Faith of My Fathers...

[columbusdude82]

Mary is dead, and she did not die a virgin.  The Roman Catholic Church is wrong. 

Oh yeah, how do you know that? Why should I take your word over the divinely revealed dogma of Holy Mother Church?
What about the millions of pilgrims to Fatima, Medugorje (sp), Lourdes, etc... What about the 70,000 people who saw Our Lady's apparition at Fatima? Presumably they were all delusional?

Throughout history, they have done more harm to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than good.

How do you know what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? How do you know that the New Testament consists only of divinely revealed writings, and that no divinely revealed writings were left out?
These books you call the Gospel of Jesus were in the possession of the Catholic Church for centuries and centuries before the Protestant reformation. How do you know they didn't add to them? or change them? or take stuff out? How did you know they compiled all the right books in the first place?
How do you know the Book of Mormon is not part of the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"?

[columbusdude82]

BUMP for the Bible-thumpers

[loco]

BUMP for the Bible-thumpers

Thanks, columbusdude82!  I had forgotten about you.  Sorry!   

[loco]

Oh yeah, how do you know that? Why should I take your word over the divinely revealed dogma of Holy Mother Church?
What about the millions of pilgrims to Fatima, Medugorje (sp), Lourdes, etc... What about the 70,000 people who saw Our Lady's apparition at Fatima? Presumably they were all delusional?
How do you know what is the Gospel of Jesus Christ? How do you know that the New Testament consists only of divinely revealed writings, and that no divinely revealed writings were left out?
These books you call the Gospel of Jesus were in the possession of the Catholic Church for centuries and centuries before the Protestant reformation. How do you know they didn't add to them? or change them? or take stuff out? How did you know they compiled all the right books in the first place?
How do you know the Book of Mormon is not part of the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"?

Excellent question!

You are correct!  The Roman Catholic Church, for centuries, had in their possession the Gospels of Jesus, along with the rest of the New Testament.  You are correct also in that they had the power to re-write them or at least change those parts that contradict the Catholic church dogma, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, the dogma about her sinless nature, the dogma that church leaders shouldn't marry, eternal life through rituals, purgatory, and many many more. 

Well, they did not change a thing.  They had the texts in their possession, they had the power to change them, they knew the texts contradict their dogma, yet they did not change them.

In fact, it was because of those things in the Bible that contradict the Catholic Church that the Protestant reformation was started by Martin Luther.

Here is a question for you, columbusdude82.  Why did the Roman Catholic Church not change the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament while they had the chance?

I'll tell you why.  Because God is active in the preservation, compilation, translation and distribution of His inspired word, the Holy Bible.  That's why.

[columbusdude82]

I'll tell you why.  Because God is active in the preservation, compilation, translation and distribution of His inspired word, the Holy Bible.  That's why.

Non Sequitur.

they did not change them

We know some texts have been tampered with, particularly, early on in Christianity, before the Catholic Church as such.

For instance, a lot of scholars note that the Gospel of Mark initially ended with the discovery by Mary Magdalene of the empty tomb. The part about the risen Jesus was added later.

[loco]

First you say

These books you call the Gospel of Jesus were in the possession of the Catholic Church for centuries and centuries before the Protestant reformation. How do you know they didn't add to them? or change them? or take stuff out?

I ask you a question and instead of an answer you give me.

We know some texts have been tampered with, particularly, early on in Christianity, before the Catholic Church as such.

 

[columbusdude82]

That's part of the answer.

The Gospels were messed around with as soon as they were written, and that's why there are discrepant early copies of them. I gave one example of that.

Then the Church of Rome took over, and they might have messed around with the translations of some texts, but they mostly propagated the sick theology of Paul, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas.

Point is, you can't know for sure what the Gospel of Jesus (if there ever was such a thing at first) really was.

[loco]

That's part of the answer.

The Gospels were messed around with as soon as they were written, and that's why there are discrepant early copies of them. I gave one example of that.

Every Bible that I have ever read has a note at the end of Mark 16:8 that says

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

Mark 16:9-20 simply talks about Jesus appearing to some of his followers.  I am aware of this and I do not claim that Mark 16:9-20 is the word of God, neither do I deny it because I really don't know.  Like you said, this happened way before the Roman Catholic church took over.

Some Bible scholars, even secular scholars believe that Mark wrote two Gospels, an early, very short version and a later, slightly longer and more detailed version.  But we don't know.

This is the only such case in the Bible, and the note shows the honesty of Bible scholars and translators in sharing with us the truth.

Then the Church of Rome took over, and they might have messed around with the translations of some texts, but they mostly propagated the sick theology of Paul, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas.

Point is, you can't know for sure what the Gospel of Jesus (if there ever was such a thing at first) really was.

The Roman Catholic church did not change a thing in the New Testament, and that in itself is a mystery because the New Testament, in many many places contradicts Roman Catholic Dogma.

[columbusdude82]

The Roman Catholic church did not change a thing in the New Testament

Didn't they (in the early days) get to choose which books made it into the New Testament and which were thrown out?

I rather like the Protoevangelion of James and the Gospel of Thomas (NOT the Infancy Gospel of Thomas).

[columbusdude82]

OK I decided to dig up this thread about the "faith of my fathers," i.e. Christianity, specifically Catholicism.

I was staying with friends a few weeks back, and on Sunday I offered to go to mass with them so I wouldn't stay at home by myself. (They are devout Catholics.)

During mass, I recalled one thing that bugged me about Roman Catholicism. Praying to God and Jesus is good. Praying for the intercession of Our Lady (in all her different apparitions) is fine as well.

Praying for the intercession of two dozen saints is pushing it for me. Surely, God heard me the first two dozen times, and doesn't need to hear my whining from his mom, from St. Francis Xavier, St Francis of Assisi, St Martin, St Theresa, St Rita, St Michael, ...?

I also questioned the basis of sainthood, which is performing miracles. From St Peter to Mother Teresa, I am not convinced of the miracle-working powers of any of them... I did not have faith...