Does Obama favor an all-out ban on handguns?

[Hedgehog]

You ignore other facts and basic human needs to form your argument.  Those founding fathers would be disgusted with your idea of what rights we should have or not have. 

Saying drunks use guns to be violent could be 100% accurate.. WHO CARES?  I think the victim would much rather have a gun to defend himself than not, no? 

Saying criminals only attack other criminals is absurd. Are you telling me rape victims and victims of home invasion are mostly criminals?!?!  I suppose you think an armed woman should rely on the competence of police instead of a gun.

Being so ignorant and idealistic must be a blissfull combination.

I never said criminals only attacked criminals.

I said they primarily kills within their own kin.

Nice to see that you finally give credit to the real hard facts by the way.


And you ask who cares – how about this: if the drunk persons would not have access to guns, what do you think would happen in all those cases?

[Brixtonbulldog]

And you ask who cares – how about this: if the drunk persons would not have access to guns, what do you think would happen in all those cases?

So what about when crime IS committed against non criminals?  Happens all the time and what, you think the cops are gonna save you?  Get real.

If there were no guns there would be no gun crime.  This is where your idealism shows.  Eveytime the gov't tries to take away guns criminals still get thier hands on them.  Whoops.. guess they can now commit thier crimes agaist the populace without worrying about getting hurt. 

More gun laws only takes the guns out of the good citizens hands and leaves them at the mercy of the murderer, rapist, burglar, etc.  This is a historical fact.

[Brixtonbulldog]

I can't help but love this guy.  Enjoy!

[JBGRAY]

I don't like when someone starts spouting off statistics such as gun crime rates in the U.S.  The U.S. is made up of very diverse peoples and places.  The vast majority of gun violence happens within the inner cities and metro areas.  It is both unfair and stupid to equally apply gun laws over an entire spectrum when the problem is focused in primarily one area. 

The source of the problem is not guns.  The source is borderline criminality that is caused by unsavory and oft illegal activities.....drugs, prostitution, and gangs.  Domestic problems, the broken family system that is encouraged by our government and major media outlets, is also a big source where guns become involved.

Do you remember all the various school shootings?  Columbine, VT, NIU, and slews of others.  What was blamed?  What was called for to be restricted?  What was the perceived culprit?  Guns.  But, of the major shooting incidents, there was one thing that all the shooters had in common:  they were doped up on prescription drugs.  Our society is literally doped up.  These prescription drugs are no better than the illegal drugs out there.

[Brixtonbulldog]

I don't like when someone starts spouting off statistics such as gun crime rates in the U.S.  The U.S. is made up of very diverse peoples and places.  The vast majority of gun violence happens within the inner cities and metro areas.  It is both unfair and stupid to equally apply gun laws over an entire spectrum when the problem is focused in primarily one area. 

The source of the problem is not guns.  The source is borderline criminality that is caused by unsavory and oft illegal activities.....drugs, prostitution, and gangs.  Domestic problems, the broken family system that is encouraged by our government and major media outlets, is also a big source where guns become involved.

Do you remember all the various school shootings?  Columbine, VT, NIU, and slews of others.  What was blamed?  What was called for to be restricted?  What was the perceived culprit?  Guns.  But, of the major shooting incidents, there was one thing that all the shooters had in common:  they were doped up on prescription drugs.  Our society is literally doped up.  These prescription drugs are no better than the illegal drugs out there.

All good points.  They also blamed Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, and Rammstein... very unfair.

[marcus]

I can't help but love this guy.  Enjoy!

AWESOME! 

[Hedgehog]

The source is borderline criminality that is caused by unsavory and oft illegal activities.....drugs, prostitution, and gangs.  Domestic problems, the broken family system that is encouraged by our government and major media outlets, is also a big source where guns become involved.

Do you remember all the various school shootings?  Columbine, VT, NIU, and slews of others.  What was blamed?  What was called for to be restricted?  What was the perceived culprit?  Guns.  But, of the major shooting incidents, there was one thing that all the shooters had in common:  they were doped up on prescription drugs.  Our society is literally doped up.  These prescription drugs are no better than the illegal drugs out there.

