Why do non-Christians...

[Decker]

 

- This is a Christian Nation right?   - Of course see pt #1   - Again the nation was founded on Christian values and Christian laws.

This country was also founded on slavery. 

    

Correction, our truth is based on the Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the bible) we stand firm on the Canon of scripture
John 8:31-32
31 Jesus told the people who had faith in him, "If you hold to my teaching, you truly are my disciples.
32 You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 

You are confusing true discipleship with false teaching, don't get it twisted!

Oh, so the One True Faith can be twisted to meet the needs of the individual or group, right?

Would you agree with me that us earthbound folk interpret the writings in your Canon and that those writings are interpretations of feelings/ideas interpreted as divinely inspired?

Can we at least agree on that?

[BayGBM]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

I have found the opposite to be true.  People who profess to be Christians spend an awful lot of time trying to police the behavior of others who do not share their beliefs.

[Hustle Man]

  This country was also founded on slavery. 

    Oh, so the One True Faith can be twisted to meet the needs of the individual or group, right?

Would you agree with me that us earthbound folk interpret the writings in your Canon and that those writings are interpretations of feelings/ideas interpreted as divinely inspired?

Can we at least agree on that?

PT1
America was not FOUNDED on slavery!
Slavery helped to build this country, this is true.
Slavery was sin and carried out by sinful men whom twisted the word of God for their own selfish gain. But this does not mean that they were not Christians it simply means that their flesh got in the way which is true for all of us that go astray.

PT2
No I vehemently disagree.
Scripture interprets Scripture
God the Holy Spirits inspired the writings and they should not be left to human interpretation because God's ways are not our ways and God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We will misinterpret scripture everytime when we lean to our own sinful understanding/interpretation/s.
This is the problem, prideful man wants to put God in a box hence the reason we have so many different denominations, so many different beliefs and/or religeons.
There is only 1 God 1 creator 1 redeemer

As it is writting:
Ephesians 4:5-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

This is what Christians believe and we do not dispute this.

Non-Christians dispute this as truth simply based on his/her on interpretation and observation.
The Bible (God's word) is clear you can not know Jesus as the Christ or as God if the Holy Spirit (God) does not teach you.

John 6:43-45
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. 'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

So it is clear to Christians why some have not believed yet!
It is clear why we do not agree on spiritual matters.
Simply put:
Non-Christians lean to their own understanding
Christians lean on the instruction of the Holy Spirit (God)

HM

[Hustle Man]

I have found the opposite to be true.  People who profess to be Christians spend an awful lot of time trying to police the behavior of others who do not share their beliefs.

I would agree that this happens and I believe this is rooted in pride which is a result of the curse of sin.

My post was really directed at the audience on this board, forgive me I should have specified.

[Deicide]

Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!
Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)

You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.

Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32

HM

Evidence, evidence, evidence?

[Decker]

PT1
America was not FOUNDED on slavery!
Slavery helped to build this country, this is true.
Slavery was sin and carried out by sinful men whom twisted the word of God for their own selfish gain. But this does not mean that they were not Christians it simply means that their flesh got in the way which is true for all of us that go astray.

Oh, I disagree with you on this one.  Free labor is quite an inducement.  Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution. 

We are flesh and blood.  This is where Christianity is decadent.  It decays living in this life.  The important place is the afterlife.

PT2
No I vehemently disagree.
Scripture interprets Scripture
God the Holy Spirits inspired the writings and they should not be left to human interpretation because God's ways are not our ways and God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We will misinterpret scripture everytime when we lean to our own sinful understanding/interpretation/s.
This is the problem, prideful man wants to put God in a box hence the reason we have so many different denominations, so many different beliefs and/or religeons.
There is only 1 God 1 creator 1 redeemer

Again, I respectfully disagree.  Scripture was written by fallible men.  Fallible men wrote the scripture.  It did not write itself.

There is no ONE INTERPRETATION.  That's a fantasy that is used as a club to force people to bend to one interpretation.
As it is writting:

Ephesians 4:5-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

This is what Christians believe and we do not dispute this.

Non-Christians dispute this as truth simply based on his/her on interpretation and observation.
The Bible (God's word) is clear you can not know Jesus as the Christ or as God if the Holy Spirit (God) does not teach you.

