $500,000 to $1 million (net worth)?  I bet that would at least double your 8 million number.  Point being there are plenty of opportunities for everyone.  I think it is definitely harder/easier for some, but we all have the same opportunities whether we are born here, immigrants, educated, uneducated, etc.  No other country offers this on such a grand scale. 

I guess it really comes down to which party you believe gives us the best chance to continue and increase those opportunities.