How many people do you think would've been killed if the criminals had no access to guns or the doped up kids had no access to guns?

How many Columbines would there have been?

[Brixtonbulldog]

if the criminals had no access to guns

Do you think that more gun laws will actually prevent criminals from getting guns?

[Decker]

Do you think that more gun laws will actually prevent criminals from getting guns?

I think it depends.

If the laws re crimes committed with a gun or simply violating a gun ban were made more draconian, I'd think there'd be a change in behavior.

For instance, make any crime committed with a gun an aggravating factor in sentencing that tacks on 25 years to a sentence automatically.  I think criminals might think twice about using a gun in a crime when faced with 25+ years in prison.

[Brixtonbulldog]

I think it depends.

If the laws re crimes committed with a gun or simply violating a gun ban were made more draconian, I'd think there'd be a change in behavior.

For instance, make any crime committed with a gun an aggravating factor in sentencing that tacks on 25 years to a sentence automatically.  I think criminals might think twice about using a gun in a crime when faced with 25+ years in prison.

Ok.. good point.  Actual punishment for offenders is agreed by even most pro gunners.

What we don't agree with is further restriction for those of us who are NOT criminals.

[Hedgehog]

I think it depends.

If the laws re crimes committed with a gun or simply violating a gun ban were made more draconian, I'd think there'd be a change in behavior.

For instance, make any crime committed with a gun an aggravating factor in sentencing that tacks on 25 years to a sentence automatically.  I think criminals might think twice about using a gun in a crime when faced with 25+ years in prison.

That makes little sense.

Since most gun related killings are commited by intoxicated persons. These persons have their judgement flawed due to the alcohol or drugs.

So what do you want to do?

Ban alcohol?

[Decker]

That makes little sense.

Since most gun related killings are commited by intoxicated persons. These persons have their judgement flawed due to the alcohol or drugs.

So what do you want to do?

Ban alcohol?

I didn't know most gun deaths involve alcohol.  I've never seen that statistic.

Of course a 25 year mandatory prison sentence for gun crimes would have an effect on gun crime statistics.

Even if I accept your contention that most gun killings are alcohol related, I don't see how that changes anything. 

Does alcohol erase completely a person's rationality?  No it doesn't.  People drive drunk safely all the time.

In other words, inebriation does not jettison all judgment.

Especially when 25 years in prison enters the equation.

[Hedgehog]

I didn't know most gun deaths involve alcohol.  I've never seen that statistic.

Of course a 25 year mandatory prison sentence for gun crimes would have an effect on gun crime statistics.

Even if I accept your contention that most gun killings are alcohol related, I don't see how that changes anything. 

Does alcohol erase completely a person's rationality?  No it doesn't.  People drive drunk safely all the time.

In other words, inebriation does not jettison all judgment.

Especially when 25 years in prison enters the equation.

According to Lenke (1989) up to 86% of the shooters and 75% of the victims were intoxicated with alcohol or on other drugs.

Research also shows that the deadly violence is, unlike what NRA and other pro-2nd amendment groups want to tell us, mostly commited within the nearest social community.

Ie, friends, family and near-community.


So the offenders are those who gets drunk.

How are you gonna trust anyone with 20 guns at home and who is drunk and pissed because his best friend Billy-Moe just fcuked his daughter?

Does alcohol erase completely a person's rationality?  No it doesn't.

That's your opinion.

What does the 86% rate tell you?

[240 is Back]

According to Lenke (1989) up to 86% of the shooters and 75% of the victims were intoxicated with alcohol or on other drugs.

That was 19 years ago.

In the last 19 years, many American states have opened up concealed carry laws. 

This means it's not just the rowdy hillbillies with shotguns that have guns.  It means teachers, doctors, lawyers, and other professionals are now carrying.

In the last 19 years, a lot more people started carrying guns.

[Decker]

According to Lenke (1989) up to 86% of the shooters and 75% of the victims were intoxicated with alcohol or on other drugs.

Research also shows that the deadly violence is, unlike what NRA and other pro-2nd amendment groups want to tell us, mostly commited within the nearest social community.

Ie, friends, family and near-community.