John 6:43-45
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. 'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

So it is clear to Christians why some have not believed yet!
It is clear why we do not agree on spiritual matters.
Simply put:
Non-Christians lean to their own understanding
Christians lean on the instruction of the Holy Spirit (God)

HM

Your understanding of God the Father is born in the interpretive words of man, written in the Bible. 

How do you know those inspirational words come from God and not some demon that's running the show?

[Hustle Man]

Evidence, evidence, evidence?

Which part do you want evidence for?

[Deedee]

...worry sooo much about what Christians believe?

Mostly they don't.  This is a religious debate board, so it's all wide open for discussion, when people get bored of talking politics or weight training, or doing what they're supposed to be doing, i.e. working. 

If only Christian believers posted here it would just be one long devotionals thread.  Before you got here, STella used to have a learning thread where all kinds of religions were discussed.  Technically, we could can discuss astrology or wicca or any number of beliefs if we were so inclined.

btw... it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace.  I think you're missing out on what many individuals who may not be like you, have to offer.

[Hustle Man]

Oh, I disagree with you on this one.  Free labor is quite an inducement.  Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution. 

We are flesh and blood.  This is where Christianity is decadent.  It decays living in this life.  The important place is the afterlife.Again, I respectfully disagree.  Scripture was written by fallible men.  Fallible men wrote the scripture.  It did not write itself.

There is no ONE INTERPRETATION.  That's a fantasy that is used as a club to force people to bend to one interpretation.
As it is writting:Your understanding of God the Father is born in the interpretive words of man, written in the Bible. 

How do you know those inspirational words come from God and not some demon that's running the show?

Oh, I disagree with you on this one.  Free labor is quite an inducement.  Slaves were categorized as a quasi-human in our US Constitution.

 

Are you referring to Article IV sec II? America was not founded on slavery!

We are flesh and blood.

I agree

This is where Christianity is decadent.It decays living in this life.

Please clarify how Christianity is decadent and decays living in this life?

BTW I disagree
True Christianity promotes living life and living it more abundantly
Giving of one's self
Honoring parents
Obeying authorities
Respect for another’s property
Marital fidelity
Abstinence (until marriage).
True Christianity promotes all that is good for mankind to prosper and live in peace with one another.

The Non Christian view point is rooted in
Selfish gain
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for parents
Unfair treatment of women and children
Disrespect for another's property  
The perpetuation of promiscuous behavior
Non-Christians teach take what you want and in many cases by any means necessary.
  
  

Again, I respectfully disagree.  Scripture was written by fallible men.  Fallible men wrote the scripture.  It did not write itself.

No, God used fallible men to pen his inspired words, read
2 Timothy 3:16

The important place is the afterlife

This is the reward; the Christian’s life is lived to glorify God by serving Christ.

Tell me in what way is Christianity responsible for the following?
Killing and Raping women
War abroad
Discrimination
Racism
Money Laundering
Every conceivable vice in America (Porn, gambling, drugs and alcohol abuse)
This is humanism (Every dog for himself)

How can that be blamed on Christianity?
The way I see it Christianity is the way to break those chains, do you disagree?

See Non-Christians will never hold themselves accountable for the corruptions I have listed above.
Non-Christians love to deal in darkness and so do some Christians but there is a difference. Neither is right don't get me wrong but there is a difference in the motivation and after thought.

HM

[Hustle Man]

Mostly they don't.  This is a religious debate board, so it's all wide open for discussion, when people get bored of talking politics or weight training, or doing what they're supposed to be doing, i.e. working. 

If only Christian believers posted here it would just be one long devotionals thread.  Before you got here, STella used to have a learning thread where all kinds of religions were discussed.  Technically, we could can discuss astrology or wicca or any number of beliefs if we were so inclined.

btw... it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace.  I think you're missing out on what many individuals who may not be like you, have to offer.

Yes I understand what you meant about this being a discussion board and that is ok but I was responding to the name calling mocking etc that takes place on here.

it makes me sad that you feel only Christian believers promote peace, love and grace.

Again I was referring to the mockery present on this board by some who are non-believers I should have clarified but I was trying to keep my post short sorry.

I know that many folk promote peace, love and grace! I also know that the inverse of those 3 attributes have been perped by many so called Christians as well as non-believers. So I get what you are saying Deedee, please forgive me for mis-stating.

[Hedgehog]

Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!

