Author Topic: What Obama *should've* said  (Read 9144 times)

24KT

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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2008, 08:45:24 PM »
Canada has it's share of reactionary hicks too, Judi.  You haven't been outside of the Toronto area much, have you?   ::)  And all the things you say about Toronto applies to many large American cities as well. You try to paint America as if every one is some uneducated bumpkin from small-town Alabama or something.  ::)

Actually, ...you just painted small-town Alabamans as reactionary hicks. I don't know about you, ...but I have friends and colleagues from Alabama, and I sure wouldn't classify them as hicks.

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Yes, you're more liberal, but that's not necessarily a positive.  Socialism, even when practiced as Social Democracy (and that is what you have for all practical purposes),  has far more negatives than positives, and just because we've chosen a different path doesn't mean you're right or we're wrong.  America is less secular, and I'll agree that's a negative, but most of the rest of what you say is total crap and colored by your Canuck perspective.

He asked me what I liked about Canada, and you're telling me my view is coloured by my Canadian perspective?!?!
Well dah! That's exactly what he asked for. Yes, Canada chose a different path from the US. While your country was pilfering your national treasury to pay for an unnecessary war of aggression thousands of miles across the globe, Canada was instead reaching out to those who were different, and addressing long standing grievances within her population, instituting universal healthcare and building & strengthening the country both socially & economically, ...while American cities burned, and people marched in the streets demanding the civil rights the constitution promised. When vietnam was over, you had no money to care for your wounded & disabled vets, let alone provide universal healthcare, and one of your biggest crooks got in bed with the insurance providers culminating in the current system of uncloaked pernicious greed that dares to call itself healthcare.

Now here we are 30 yrs later, and you're all set to travel down that same road... again. Yes, my country has chosen a different path from yours, ...and that's just one of the things I like. The question was not however who's right and who's wrong. The question posed to me was "what do you like about Canada?" Please do try to keep up.
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War-Horse

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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2008, 08:55:30 PM »
Sometimes its embarrasing to be american....Ever since bush was exposed as a huge liar of EPIC proportions and dumber than a box of rocks....theres been no pride.

70% of our country thinks hes a retarded mess...at least thats a good point i guess... :)

24KT

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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2008, 09:12:22 PM »
I agree with most of your points. But about #3, I don't think they actually believe that, they just understand that most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation re: oil or what happens if oil supplies get inturrupted, so they needed a cover story.

So which is it Goatboy, on the one hand you dismiss my assessment as the rants of a Canuck LIB, yet you admit:
"most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation".

Which makes a vote for McCain or Hillary, all the more dangerous for your country and the world.
An invasion of Iran will shut this continent down without Achmenijad or any Ayatollah or Revolutionary Guard member having to fire a shot. Shutting down the straits of Hormuz will cripple any society run on oil. That's why you need a leader who'll invest in alternative, sustainable, renewable energy, not someone focussed on squeezing every last drop out of the ground, while profitting big oil, and the very people seeking to destroy you, and causing every man, woman, and child in your country to submit to a life of indentured servitude to the Fed, and to a rising superpower without your best interests in mind. If you think China is going to care about American citizens, and respect the US Constitution, you have only to look at how China treats her own citizens, and cares for her own environment to give you a good accurate read on that.
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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2008, 10:10:59 PM »
So which is it Goatboy, on the one hand you dismiss my assessment as the rants of a Canuck LIB, yet you admit:
"most americans are not sophisticated enough to understand the current world situation".



Most Canadians don't understand the real deal with oil either.  Then again, since you've got a ton of it relative to your population size, it's really not much of an issue for you.
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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2008, 12:42:35 AM »
Well it sure ain't the weather. That's fer darn sure!  ;D

Please don't take this the wrong way, ...but I find Canadians are a far more "civilized" lot. We're LIBERAL. Not in the pejorative way it is euphemistically used south of the border, ...but in the actual meaning of the word. We don't box ourselves in or attempt to box others into a prison of narrow conformity, only to demonize those who either cannot or will not fit into their neatly arranged little boxes. We find our strengths in diversity & inclusiveness. I find Canadians to be much more secular, cosmopolitan, intelligent, less ignorant, more informed, more socially responsible, thoughtful and caring about our neighbours (across the street, across the city, town, province, country... and around the world). Maybe it's because we ARE the world. Walk down the streets of downtown Toronto, and it looks like a mini United Nations. Most are 1st. & 2nd. generation Canadians. Our lives are not as segregated as in the US, and we talk to each other, understanding the different issues we all face. If we don't know, ...we seek to understand. We feel no sense of superiority to our neighbours based upon nationality (unless we're talking about those south of the border)  ;) A huge percentage of us are all 1st & 2nd generation, so there isn't that "I'm Canadian and you're not" attitude. We know we're all immigrants in this shit together, building our country together, and we'll either sink or swim together, ...or worse... get gobbled up by US monoculture which, for many Canadians is a fate worse than death. Not trying to bash, ...but trying to be frank about Canadian sentiment. Canada is as sophisticated, worldly & cosmopolitan as any major world city, while still having retained small town values, morals, and ideals. Many Canadians fear Americans, ...and it's not your military might we fear, ...it's your culture, your attitudes, and incredible myopic ignorance that we find so horrifying we strive not to duplicate it here. For decades, it has been the running joke, ...our national sport next to hockey, ...but the last decade, the joke is no longer funny and has taken on frighteningly horrific proportions.