So the offenders are those who gets drunk.

How are you gonna trust anyone with 20 guns at home and who is drunk and pissed because his best friend Billy-Moe just fcuked his daughter?
  

I don't see where that says that 86% of gun deaths are alcohol related.

In fact I found this:   Lenke (1986) estimated that alcohol accounts for about 50% of violent crimes in Sweden.
http://www.rpkab.se/Alcoholandcrime.htm  That's violent crime.  And in your excerpted statement it refers to shooters...not killers.

But that's moot.  I think that mandatory 25 years in the can for gun use during the commission of a crime will have a deterrent effect on gun crime and you don't.  

For some reason, you think rationality disappears entirely.  I don't.

[Hedgehog]

I don't see where that says that 86% of gun deaths are alcohol related.

In fact I found this:   Lenke (1986) estimated that alcohol accounts for about 50% of violent crimes in Sweden.
http://www.rpkab.se/Alcoholandcrime.htm  That's violent crime.  And in your excerpted statement it refers to shooters...not killers.

But that's moot.  I think that mandatory 25 years in the can for gun use during the commission of a crime will have a deterrent effect on gun crime and you don't. 

For some reason, you think rationality disappears entirely.  I don't.

Yes.

That is a different study but related, done a few years earlier.

Here is the one I were referring to:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=137633

I got to give you credit for being someone who really takes the time to look into sources and backs your own arguments up.

Even if I don't always agree with you, I gotta give you credit for knowing your shit.

[Decker]

Yes.

That is a different study but related, done a few years earlier.

Here is the one I were referring to:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=137633

I got to give you credit for being someone who really takes the time to look into sources and backs your own arguments up.

Even if I don't always agree with you, I gotta give you credit for knowing your shit.

Same here Sir.

[War-Horse]

not related but i thought my neocon buds might enjoy !



Poll: Bush most unpopular in modern history

May 1, 2008
New poll numbers show bad news for president Bush.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — A new poll suggests that George W. Bush is the most unpopular president in modern American history.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Thursday indicates that 71 percent of the American public disapprove of how Bush his handling his job as president.

"No president has ever had a higher disapproval rating in any CNN or Gallup poll; in fact, this is the first time that any president's disapproval rating has cracked the 70 percent mark," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.



NT

You damn spammer!!!!!!!!

[Brixtonbulldog]

not related but i thought my neocon buds might enjoy !

Poll: Bush most unpopular in modern history

May 1, 2008
New poll numbers show bad news for president Bush.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — A new poll suggests that George W. Bush is the most unpopular president in modern American history.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Thursday indicates that 71 percent of the American public disapprove of how Bush his handling his job as president.

"No president has ever had a higher disapproval rating in any CNN or Gallup poll; in fact, this is the first time that any president's disapproval rating has cracked the 70 percent mark," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

NT

Actually I'm glad you posted that.  It's an unfortunate fact that about 71% of Americans are dumb as a post.  I believe that number is growing exponentially.

[240 is Back]

Actually I'm glad you posted that.  It's an unfortunate fact that about 71% of Americans are dumb as a post.  I believe that number is growing exponentially.

Bush used to have a 70%+ approval rating.

Were these same people domb then?

You can't have it both ways, Brix.  Did 50% of the population suddenly "get dumb"?

Poor, poor argument.

[Brixtonbulldog]

You can't have it both ways, Brix.  Did 50% of the population suddenly "get dumb"?

yes 

[War-Horse]

Bush used to have a 70%+ approval rating.

Were these same people domb then?

You can't have it both ways, Brix.  Did 50% of the population suddenly "get dumb"?

Poor, poor argument.

I swear you'd be a great politician...

[240 is Back]

yes 

So people got dumber - as more information came out?
People knew LESS about the truth as MORE of the WMD truths came out?

That would be the first time in history that more information made people dumber.
Good work skittles, you just made history!

[Brixtonbulldog]

So people got dumber - as more information came out?
People knew LESS about the truth as MORE of the WMD truths came out?

That would be the first time in history that more information made people dumber.
Good work skittles, you just made history!

I know.. quite astonishing, isn't it!