The Great Oral Debate: Anadrol vs. Dianabol By Gavin Kane...Good article

[Van_Bilderass]

Why is that?   

I heard when you take liver protection along with your oral cycle, it reduces gains....

It was based on some pretty weak theoretical evidence. I doubt anyone has noticed reduced gains from the combo (?).

As far as the best liver protection when running orals, ursodesoxycholic acid looks like it might be the best - on paper. Hard to know without studies, but it's used to treat cholestasis and bile build-up which is what orals can cause. The antioxidants and glutathione boosters and bitter herbs won't hurt but hard to know if they help protect your liver when cycling.

[Van_Bilderass]

I saw this study on Essentiale Forte and steroid users

1: Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2007 Aug 30;:1-10
Multivitamins and phospholipids complex protects the hepatic cells from androgenic-anabolic-steroids-induced toxicity.

Introduction. Androgenic-anabolic-steroids (AAS)-induced hepatotoxicity typically occurs with C-17 alkylated oral agents abused by exercising individuals at clinically recommended doses. Injectable compounds appear to have the same risk for hepatotoxicity, but are applied in doses three to six times higher than clinically recommended. AAS users occasionally try to avoid the well-known hepatotoxic effects associated with the abuse of a multitude of AAS agents, by using the pharmaceutical agent compound N a phospholipid/vitamin preparation. Primary Objective. The investigation of the actual hepatoprotective effect of compound N against AAS-induced toxicity. Methodology. This was an observational cohort study of 320 athletes; 160 were AAS users and the other 160 were not abusing any substances. Of the 160 users, 44 were using AAS and compound N (group A), and 116 were using solely AAS (group B). The 160 athletes abstaining from substances abuse acted as controls (group C). All athletes were tested for alterations in serum levels of hepatic enzymes. Enzyme levels before the study's onset and after the end of the 8-week AAS regimes were compared among the three groups, in order to delineate the hepatoprotective effect of compound N. Results. Prior to our research all groups showed normal values in all enzymes except creatine kinase (CK). After the 8-week period, CK levels were slightly lower in group A, but without variation in Groups B and C; gamma-Glutamyl Transferase (gammaGT) levels remained normal. Groups A and C had no elevations in any of the enzymes, except CK, while in group B all enzymes' values were elevated above the normal range. The only factor differentiating AAS users in group A from those in group B was the use of compound N, thus the results being suggestive of the compound's detoxification effect. The severity of AAS abuse was positively associated with the degree of changes (Delta values) in all measured enzymes except gammaGT and CK. Conclusions. Previous suggestions that serum hepatic enzyme elevations in exercising AAS abusers are connected to muscle fiber damage rather than the abuse itself, are contradicted by our results. Since all AAS abusing athletes were prone to exhibit elevations in enzymes' values, the mean values of group A were to be similar to those observed in group B, exceeding normal values. The group hepatic enzyme values of group B were significantly higher than the group C (control). Notably, group A did not have any statistically significant difference in the hepatic enzyme values compared to group C. The effect of exercise on these enzymes' elevations was ruled out by the comparability of training regimens and AAS toxicity was correlated to the severity of AAS abuse.

Here's the product:
http://www.amazon.com/Essentiale-Forte-N-30-Capsules/dp/B000EE9GFM

[Overload]

Why is that?   

I heard when you take liver protection along with your oral cycle, it reduces gains....

Not sure about that.

I have never seen proof that taking Liv 52 with orals made it any safer. i have been under the impression that Liv 52 is best when taken after the orals are done with. But i could be wrong.

A friend of mine in Med school refers to Liv 52 as "PCT for your liver" after a cycle...kind of makes sense.

[Emmortal]

Not sure about that.

I have never seen proof that taking Liv 52 with orals made it any safer. i have been under the impression that Liv 52 is best when taken after the orals are done with. But i could be wrong.

A friend of mine in Med school refers to Liv 52 as "PCT for your liver" after a cycle...kind of makes sense.

I've always taken it while on orals and for two weeks after orals are done.  It's never hurt anything and never effected gains at all so never really thought anything negative of it.

[4thAD]

yep I agree with E, I run it while on the orals and then even when the orals are done. I have not noticed any lack of gains while running liv-52.

[Overload]

Yeah i don't really think it hurts anything, we all just have our own protocols.

[4thAD]

Yeah i don't really think it hurts anything, we all just have our own protocols.

Oh absolutely. I have never seen proof that it makes orals any safer either, so I agree with you also. It makes sense as a pct for your liver though. I just run it pretty much the whole cycle, even front load before cycle starts.

[SHUTUPANDTRAIN]

I saw this study on Essentiale Forte and steroid users

Here's the product:
http://www.amazon.com/Essentiale-Forte-N-30-Capsules/dp/B000EE9GFM

Is it good to run both of these at the sAme time:

Essentiale Forte N 30 Capsules & Liv. 52 or is the Liv. 52 good enough???

[rccs]

Is it good to run both of these at the sAme time:

Essentiale Forte N 30 Capsules & Liv. 52 or is the Liv. 52 good enough???

How can I get Liv52? In Europe.

[Meso_z]

How can I get Liv52? In Europe.

Ask your local pharmacy. 

[rccs]

Ask your local pharmacy. 

I usually run Legalon, but I am willing to give it a try with Liv52. What is the daily dose?

[johnpapas]

I don't know how you react to Liv52 but it does some great things to me.Positive and negative.

Whenever my liver hurts when on AAS Liv52 takes the pain away in a few days.

I had done the following cycle with Liv52 with great success and without any issues concerning my liver health.

1-4 100mg Drol/d,1g Test E/w
5-8 100mg Dbol/d,1g Primo/w

Liv52 was ran throught the whole cycle.Had zero liver pain and after a month i did some blood work.Everything was back to normal.

Liv52 and Milk Thistle does hurt MY gains always.

I didn't know what was going wrong at first.I was taking from 50mg Dbol to 100mg Drol and thought the source was bad.

After doing the same cycles with and without liver protect i found out what was the problem.

When i was taking liver protect was like taking only 5mg of Dbol.I could hardly see any gains coming.I dropped the liver protect and gains skyrocket.

I would suggest to run a normal amount of orals for 4-6 weeks at around 50mg without liver protect and then continue with injectables as Test which is rather safe at least for your liver.

By the way never tried the combo of Drol/Dbol,but for me 25mg of Drol is like 25mg of Dbol.Don't find any significant difference in gains.