I don't attribute this to any natural intelligence on the part of Canadians. We too went through the things America is facing, but in Canada, the race for cultural supremacy, and the subjugation of the "other" didn't have the distinct lines of delination marked by skin colour. Canada's two warring tribes were both White Western European descendants. As a result the racism and misguided ideas of inherent racial superiority that facilitated the great divide in the US didn't take root to the same degree because the "other guys" looked just the first group. We Canadians had to look at the unfair & unequal treatment that might otherwise have been dismissed had it been visited upon many other ethnic groups with a differnt color skin etc., Having the benefit of sitting back and watching the conflicts that led to Watts, and a few other American cities burned to the ground gave us perspective. When we saw the bombs going off in Montreal we realized we had the same crap happening, only we couldn't point to those with Black skin. These terrorists were homegrown, born & bred, and they were white. We saw the mistakes of our neighbours and vowed not to repeat them. I think too, Canada had strong intelligent & wise leaders who got great advice. An extremely influential advisor to Prime Minister Trudeau the father of multiculturalism in Canada was xxxLinda's ex boss Jerry Goodis, an extremely successful ad man who got the rich & powerful to actually listen to the grievances of disenfranchised or marginalized Canadians.

Plus Canada has porn over the public airwaves without making you pay for premium cable to get it.  :P


Toronto smells like a sewer in the summer, (but I do miss it  ;)).

You missed the fact that Canada IS in Afghanistan and IS helping with the war in Iraq in "supply" type functions. Canada may not  be going down the same path as America in some ways but  Canada's hands aren't completly clean, in regards to it's war stance. (I guess this is where you think Harper is a bastard.  :-\)


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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2008, 08:04:50 AM »
Thanks for the answer, obviously took some time to type.

One of America's problems is that many leaders believe its our responsibility as a world leader to police other nations.  This costs an immense amount of $ not to mention the debt of American lives.  It is a noble cause to help other nations that need help, but IMO we must pull back some to both protect our nation and protect our national reputation.  One difficulty is that the US gives a lot of aid...if we withdraw that, we may be viewed as bad and uncaring again.


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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2008, 08:10:07 AM »
As far as Canada being liberal, I can't speak about how Canadia liberalism is different than American liberalism (I suspect it is different) but if it is like some European cities I've been to, people seem to mix better and are not be placed into categories and sub-cultures based on race.  The liberals in this country are at least as much to blame as the right wingers, as they have strongly promoted programs that separate people by race since the civil rights act, this has also contributed to separatist feelings and furthering sub-cultures.  People may underestimate the effect of sub-culture in continued racial divides.  When I went to England, I noticed black and white people acted, dressed and spoke very similarly.  Here, that is not always the case, particularly when there are class differences.  Federally funded entitlement programs then caused some backlash and feelings of resentment among some non-blacks which contributed to the continued struggle.  The fact that slavery ended 50 yrs later in the US may be the root of the issue.  Compounding our difficulties is the fact that there continued to be angry activists forming a cultural feeling of being wronged, being helpless and deserving entitlements and federal policies based on race which lead to separatism and mounted tensions on both sides post the civil rights laws.  These issues in our country have lead to some anger and feelings of entitlement that perhaps Canadian blacks have not felt or at least not as strongly.  Either way, the best way to move forward is to acknowledge the past but recognize the best ways of continuing to move past it as other countries have already done. 

24KT

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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2008, 03:19:42 PM »
Toronto smells like a sewer in the summer, (but I do miss it  ;)).

You must have lived in the beaches.  ;)

Quote
You missed the fact that Canada IS in Afghanistan and IS helping with the war in Iraq in "supply" type functions. Canada may not  be going down the same path as America in some ways but  Canada's hands aren't completly clean, in regards to it's war stance. (I guess this is where you think Harper is a bastard.  :-\)