How can you write something like that? I am an atheist, and I like to believe that I promote peace and love. How do you know I am not? And if you take a known Atheist like Bob Geldof, who promoted Live Aid and Band Aid that saved thousands of lives, compare him with a known Christian like George W Bush. How can you say that Bob Geldof is less of a promotor of peace and love than what George W Bush is?

Non-believers mock and attack our belief.
Some would say that Christians do the same with Atheists and Muslims, and other religions.

Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.
Seems like it is you having trouble accepting that there are other beliefs than yours.

The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)
So if child molester, a pedophile, even if it was Adolf Hitler or whoever, they will not have to pay the price for their "sins". As long as they believe?

You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.
Why are you better equipped than Christians in the past?

Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32
What gave the "missionaries" the right to intervene in the worshipping practices of these grown adults?
Why weren't their religion respected?

HM

[Decker]

Are you referring to Article IV sec II? America was not founded on slavery!

Slavery was a foundational aspect of a large part of the US.  It almost destroyed the union.  So I disagree with your protest.
 

I agree
Please clarify how Christianity is decadent and decays living in this life?

Heaven is number one.  Getting there is the task.  Some imagined place takes precedent over the real world. 

BTW I disagree
True Christianity promotes living life and living it more abundantly
Giving of one's self
Honoring parents
Obeying authorities
Respect for another’s property
Marital fidelity
Abstinence (until marriage).
True Christianity promotes all that is good for mankind to prosper and live in peace with one another.

Some of those are decent qualities and some are not.  I guess it really depends on the person, time and place involved in the analysis.

The Non Christian view point is rooted in
Selfish gain
Disrespect for authority
Disrespect for parents
Unfair treatment of women and children
Disrespect for another's property 
The perpetuation of promiscuous behavior
Non-Christians teach take what you want and in many cases by any means necessary.

You've just described, almost to a T, the current moral climate of america.  Acquisition is king, Personal gain, fame, money, comfortable wealth are all the values held highest in the USA.  
  

No, God used fallible men to pen his inspired words, read
2 Timothy 3:16
This is the reward; the Christian’s life is lived to glorify God by serving Christ.

You're using the source itself to prove the truth of your assertion that the Bible is infallible?  That's not helpful.  I have tattooed on my chest that I'm a love god.  I know I am.  It's written on my chest.  I joke but you do understand my point?

Tell me in what way is Christianity responsible for the following?
Killing and Raping women
War abroad
Discrimination
Racism
Money Laundering
Every conceivable vice in America (Porn, gambling, drugs and alcohol abuse)
This is humanism (Every dog for himself)

How can that be blamed on Christianity?

Someone convinced of the absolute authority and truth of their own perspective is capable of any monstrosity.

Humanism is not every dog for himself.  Our society is one of laws predicated on a social contract.  That's a product of humanism. 

The way I see it Christianity is the way to break those chains, do you disagree?

See Non-Christians will never hold themselves accountable for the corruptions I have listed above.
Non-Christians love to deal in darkness and so do some Christians but there is a difference. Neither is right don't get me wrong but there is a difference in the motivation and after thought.

HM

I try not to mindread when it comes to analyzing people.  I don't see christians any better suited to handle life than a secular humanist relying on his sense of treating others as they'd like to be treated.  (an oversimplification of course).

[bebop396]

Not athiests, but deists, which was the atheism of the day. Many of the founders were quite scornful and condescending towards Christianity. Observe Jefferson:
 

 
 

Thanks for the info, interesting

[Hustle Man]

Non-believers are not promoting grace, peace and love in this day and age or in the past!

How can you write something like that? I am an atheist, and I like to believe that I promote peace and love. How do you know I am not? And if you take a known Atheist like Bob Geldof, who promoted Live Aid and Band Aid that saved thousands of lives, compare him with a known Christian like George W Bush. How can you say that Bob Geldof is less of a promotor of peace and love than what George W Bush is?

I thought I cleared this up with my post to DeeDee. BTW I never said anything about GW Bush or anything against Bob Geldof.

Non-believers mock and attack our belief.

Some would say that Christians do the same with Atheists and Muslims, and other religions.

This is true

Non-believers do not promote the peace, love, grace and mercy found in Christ!
Actually non-believers are the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.

Seems like it is you having trouble accepting that there are other beliefs than yours.