Didn't miss that at all.  I didn't sat Canada's hand were completely clean. Just that we didn't take the same path over Vietnam, and we didn't take the same path over Iraq. I pointed out where I think Harper is a bastard. That and also the fact that he started a BS campaign against Obama. Clinton called his office to say she was just BS'ing Ohio on her stance about NAFTA and for Canadians not to worry. Then Harper's people throw it all over the airwaves that it was Obama doing the BS'ing? And they do this on the eve of the Ohio primary? That's just one of the reasons he's a bastard in my books.
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Re: What Obama *should've* said
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2008, 03:59:58 PM »
As far as Canada being liberal, I can't speak about how Canadia liberalism is different than American liberalism (I suspect it is different) but if it is like some European cities I've been to, people seem to mix better and are not be placed into categories and sub-cultures based on race.  The liberals in this country are at least as much to blame as the right wingers, as they have strongly promoted programs that separate people by race since the civil rights act, this has also contributed to separatist feelings and furthering sub-cultures.  People may underestimate the effect of sub-culture in continued racial divides.  When I went to England, I noticed black and white people acted, dressed and spoke very similarly.  Here, that is not always the case, particularly when there are class differences.  Federally funded entitlement programs then caused some backlash and feelings of resentment among some non-blacks which contributed to the continued struggle.  The fact that slavery ended 50 yrs later in the US may be the root of the issue.  Compounding our difficulties is the fact that there continued to be angry activists forming a cultural feeling of being wronged, being helpless and deserving entitlements and federal policies based on race which lead to separatism and mounted tensions on both sides post the civil rights laws.  These issues in our country have lead to some anger and feelings of entitlement that perhaps Canadian blacks have not felt or at least not as strongly.  Either way, the best way to move forward is to acknowledge the past but recognize the best ways of continuing to move past it as other countries have already done. 

It is the same here in Canada as well. Blacks & Whites both act and dress very similarly as well. It has only been in recent years with the ushering in of so called "Common Sense Revolution" (right wing majority government) that came into power in 1996 (and subsequently fvcked up this province soooo badly) along with what many classify as "cultural pollution" from the USA that we have begun to see a distinctive change in our young people. More & more poorer disenfranchised Black kids are adopting the styles and attitudes of American gangsta thugs, ...and of course this is also spreading to upper class white suburban kids as well who think it's cool to emulate these styles. They're quite laughable at time. I see all the little private school kids around my house. They will congregate in McD's change into their hip hop gangsta clothes and be all bad ass, ...then change back into their uniforms before going home to Mommy & Daddy.  ::)

The great divide in the US has to do not so much with the fact that slavery ended later in the US. It has to do with the fact that "segregation" was the law of the land. We had no such legislated discrimination here. When you forcibly separate a people, you shouldn't be surprised to see that they veer down two different paths and adopt different habits, develope different cultures, and different speech patterns. heck, look at the US. Try to find an American who speaks with a British accent. that wasn't too difficult to do in 1776, but as the years wore on, you now speak differently than those over in the UK, you spell things differently too. it's the same with the French Canadians. When Canada confederated in 1867, the Quebecois had been removed from France for over 200 yrs. They knew they weren't British, ...but they sure knew they weren't French anymore either. Even their language changed. Ask a Parisian from France to converse with a Quebecois and his brain bleeds just trying to understand them. my girlfriend is Belgian. Whenever we're in Montreal and people ask her if she speaks French, ...she just lies and says NO. {lol}

There are angry activists who have a right to be angry, and there were entitlement programs that were administered ineffectively and exploited by all sides to further their own agendas, and of course this leads to resentments, but there comes a time when one has to sit down and examine what went wrong, where, and why, and proceed. throwing the baby out with the bath water and harbouring additional hostilities isn't going to get you where you want to be or where you ought to be. I think requiring as so many in the USA do, that people fit into neat little boxes, and being afraid of what is different is what holds you back. the rush to conformity is mindboggling. I see it only because I am removed from it.

Our society also developed differently as well. I could be wrong, but I think close to 50% of our population is made up of 1st. & 2nd generation immigrants. We didn't have an entire class of people legislated to languish in poverty. Strike that. We do. Our native population hasn't fared so well over the years, and we do have entitlement programs as far as they are concerned. There are alot of grievances in the native aboriginal communities, and rightfully so. Our governments over the years have sought to address many of them, but again, no country is perfect. There is a large amount of aboriginals who like many of Wright's generation feel anger, and bitter resentment for what they've had to endure, and the attrocities committed against their people. There are also alot who have overcome, ...and with native self-determination, the situation in alot of the native communities and on the reserves is changing and improving for the better.

Since Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau ushered in a policy of multiculturalism, Toronto, which was whiter than wonderbread when I moved here, has turned into a vibrant cosmopolitan metropolis with every shade, hue, religion, and ethnicity under the sun. Our immigration patterns mirror world populations, and we have in a sense recreated the entire world right here in Canada in the space of a generation. As a result, we grew together, rather than apart.

Canadian leaders also are not afraid to tackle situations using a different approach, or quick to demonize something just because it came from someone who may not be popular. I'm thinking about Jean Crétien here. I remember when we had that Quebec referendum on sovereignty, and he borrowed a page out of Louis Farrakhan's playbook, and bussed Canadians in from all over the country to Quebec. It was a good idea, and it worked. We narrowly avoided separation. I could never see ANY US politico trying something suggested by a Farrakhan. It'd be denounced simply because of the messenger. I think people need to get over that. Get past the messenger & listen to the message

If you really want to know more about Canada, and how we developed,  do a search on here, for a 3 part post I made a few yrs ago called "Canada - The Great Northern Experiment". I think it was posted in the General section.
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