No, I understand and fully accept that there are other beliefs than mine.

The gospel (Good News) of Christ Jesus, is that we (believers) do not have to feel guilty anymore, we do not have to pay for our sins; Jesus has already paid the price and we have faith in the finished work on the cross. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS (Gospel)

So if child molester, a pedophile, even if it was Adolf Hitler or whoever, they will not have to pay the price for their "sins". As long as they believe?

I know from a humanistic stand point this seems to be unfair especially to the victim but I must say this is Jesus and what he has done for all whom believe. He paid the price for past present and future sins of sinners. If a sinner turns from his ways (Repents he will be saved, remember the whore who was about to be stoned? Jesus told her "go and sin no more" it's that easy. You pointed out haneous crimes and a horrible person which we all agree on but the power of the finished work on the cross can save anyone from any sin accept for one-blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

You can not deny/dispute the motivation of the Christian missionary charge or its impact to the world over the past century. It is true in times past that the religious missionary M.O. (mainly Catholicism) was not necessarily motivated by the truth of Rom 1
it was some what selfish and prideful but we (present day believers) are better equipped to relay or convey the truth in Christ.

Why are you better equipped than Christians in the past?

Because Christians in the Common Era 29AD did not have the canon of scripture or the completed word of God and Jesus even said that those that came after him would do greater works than he did. see John 14:12-13

Those so called savages were worshipping the creation not the creator.
The missionaries were trying to correct improper worship of the God they (the so called savages) already knew existed.
See: Romans 1:18-32

What gave the "missionaries" the right to intervene in the worshipping practices of these grown adults?
Why weren't their religion respected?

The missionaries were following the charge of Christ and obeying what is called the "Great Commision" see Matthew 28:16-20

HM

[Hustle Man]

Slavery was a foundational aspect of a large part of the US.  It almost destroyed the union.  So I disagree with your protest.

Slavery was one of many economic catalysts which help build the US. Again I don't see slavery as as foundation for anything BUT to bring the gospel to a people (the African) no matter how painful it may seem to be but God allowed it to happen. I know that may be a tough pill to swallow for many but God works in mysterious ways far beyond our comprehension.

Heaven is number one.  Getting there is the task.  Some imagined place takes precedent over the real world.

 
 
Heaven is the final destination of those that belong to Christ Jesus. The requirement for getting there was accomplished by Christ on the cross

Some of those are decent qualities and some are not.  I guess it really depends on the person, time and place involved in the analysis.

Which are not decent qualities?

You've just described, almost to a T, the current moral climate of america.  Acquisition is king, Personal gain, fame, money, comfortable wealth are all the values held highest in the USA.

The humanist pays homage to those temporal material things and this type of idolatry is the decay in America not Christianity.
Remember the story about the rich young ruler? Luke 18:18-25


  

You're using the source itself to prove the truth of your assertion that the Bible is infallible?  That's not helpful.  I have tattooed on my chest that I'm a love god.  I know I am.  It's written on my chest.  I joke but you do understand my point?

But we all know that is not truth 
Seriously, I can't prove God physically but the desire in me to serve and worship the God of the OT/NT is on going and I cannot turn away from him; I am in his grip! God says that he drew me to him and that I can never resist the drawing power of the Holy Spirit. No I can not explain it, it's supernatural for sure it has to be. see John 6 37, 44 & 65 & Rom 9:19b

Someone convinced of the absolute authority and truth of their own perspective is capable of any monstrosity.

True if that person is trying to walk in the flesh and in the spirit at the same time. Terrible place to be, straddling the fence like that.

Humanism is not every dog for himself.  Our society is one of laws predicated on a social contract.  That's a product of humanism.

  No answer for that.

I try not to mindread when it comes to analyzing people.  I don't see christians any better suited to handle life than a secular humanist relying on his sense of treating others as they'd like to be treated.  (an oversimplification of course).

Yes over-simplified but who said Christians are better suited to handle life? I think the difference is how Christians and non-Christian view their fellow man. We look at everyone as God's handy work even if they are inhumane to us and that is because we are trying to be obedience to Jesus's commands. I think the Humanist would not handle it the same way and definetly not from the same perspective.

It's in the bible about how we should treat those made in God's image but I can't find it right now. But this is close enough.

Hebrews 12:14 & Hebrews 13:1